Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Boy, Steve, I hope you don't live close to any large bodies of water
    and know any women who work with cement!  ;-)
    
    I remember a line from a song with a message that went something 
    like "We need women to sew the buttons on our britches, but, if we 
    didn't have women, we wouldn't *need* britches."
    
    If not for procreation, we would only need one sex.  As far as
    contributions to the world, it wouldn't matter, if there were only
    one sex, then we wouldn't know the difference.  We could all be
    like earthworms, asexual.
    
    The situation: there was never more than one sex
    	is different from:
    the situation: let's get rid of women (God forbid)
    
    The question is too heavy for my feeble mind to handle.  I don't
    even want to touch 'recreation'.
    
    Spence

re: .0
>    As adult males ... except for procreation and recreation ...
>    
>    ? WHY do we *need* women to exist in this _modern_ world ???

Hmm...they're probably the only reason why we haven't destroyed
the whole kit'n'kaboodle already!

In fact, darned if i can see why (if?) THEY *need* Men to exist
in this _modern_ (bio-tech, cloning, artificial insemination, etc.)
world!

		don't_eagles_get_tired_of_rehetorical_questions_^?^
			;^)

    I think that people need other people. I think that everyone
    needs some one special person to make them complete. Well,
    maybe there are exceptional people who can be happy alone
    but basically humans are a social creature. Generally the
    other person for a man is a woman but not always.
    
    At the risk of stereotyping, it appears that most men need
    nurturing. Someone to care about and for them. Most women need
    to care for and about someone else. This forms a natural bond
    that serves to make both people happier. This is an over simplification.
    Also these roles are sometimes adopted in the other order. 
    Sometimes people in a couple switch these roles as circumstances
    require. Finding the right mix and adaptability of these roles
    is what makes a relationship work.
    
    Sex, either for recreation or procreation, is often only a very
    small part of a long lived relationship.
    
    		Alfred

    re.0
    Amen.

	Who would put their arms around me, tell me "it's ok honey"
	and kiss me lightly on the forehead, everytime I burst into 
	tears?

Richard.
(I'll cripple the first bloke who steps forward)

    Why women?, because a guy can only stay drunk for so long.....
    
    

Aw, guys..you just didn't want to say it....

Because we're....

Admirable, Bewitching, Companionable, Delighful, Elegant, Fascinating,
Graceful, Humorous, Intellectual, Joyful, Kind, Loving, Mystical, 
Notable, Outstanding, Perfect, Quaint, Remarkable, Significant, True,
Undeniable, Venturesome, Wonderful, (we have) X-chromosomes, 
(you have) Y-chromosomes, and Zealous.......

;-)

kathie 
    

    hey bird dude 
    what have wimmen got to do with PC's ?
    

    I can't quantify it, or describe it even, but when I'm
    involved with a woman I feel more alive. My energy
    level rises, I have more initiative, more sense
    of purpose. The best sort of addiction. 

re: .11, .12

Ladies, no arguments from this side.... it is refreshing to see that some
people actually have some modest sense of their own contributions to the
world...

as an aside... I was reading a study somewhere (no sources, sorry..) that
claimed that men were actually more emotional than women.  We don't show it as
much (leading to all sorts of physical ailments...), but according to this
study, we are indeed more emotional..  

                        - Tom

    
         Women are alright, dey just got too many moving parts.
    
                                 Bubba
    

    Re .0, maybe you *don't* need women to exist.  But, so what?  That
    doesn't mean we don't have a right to exist!  Do you think that
    the only "things" that exist on the planet are things that human
    males might "need"?  My, how self-centered.
    
    Lorna
    

>    Men left to themselves might never mow a lawn or paint screens!

Sure they would.  Especially if they realized that there would never 
be a woman in their lives to do it for them.  Same goes for cleaning, 
cooking, sewing, interior decorating.  Hey, I LIKE stemware (I have 
two sets) with my Mobil Celtics glasses (I have 4 of them).    :{)

>    Maybe the "make the world nicer" effect begins with wanting to
>    please someone whose "expectations" are higher than our own ???

Yup.  Two men can do it.  Two women can do it.  And, I SUPPOSE a man 
and a woman can do it!  :{)

This is a strange topic to me.  After asking the question "why 
women?", the only answer I can come up with is...because they're 
people too!


						--Gerry

re .23:

>>    Men left to themselves might never mow a lawn or paint screens!
>
>Sure they would.  Especially if they realized that there would never 
>be a woman in their lives to do it for them.  Same goes for cleaning, 
>cooking, sewing, interior decorating.  

The tasks listed are not sex dependant so what difference does it make if 
there is only one sex or not?

Dave.

        Even if one does enjoy the sound of one hand clapping,
        you can only listen to the same thing for so long before
        you get bored with it.  (Some people longer than others...)
        
        R

    To quote uncle Ronny " Well, I don't know "
    
    
     But in actuality, my thoughts are that having a good woman 
     in my life helps me to be a better and more complete person.
     True I have a few men friends to kick things around and shoot
     the s**t with and theres even been some very intense conversations.
     But I know that I can only share a true intimate relationship 
     with a woman. To reference .11 and .12, yup theres the good and
     the bad of it in all of them. I suppose thats what makes them so
     interesting.
    
     But back to .11 ....> " perfect " .. ???????? are you serious ?..:-)
     Back to .0  > " recreational sex " ... What woman do you know thats
     into that ???? Ide like to meet her ........ ;-), reason being
     I don't believe that such a female exists.
    
                                            Bob B
    

    
     Oh ya I forgot to mention this , but the big problem has 
     been finding a good woman that gets along with me. Theres 
     times that I think that that she dosent exsist and coments 
     such as the author of .0 are valid. Any takers to prove that
     thery wrong ????  
    
                              Bob B

    re .30
    
    Believe me, Bob, such a woman does exist.  But I doubt if
    you want to meet her, given the pain she has brough into
    the lives of others....
    
    sigh.
    
    

    I'm curious about the definition of "recreational sex".  Sounds
    interesting to me. 8-)
    
    1) Is this someone who is promiscuous?  
    2) Is it a nymphomaniac?
    3) Is this someone who enjoys sex just for the sheer pleasure of
    	it without trying to make babies?
    
    I choose #3 and I can think of several who would fit the description.
    Don't ask me to name any of them.  
    
    I can think of some who fit #1 also.  I don't know of any #2's though.
    
    Spence

    
         Recreational Sex is making love on horseback.
    
                        Bubba
    

    Because men can not live with us and can not live without us.
    An old saying I was once told:  Men might rule the world (or believe
    they do) but *WOMAN* rule men.
    
    Jude
    

    re.37 
    women "rule" everything
    
    Nothing is ever good enough for them.
    

    RE .33
    
      I think Ive already met a few, the type that have multiple
      person male harems, and has little if no regard for peoples
      feelings. I believe this is what your referring to, yet Ive never
      met anyone that thought of it as recreation, maybe thats a touch
      too crude.
    
                                            Bob B

    Because we need you guys.

    Re: .43
    
    Generalizing again, aren't we, Eagles?
    
    				Steve

    re. 40??
    steve,
    constant complaining about the same thing wears a little thin with
    me, especially when you dont'try to fix it!


    
    kelly_doesnt_mind_listening_to_the_"same old thing"_when_people
    _arent_paralyzed_

    .41
    
    
    
    Not a personal "harem" so to speak.  Just one night of physical
    pleasure, knowing that her partner was involved with someone else,
    and not caring.  Her own selfishness brought a lot of pain to the
    lives of others.  Although in all fairness, both individuals are
    responsible.
    
    Enough.  I'm just speaking out of bitterness.  "Recreational sex"
    has some very painful overtones to it....
    
    

    Steve, 
    The topic itself is heavy and I'm not sure that I understand the
    question.  Maybe others have the same feeling.
    
    To list all of the valuable contributions that women have made to
    the world would take all remaining disk space on this system.
    
    In an attempt to answer what I think the question is, I have to
    put myself into a society where there are only men, no women.  I
    wouldn't like it.  To me, a woman is a difference.  She is something
    that I'm not.  She is something that I don't totally understand
    and she intrigues me.  She is interesting.  I've often wondered
    why I'm attracted to women and not men and I think its from being
    brought up to think that I'm *supposed* to be attracted to women
    and not men.  When I see a beautiful woman, my heart does flip flops
    and I get a lump in my throat.  When I see a handsome man, I don't
    give him a second glance.  Vive la difference!
    
    To say that we need women to cook our meals, sew our clothes, pick
    up after us, etc. is fallacy.  I cook, sew, knit, crochet, do dishes,
    sweep, etc.  If I couldn't, then I could find a man who could. 
    I suppose we don't even need women for sex.  We don't even need
    other *people* for sex.  We *do* need them for procreation, but
    I'm not interested in that.  Is that like buying a brand new truck
    and then leaving it parked in the garage? ;-)
                                                  
    That's about as close as I can come to what I think the answer should
    be.  Is this what you had in mind?
    
    Spence

    Back to the question and I'll try to address it as seriously as
    possible.
    
    It may be sexist for me to regard women as generally displaying
    personality differences from men.  But that is my view,  and
    I would feel hard put to do without those differences.
    
    There are only two possibilities I can envisage that
    makes my experience of women different from men.  These
    are either that sexuality influences interactions whether
    or not there is any overt sexual event or clear sexual
    signalling,  or that women naturally offer me something
    else as simply people that men don't.
    
    It certainly appears that somehow women *relate to me (* as in
    "be with" rather than "promote a relationship") in a way
    that men generally don't.

    I could try to analyse my interactions with women and
    divide them into sexual,  asexual and grey area categories,
    and I would find that in any absolute terms,  only
    an extremely small number of the women I have ever met
    would not fall in to the grey area.
    
    Now when I say grey area,  I mean that sexual drive cannot
    either be said to have affected or not have affected the
    two people interacting.
    
    But my experience of sharing of the selves (as people)
    with women has generally been deeper and takes place
    much more readily,  as compared to men.
    
    Has anyone else experienced this?

    Simon.

    re .53
    
    Yep!  That is certainly true.

    You know that gives me another thought.  The mere fact that
    the area is grey seems to be partly the fact that women
    tend to promote this greyness,  whether intentionally
    or as a result of this "difference in personality".

    I seem to have developed this "grey relating" initial
    approach myself - maybe I learnt it from women,  I don't
    know.  Of course it's a good approach anyway - if a man is
    interested a woman then neither confirming nor denying
    a sexual interest can create an interest or fascination
    in itself,  which can create the incentive to further develop 
    the relating.  (Definitely a woman's tack I agree with).

    And a "grey" can stay and flourish into a friendship very easily,
    irrespective of anything else.

    I think some cases where a less aware man has felt that a woman
    has "led him on",  may be no more than the fact that
    the woman was deliberately staying in the grey,  pending
    further decision,  and decided later that they preferred after all
    to decide against.  And the man interpreted it the wrong
    way instead of the neutral way.  Perhaps he even influenced
    the negative decision because he couldn't stay in the "grey"
    himself,  and so created the no-no warning signals in the woman
    who still wanted the comfortable,  rewarding grey responses.
    
    Then again,  compatibility often thrives on a match between
    in-front-of- and behind-the- screen traits,  as Robin Skynner
    and John Cleese point out in "Families and how to survive them".

    Simon.

    The last few notes ring true to me, too -- for almost as long as
    I can remember, most of my good friends have been men, not other
    women. Women's friendships tend to be suffocating and possessive.
    Sometimes I want to scream "Can't we stop relating and working and
    revealing our deepest secrets and just be friends for a while????"
    Men, on the other hand, tend to want to do things or talk about
    issues and events. 
    
    I suspect this difference is cultural rather than anything inherent in
    the biology of the species, but the combination of caring and energy
    that happens in a good mixed-sex group (say a bowling league or
    a church group) is something that's hard to beat.
    
    As for the 'grey area' -- my perception of that wide area of valued
    and not overtly sexual friendships and working relations is that
    both man and woman acknowledge the other's sexual existence. There is
    no attempt to pretend that neither of us has sexual urges, but there
    is an almost overt agreement that we aren't going to follow through
    on those urges if they happen to inlcude the other person. 
    
    Many women I know disagree with this. They see it as sexist if a man
    they work with seems aware that they are female. But I'm a woman, and I
    like being a woman, and I see no reason to hide the fact or pretend my
    sexuality doesn't exist.  There are many areas where it isn't a
    relevant piece of information -- neither womb nor male organs is a
    requirement for writing software documentation! But there aren't any
    areas where it isn't true. 
    
    --bonnie

    God created earth...then God created man...man was bored to death...
    so along came Eve and the rest is history...