Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Move somewhere far away.
    

        .0, Anonymous;
        
        Let's see if I understand you...
        
        1. Your fiancee pays towards her sister/brother_in_law/mother's
        house - AND -  they expect her to continue paying after you and
        she are married and establishing your own life?
        
        2. Mother_in_law  has  arbitrarily decided that she  will  live
        with you when you marry?
        
        3. You  get  to  pick  up the tab for  the  wedding  with  your
        fiancee's family dictating the terms?
        
        In my opinion (for what  it's  worth!),  talk it over with your
        fiancee and if she agrees, then  put  your  foot down _hard_!!!
        You're describing a recipe for disaster.   When  you marry, you
        need time and privacy to learn to live  together  and  begin to
        bond as a couple.  Mother_in_law controlling the household will
        almost  certainly  cause  huge  resentment  on your part and in
        time,   you'll  most  likely  take  it  out  on  your  fiancee,
        especially if  M_in_L is as domineering as you say.  The stress
        and resentment combined in that situation would be intolerable,
        given the facts as you've presented them in .0.
        
        Above all, it's your (and your fiancee's)  decision.    I don't
        know if the above is what you want  to  hear, but I know that I
        could  not  live like that.  IMO, YOU have to take  control  of
        your life  and  with  your fiancee's agreement, decide how your
        married life will  be  established, along with how you both run
        your household.

        You and your fiancee have to talk honestly and openly and agree
        completely on whatever course of action you jointly decide  and
        then act on the joint decision.
        
        Best of luck, and please let us know how it goes.
        
        Andy

    Haven't you heard the saying"
    
    A son is a son 'til he takes a wife ...
    but a daughter's a daughter for all of her life ...
    
    
    ????
    
    
    Your last line states you have come to the conclusion that the problems
    are not cultural.  Since she is from another culture, and Asian, can't
    you see that these differences are #1, cultural  and #2, not going to
    go away.  I've spent a lot of time overseas, and my sister married a
    European man.  Believe me, these things you are describing are
    *definitely* cultural differences.  You either have to live with them
    and realize this (ie: value difference) isn't going to change, or get
    out of the relationship.  The American way of life is *very* different
    from other cultures, believe me.  And it isn't going to be easy for you
    once you get married.
    
    I wish you much luck.  You are going to have to learn communication
    skills in a *big way* if you marry your sweetheart.
    
    Tammi 

>>    Your last line states you have come to the conclusion that the problems
>>    are not cultural.  Since she is from another culture, and Asian, can't
>>    you see that these differences are #1, cultural  and #2, not going to
>>    go away.  I've spent a lot of time overseas, and my sister married a

Your statement of fact and your conclusion are not necessarily true. My 
great grandmother was certainly not Asian, yet she tried not only to control
every aspect of her children's lives (who they married, what they did, where
they lived) but also her grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc.  Even if
it is, they live here - not there.

I think this sounds like an extreme case of a domineering mother-in-law.

M

    
    Elope...then if her family wants a get-together with all "their"
    friends, have them throw it for you...
    
    then, move to the other coast!
    
    Good luck.
    

    I concur.  Expand on .2's list (*everything* that rankles you or just
    doesn't seem right) and go over it, word for word, with your fiancee.
    
    It doesn't sound *all* culturally related to me either.  I read (in
    PARENTING?) recently, though, that it's not uncommon in some Asian
    cultures for the firstborn to be HANDED OVER TO ITS GRANDPARENTS!!  For
    good!!!!  So, though it sounded like you were exaggerating for effect,
    in a worst-case-scenario M-I-L might literally take your child(ren).
    
    Leslie

    Domineering Mother-in-laws can happen in any culture. Having had
    considerable exposure to `Asian culture,' I think the big difference is
    in the attitude of the daughter to such domination by her mother.
    American women feel justified in reacting more quickly and telling
    their domineering mother to back off. An Asian woman usually will not
    feel comfortable at all with that; if parents aren't always obeyed
    to the letter, they are almost always treated with a great deal of 
    respect. Your bride-to-be will not really understand it (and probably
    will resent you) if you don't do that with her parents. Her love for
    you will clash with her conscience over her parents, and the resulting 
    problems could be enormous.  
    
    If you marry into an Asian family (yes, in Asian cultures you ARE marrying 
    the family in a much greater sense than in America), the only way you
    are going to make a success of it is:
    
       1. Move far away, as someone suggested (but they still might want to
          move in--and that WILL be hard to deny). 
    
       2. Plan to bite your lip a lot, and be prepared to put up and shut
          up a lot.
    
    Someone else suggested that you `put your foot down.' That would be
    fine with an American bride, but very likely it won't work with this
    Asian one. If you do that, you're very likely to lose your bride's love 
    and trust. IN ASIAN CULTURES, PARENTS ARE SACRED; YOU PUT THEIR WISHES
    AND NEEDS AHEAD OF YOUR OWN. Violate that, and you're violating a more
    that is likely to be too big for your wife to handle. It's in their
    blood; they're taught it from birth. 
    
    If you're not ready to accept this about your wife, and ready to do
    some serious swallowing of your own pride, it is very likely this
    marriage will have huge problems; you may want to reconsider it. 
    
    One bright note: Asian wives tend to be devoted and faithful and are
    taught to view their husbands with almost as much respect as they do 
    their parents--but not quite as much. 
    
    I wish you luck. If you make this work, you'll have done a LOT of
    stretching, growing and conquering of pride....
    in mind. 
    you'll lose her, for all practical purposes.  

    (Ignore the last two lines of the previous reply. It was left in
    accidentally..)

    For starters, I would run off and get married without the big wedding,
    maybe invite the parents. If after you both agree to let Mom live
    with you I would sit with her and explain the rules.

    I understand about domineering mothers and mother-in-law.  My mom
    is German and demands a great amount of respect from her daughters.
     I believe she deserves it, but it can become a conflict when I as a
    daughter have to make a decision between my husband and my mother.
     I hate it.                                    
    
    There have been times when I felt I had to defend her and then defend
    him.  I refuse to do this anymore.  If they want to be disgusted
    with each other, fine.  I'm staying out.  Well, as much as possible.
    
    I enjoy lots of family.  Unannounced, announced I don't care.  I
    love company.  Most of the time, anyway.  It was and still is
    a conflict for me though when I think about my "husband's" family.
     I loved the idea of me marrying into the family.  His mom and dad
    treated very nicely.  I'd like to think my "husband" as part of
    my family-(my mom, sisters and all).  I like to think of my sisters'
    husbands as family.  It's hard though, when you know of the divorce
    rate.  You hate to take sides.
    
    If you can, just plain talk to your SO's mom and family.  I have
    a feeling, if they're anything like mine, they'll like you even
    if you disagree with them.  Let them know your position.  Don't
    let your SO be the go between.  Believe me, she doesn't want to
    be and I don't think it should all be up to her.  Even if you and
    her folks argue.  So what, that's family.
    
    

>>                     <<< Note 1177.7 by REGENT::DITTMER >>>
    >>
>>    If you marry into an Asian family (yes, in Asian cultures you ARE marrying 
>>    the family in a much greater sense than in America), the only way you
    
	Yech...be happy you can choose your friends, because...
    
    	I'm Asian and I wouldn't put up with that cr*p.  One thing that
    	sort of belief suggests is that family is better than someone
    	outside the family.  That's a bunch of baloney.
    
    	Unless you see what's going on and do something about it to change
    	it, the mother-in-law you see now is the wife you're going to have
    	in twenty or thirty years from now.  Is that what you want?  It's
    	a cycle!  YOU have to break that cycle.  
    
    	It's possible that your fiance is looking for an out.  If you make
    	the decisions regarding your in-laws, your fiance will be spared
    	the blame...you'll get all of the abuse.
    
    	In Chinese weddings, MOST of the people who are invited aren't
    	even close friends.  The parents just invite all their friends.
    	And, yes, the groom's family pays for everything...
    
    	Since you luck out with paying for everything, I would think
    	that you have *ALL* the say in what happens.  If someone complains,
    	tell them they're not shelling out the bucks so they should go take
    	a long walk on a short pier.  Don't put up with any cr*p from
    	the in-laws or else they're going to be abusing you for the rest
    	of your life.
    
    	B.

    Also....
    
    The in-laws might be trying to upset you enough so that you'll leave.
    I can see that happening.
    
    If you leave, they win.  Remember that.
    
    B.

    
    take control - if not now - it sounds like a life of misery - for me at
    least ... It does sound like your fiance is looking to you to break the
    cycle ...
    
    What ever you do - Make your stance before you get married - not
    afterwards - then it is to late ... Make the tough decisions now - for
    they will be set in stone later ...
    
    As far as the mother-in-law moving in --- I would leave the country
    first --- but that's me and I love family a whole lot ...
    
    My grandfather had a great saying - I hope this does not affend anyone
    
    	"Fish and Relatives smell after 3 days ... "
    
    		i.e. time together is good - but to much time ruins things
    
    	my 2 cents ... jgk
    

    RE .2

    As the base noter, I d like to make a few comments to this discussion.
    My fiancee's folks won't re finance or release her from the mortgage
    that they have on the house.  knowing them as well as I do, they will
    probably ask for $$ once she moves up and the 1/3 - 1/2 shes been
    paying for the mortgage dries up.  Rationale would be that we make more
    than they do, so we can afford to give them some... ( sounds like BS,
    right?) I m stuck with trying to swing the entire mortgage on the new
    home myself. My  folks will give me a lot of heat if they help us out
    and find out that she's not pulling her own weight ( ie. commiting to a
    home/house ) even if its only on paper.  It's only fair, right?  That
    leaves only only one *viable* reason left why people get married -
    love.  Sigh. luckily its the most important. 
    
    However, my feeling is that although you dont just marry a person,  you
    marry the family,  her family *shouldn't* be a factor in our
    relationship now or later.  Of course, having in laws at home
    especially on weekends when you re desparately trying to sack away some
    quality time together can be a real b****.   Her mother has a habit of
    trying to make people feel guilty about not doing as she pleases.  This
    includes "procotcol" stuff like bowing, etc. which no one does anyway.
    Violation of this results in indefinate non-existence.
    
    Communication is open.   However, some people are plain stubborn, and
    refuse to even hear what you say. That's what we have here.   I ve also 
    traveled quite a bit myself, and have met other people.  I think that
    we ve transcended the cultural differences.   Now, the question remains
    on how one deals with out alienating people or cuasing resentment.
    
    RE:.12 -  Get me to leave? I doubt it. More like get me more involved
    in how they do things.  

    
    
    re getting out of the mortgage.
    
    Is your fiancees name on the mortgage?  If so, legally is there a 
    way in which she can get it off the mortgage?  If not, she legally
    is entitled to pay it. 
    
    
    I think you are basically dealing with a very domineering family
    structure which is run by the mom  similar to a patriarchy (sp?).
    Mom dictates what will be done, when and how.  If this woman has
    been running the show to date with your fiancee taking an active
    part in obeying her, you are going to be looked upon as the bad
    guy no matter how you try to rationalize with the mother.
    
    I agree that you and your fiancee should live by yourselves. As
    for the mortgage issue, seek legal advice immediately.
    
    Hope it works out for you!!
    Michele

    
    Don't get a lawyer!  You want to have a good start with you in-laws,
    don't you?  Your in-laws will be very insulted if you get a lawyer.
    
    Your future mother-in-law sounds so much like my Mom and her friends.
    My husband is not an Asian, but he gets alone great with my Mom.  What
    we do is when it comes to money (we do support my parents), I will
    tell my Mother about our decision.  If my parents will benefit from our
    decision, I will say my husband thinks this is what we should do; if we
    have to say NO to them, I will say I am the one who made the decision,
    and explain to her the reasons.  Sure I have to get into arguments with
    my Mother, and most of the time when I say NO to her, she starts saying
    that I am a horrible doughter who forgot that they are the one who sent
    me to college, and they are the one who gave me a good life.....But I
    am her daughter, she will always takes me back, and start speaking to
    me again.  
    
    By the way, Chinese parents usually rely on their grown children to
    support them financially.  Before the child gets married, he/she
    usually has to give his/her whole paycheck to their parents if he/she
    lives at home.  I don't see why can't your fiance say no to her Mother.
    I simply told my Mom I have my own expenses, I agreed to pay their
    mortgage, electricity bills, but they had to get money from my
    siblings for other things.  I can see when I have a baby, I won't be
    able to pay for their mortgage, then I probably want my name to be on
    the deed, so I can get small loans against that house.
    
    My parents does not speaks too much English, so we go to visit my
    parents, I always try to translate everything so my husband won't
    feel that he is left out.  
    
    A lot things will depend on how your fiance would like to handle it. 
    I told my Mom that if I could not have the reception in that nice house
    I made reservations of, I was going to get married in Hawaii with only
    my best friends, so we didn't have to argue about this stupid
    reception.  And it worked, she wanted to invite the world, we ended up
    to have only relatives and a few of my husband's and my friends.
    
    Don't give up on your mother-in-law, she can turn around to be the best
    mother-in-law you can ever have.  Now when we go visit my parents, my
    Mother wants me to call her first, so she can prepare some of my
    husband's favor dishes.  Even though, he still don't want to move in
    with her because the way she wants to control your life.
    
    Good Luck
    

    
     Does this situation occur when the male is Asian (1/2) and the female
     is Caucasian?  
    
    
     Melinda
     

    RE.16 andthe base note.
    
    My first wife was Chinese and I faced similar problems.  We staeyd
    married for 2 years but I don't have the solutions for you.  It's a
    matter of where you choose to draw the line.  Her mother was very 
    dominent in what we were supposed to do/not do.  I was appauled at 
    it and had a rough  time adjusting and learning my way around.  I 
    never did have time to learn all the ropes in how to deal with her.
    But I did learn that this was typical behavior for an Asian home.  
    Her father, had an attitude of indifference and subservience (in my 
    opinion) he never countermanded any of her wishes or statements and 
    basically stayed in the background when we were around.  This too
    was typical behavior for the Asian family.  So, what do you do?
    Like I said it depends on where you choose to draw the line.  Keep in 
    mind that your future mother-in-law was raised with very different 
    value sets that seem strange and different to you... but are not only 
    acceptable but correct to her.
    
    The trick is in convincing her that her ways are not your own and that 
    they are going to cause conflicts between you and her.  Once you get
    that established, she's still going to be a pain and a problem, but at 
    least she'll understand that when you say NO about something it isn't 
    because you are trying to cause her problems or "steal her daughter's
    love" (Something I was accused of during my marriage).  It's instead a 
    case of a different set of values and upbringing.  Keep in mind that 
    to many Asian families raised in a "traditional" household... such
    things as Social Security and other forms of financial security are not 
    taken into account for the future.  They depend on the children to 
    supply all.
    
    (Which was another major hassel between me and my in-laws!)  Culturally
    the Asian family is raised beleiving that the child owes the parent
    all.  Where as the American family is raised beleiving (although many 
    don't realize it) that the parent owes the child all.  There are
    variations on the two themes in both cultures but for the most part,
    that's the way it is.  
    
    The important thing to remember is you are bucking upbringing and 
    tradition.  Not just her mother-in-law's whims and fancies... she 
    (the m-in-l) actually feels that what she is (to you) demanding, is
    nothing more nor less then her natural due from you and her daughter.
    
    I don't personally like it, but it's what you're up against.  So before 
    you start saying "NO" to her, make sure you and her have the
    opportunity to understand that culturally you both are going to be 
    in for a lot of problems. 
    
    Good Luck! You'll need it!
    
    Skip

    As a Chinese immigrant, I can say that the situation is not typical at
    all.  I think you just happen to hit the "die hard Chinatown crowd".
    Not that I am saying there is anything wrong with the "die hards". 
    This is a free country and we all come here to choose a way of life that
    befits us.
    
    But none of my Chinese friends are "die hards".  If there is anything
    to say about their family structures, it is that they are all different
    (and none of them live with their parents unless it is a matter of
    responsibility.  And no, most of them won't send their aging parents to
    nursing homes, I will admit to that).  While many of the "die hards" 
    born in the U.S.A citizens are more "Chinese" than the Chinese in China, 
    some of us fresh off the boat immigrants are probably more "Westernly 
    cultured" and understand more about Dante, Shakespear, and Beethoven than 
    your average white middle class Americans.  That does not mean I reject 
    my Chinese heritage.  On the contrary, I think I am a Taoist at the core.  
    Let nature takes its own course.  If I prefer T.S. Eliot to Li Bo, so be 
    it.  But like Beethoven's music, the Taoist philosophy is perhaps too 
    universal to merely belong to one culture.  Do I worry about the 
    preservation of the Chinese culture?  Frankly no, there are over one 
    billion people on the other side of the glob to carry that on.  I think 
    almost all my Chinese friends have this attitude.
           
    I am afraid what I said here has very little to do with Asian or even
    Chinese mother in-laws.  But something inside compels me to say
    something about the stereotyping that has been going on here in this note.
    
    Eugene  

oh my...a FOB calling himself an FOB...will wonders never cease? :-)

    I think you you jumped the gun a bit Eugene... Or maybe I left the
    wrong impression... My first wife was a San Francisco Chinese gal...
    (What you call a "hard core") my statement of "As I understand it,
    this is typical behavior" is based on other White/Asian/Oriental
    marriages, (Not just Chinese, but also Philipino, Japanese, Korean,
    and Maylasian[hope I spelled it right].  I didn't mean to imply that 
    all of these are normal.  And for the record when I say "AS I
    understand it" I mean from what I've seen of other guys like me in the 
    military who have married into Asian/Oriental marriages.  I also want
    to point out that I DID say that my statement was not "All Inclusive" 
    that there are exceptions to both cultures as well as veriations.
    I also stated that these opinions belonging to the inlaws were neither 
    right nor wrong just different from my own.  
    
    Now I'd like to state that if I did in fact come off with an answer
    that was sterio typing you or anyone else, I'm most sincerely sorry for
    it because I didn't not mean it to be that way.  
    
    Skip

    Um make that
    
    Did Not mean... 
    
    Scratch the double negative....
    
    Skip

    Skip, don't worry about it.  There is certainly some truth in what you
    wrote, and I wasn't least offended by it.  I just had a feeling 
    after reading the string that much of this note is one sided and felt
    like saying something.
    
    Eugene
    
    P.S. By the way, what is FOB?

Yeah,...at school, there were several factions in the Chinese club.
Mostly, there were the FOB's and ABC's (American-born Chinese).
When a term was used by the other group, it was considered an insult.


B.

    And I thought the American Indians where rough on each other....
    
    Sheesh!
    
    Skip

    re .25,
    
    Ben what school is that?  How come I have never encountered such
    problems before?
    
    Eugene

 >>  re .25,
 >>   
 >>   Ben what school is that?  How come I have never encountered such
 >>   problems before?
  
	Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, 80-84...

	The student union came pretty close to disbanding the entire 
	club because of all the infighting going on.  I wrote the new
	club consitutition to enable each "group" to have an equal say
	in the club.  

	The people in the club were never really good at "valuing differences".
	There were the Americanized undergraduates who wanted to get out and 
	meet people, (that is, have parties and invite other college Chinese
	clubs over).  The graduate students were typicallly from overseas
	and married (with kids sometimes).  They were more into cultural 
	events.  And then, there were the ABC's, the people from Taiwan,
	the people from the PROC, and "everyone else". :-)  No one group felt
	that their views and interests were being equally represented.  Once,
	one of the club officers used the term, "ABC", during a club meeting.
	We almost had a riot.

	B.