Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Hello Anonymous..
    
    It sounds to me like "eric" has been burned once too often.  That he's
    afraid of admitting to a commitment, although he already seems to have
    one since he spends so much time with you.  It also sounds like he
    feels that you moving in with him may be a bit of a commitment in
    itself.  Maybe his first step toword the "M" word, as many men call it.
    (-:
    
    This sounds all too familiar.  I've been with my fiance for the past
    three years.  While granted, I HAVE gotten the commitment that he will
    marry me, I haven't gotten him to actually settle on a timeframe to be
    married.  I keep getting that same line you get "We'll see how it works
    out".  In other words, I'm not committing to anything just yet.  He
    doesn't want to commit to a date untill we've been living together for
    a while.  Well, we're FINALLY moving in together this weekend, so I'm
    hoping to be able to work on getting a committment soon.  (Oh, and by
    the way, we've had the same type of conversations about leaving the cap
    of the toothpaste, can he handle my cats (four of them) etc.).
    
    My suggestion??  Make an agreement with him.  He knows that you want a
    committment from him, right??  Make an agreement that you will give it
    ONE year (or however amount of time you want).  If, after that
    timeframe, he STILL isn't ready for any type of commitment, then
    obviously he never will be and you'll need to go on with your life.  I
    realize that is going to be VERY difficult, but it may be the only
    solution.
    
    And as for "Women who love too much", it doesn't sound like it pertains
    to you at all.
    
    Take care!
    
    Holly
    

    
    	I think the book you want to read is "A Fine Romance" by Judith
    Sills. That gives a definitive indication of when it's appropriate
    for comittments to be made in the development of a Love relationship,
    while "Women Who Love Too Much" really does not address this.
    
    	It also gives a definitive indication of when "enough's enough",
    as far as one partner waiting for the other to make up his or her
    mind on comittment -
    
    	Using the terminology from that book, it seems he's stuck fast
    onto the "negotiation" stage - where you begin sorting out all the
    little nits and developing the agreements upon which the dynamics
    of the relationship will be based.
    
    	According to the author, each stage has a beginning and an end,
    upon which you get to move on to the next stage. A relationship
    can end at any one stage; for example if you could never work out
    things like "I golf on Saturday" and "We open presents on Xmas
    morning", the relationship could concievably never get past the
    negotiation stage.
    
    	It might not make it past the comittment stage, to marriage,
    either. Check it out - indications of "what's happening with him/her" 
    are given, as are examples of situations where it's time to end things,
    how you might do that, or indicate to your partner that is what
    you intend to do - without making it into a "threat".
    
    	Hope this helps you,
    
    	Joe

    Tell him to youknowwhat or get off the pot, he is playing with your
    time. As far at the "petty" things like leaving caps off of toothpaste,
    not breaking the spaghetti (that is a good one HAHAHAA) off etc, tell
    him to chill out and lighten up, no one is perfect, we all have little
    annoying thingies about us. If he wants someone who is not going to do
    them things tell him to marry a robot.  Ok flame off....tell him
    exactly how you stand, and how much he means to you and tell him to
    make a decision. 
    
    
    Make sure you break the spaghetti in half next time ;->
    
    
    
    Lynne

Anon,

No one should have to put up with what you have; though many of us do.  I think
you've been hurt by this Eric more than enough, and my gut reaction is to say
he's doing you a favour.  Keep the hell away from him.  Emotional abuse is just
as devastating, maiming etc as physical abuse.  Easier said than done, I know.
But do try to cut your loses now and don't let this man humiliate you further.

Break the spaghetti in half?!?  I know what I'd like to break, and it's not
pasta.

Chin up, you don't need him.

Joyce

    re:.0
    
    How old are each of you?

    Eric has no incentive to make a commitment - why should he, he is
    already getting from you everything he wants!
    
    It's time to start doing what YOU want and not what Eric wants.
    But don't make threats or ultimatums - do you really want him to
    commit to you when, deep inside, he doesn't want to?
    
    My suggestion is to suspend the relationship for a while and see
    how each of you feels after two or three months.  But my gut feel is
    that Eric is not going to undergo a magic transformation and that
    even if he suddenly falls all over himself to make the commitments
    you want, he'll be inwardly resentful that you "made him do it" and
    your life together will be decidedly unpleasant.
    
    I suggest also reading note 1278.
    
    			Steve

    
    I'd recommend you go to a counseling session together an get everything
    on the table with a certified person who knows what these things look
    like.  Sounds like you're both tired of banging your heads against the
    walls between you.
    
    -Jody

    Those little nit-picky things can really break a relationship.  I have
    been there.
    
    My husband and I are separated.  At first it was very difficult to
    leave, but now that I am on my own again, I have had time to sit back
    and reflect on our marriage and just how much he emotionally abused me. 
    I remember one Thanksgiving at my parent's house when he got into it at
    the table about how I don't time the spaghetti and the sauce to be
    ready at exactly the same time, and how much it irritates him.  Here he
    was cutting me down in front of my whole family, and my sister finally
    spoke up and asked him if timing the spaghetti and the sauce was really
    so important in the big scheme of things.  He couldn't get the
    message.  He simply went on and on about how he was right and I was
    wrong.  I left the table angry and in tears.
    
    Things like this happened all through our marriage.  He talked down to
    me, was sarcastic and condescending.  At first I didn't see it until
    people started pointing it out, and when I finally confronted him with
    it he thought I was being too sensitive.  After all, NO ONE ELSE
    thought he was, so I was wrong.  Counselling never worked for us
    because he refused to believe that something could be wrong with his
    behavior.  I was always the one over-reacting.
    
    I finally left.  Yes, it was hard, and he felt very guilty.  We both
    thought I would fall apart emotionally, but I couldn't be happier now! 
    Like you, we never sweat the big stuff.  It was the silliest, nit-picky
    things that drove us apart.  I felt like I could never do anything
    right in his eyes.
    
    Be careful, and if Eric is amenable to counselling and wants to change
    behavior patterns, go!  Remember, it takes two to tango.  When people
    hear the word "change" they immediately become defensive.  It's not the
    whole person you want to change, just the behaviors/reactions.  It is
    changing the means of communication.  Unfortunately, my husband and I
    couldn't make it past that point but that doesn't mean you can't!
    
    -Roberta
    

    I tend to believe that the "nit-picky things" people complain about
    in a relationship are really a smoke-screen for problems and emotions
    they don't want to talk about.
    
    					Steve

    
    
    Get out plain and simple.  If he doesn't want to commit and
    you do there is little you can do about him.  Get out and
    move on.  You said that you have already been stung once
    by the living situation and it appears you feel stung yet
    once again.  Move on.  

	 It sounds like you're much more committed to the relationship
	than Eric. So much so that your apparently high level of commit-
	ment to the relationship may be rubbing off on him. He may even 
	be feeling some pressure to feel the same things, with same
	intensity as you. It sounds to me as if his jocular/demeaning
	comments during serious-commitment conversations could be his
	way of hiding a very uncomfortable situation. Perhaps he isn't
	real interested in a long-term commitment but is afraid to say
	so since you're sending signals to him that *you* are ready.
	He may fear that you would leave so he just wants to keep things
	the way they are, or even better than they are if you move in
	still without a spoken commitment.

	 I know this probably sounds cold but I am trying to be as
	gentle as possible: Do you think seeing each other for 3 years 
	on a very regular basis (every weekend and a day here and there) 
	could be considered a "habit out of convenience".

	 Do you always spend time at *his* place because it's easier
	for you to visit him? Does he ever visit you or does he even 
	drop hints that he would like to spend time in *your* home? 
	On a regular basis, does he delay his regular/normal business 
	for you to help him? I know some of these things occur
	occasionally in very healthy relationships but if you can
	answer a resounding "yes", (again, this is difficult for me
	to say subtly) you may be looking at a relationship that is
	based solely on convenience. 

	 In the beginning of a "convenient relationship" it's probably
	okay with each person to spend a lot of time at somebody's
	place because commitment probably isn't implied. However, as
	time goes on, the convenience becomes a habit and eventually
	people stay together because they have already invested so
	much time and so many emotions into the relationship NOT
	because they are both truly committed to the relationship.
	
	 What does Eric bring to relationship on *his own*? Does
	he initiate meaningful things like special occasions
	(special to YOU, not him)??? Is he as much a part of your
	life as you are of his life? Better yet, do you even have
	a life together???

	 I'm all for counseling, I've never been myself but I have
	known people who benefited greatly from it. The problem (if
	I can call it that) is that the person who drives the
	relationship and recognizes the problem is also usually the
	person to arrange the counseling. Yeah, everybody looks at
	it differently but I believe if the person with the
	perceived "problem" is really willing to enter into counseling,
	then that person should be able to willingly arrange the
	counseling of his/her own initiative. Sure you could drag him
	there but if you do, it could be the start of you dragging
	him through every major phase of the relationship. If that
	is the case, do you think you can maintain the mental energy
	to continue the dragging for a lifetime?
	
	 Moving in with him may or may not be good, I won't try to
	make a judgment on that. My question is this, if the situation
	was reversed, would Eric move in with you? Perhaps you won't
	be able to get a realistic answer for my question. If not, a
	more realistic question would be, is Eric willing to move out 
	of his place and move in with you to a brand new place?? I	
	think the answer to this question would be very telling.
	
	 I heard this said a while back and can't remember where I
	heard it but I think it's worth keeping in the back of your
	mind, especially at times like these when you just see your
	life moving by and question if you are every going to get the
	things you desire. The words went something this... "being
	'grown up' does not mean that you are old(er) it means that
	you are able to make the tough decisions on the things that
	life throws your way". These words have a special meaning for
	me because whenever things get really tough, I wish I was
	a kid again with all the troubles, then I start to wonder when 
	I will ever *feel* "grown up"...

	 I know this will sound like a cliche' but marriage truly is
	made of compromise. At the same time, it is not a 50/50
	proposition, I don't think it's even a 100/100 proposition.
	I think it's more like 120/120. The extra 20% is for the times
	when things get really rough like when your both really angry
	at each other, you probably shouldn't go separate ways until you 
	cool off because you'll just continue to build up the frustration.
	Rather you should be able to talk, yell, scream, cry or whatever
	(I don't advocate violence!) and work out your differences
	together, not separately. When you're married, there is no
	other apartment to run to and the wedding vows are a mental
	reminder that you're supposed to stay in the relationship and
	keep on going.

	 I know I made some assumptions and wandered down a road but
	something tells me I'm not too far off. I'm sure you already
	know this, but this is a time for you to make some huge
	decisions. Decisions that will undoubtedly have a major major
	impact on the rest of your life. Things probably seem very
	confusing today but someday the fog will clear and you'll be
	able to see this relationship better. What decisions do you
	think you'll be able to live with in X years? There will
	probably be "I wishes" or regrets someday (no matter what
	you decide to do) but nobody of can tell you (or any of us
	for that matter) what "someday" will bring, we just point 
	ourselves in a direction and hope we get somewhere where our 
	lives are happy and meaningful. No matter how bad things get 
	now, someday you will find yourself feeling happy and 
	comfortable with your life...


	Glenn

	The following entry is being posted anonymously. You may contact the
author by mail, by sending your communication to me and I'll be glad to forward 
it on. Your message will be forwarded with your name attached, unless you 
request otherwise.

	Joe
				*	*	*


Thanks to everyone for your replies; they've really helped me get a 
better perspective on the situation and to help my pride and self-respect 
recover from where they were Tuesday night.  Eric seems to be making an 
effort to do sweet things for me, in his bizarre non-verbal way; for 
example, last night he stopped at the market and came home with a bag 
full of my favorite foods, including spaghetti (wince) which he offered 
to fix me for dinner.  I suggested we order a pizza instead, even though
he promised not to break the spaghetti.  :-)  

I guess I winced visibly and recoiled when he mentioned making spaghetti,
so I told him how I'd been feeling.  He just sat there for a long time, 
then said matter-of-factly "I didn't realize that was what was
happening".  A little later he came over and gave me a long hug.

He says he's been tense for the past 2 days, and distracted at work.  
This surprised me, since he seems so emotionally detached when I try to 
talk to him about anything to do with feelings.  I find this detachment
threatening  -- since he's usually in that mode when he says hurtful 
things -- but when I ask what he's thinking he's usually very abstract 
in his answers.  It's usually "trying to decide where to go from here" 
or "I'm perplexed".  He says he's still trying to figure out what 
happened.

I am still pretty numb.  I've been taking time in small chunks.

I'm planning to take my stuff from Eric's and go home tonight, so I can
spend some time by myself in a safe space.  I'm operating under the 
assumption that I will be making the long commute (an hour or more each 
way... sigh) from my apartment into work next week.  Eric still seems to 
be negative about counseling (he doesn't think it works), so 
realistically, this is probably it.  If he's not willing to do something 
to prevent it, I'm not willing to take the chance of him humiliating me 
again or affecting my work.

Responses to specific notes follow...

re: .1  I don't think Eric's ever been burned before.  From what I've 
heard of his past relationships, he has more of a pattern of losing 
interest.  Both of us have had a few longer-term relationships rather 
than several shorter ones... and, if anyone, *I'm* the one with the 
record of being burned.

re: .2  That sounds like exactly what I've been doing (almost verbatim!)
It hasn't been working with Eric.  Both of us are as stubborn as oxen.

re: .3 "Stuck fast in the negotiation stage".  My initial reaction is 
that that was right on the money; it certainly makes a lot more sense 
viewed that way.

re: .5  We're both in our late 20's; Eric is 2 years older than I am.

re: .6  Note 1278?  Why??  The only parallels I see are in the surface 
details of changing jobs and moving, but the context is very different.
First of all, I switched jobs because my other one went away, and this 
one was by far the best career move.  Even though there's a geographical 
difference, I'm  actually still a part of the same group.  And some of
my closest friends locally live closer to Eric than to me anyway.
Secondly, I've only been staying with him a few weeks -- and giving up
some of my furniture to move in with him would hardly be a sacrifice
since the bulk of my stuff is threadbare junk from flea markets and he
has new stuff that we picked out together.  The guy in 1278 really 
scares me.  Eric doesn't have that kind of control over me by a long 
shot.

re: .11  I've really wondered about the convenience issue, especially 
since he says that's why he took as long as he did to end his last
relationship. I've usually justified it on the basis that my home has 
been mostly *in*convenient for him.  Eric has spent a *lot* of time at 
my home and is usually the one to make the drive on weeknights; in fact,
over time he has probably spent more time at my home than I have at his.
He treats it pretty much like he does his from a chore standpoint, which 
among other things means he ends up doing most of the dishes at both 
places :-).  We both call both places "home".

I'm not sure what you mean by "delay his regular/normal business for me 
to help him".  It doesn't ring a bell though.

Eric has not been willing to move out of his current apartment into a 
brand new place with me (his former one, yes).  I can understand this 
logically: his current apartment is large, beautiful and *really* 
well-located, he's very friendly with his landlords (who are also
his neighbors), and he'd lose his (huge) security deposit if he left.  
But it's been a red flag for me too; I agree with a lot of what you 
said.

    to anon:
    
    I'm really glad to hear that you're taking care of your best interests,
    while continuing the relationship. 
    
    I have no advice to offer, but it always makes me want to scream that
    some people's immediate response to your dilema is 'dump him, get him
    out of your life, get rid of the bum.' All too often I have read that
    response here, and hear it in conversations. And I think that except in
    extreme cases, it is inappropriate advice. Human beings are NOT
    disposable, and to suggest someone fling away a love interest (or 
    friendship) based on the information that is shared here strikes me as
    pretty shallow. My mother used to say that anything worth having is
    worth working for. I think that applies to 'upkeep' of all of our
    significant relationships, too. 
    
    However things go for you, just keep on keepin' on....
    
    PW

	Re: .12 (Anon)

>I'm not sure what you mean by "delay his regular/normal business for me 
>to help him".  It doesn't ring a bell though.

	 Sorry for skipping over that so fast. Even *I* had to go back
	and read it in context to figure out the question.

	 The intent of the question was for you to ask yourself if you
	feel that Eric builds his entire life around you but is afraid
	to, or unwilling to admit/talk about it. There is probably an
	"official" term for it but I would refer to that type of behavior
	as a quiet dependency. I know we all develop dependencies on 
	other people in our lives but I think one of the most relationship
	damaging dependencies is when dependencies (healthy or unhealthy)
	can not be acknowledged. I'm having a hard time explaining this
	one and it doesn't sound like it applies anyhow so I'll just
	drop it...


	Re: .13

	 I absolutely agree with every single word you wrote, however, I
	feel the need to qualify it somewhat. The tone of this conference
	and the ground rules seem very clear, therefore, I would hope that
	everyone who enters a note asking for opinions/answers would have 
	a good idea of what to expect in return. As the saying goes, "free 
	advice is worth every penny". Also in my not_so_humble opinion,
	if you want to walk in the cow pasture, you don't have much right 
    	to complain about the doo-doo on your feet. (no, you *can not* call
	me "H. Ross Perot" :-)  )

	 I understand that some of the replies seem terse, caustic and
	cold but there are many people who read conferences like this and 
	*NEVER* respond. So from my point of view, almost any response
	of any content at minimum exhibits a concerned thought. The
	methods and messages may seem mis-placed but I believe the intent
	is on track.

	 One last thought and I will pipe down... Just about everyone
	has either "flung" or "been 'flunged'" away at some point. We are
	all aware of the difficult emotions and decisions involved. Since
	Anon comes to us (strangers) for a reality check and gives us a
	quick (but good) feel for the relationship, isn't it fair for us
	to assume that Anon *wants* an emotionally detached (AKA "shallow")
	view on the situation?


>	 My mother used to say that anything worth having is worth 
>	working for. 

	Words to live by, smart lady...


	Glenn

Re: .12

I suggested note 1278 not because the situations were the same but because
some of the emotions were the same along with a sense of "going with the
flow" rather than doing what was "right".

		Steve

    re:.0
    
    You can tell Eric that Mike Zarlenga cooked spaghetti tonight and he
    DIDN'T BREAK THE DAMN NOODLES IN HALF.  And I did it just to spite
    him.  So there.  And ya know what, I like it better this way.  ;')

    But, but, but,  Miiiiiiike  they fit better in the pan if you break
    them in half!  ;^)
    
    ahem, sorry

re: -1  Not if you're chinese you don't.  Boy talk about bad luck!

:^)
Joyce

    I don't understand why you can't get an apartment *near* Eric, that is
    a TENANT-AT-WILL arrangement (you can get out with 30 days notice)
    instead of a lease?!? This way you have your space and he has his. I
    think you both need some major space between you to see how you really
    feel. You also need to develp some outside interests so that you don't
    spend all your time thinking about him ... I think if he sees you
    develop a life of your own he'll think twice about letting you walk out
    of his life, or take advantage of you. My experience has been, the
    longer you wait for a committment with someone, the shorter your
    chances of getting that committment. Good luck,

i'm sorry, but if he was going to commit, he would...and the fact that he
has all the little nits to pick indicates to me that he looking for that
"perfect woman'....still looking while enjoying the comforts you offer.
What that means is that even if you get him to commit, he will always
be looking...and, when he finds someone who he thinks is "more" perfect...
he'll be gone in a flash...and you'll be left with the shattered
dreams.

i suggest you tell him you want an adult relationship - one which is
committed to the future and building a family - or whatever you want...
and then go about finding it.  If he really cares, he'll straighten
up and start working with you to build a relationship..if not, you can
recover and go find a man who wants what you want...and who doesn't have
lots of little nits to pick.  I would NOT suggest you move in with
�*him - get your own place and make your own plans for your daily life.
he will tie you up while he hunts for "Ms. perfection" if he can - after
all, you'll do if nothing better comes along...don't let him.  You
deserve better than this.

This man is not, IMO, a good bet.  I've seen too many relationships start
out like yours - and end in divorce with the woman struggling to rebuild 
her shattered self-esteem and raise the children - and the
man skipping off to the 20-year-old cheerleader he met in a bar.