Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    YES, I HAVE experienced it, and it resulted in a very depressing and 
    bitter divorce.  
    
    Take him aside and explain these things to him, see what he says 
    consider the words he says and decide if you want to continue with 
    things from there.  
    
    It's all I can suggest.  
    
    In my own experience, I found that although she said, "Yes, I do love
    you and my actions should prove it' the desire to be TOLD once in a 
    while, made a big difference in the relationship.   
    
    It finally ended up with the divorce, oh there were other things
    mixed in with this, but this was the one thing more then anything 
    else in the relationship that caused us to start breaking up.
    
    Skip

  Telling him the truth about how you feel is your best ally in the long
  run. I know, I know, easy to say, hard to do; But not telling the truth
  (or withholding the truth) is not doing him or you any favors, it can
  only cause harm in the long run. Working through the feelings by talking
  about them with him is what it takes to get on with life. I've gone
  through this process a couple of times and although it gets easier, I
  doubt it will ever be a completely "easy" thing for me to do. 

  Relationships are hard work. Often they are VERY hard work. It would be
  nice if there was an 'easy fix' but just letting him know your true
  feelings (once) and hoping "things would somehow fall into place" is not
  going to work. Telling him your true feelings over and over again will
  help get things moving. This may stress the relationship to the point
  where it ends or it may improve it. Either way, I suspect that's better
  than having it stay stuck. 

>    When I say intimate I
>    mean that we do not express or say what we feel to eachother in regards
>    to our  relationship .
    
>    Have any of you experienced this?   

  I don't know of anyone who has not experienced this in some/most/all
  relationships to some degree. There is only ONE person who I consider to
  be healthy when it comes to relationships. I dated her for a while but
  she was too healthy for me at the time so I left and found someone who
  was more dysfunctional [grin]. I'm better (not cured), but it's taken a
  few years and a lot of HARD work to get here. And there is more work to
  do. The only way out is through. 

    Rick

    re:.0
    
    You need to talk about this with your partner.
    
    There are a million things that could be wrong, you need to find out
    what the problem is, and only he can tell you.

    
    Be completely honest with him.
    
    If YOUR needs aren't getting met, the relationship is not working the
    way it has to for you to be fulfilled.
    
    Talk with him.  Maybe visit a counselor or something?
    
    If he cannot meet your needs, perhaps the relationship is not meant to
    be.  Love should not involve such compromise that intimacy becomes
    hollow or fear-inducing.
    
    I know it's tough to think about it, and may be tougher to do it - but
    if it's not addressed now, you will *certainly* not feel any better
    needing to address it later.  And it probably won't just go away by
    itself.
    
    -Jody
    

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				Steve






Dear Anon,

 Ouch!!! This one hits too close to home...

 I can't offer too much advice, only a sympathetic ear by way of company.

 I am in a very similar situation right now. There is a subtle difference 
because the "I love you's" are spoken from both sides but otherwise the 
situation is very much the same. We have been together for more than 2 years 
now and there are no signs that the relationship will progress to a more 
"intimate" level.

 In my relationship, both of us are basically insecure people with low self 
esteem. She has some unresolved issues from her past that she brings forward 
as the reason for "holding back". Knowing only that, most people say "why 
continue the relationship?" but occasionally she is able to break through
and I feel very close to her. Unfortunately, it doesn't take long for her to 
withdraw back into her shell.

 She is not the only cause of the "problem". Again, unfortunately, I am 
insecure enough to pull back when I sense her withdrawing. I have a very 
difficult time opening up my personal feelings to people (any people) so you 
might imagine how difficult it is for me to open up to someone who draws me 
into intimacy then pushes me back at arm's length. I don't believe she does
this intentionally, if I did, the relationship would have ended long ago.

 I love her very much and I really believe she feels the same about me. We
have talked about this situation many many many times, for hours on end. 
Sometimes we will pass away an entire evening, hardly realizing we have been
talking for 5 or 6 hours about our situation. All of this gets to be very
tiresome, I think because we are always looking at the past and present,
never at the future.

 We live in a world where we are taught that everything is supposed to be 
either predictable or calculable so it is very difficult to decide on how 
much effort, time and pain we can endure in the unpredictable matters of the 
heart. Everybody has their own theory on what to do or say. The one thing 
most everybody can agree on is relationships take a lot of work, or at least 
the healthy and lasting ones do. 

 My free advice, if you decide that you want the acorns in the tree, you 
have three choices, you can climb up the tree and pick them off, you can 
shake the tree or you can wait for them to fall when they are ready. It all
depends on how badly you want them, how much time you have spend and how
much pain you can endure if you fall.

 I do have a question though. Is it the fact that he doesn't say "I love
you" that bothers you or is it that lack of intimacy? To me they are two
different things. Anybody who can communicate can say "I love you" but it
takes somebody with a heart to show the love in meaningful ways. Getting him 
to say those three words will probably be a easier than getting him to stand 
behind the meaning of those three words.

 One last comment, (I promise!) don't try to "tune out", ignore or hide
the way you feel. No matter how strong you feel, the problems will always
be in the back of your mind struggling to be resolved. There *will* come a
day when you are too weak to fight it back and once you have realized that
you lost the battle to fight it back, you will also start to feel helpless
about the situation.


Someone who is there now...

    
    	Re .0 -
    
    	It's clear to me that him "saying how he feels" doesnt just come
    naturally to this man - it's a problem that lots of men have, partly
    because they probably never had a good model for it during their childhood
    development.
    
    	Intimacy dysfunction is *commonly* an artifact of being raised in a
    dysfunctional family - where one did not get their age appropriate
    developmental needs met and where one did not have healthy negotiating,
    communication and intimacy modeled for them by their parents' behavior.
    
    	I wonder, do you know anything about this man's history? Where
    does he come from? How many brothers and sisters does he have? What
    was is father like? What was his parent's marriage/relationship
    like and what were the problems they faced as they worked to hold
    that together along with raising a family? What was it like being
    in that family - for him? Was he loved by his mother in the way
    he wanted to be loved?
    
    	One way that I've found to get to an improved level of intimacy
    with someone in a relationship, is to be very interested in the other 
    persons history; their childhood, their young adulthood.
    
    	I mean, on one hand, you might get a flat "I dont want to talk
    about it", on the other, you might "get it" that his father was the
    exact same way - and that led to his parent's eventual divorce -
    and that he never really got to grieve that particular event - and 
    he's really a pretty emotionally bound up guy - yet both realize 
    together that the very same thing is happening to *him, right now 
    with you*, that happened way back when in his parents marriage!
    
    	That could be a _very_ profound realization to come to, together.
    Certainly, one could see how doing so would untimately raise the
    level of intimacy you two share. Because it would be "your" discovery
    and I'm sure once realized, he would be able to express to you that
    outcome is not what he wants - and express to you what he does want
    in his relationship, ultimately, with you.
    
    	Hope this helps,
    
    	Joe

    In one relationship I had, after about 3 years I started noticing the
    emptiness, much as I tried to deny it (it's hard to pinpoint when the
    "nothing" happens!).  I too was afraid that asking about it would give
    me an answer I didn't want to hear, but I finally decided that the
    suspense of living in a suspect relationship was worse than the risk of
    losing him.
    
    One night I just announced that it was time for a "state of the union
    address", and guess what--my instincts were right, our relationship was
    OVER.  But he was tremendously relieved, because he'd been trying for
    months to summon the courage to have that talk.  He couldn't pinpoint
    what was wrong either, but in the end we were both happier to separate
    amicably (and we're still friends, ten years later).
    
    I think .5 was a good note, and it shows that the "state of the union
    address" may go on for years (if both are willing to stand under the
    tree that long).
    
    I also think .6 will probably be very valuable for you.
    
    My other thought was that you might want to read Debora(h?) Tannen's
    _You_Just_Don't_Understand_.  She has observed distinct communication
    differences between (most) men and (most) women.  For instance, many
    men come to a situation with a problem-solving hat on.  ("You want to
    know if I love you?  I love you.  Next question?")  They don't *get*
    that (many) women want the continuing conversation about it, the
    comfort of sharing verbal love, the connectedness of it.  These men are
    annoyed when, later, the woman mentions that she'd like to hear "I love
    you" more often; they feel that they've *solved* that problem, why does
    she need to have this conversation *again*?  She's such a nag!  Why
    can't she be happy with the flowers?!
    
    That may not be the situation with .0 at all, of course.  Just thought
    I'd mention it as a possibility.
    
    Leslie

    re.7
    
    You're talking about the 'logical domination' of the male psychi 
    verses the 'emotional domination' of the female psychi.
    
    Skip

    Some people have a hard time saying those three words. He shows his
    love for you in other ways though. Talk to him and tell him that you
    NEED to hear those nice things that make you feel good. If it is really
    not working, go see the counselor so she/he can give input.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    
    Lynne

    
    
    re the last two
    
    What might help each of you is if you sit down and actually
    list exactly what actions make you feel loved.  If you find that
    you really need to hear the words then that is at least a sign
    to him that if he can say them and really mean them that it
    is fulfilling your need.  You on the other hand have to do the
    same for him.  If to him simply a hug is sufficient to "say I love
    you". Then give him a hug and realize when he gives you one it is
    his way of saying the words without being verbal.   You each need
    to come to an understanding of what the other needs from each of
    you as far as this is concerned.  
    
    I tend to be a very touchy feely type of a person. So I get quite
    upset if the man I love is uncomfortable with hugs and holding hands
    as they make me feel loved.  This I know is something that is a need
    in me that must be met.  Not that the hugs have to come from just
    one source, but I can not be intimately involved with someone who
    is going to get upset if I give him a hug for no apparant reason.
    
    It might help if you both discuss what actions fulfill your intimacy
    needs.  At the very least it will make you more aware of what you
    are doing that might be blocking the intimacy you want to find.  
    You may be doing something that is very comfortable to you,but
    not as comfortable with him and he might just be unsure of how
    to tell you this without you feeling bad about it cause its something
    you enjoy.  He might feel if he does tell you this he will be depriving
    you of something you benefit from.  Then the guilt factor comes into
    play.  
    
    Define what you need and start from there.  Chances are he already
    knows what he needs but might not know that its ok to tell you.  You
    both might be subconciously afraid to tell the other.  
    

    There have been a few occaisions in the past when I just can't find the
    words to express how I feel when I was trying VERY HARD to talk....
    sometimes the ol' brain races with everything I want to say, but the
    mouth has a tendency to not shift out of "park".  One suggestion have,
    because it did help me to start the conversations going, is to write
    down what you want to say to him and then let him read how you feel
    in front of you.  When he's done reading, then put your mouth into gear
    and ask him what he's thinking.  I'm NOT saying write a letter and send
    it to him...you have to give it to him and be with him while he's
    reading it...comprende??  There have been a couple times in the past
    when that's all it took to get a reall good conversation going.
    
    Just a thought...
    
    Lynne