Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    re: .0
    
    Until the hearing, there doesn't seem like much that can be done.  If
    your niece feels so strongly about staying away from her mother that
    she got a restraining order against her, I would leave it at that.  The
    one more likely to need to come back is the niece.  Obviously it's
    easier to say than do and I'm sure your sister loves her daughter, but
    letting her go and fend for herself is probably the most growing up
    she'll (the daughter) do.
    
    By the way, I stayed with a family where both parents objected to the boy
    that their 16 yr. daughter was dating.  After forbiding her to see him,
    her losing phone privileges, being grounded, and finally having the
    police called to talk to the boy, she seems to have found other
    interests.
    
       - Larry

    re.0
    You neice sounds like a real brat, myself I'd let her stay where she's
    at and change the locks.
    
    -j

    Looks like a situation where the niece will have to learn the hard way.
         Robert.

    I sure hope whoever sent the $700.00 stopped payment on the check...
    
    Sounds like the niece couldn't just grow up and move on, but needed to 
    make the break fast and furious (perhaps to force herself, perhaps to
    mark the end of childhood - painful no matter why). 
    
    There may have been nothing at all her mother could have done 
    differently that would have resulted in a more peaceful passage.  
    (Free parlor psychiatry, worth the price.)
    
    I think your sister should see a lawyer about the restraining order
    hearing and about the money.  I also think that changing the locks
    might be a good idea.  If the daughter has stolen the money, she may
    decide to make off with other things.
    
    Thoughts and prayers with you and your family,
    aq
    

    
    First of all, I think your sister was *wrong* in trying to make her
    daughter break up with her boyfriend.  The only thing she did was send
    her deeper into his arms.  The worst thing a parent can do is say "You
    cannot go out with him/her", "You can't hang around with him/her", etc.
    I am a parent myself, but I was also a teenager once myself, and I was
    a rebel in all respects of the word.  If my mother said "You can't" or
    "I told you not to", then I would do whatever it was.  It is all just
    part of growing up --- You may be 17, but in your eyes, you are an
    adult, even if the adults don't think so.
    
    Now, I was not a spoiled brat, and I was pretty respectful to my mother
    (everything "bad" I did was behind her back) and I was a very good
    student --- I was also very mature for my age and my mother did not
    want to admit that.  The only advice I can give is for your sister to
    just let go of her daughter -- she does not want to be controlled.  One
    of the worst things a parent can tell a daughter is "I don't like your
    boyfriend, and I don't want you to see him" -- you have to let the
    child figure that out for herself (or himself).  It is all a part of
    growing up.  It is not fun for a parent to see their child get hurt,
    but by trying to control the teenager, then you make things worse. 
    Just watch "Roseanne", they have a story line which follows this
    scenario very well.  Finally the parents just gave in, and after that,
    the daughters eyes started opening up.
    
    Sorry for rambling, but your neice is old enough to make her own
    decisions, and if this is what she wants, then your sister should let
    her do it --- It won't be easy for your sister or your neice, but some
    very valuable lessons on life will be learned and that is the only way
    for growing.  The only suggestion I think your sister should make to
    her daughter is that she get on some kind of birth control -- and make
    sure she does not demand this, just have her suggest it, and hopefully
    your neice will take the advice.  I think all she wants is to be
    treated like an adult.  She needs to be shown some respect for her
    feelings and decisions also.
    
    Good Luck
    

    re: .5

    By the same token, silence == approval.  If the mother had strong
    feelings about why her daughter shouldn't be going out with her
    boyfriend, she has the obligation (as a parent) to convey those
    feelings.  I agree that the "Well, you can't see him because I said
    so" approach shouldn't be used on a 17-yr. old (and unlikely to
    be much effective), but not saying something because of fear that
    she'll run off with the guy is not the right approach either, IMHO.

    Kids rebel, but they need to know that there are certain rules that
    come along with living at home.  For whatever reasons (and it's not so
    clear in .0 why the niece left and got a court order) the daughter felt
    that she was better off with running away.  I'm not sure, but it's
    possible that she may not have the right at 17 years of age to live
    without a legal guardian, so I'm curious to see what .0 writes after
    the hearing.

       - Larry
    

    Back again, already.  
    
    When my oldest daughter was engaged at 18, I felt it was a prime mistake 
    for many reasons.  My advice to her:  never marry someone with whom you're 
    not even enjoying the courtship.  Other than that, we welcomed him to our
    home and included him in all the family celebrations, tried to love him
    but couldn't do much more than put up with him.  He found it nearly
    impossible to do even that much with us.  We figured that - if worst 
    came to worst :) - he would be our relative and the father of some 
    beloved folks, so we kept trying over the next year and a half.  
    
    Imagine my relief when she dropped by one day and ever so
    casually said, "I told you I broke up with noname, didn't I?"
    
    She (25) and my son (23) have both married, and are both expecting!  
    (Well, you know what I mean)
    
    My youngest is now enthusiastically talking marriage (she's 17, the 
    prospective husband is 16).  :(  Still, he's a great guy, and I try to
    make him welcome while encouraging them to allow time to watch their 
    feelings develop.
    

    Your niece is a rebel that shows no respect for her folks and she'll
    get no respect with her behavior...
    I don't agree with some replies who said "don't say no" to a teen
    ager... I DO say no to ANY of my kids when needed and they DO LISTEN to
    me. Of course when I say no I do have a very VALID reason for saying
    no and they know it.  I have three, 26, 24 and 18... and NEVER had any
    problem with ANY ONE OF THEM.  My daughter (24 years old) is getting
    married to a boy I DID NOT KNOW till she brought him over to meet us
    and ask for her han... I asked her if he WAS A GOOD BOY and she said
    "don't worry Mom, he is a GOOD boy, trust me" and of course I did.
    
    I met him, I liked him, and one month after the engagement I flew over
    to another country to meet his family.  I liked his family as much as I
    already like him! Both my daughter and her boyfriend have our agreement
    and blessings, we are very happy for them and they will get married this 
    coming November.
    
    If I had found SOMETHING I did not like... I would immediately tell my
    daughter and believe me, she would have never ignored my remarks! she knows
    I mean well and want the best for her. I always treat her well and she
    does same! 
    
    As long as your niece lives at her parents' house she has to abide by
    their rules, that restraining order against her parents means that she
    is not at all mature, is full of resentment... and lost. SHE is the one who
    will need help... not her mother! she will find out that the boy is not
    what she needs... only when it is too late, when her life is torn or
    worst, if a baby is on its way... and there is no secure house or
    future for him/her.  I fail to understand why some teens are so dumb before
    they grow-up, they make life SO HARD for themselves and those around them!
    and life itself is not hard... WE make it that way.
    
    Your niece needs discipline and guidelines, that's all! if she accepts
    them fine, if not... time to be out and accept HER own... lets see how
    well prepared is she for that, if she thinks she is mature, she has to
    prove it.
    
    Lots of luck, Ana
    

    
    And what if her mistake ends up causing her some physical harm? My
    mother was one who always spoke her mind, and still does to this day.
    She would voice her feelings and most of the time it was feelings I had
    but just didn't see.
    
    It sounds like this young girl has not respect for her family members
    either by allowing this guy to cause problems within the family.
    
    She will soon learn that the most important people in your life is your
    family. When all else has gone, they will still be the ones there
    supporting her.
    
    Mary
    

    Issuing edicts to teenagers is useless.  What I hear is that the mother
    didn't approve/like the boyfriend.  Fine, she has that right.  The
    mother also has the right to set limits and boundries in her home.  If
    someone is in my home and is being rude and disrespectful to me I try
    to set a boundry and state that that is unacceptable behavior in my
    home.  If it's not respected then I ask the offender to leave and not
    come back until they can treat me with respect.  
    
    I feel the mother was out of line telling her daughter she couldn't see
    this boy.  To me this is trying to control.  What the mother *should*
    (and I really dislike using that word) have done is set the boundry and
    limit on behavior in her home and then banned the boyfriend from her
    home when it wasn't respected.
    
    I also wonder if there is something else going on.  A daughter doesn't
    go get a restraining order over something like this.  I wonder if there
    is more to this than the basenoter realizes.
    
    Karen

    I too have an 18 yr. old daughter and I am also going through similar 
    problems.  I wish I had an easy answer but alas, I don't, otherwise, I
    would have used it myself.  My daughter just graduated from high school
    (barely) and he boyfriend has also graduated (he is 19). Neither one of
    them has a job, nor does she look very hard .  She started dating this
    boy over a year ago.  everything was fine in the begining but that did
    not last long.  We welcomed him imto our house, fed him supper more
    often than not, took him on trips with us and generally treated him
    like one of the family (or tried to) .  My daughter started failing in
    school ( I swear, I was at the school more than she was)  She broke
    all sorts of house rules etc.  She was more or less grounded off and on
    for over a yr.  I did not forbid her from seeing this boy, but I sure
    made my feelings known, I am also not one to keep my feelings to
    myself.  I told her that he was no good, lazy , and I did not feel that
    they were a healthy couple together. (negative, negative).  He has
    since then alledgely broken into two homes , his own mother had to get a
    restraing order on him.  I have barred him from my house or even
    anywhere near my property.  
    
    My daughter and I fight constantly over this boy.  I have asked her to
    move out, the tension is unreal.  She told me that she has nowhere to
    go.  I told her to go live with that boy but she doesn't want to.  
    
    Society, states that she is an adult, but she is far from being an
    adult. she is 18 and going on 12.  She has graduated from school with
    no education nor any skills.  My heart breaks, I try to look back and
    figure out how My husband and I raised her with no self confidence in
    herself to tell this jerk to get lost.  She is still seeing him, as I 
    stated, I cannot forbid her to not see him but I do try and make it
    hard.  She lies all the time now  and I cannot honestly trust her which
    is a sad thing to say. ( this bothers me the most, trust is such a
    sacred thing)
     
    I also know that he came through  our basement window to see her one 
    night.  I have just barred up the window and put a bolt on all the doors.
    
    We do go to a counselor, sometimes all three of us, sometimes just our 
    daughter.  
    
    I know if she does stay with him, he will hurt her, physically as I
    believe he has already hurt her mentally.  I have no way to fight but
    the hate that seeths up inside because of what is going on is
    incredable.  We are trying to do our best for now.  I wish she was able
    to move out though as I believe that would be the best for all
    concerned, my husband does not want us just to kick her out on the
    street, I guess the  bottom line is that we love her and by her staying
    at home, there is always some hope.    
    
    My daughter has made some bad choices in her life but this one is the
    worst one yet.  I can only hope that she grows up soon and realizes
    that she has just threw away the best year of her life.   We all try to
    do the best for our children but we cannot live their lives for them. 
    
    Hopefully,  your niece will grow up as I hope my daughter does.  Tell your
    sister that she is not alone out there, their is something about a
    mother daughter relationship.  I also know that it doesn't make it any
    easier, as they all know how to push the right buttons and perhaps,
    therein lies the key. 
    
    My daughter is starting a job next week, I can only hope that this
    opens a new door to her life, so she can slam the other door shut.  
    I will have to wait and see.
    
    Good luck to your sister
    
    

    
    	I read through these notes and I just dont know what to say.
    It's just such a tradgedy that the social structure we live in does
    not _provide_ what these kids need, to avoid the dripping_with_
    codependancy_deadbeat_boyfriend_syndrome.
    
    	I dont want to sound like I'm on a high horse here, because
    I didnt get it either. My mother drilled into me the concept of
    "get a college education and you'll have the world by the tail!"
    So I got a college education and it was "Well, here I am world!"
    In my thrust into real life I *hardly* had the world by the tail.
    
    	Emotionally, I wasnt "suited" to have anything more than to get
    right into the dripping_with_codependancy_deadbeat_girlfriend_syndrome.
    
    	Yep.
    
    	It's not all the parent's fault, either. Some of it could be
    taken on in the education system - courses designed to lead a young
    person toward being able to make an emotionally health decision
    for themselves. I mean, "home economics and wood shop" just aren't 
    making it for young people in these terms.
    
    	I think the ability to recognize the dynamic of codependancy
    and know how to avoid it should be, by now, *common* knowledge that
    we teach to teen age children in public school systems. It should
    be something that everyone gets a basic working understanding of,
    like "washing your hands" or "exercize" or "sex education", as part
    of the standard curriculum.
    
    	#&%$ "wood shop"! - teach the children something that will help
    them avoid the utter tradgedys we're reading about in this string.
    It is *not* necessary for things to have to get "bad enough"; thrown 
    out of the house or arrested, for a young man or young woman to
    come into this kind of knowledge via some "blessing in disguise"
    such as that.
    
    	They could learn it up front, so at least they could make
    their choices via some understanding - or make it despite their
    understanding.
    
    	Joe

    I went through this with my daughter when she was sixteen. We fought ALOT 
    about it in the beginning. I wanted her to finish school. I had a car
    for her. I told her I would NOT support the route she was taking. I
    wanted her to do a 360 degree turn. She kept running away from home.
    
    She got pregnant. I filed emancipation papers. She moved in with David
    and they had a little girl. I would have to say that having the baby
    restricted far more than I ever could. She has grown up soooo much and
    so fast. David is still with her. I have to give him credit. He has
    stuck by her through thick and thin. They are finally talking marriage.
    I hope so for she is going to have another one soon.
    
    I don't know why they want to make their lives so difficult for
    themselves. It's hard as a parent not to try to sheild them from life.
    Yes some people have to learn the hard way. It's hard to let them make
    their own choices when you would like so much more for them.
    
    I have no doubt that she will do ok in life. She is a very smart and
    capable young woman.
    We are good friends now (yes we still have our moments).
    The only advice I could give to your sister is to look up a tough love
    chapter and maybe attend some of their meetings.
    
     
    
    
    

    I met a man like this once. I cannot go into details. But...I can
    say that he went thru this stage, found a good loving woman. And she
    gave him reason to get an honest job, and become a good father, and
    became an outstanding person in his community. 

    She was very young woman, very attractive, and had a good head on her
    shoulders for what needed to be done. And would say to him 'do it or
    else'. And He would rise to what ever the task was needed. Including
    getting his GED, now owns his own construction business, and has a
    lovely home, and a couple of kids. 

    He went thru this deadbeat stage to the point of living in a rooming
    house, no job, no support, was about to get evicted from there when
    he met this woman. Life has its strange twist.

RE: .4

>>I sure hope whoever sent the $700.00 stopped payment on the check...

Unfortunately, the check has to be made out to my niece, but it is owed
to my sister.

RE: .5

>>First of all, I think your sister was *wrong* in trying to make her
>>daughter break up with her boyfriend.

I never said that my sister tried to make her daughter break up with her 
boyfriend.  I said that they had many discussions about this guy and what he 
has done to the family.  He told my sister that my nephew had been seen smoking
pot at high school.  When confronting other people who know my nephew (both his 
friends and my niece's friends) it has been denyed.  Besides, he has severe 
asthma (he's almost died twice) and KNOWS that it could kill him!

She never told my niece that she couldn't go out with this boy.  She's 18 years 
old and is legally considered an adult.  My sister DID however voice her 
opinions about this boy and said that she doesn'tlike him what so ever!

RE: .9

>>Your sister went too far when she demanded that your niece not see this
>>guy she obviously feels very strongly about.  I can see why the boy is
>>not nice to the family, they haven't even given him a chance.  He's
>>only 17!  In my book 17 yr. old kids are aloowed to act like kids
>>because that's what they are!

As I said, I never said that my sister DEMANDED that my niece not see this guy. 
 Just that he would no longer be allowed into the house because of the problems 
he's caused in the house.  He may be 17 years old, but that gives him no right 
to cause trouble with everyone in the house.  He has been given PLENTY of 
chance to proove himself to be a nice guy.  My niece has been seeing him for 
the past four months and he's been welcomed into my sister's home for that 
entire time.  That is until he started this trouble.  He's also KNOWN in the 
town to be a drug dealer.

.9>>but she cut off her nose to spite her face when
.9>>she told her she could come and go as she pleased.  I can't belive it
.9>>was a big suprise that she stayed out all night!  I would've done the
.9>>same thing!

I don't believe that she "cut off her nose to spite her face".  My niece is 18 
years old.  Again, legally considered an adult.  If you will re-read my note, 
my sister was NOT surprised that my niece stayed out all night!  The issue that 
she was surprised at was the restraining order that was apparently for no 
reason.

RE: .12 + .14

Thank you for your story.  It helps to know that someone knows how you feel.

And now an update.  I got a phone call from my niece last night.  She is 
staying at a friend's house and is working on getting her own apartment.  

I asked her what happened at her house that night.  She said that there was a 
LOT of fighting and bickering.  She said that my sister got so upset that she 
pushed my niece into a wall.  She said that she put the restraining order on 
her mother because she didn't want to go back to the house at all because she 
was afraid that the arguement would continue.  I guess both of them said some 
pretty nasty things to each other.  She got the restraining order so that she 
could bring a police officer to the house to get her belongings.  That way the 
argument couldn't start again.

She told me that she DID tell the judge a "story"  in order to get the 
restraining order.  She was just terribly afraid of this argument starting up 
again.

I guess that the only thing we can do is let her go on with her life.  Make her 
own mistakes.  I'm just so afraid for her.

Thanks.

    Tell your sister that this WILL blow over. It may take some time. When
    your neice has grown up a little and has realized a few things. Some
    time in the future they will talk and come to some understandings. In
    the heat of anger things can be said that we don't mean. You can
    divorce a husband but you can't divorce your kids. The love bond will
    always be there. It's called unconditional love. I know your sister is
    just trying to tell her some things for her own good. There isn't
    anything your sister can do at the moment but wait. If she needs some
    extra support right now you can contact me off line.

    I agree with .17.  The only way she's going to learn is if she falls on
    her own face and skins her knees.  And given time, she'll probably see
    him for what he is, and realize that "mom was right"....ah yes, how
    many of us look back now and say that? :-))
    
    And as far as that comment about him being "only 17"...he's old enough
    to know better AND right from wrong.  If you were talking about an 11
    or 12 year old, I might agree with that, but not a 17 year old.
    
    Lynne
    

    Hello everyone ... My name is Holly Taylor.  I'm the originator of this
    note.
    
    I just thought I'd tell you that things have worked out finally.  My
    niece is coming home in two weeks.  She has made an obligation to take
    care of a friend's little boy while she's on vacation, but after that
    she will be home.
    
    I guess it was a so called "friend" that was actually the instigator in
    all of this.  Her "friend" told her to put the restraining order on
    her mother.  The reasoning was "then she can't make you go back home". 
    Her "friend" was also the one who got her to change her address and
    told her NOT to call her mother.
    
    She is still seeing this guy, unfortunately.  But as long as we know
    that she's all right, we really don't care.  At one time she said that
    she was going to go live in a homeless shelter.  
    
    But she has promised that the check that is suppposed to go to her
    mother WILL go to her mother.  And she has promised to live by her
    mother's rules.  She will be allowed to see this boy, but he will not
    be allowed into the house.
    
    I just thought I'd reveal myself since a lot of you already know me.  
    
    Thanks for all of your help and support.
    
    Holly