Conference quark::human_relations-v1

 WOW! My heart breaks just reading your story. It looks like you have some
 work to do. If you need someone to talk to feel free to send mail or
 call. I am in the process of divorce myself and have two young girls. My
 soon to be ex worked out a joint custody arrangement and its working quite
 well. I don't know if this is something she might be willing to look into
 but there is plenty of evidence that supports joint custody as very good way
 to bring up children and in some states it is the preffered way in the courts.
 NH is very receptive to Joint Physical Custody and as long as it is planned
 and acceptable by both parties the courts will respect the parents wishes to
 partake equally in the raising of their children. One week with her and one
 week with you may be a solution at least until he reaches school age. I can
 give you a list of some books for you and your wife to read on this topic.

 Take Care!
   Neil....

    
      Wow !    Low tolorence for stress, extreme depression, paranoid
    of the neighbors "out to get her" !!!
    
     Sounds like schizophrenia to me !!!
    
     I wonder, did the psychologist mention that possibility? 
    
     

    
    Also,  other symptoms are  broken thought pattens, hearing voices
    
    etc............ fear of others " out to get me "  are most common.
    
    My mother has an acute case of it......very sad + tuff on her and
    
    loved ones.
    
    
    Jack

    
    
    check out the Non-Custodial Parents Notesfile
    a lot of suggestions and pointers there
    
    
          
        Good Luck
    
         Steve
    

    Sounds like something from "Oprah." IMO, I would fight for full custody
    of your son. She sounds unbalanced, cannot handle daily stress, has a
    track record of not being able to hold a job or stick with anything for
    very long. What will happen when your son gets sick? or an emergency
    occurs? will she be able to deal with it rationally and calmly? Does
    she have a history of drug or alchohol abuse? do you feel secure with
    her family? in the event she can't raise him by herself?
    
    I'm sure you've thought of all this, but from a complete stranger's
    point of view, she does not sound capable of taking care of herself,
    let alone a child. You have rationally thought this through, have given
    her ample opportunties to grow and improve the situation, even thought
    ahead to check the bank account. Listen to your heart, 99.9% of the
    time your gut instincts are right.  Good luck!

    It will be VERY hard for you to get custody of your child. You won't
    be able to stop her from taking him out of state.
    
    You can try, but it will be VERY expensive and it will be long lasting.
    
    The best this to do is go for joint custody.
    
    Then you can wait and see if she improves. Only time will tell.
    If she really can't take stress like you say then chances are she
    will give you the child. If she has family to help her - she will
    probably be ok.
    
    The best thing you can do is stay in contact, send care packages,
    keep up your childsupport, and use your visitation rights. Always
    remember his birthday. Someday you may be able to spend time with
    him.
    
    I'm very sorry you are going through divorce. It's a terrible ordeal.
    Especially if you DRAG it out fighting over custody. 
    
    My ex and I have been to court MANY times over this and he has
    tried MANY tatics to get custody.
    
    In the end I moved across country - (he even followed me here to get
    custody) - he doesn't see the kids much. Maybe if he would of helped
    me raise them instead of fighting me so much for custody - things
    would be different. He has one of my kids now. My son wanted to spend
    some time with him.
    
    

    I'm sorry you're going through this.
    
    I have no advice other than find the best lawyer you can afford.
    
    Some thoughts...
    
    As she has a poor track record for holding a job.. and really appears to
    not be to interested in working... sounds like she might want to take
    your son and live with relatives.  Thus, she wouldn't have to work,
    would have a roof over her head, would be in familiar surroundings, and
    would be collecting child support from you.  She could live the easy
    life for a while.
    
    Mean while, your working hard to get your own life together, sending
    her money which may she may consider 'her income,' and you may not
    have much contact with your boy.
    
    Divorce really sucks for children.  Nowadays, people divorce on a whim
    with no regards to their children.  It's the "I - ME" years.  Like my
    "X" is going to give me custody as long as SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO PAY
    SUPPORT!  She needs to get on 'her' feet first!
                                        

    Re: 1251.6: why will it be "VERY hard" for the base noter to get
    custody of his child? I don't quite understand. There is documented
    proof that she has been under psychological care; cannot hold a steady
    job; has no proven track record of stability.
    
    I am not playing devil's advocate, I'm just interested in learning why
    the father cannot get custody if the mother is not stable...does it not
    matter in the courts? Do most women automatically gain custody because
    they are the mother? 

     Re: .8

	  Yes.

				      Brian

    re .8
    
    Because I've been involved in this kind of thing you sort of watch what
    happens in your case and others. I've watched fathers spend $$$ to no
    avail. Unless he can prove that she is an 'unfit' mother. I'm just
    being honest. A lawyer will take your money and try to fight the case
    in court. I've seen fathers spend $$$ to try to prevent mothers from
    taking their kids out of state. 

    
    This is really sad because there are so many issues to be dealt with
    and the future of a child is on the line.
    
    I certainly can't begin to tell you what to do, but I would like to
    offer some suggestions.
    
    Without speaking with both of you, and basing these suggestions on a
    written statement in a public forum, they may not necessarily be of use
    to you.
    
    The first thing that comes to mind is the issue of the abortion.  This
    is very serious and if the issue hasn't been resolved in your wife's
    mind could explain much of her behavior.
    
    Next, from what I read, it appears that each of you are dealing with
    expectations and they don't seem to be compatible.  In your note you
    mentioned that you expected her to work and help you financially
    because this was the 90's.  I'd like to pose a question to you
    regarding your commitment to the 90's lifestyles.  This of course is
    just for you to think about and does not require an explantion.  Did
    you take on the responsibility of helping her with her commitments at
    home when she worked, or was that part of her responsibility also.  I
    think we are all confused as to what is really expected of us in this
    90's lifestyle.
    
    Do you really want a divorce?  This is very important.  Because if a
    marriage can be saved it's worth the effort.  The grass is no greener
    on the other side and if these issues are not resolved they will only
    be repeated.  If you really don't, I would like to suggest seeking
    counseling together.  It's a much better investment than legal fees.
    
    If a divorce is required.  May I suggest that you take into
    consideration the effect your (meaning both of you) actions and
    reactions will have on your son.  In his eyes you are both perfect and
    if the typical verbal abuse ensues the damage to him will be
    considerble.  
    
    Finally, some attorney's prey on this type of situation and encourage
    disagreements and "battles" because each time they call or file
    with/for you the "time clock" ticks.  It's a business for them and has
    nothing to do with justice.
    
    Good luck to all three of you.
    
    Ellen

	As the author of the base NOTE, I would like to thank everyone for their
  understanding and compassion.  I have received some very good advice in both
  the replys to the NOTE, and through my VAXmail account.  Thank you all!!!

	Let me start by saying that I have contacted several lawyers and the
  opinion of all was to wait and contact them after I have been served the
  papers.  Their reasoning was that until I know what the charges are they are
  not sure what they are up against.  All were more than willing to talk to me
  once this happens.

	I have thought out the situation, and come to the conclusion that it is
  definitely in my son's best interest that I have custody of him.  One of the
  replys I received made a definite point as to his safety and care should an
  emergency arise while he is in her care.  I hope she has also thought about
  this, and luckily the doctor's office is not too far away.  I have also done
  some soul searching about care of him WHEN I get custody.  He will have the
  same situation to deal with whether I get him or she gets him.  Her "ultimate"
  goal is to stay with her folks for a "little while" and then take an apartment
  in a different part of the state.  She thinks she will take a roommate, and
  have one of her sisters watch him while she "works" the 3:00 to 11:00 shift.
  It all sound so good on paper...  But I know her, and She will be happy for
  only a few months, then back to her negative and self centered disposition
  again!  

	My son right now is still staying at her brothers house, and I get to
  play with him for a little while and tuck him in every night.  She has been
  VERY nice about the entire situation, and assures me that she isn't going
  anywhere for a while.  She says I can see him anytime I want, and can have
  him on weekends.  The entire time I am visiting, she cleans the place which
  is more than she would do at our place.  It just kills me to have to leave
  him there, but for right now with my financial situation, I think this is
  the best place for him.  She is home all day, and has no plans on getting a
  job here.  She is only here till the court hearing and the decision of temp.
  custody.  I think her lawyer has advised her to do this.  

	Maybe someone out there knows how hard it is to get a record from the
  different medical insurance carriers regarding what bills they have paid over
  the years?  I want to get some sort of statement which lists the doctors she
  has gone to over the last 6 years or so.  Do the insurance companies give out
  this type of information readily?  This will give me a lot more ammo in the 
  case, and would  eliminate some of the lawyers leg work.  

	I don't understand where her head is at, and what she thinks she is
  gaining by going this route, but I tried the entire time we were/are married
  to make her life a little easier, and this is how I get payed back??  Like
  I stated in the base note, I feel she thinks she has everything she wants
  out of a marriage (my son), and now she wants to "take the money and run"!!
  She is in for a rude awakening when she realizes what she has lost, and what
  the real world has in store for her.  Wait till she has to take care of her
  own medical bills, or even getting up at 6:00 am to watch the little guy.
  That was something which I always did, and enjoyed every morning.  I know
  that I'm not perfect, but I've ALWAYS tried to make her life easier and less
  stressful.  Thanks again to all for your concerns and recommendations.  I'll
  keep you informed as to what is going on.

		Signed,
                ANON  Who_is_still_waiting_to_be_served_the_papers...

    Just something to think about...should it go that far.
    
    But, if you're considering fighting for custody, once the papers are
    served, and your arguement is that your wife is not suitable as the
    custodial parent, then it seems to me, that you'd have to prove that the
    current situation is not suitable..but you say it is the best situation
    as it is now.  That she take care of him because she's not working and
    she's doing a good job at her parents picking up and generally being a
    good mom.
    
    I think that the judge would look at who has the child now and how that
    is working.  And you are accepting it.
    
    Seems like your wife's parents are very willing to "help" their
    daughter in almost every capacity.
    
    Also something to consider...should you receive custody or should you
    now take your son home, (couldn't you do that?) then you need to get
    the daycare and schedules as a single parent figured out immediately.
    
    It may seem contradictory to a judge that on one hand you say your wife
    is unfit as a mother but on the other she is perfectly capable while
    you get some money together.
    
    

    Re: 6,9 this totally blows my mind. I can't believe the courts are more
    in favor of the mother than the father only because of that fact. What
    would have happend if the father decided to divorce the mother on
    grounds like mental cruelty or physical abuse? I am thinking of the
    woman who has hit all the talk shows lately because she killed her
    husband and his new wife (Betty something) because she couldn't stand
    him leaving her. *He* got custody of the kids because she was a danger
    to all of them.
    
    Re: Anon, the more you tell us, the more I read into this that your
    wife is a control freak. SHE is the one who is deciding the rules right
    now, not you. This I find totally frustrating. Of course, there are two
    sides to every story...perhaps in her 10 years of marriage she never
    felt any control over her own life? and now she is testing the
    waters...again, good luck.

 If you've ever seen the movie Kramer vs Kramer you can see how a court
 system can be biased towards the mother. Until the fathers stereotype
 role of provider and the mothers as nurturer is abolished the mother
 will continue to be granted custody unless she can be proven a totally
 unfit person to assume the primary role of raising a child. I chose to
 convince her to allow us both equal opportunities to provide/nuture our
 children and I personally feel this was the right decision to for all
 concearned. Yes I do also pay child support! But its nowhere near what
 it would cost for fultime daycare of our children. Hopefully if her
 income increases I can convince the court to reduce the support payments.
 Our children have adjusted well to our custody arrangement and are
 happy children at the present time. If you are thinking of going this
 route convince your wife NOW don't wait for the court to decide for
 you. Once again there are plenty of books out there that support the
 benefits of both parents sharing equal roles in raising their children.
 I hope that when they are old enough to decide if they want to live
 with one of us full time that my equal time with them will play an
 important part in that decision.

 Good Luck!
 
   Neil....

    Don't wait to be served. Serve'm yourself! That who is the first to
    press the button wins. And sorry ladies and gentlemen, this is an
    adversarial game. If she has left the marital home, and your in it, you
    might have a better stand as well. By you filing first, you will get
    the upperhand. <period> Weither you want custody or not. There is no
    love loss in a divorce. I would bet the unknown author that he is still
    wearing his wedding ring because he is in hope that this will blow
    over and things will get back to routine. Bunk! If your wearing it.
    Chuck it now! Go to the rivers edge and toss it with all your might!
    For as soon as she figures it out. She is gone! Joint custody doesn't
    do you dit! Get joint PHYSICAL CUSTODY! Anything less than that is a
    waist of paper and your money for your attorny. 
    
    Remember this.... If she wants her freedom. Give it to her.....:)

    re: .9
    
            NO
    
    Now more and more you see the father's with custody.  I say, "Go
    fight".  Do you want your kid growing up a basket case as well.  If her
    problem is clinical then your son has a strike or two against him as
    is.  This is hereditary.  Best try to give him the most stable
    enviroment possible.  I believe you CAN get custody.
    
    Katrina

    RE.16
    I agree 100% serve her and quick!
    
    -j

    Serve her now and fight for custody. You may be able to get
    desertion on her.  Believe me, I've seen first-hand the gruesome damage
    a mother can do in a custody fight, and it isn't pretty.  Start
    it now and get it over with.  If it has to happen, the quicker
    it is done with, the better it is for your child.
    
    Mary-Michael 

    Get a lawyer and do what he or she tells you to do.
    

    Carefull of your lawyers. Make shure they can site you case on their
    wins. This information is public. If your lawyer says some crappie
    about thats non of your business. Then they are right, its not a
    business relationship that you want to get into. lawyers have
    great parlor salesman-ship. And will tell you what you want to hear.
    They will also make you promises that there is no absolute. Its
    a gamble, a crap shoot.
    
    Interview many lawyers before you place down that shoot money. And
    make shure that you let the lawyer know up front, that he/she is
    your employee, not the other way around. The lawyer that knows
    this mission is the lawyer you want. Taken from experince. I had
    interviewed many of them before I slapped down the shoot money.
    And still, I was turned upon in the final hour. Thank goodness
    for networking with the fathers group that I was a member to.
    I would have been sold up the river for a song.

    
    You should definately hire the best lawyer you can afford but you must
    also remember that you must help YOURSELF as much as you can because in
    the end YOU (and your son) will have to live with whatever the outcome
    is. 
    First of all, from what you have written, it seems that SHE has had the
    upper hand in all of this so far and you have gone along with it
    (probably to try and avoid an all-out-war with her which is
    understandable, however, she seems to realize that you have on so many
    occasions gone out of your way to make her happy and takes advantage of
    it). Under the circumstances, you should told her to go if she must but
    that you would not let her take your son away from you. (Yeah I know,
    how to stop her without getting the child caught in the middle is
    almost impossible) but you should have at the very least made her agree
    to an arrangement which gave you joint PHYSICAL custody right from the
    start (ie why are you going there to visit when you could be taking the
    child to your home for the weekends or a few days at time?) 
    
    Anyway, that part is already past and now you have to concentrate on
    the battle that lies ahead. Some thoughts:
    1. Don't let you emotions rule and cause you to do things you will
       later regret (In situations like this it is easier than you think).
       Lawyers get paid by the hour (around $125 or so) and are willing to
       fight over ANYTHING that you are willing to pay them to fight over
       so do yourself a favor and decide what's really important and what's 
       not BEFORE you tell the lawyer to pursue it (ie Custody of the child is 
       important, pots and pans are not)
    2. Try as best you can to work out as many things as possible with your
       wife without the help of the lawyers.
    3. If you haven't already done so, try to get physical custody of your
       son as often as you can (for a week, a weekend) whatever you can do
       without a major battle. This will establish a pattern of joint
       physical custody which could work in your favor when you get to
       court. In many of the cases that I have seen, the judge has the 
       unenviable job of trying to decide what's best for the child so if
       there is already an arrangement in place which everybody seems happy 
       with, it is very likely that the judge will order that this
       arrangement continue until and unless the circumstances change 
       significantly enough to warrant him/her to order some other
       arrangement.
    4. Eventhough she has already filed it probably would help (and
       certainly wouldn't hurt) for you to file also.
       
    

    Well, it's been just over 2 months since this whole thing started,
    and I thought I should update everyone about what's been going on.  I
    chose an attorney local to where I work, and have been VERY happy with
    him so far.  He seems like the right choice for me, and was the only
    one who showed some sort of interest in my situation.  I must say that
    I interviewed about 6 different lawyers before I chose him, and he came
    highly recommended from several sources.
    
    I was very uncomfortable when I first met him because he was
    extremely business like, and the entire hour and a half conversation he
    was summing me up by listening to what I had to say.  By the end of our
    conversation I felt more at ease with him because he had loosened up
    and was taking a sincere interest in my case.  I called him the next
    day and asked him to represent me in court.  He took the case and
    charged me less of a retainer than any other lawyer I had spoken with
    because he could tell by talking to me that I was honestly concerned
    about my son, and didn't have a lot of money to work with. He thinks
    that I have better than a good chance of winning this case with my
    wifes background, but told me that nothing was definite, and he
    couldn't guarantee anything.  I understood that and was just happy that
    I found someone who has my interest in mind and not just putting on a
    show to take my money.
    
    We went to the prelim hearing and my lawyer showed up loaded for
    bear! My wifes lawyer presented her side and reserved some time at the
    end for a rebuttal, then my lawyer got up and really laid out our
    position well, then got into my wifes mental problems, her lack of work
    history, the fact that she had been keeping my son in an environment
    which was "unfit for human habitation" and her inability to cope with
    life without being depressed all the time. I was sitting in the
    courtroom gloating because he was very articulate and to the point
    about the way he positioned my side.  He did a GREAT job!!! Her lawyer
    got up and acknowledged that my wife had indeed been under treatment
    but said that she has been back to the doctor and has a note which
    states that she is cured.  Yah right...  Anyway, after court no
    decision was made in  regards to who has physical custody of my son,
    and the two lawyers have to decide on the appointment of the guardian.  
    
    About a week later my lawyer called and said that the court has
    sent it's decision, and all in all he was very pleased because they
    have done some- thing they don't usually do.  The judge decided to give
    temporary physical custody to both of us and I get him for a week, then
    she gets him for a week. We both have to share the driving, which is
    good because she has moved to her folks house out of state, and both of
    us get to keep our respective vehicles. The bad news is that I have to
    pay her $100.00 a week temp alomony until she completes this certified
    nurses aide course in the state where she is living, **PLUS** $75.00 a
    week for child support including the weeks I have him!!! Where am I
    going to come up with all these added expenses when the whole time I
    was married, I couldn't make ends meet on my pay alone?  Now I have
    other bills added to my limited income, and still have to pay for a
    sitter the weeks I have my son!  It just isn't very fair, because she
    has no expenses, no bills, no responsibilities, and nothing to do but
    sit on her butt while I break mine!! She still isn't working, but is
    enrolled into a course which doesn't start until mid July.  It comes
    down to the fact that I'm paying for her lawyer to  sue me for a
    divorce which I didn't want in the first place!!!  I can't believe this
    is happening...
    
    The guardian has been worked out as of last Thursday, and I can
    expect a call from "HER" sometime in the next 2 weeks for a meeting. 
    Oh yah, I have to come up with half of her retainer and fees out of my
    pocket while my wife gets to take advantage of the fund set up to pay
    for a guardian, then make some arrangements to pay it back at a later
    date!  (My fingers are sore from pounding on my keyboard because this
    ticks me off to no end!)  Another case of sticking it to the working
    guy and let the lazy BI*CH still sit on her ass and do nothing just
    because she is not working!!!!  But I digress...
    
    I just figured that I'd update my note and let everyone who has
    responded know that I appreciate the feedback, and want to thank you
    for your advice and caring in my situation.  I'll keep you posted when
    I know more.
    
    
    ANON
    

    Dear anon,
    
    Please read 1251.6 and 1251.10 again. This whole thing is going to cost
    you $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and the further you go the more $$$$$$ it will
    cost. I've been through this with my ex four times. Didn't you have
    visiting rites before? You should go for joint custody. 
    
    Maybe some time down the road something will happen and you will get
    what you want. You have to prove your ex is a bad mother. It sounds
    like she is trying to do something with her life and in the courts
    eyes that looks good.
    
    I know I'm saying something to you that you just don't want to hear.
    I thought maybe you could learn something from my experience. Maybe
    you have to learn the hard way.
    
    Anyway good luck with your case. It will be a loooong fight. It really
    will only bring you more distress.
    
    BTW I NEVER speak to my ex. Even if he calls. It has brought very hard
    feelings between us for him to fight for custody. It would of been much
    better for him if he would of tried to work something reasonable with me 
    for the kids.  I wanted to work something out with him, but he burned 
    bridges. He didn't want the divorce either. He would give his eye teeth 
    to have me and the kids back.
    
    Really think about what you're doing. Is it really worth it????
                                                                   

    re .24
    good point, but I think that if his children are under duress and in 
    danger of mental or cruel harm, the $$ are no object.
    
    I have spent approx 11k in the last 1.5 years and expect to spend
    another 5k more AT LEAST.  
    
    I think that it is too bad that folks can't work things out, but
    sometimes throats have to be cut for the good of the children.  Its
    too bad that they usually don't understand it till many years later.
    
    Bruce