Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Hey, forget all this "friend" cr*p.  It's a farce.

RE:    So I don't know what my feelings are.  
    
    
    All your answers lie inside you, but it may be interesting to compare
    those with the answers that are externally offerred.

    
    	re: .0
    
    	In a nutshell.....yes, they can.
    

    > My question is "Can men and women just be friends?".
                                                                  
     My answer to this is. yes, men and women can be "just friends". But,
    something else you said interests me:
    
    > So, I don't know what my feelings are. I do know that I feel angry
    at myself for expecting too much out of  not only her but all my
    friends.
    
     I feel much like you do or I did in the past. I think the difference for
    me was I found that if I placed expectations on my friends or any
    relationships I had, I would find disappointment at times when my
    expectations were not lived up to. Because of this realization I find
    myself happier in many of my relationships.
    
     Friends sometimes grow apart and then grow together again and then
    apart etc..etc.  For example, I've had a friend for 14 years and in
    that time we went through highschool, college, a rockband, a wife (his
    x not mine) a physical fight, a year of seperation (no phone calls,
    letters etc.) and a humbling apology. True this is a male I'm talking
    about and your note is about male/female friendship but my point is 
    friends when built on a solid foundation endure many things waxing and
    waning all along.
    
     I don't intend to burst your bubble, this is the longest reply I'll
    probably ever write and I feel I can relate to you very well on this
    subject. My next comment my not seem to be on your side but I have to
    say it. It kind of sounds like you started to feel more than a "basic"
    friendship early on and an indication to that was talking about your
    physical feelings for her (to her). That right there puts your
    "friendly" intentions in a different perspective. One she probably
    wasn't ready for or never ever intended. So, if your friendship is as
    solid as you say it is then let it go. The proof is in the pudding, if
    she values your friendship she'll be back, some how regardless of your
    physical innnuendos.
    
     My explanation of the term "basic" friendship used earlier in my reply
    is as follows. Friendship is many things. Poets write about it
    frequently and make it sound as deep as a water well. While a
    friendship my draw people closer, there are also boundries that must be
    observed, out of respect for there nature.
    
    _da
    
    
    _da
      
     
    

    For what it's worth:
    
    I've had male "friends" before where the relationship has been strictly
    platonic and fun.  One time, the friend seemed to have hit "rock
    bottom" where relationships were concerned, was in despair about ever
    finding the right person.  So he sort of "latched on" to me and I ended
    up becoming his romantic ideal.  It was a very uncomfortable feeling,
    especially when those feeling aren't reciprocated.  When this friend
    was finally in a good relationship, he and I returned to being Just
    Friends and it became easy for me once again.
    
    I guess what I"m trying to say is, is it "convenient" for you to be
    sort of in love with her at this point in your life.  Not because there
    isn't anyone "better" arouned, but because you don't like the idea of
    being without a romantic relationship.  That's what you have to ask
    yourself.  Some people feel like they are only valid as a person in the
    eyes of society in general when they are in a relationship.  They don't
    feel "whole" unless there's an SO around.  Friendships are built on
    give and take, but when you end up being the one giving all the time,
    that's when it's time to re-evaluate the friendship.  Like all
    relationships, it isn't worth it if you are always the one giving and
    the friend or SO is the one always taking.
    
    Good luck ...
    
    Tammi

    
    My previous comment may be a bit incomplete, but I wanted to add
    something.
    Friendship with a male or female travel along the same lines. The only
    difference is they are of opposite sex. This brings a very natural
    curiosity to a male/female friendship. Keeping it a friendship means
    abstaining from sex. If you were friends then had sex you would be on
    some level, whether your relationship leans more towards just friends
    or not, lovers.
    Case in point; I knew a girl for seven years. "Friends" not "just
    friends". We had a friendship but we also slept together, so that put
    the relationship at a different level ie: "Lovers" (to a point) but
    friends the rest of the way. We are talking about a relationship that
    lasted a long time for what it was. 
    

    I can relate to this situation---only from the females point of
    view.  I had a very close friend who one day said he had stronger
    feelings and wanted more out of the relationship.  I didn't want
    this at all.
    
    I watched this friend get eaten up with jealousy every time I spoke
    of another man.
    
    I ended up sparing him more pain by drifting away and only keeping in
    touch once a month or so.  He eventually found someone special to him
    and we are now close again.
    
    
    
                                      L.J.

    You can't be "friends" with a woman you love while she's making
    love with someone else.  It'll kill you.

    Yes, friendship do exist, but it is extremelly rare.  I am talking of
    strictly friendship, no other attachments, certainly no intimacy.  I've
    had a male friend for 16 years now, (am happily married for over 26
    years) and our friendship have gone through many problems, changes in 
    geographies, went through a serious heart break over his girlfriend... 
    the friendship itself, never suffered or was altered by a change of 
    location, or by any of those problems, up to the moment, we are as good a
    friend as we ever were over these 15 years... we visit whenever there
    is an opportunity, we enjoy our visits or get togethers and we have not
    found, yet, a reason to alter or break this friendship... why? we are
    great friends and will continue being friends till God wills... it is
    great to know that somewhere you have a friend to trust and to find
    help if in need... 

    
    
    Will the basenoter please put a response in so we know what your
    thoughts are?
    
    _da
    
    

	
	 Yes, yes, and yes again.  I have the most wonderful loving best
	friend ( Hi Roger ) that a gal could have.  We have been best friends
	for over 10 yrs.  I see the problem that you are having, I have been
	there myself, afew times...;').  It happens when one person wants MORE,
	than the other person is willing/can give.  Unless, you can *really*
	just be friends, it can be very hurtful for you.

		So  the answer is YES, men and women can be friends - if thats
	all.  and no, not if one cares and one doesn't.  

		Good luck to you.  ON the positive side I really have had 
	relationships where I cared and the other person didn't and I brought 
	myself (eventually) to that level of "just friendship"  and we are 
	just friends and will continue to be.  But getting to that level is 
	tough.

	IMHO - Mikki    
    

    
    ...expectations.
    
    I have one or two tremendously close male friends who are 'just'
    friends. [What a phrase...'just' friends...when that is truly one of
    the most difficult and rewarding things to be...]
    
    Anyway...yes, it happens. But I think it only happens when the
    relationship is based on mutual giving not mutual expectations. In my
    mind [a crowded barn-like affair most days...], as soon as I ramble
    over into 'expectations' then there is something besides 'just'
    friendship...there are any any number of other things that wrap
    themselves around other types of close relationships [and not all
    sexual]. I have a very close and dear male person who is ever so much
    more than just friends...but is not an intimate sexual partner...the
    distinction being that I can expect certain kinds of responses from
    him, but I never expect such things from friends. That is not to say
    that one doesn't _get_ those kinds of things from friends...but one
    deosn't, I think, expect to.
    
    Now...that was clear as an April mud puddle, wasn't it?
    
    [sigh]
    
    Melinda

    
    I could see what happened in .7 as happening in .0.
    
    I felt the base noter didn't want her as "just a friend" and she knew
    that... didn't want it... and gave him the ole brush.
    

Yes, they can be just friends. One of my best friends is a man. We've known
each other for about 15 years. We were rooommates back in our hometown. Lots
of things have happened in those 15 years but we've been friends right along.
We're both married (not to each other) and even tho' we moved out of that
hometown we ended up living within 15 miles of each other so we can still
pick up the phone and chat or visit each other. We talked about maybe being
more than friends once but then we decided it would be more like incest. I
think it would've ruined a good friendship. 

Jenna

	Difference in sex is just another factor in the complexity of
	a friendship.  Sometimes it can be dealt with, and sometimes
	it can't.  I've had friendships with women that just didn't
	pan out because of the added complexity, and yet my closest
	and dearest friends are women.

	For a successful friendship, both people have to have the same
	perception of the friendship.  This means you need to be straight
	with one another about how you feel, and this is especially
	critical in a friendship where feelings may cover such a wide
	range.

	For the base noter:  be patient and caring.  Your friend may
	have difficulty sorting everything out for now.  She might
	be able to sort it all out eventually, and wouldn't it be nice
	to be able to pick where you left off?

	-Jim

    Thanks for all of your comments.   A lot of them were insightful
    
    I want to add a few things.   I already understand a lot of what you
    are saying in your replies.  This has happened with a couple of other
    friends,  & one of them was with a good male friend (no, I wasn't "in
    love" with him  - we drifted apart & then back again).   My friendships
    are very important  to me (obviously) & I am lucky to have a few close
    friendships with both  men & women.   .2 Hit it right on the head.   
    My answers to my problem  are inside of *me*.   I already know how I'm
    going to deal with it but I wanted to get some feedback from others -
    especially women.   This particular friend & I used to have many
    discussions about how men & women  think & act & to an extent, she & I
    act differently.   She continuosly thinks about every aspect of her
    life while I tend to see things in black & white.   I'm pretty certain
    that she is probably just as confused as I am about this.   I tend to
    confront things head on & she tends to think about things for a long
    time before she can act.
    
    When she & I first met (through mutual friends), we "hit it off"
    because  we had many common interests - one of them was a free spirit -
    in fact, both of us were actively dating other people & both of us
    weren't interested in a relationship with *anyone*.   I don't know
    exactly what happened but I found myself very attracted to her.    I
    mean, friendships/relationships are very "natural" with me.   They just
    happen.   I wasn't looking to "fall in love" with her or anything at
    all like that.   What we both agree on was the irony that each of us
    got to know each other so well because there was never any "pressure"
    like there is when you are "dating" someone.   We never tried to
    impress each other or play any of the stupid games.   It was just a
    classic case of bad timing for both of us.
    
    In fact, the ironic thing is that this has happened to me before only
    the shoes were on the other feet.   A woman who I was friends with
    wanted to be more than friends & I didn't feel the same way.   I guess
    I "drifted away" for while until she got very angry & told me her
    feelings & now we're friends again.
    
    I don't think I expressed what I wanted to say very well initially.  
    Yes, I do care for her.   It's been almost a year since I told her my
    feelings & I dealt with those feelings right after I confided in her &
    was rebuffed. I can deal with my feelings & I can deal with her just
    being a friend.   What I am bummed about is that it doesn't seem like
    she can deal with that in the present.   However, when she was
    physically away (on another continent) all of a sudden, it's like
    nothing ever happened.   I guess what I want is a resolution from her
    that:
    
          1. We can be friends.
          2. I can be trusted enough not to "take advantage" of her
             friendship.
          3. We can be mature enough to discuss this without having to
             avoid the subject or each other.
    
    I guess the reality is that our friendship seems to be gone.   I've
    given it a lot of thought & I'm starting to realize that even if we
    become friends again, we'll never be able to have the same kind of
    relationship as before because we'll always be cautious & "defensive"
    around each other.   Yes, I do love her & care for her but not in the
    romantic sense.   Yes, I have realized that all I can do is walk away &
    let her live her life because I have to live my life for myself.   I
    know that I can face myself.   I'm not so sure about her but then, it's
    her life to live.   I wouldn't want it any other way.

It seems replies here treat 'friendship' and 'romantic relationship'
as a dichotomy - you have either one or the other. 

I think that there is overlap. 'Friendship' is a subset of
'relationship'. It must first be present in any case. Then, it may
blossom into a romantic relationship, or it may not. But (at least
by **my** definition of 'relationship'), there is no such thing a
relationship without deep friendship. 

So, the question in .0 is not whether you can have one or the other,
but, rather, whether it is possible to stay good friends and never
cross the boundary into the romantic mode. It's simple when both
friends do not wish to advance to the romantic stage. If one does
and the other doesn't, well, then, they can discuss it (that's what
friends are for). Because the issues are fairly clear cut, it's easy
to agree on a solution. Depending on the situation, the answer could
be either 'yes' or 'no'. 

I've been there a couple of times, myself. In one case, the lady
explained exactly where she drew the line - if I wanted more, she'd
rather I kept it to myself. Twenty five years later, we are still
very good friends. In another case, the lady told me to go jump in
the lake, because she wanted more that I was able to give. I haven't
seen her since, but we do correspond from time to time and she knows
(I hope) that I am here for her, should she need me. 

The bottom line for the base noter: if you're as good friends as you 
seem to think, then a discussion will clarify what either of you wants. 
Then, the rest is up to yourself. Personally, I tend to make
finalized, hard decisions, then stick by them.

-- Ron

    I'll argue the previous note, from personal experience.
    
    I've been in relationships that had no friendship.  One particularly
    where I loved the woman very much and it hurt to have to let that 
    go.  But the reason for letting go was that we were NOT friends and 
    we were hurting each other because of it.  We DID love each other 
    very deeply but for our own sanity it became obvious that we had to 
    let go of each other.  We could still be together, if I'd decided 
    to handle things differently, she was willing to sacrifice the lack
    of friendship for the sake of the feelings we had for each other...
    I was too for a while, but not being able to confide in her as a 
    friend was hurting me.  She didn't mind it.  I did and eventually
    I gave up on the love we had and walked away.  I still hurt over 
    that and always will but I also feel that I made the right dicision.
    
    Now for the base note.... Sir you've pointed out some very 
    insightful things about your relationship with the woman you speak of.
    My suggestion is simple.... take them, write them down, and give them 
    to her.  Then walk away.  If she is truly a friend, then she'll
    evaluate what you write come to a decision and rekindle the friendship
    you cheerish so much.  If not, then you can walk away knowing in your 
    heart, that you at least TRIED to reestablish the friendship.  
    
    AS for the "never be the same again" comment.  If a friendship is real,
    then the friendship grows, changes, adapts, and pulsates like a living 
    thing.  It gets sick at times and it gets better.  Right now it's 
    sick.  It will either live, or die.... but regardless, it will be 
    like any friendship and never be the same as it was yesterday, or 
    will be tomorrow.  If it IS the same then it's stagnant and you should
    leave it behind.  The old saying of "You havn't changed a bit" is a 
    bold face lie, covered by changes in both of you that are gradual
    enough to go unnoticed.
    
    Skip

    When I was in college, my best friend was female (Val).  She was my
    "best man" at my wedding, and she continued to be my best friend up
    until the time that the person who was to be my wife became my best
    friend.
    
    Val's and my relationship sounds quite a bit like .0.  At one point I
    wanted the relationship to be "more than friends" and Val didn't. 
    Shortly after that, Val moved to Austria for a year.
    
    While she was in Austria, we wrote back and forth twice or so a month
    and our friendship grew considerably during that time.  While she was
    gone, I started dating someone, and it was like a wall was lifted
    between Val and I.  Our friendship grew even stronger because she was
    no longer worried in the back of her mind about my being interested
    romantically.
    
    Once my girlfriend and I broke up, I told Val that I wanted our
    friendship to continue on the same level and told her not to worry
    about any romantic interest.
    
    When I started dating my wife (Mary), I started drifting away from Val
    mostly because I was confiding more and more in Mary and didn't have a
    need to confide in Val.
    
    IMHO eveyone needs at least one really close friend that they can
    confide in.  I personally found that friend to be female, and I feel
    sorry for anyone who doesn't have such a friend or who limits
    themselves from having such a friendship.

    	Re .16
    
    	I guess I've cue'd off your mentioning of "black and white" 
    thinking...facing issues "head on"...friendships are "very important"
    and a "natural" to me, etc.
    
    	Maybe she's dissuaded by the somewhat glaring intensity of your
    "Look, either we're going to be friends (at the same level we once
    were) or we're not - I've got to know *now* - else I'll get myself 
    emotionally all bummed out" request / expectation of her.
    
    	Whenever someone's feelings rest upon the actions of another
    person, it places a tremendous responsibility on _them_. One of 
    the reasons you hear it suggested that you dont do this is because
    - often - others will seek to avoid that particular responsibility.
    This could be what's happening with her - maybe she's backing off
    as she senses this from you.
    
    	If you dont expect anything from another person, you'll never
    be disappointed - or so the saying goes. Another says expect only
    the best from others and give your best to them. You can feel your
    feelings and express them to another, but is it really "your best" 
    to hand all "the responsibility for them" over to someone else?
    
    	You do this when you become "needy"; in your case you dont really
    "want" a resolution from her, you *need* one in order to feel OK
    again. The proof is that you apparently need it - either way it goes.
    
    	There are different kinds of needs that people have. Some are
    healthy and appropriate, while others are "dysfunctional". (You can
    tell a dysfunctional need when it continually messes you up in life)
    The need to place "how you feel" on the shoulders of "someone elses' 
    actions" (I just happened to go way out of my way to attend a party
    - that's not for me - on *my* birthday - so I can feel disappointed when 
    I dont get a card - or feel great that she remembered) is a particularly
    dysfunctional one.
    
    	Get yourself to a CODA meeting.
    
    	Joe

    Yes it is possible. You just have to psyche yourself that you are NOT
    going to develop feelings for the other person. It does work.  I have
    many good male friends and that is all they are JUST FRIENDS.
    
    
    Lynne

    
    >You just have to psyche yourself that you are NOT
    >going to develop feelings for the other person.
    
    are your friends all people you have no feelings fer?
    
    thats a strange definiton of friend (to me anyway)..
    

    ... and with friends like that who needs enemies.
    
    I think it was Picasso who said that his friends had to love him
    enough to want to sleep with him.
    
    But who's to say?  Some like it tepid.

RE:  Note 1163.22 by USWS::HOLT "quiche and ferns" 

    
>    >You just have to psyche yourself that you are NOT
>    >going to develop feelings for the other person.
    
>    are your friends all people you have no feelings fer?
    
>    thats a strange definiton of friend (to me anyway)..
    

   That's the problem of just plucking things out of context like that...


   							Terza

    I think Lynne meant NOT to develop ROMANTIC Feelings for the other 
    person.
    
    SKip

    We can see the good intentions here and also the sarcasm...
    
    and yes, I perceive that the meaning is ROMANTIC feelings, anybody 
    with an average amount of common sense would understand that friendship 
    must include "feelings", but not ROMANTIC feelings, then it would not
    be "friendship" but something else.

    re: .20
    
    I understand your viewpoint, but it is way off-base in my situation.  
    First, I have never put any pressure on her before or after I told her
    how I felt a year ago.   I was simply honest with her & with myself.
    
    My friend returned to the country about 2 months ago.   Prior to her
    return she wrote several letters informing me how she was looking
    forward to being able to pick up our friendship again.   She was
    writing all sorts of personal things in her life - things that you
    would share with a friend, not just a casual acquaintance.   When she
    returned, she called me up within hours of  landing at the airport.  
    We talked for hours - about life in general, *not*  about her & me.  
    At that point in time, I was already satisfied with just being her
    friend again.   I never came out & said, "Hey, I'm annoyed with you" or
    "I want to be more than your friend" or anything like that.   As far as
    I was concerned, I thought we were past all of that.  From all 
    indications (in her mail & our face-to-face get-together), I thought
    that we would be able to just be friends again.   That's all I wanted.  
    And if it will clear things up a little, I currently am in a
    relationship with somebody.
    
    Aside from that meeting & one telephone call I made to her a week ago,
    I haven't been in contact with her.   She did blow me off for some
    plans that we made over a month ago.   I have previously remarked that
    I have "expectations" of my friends.   I treat my friends the way I
    "expect" to be treated.   I completely agree with the person who
    replied that you can't have a friendship or relationship if one person
    is always giving & the other one is always taking.   My decision is
    that I'm going to stop making the effort to initiate/continue this
    friendship.   That means I am not going to bother to  call her or for
    that matter, anyone else who says one thing & acts the opposite.
    
    The bottom line is that I have never pressured her or whined or
    complained  about the current situation to her.   She probably has no
    idea that I am disappointed.   My source of displeasure is that all of
    this time, we have both been saying our friendship is important, it
    seems that I am the one who is trying to sustain it so it's time to let
    it go. 
    
    As far as *your* definition of dysfunctional, I guess I must be
    dysfunctional because I "expect" an acknowlegment from a friend on my
    birthday.   Gee, I wish  I could be so "unemotional" & not be
    disappointed but then, I'm a dysfunctional *human* being & this is
    HUMAN_RELATIONS.   I am sorry, but your parting comment really offended
    me - you don't know me from Adam.   I wish I could be as "human" as you
    but I would rather be "dysfunctional".   Even anonymously, it is hard
    enough to share a personal problem with complete strangers, but I am
    very upset by your suggestion - moreso the tone in which you suggest
    it.
    
    My life has many facets, some are fulfilled by
    friendships/relationships, some are fulfilled by my career, some are
    fulfilled by my interests and activities.   I am content with my life
    overall & I work hard on developing all of my facets.   Right now, I
    have a problem with one of them & decided to seek out the advice of
    people who may have been in a similar situation. I don't consider
    myself dysfunctional in the least bit.  My life has been continuous &
    expanding.    I think I am learning a lot from this incident, as
    upsetting to me as it may be.   I look at it as another hurdle in my 
    life, something to get over, not stumble & fall.
    
    One last thing,  I do know that men & women can be "just friends".   I
    have a good friend who I've known for over 12 years - I introduced her
    to her husband!   She always reminds me that friendship is a 2-way
    street.
    
    Thank you all though, the majority of your comments are very helpful,
    whether I agree with them or not.
    

    re:22
    
    I am married.  I do care about my male freinds very much but as I
    stated that is all that we will ever be is friends.  I have a great
    marriage and it is going to stay that way.

    re: Skip
    
    Thanks! That is exactly what I mean't. I should have been more clearer.
    
    
    
    Lynne ;-)

	Re .27.

	I dont recall defining the term "dysfunctional"... I gave an example
of a dysfunctional need and a way to tell when a need is dysfunctional. You
seem to have your choice of action completely rationalized here in a sarcastic 
context (I guess I must be / I wish I could be) and your "okay-ness" justified 
by the facts (My life has / I am content / I dont consider) - so there's
no point in arguing that!~

	I'm sorry that you were offended by my parting comment and tone, 
though I'm not suprised that you were. Most people who feel that their choices
are completely reasonable and then back themselves up with evidence of 
credibility - yet apparently cant understand "why" some things (they perhaps 
repeatedly do) get them all bummed out - would be. I'm sure sympathy for your 
situation, a focus on "her" and "why she's so fickle", would be more palatable 
to you.

	But hey, it "sounds" like you'll have your life pretty much on the ball
once you get over this hurdle, and that I dont know you from Adam, so how dare 
I *suggest*, eh? Believe it or not, I was trying to help you - tone and all.

	Joe 

I'm responding directly to .0, having read only two or three replies.

My answer is a much-qualified yes.  Right now, my best and longest-standing 
friend outside the DEC community is a middle-aged married woman with 
two children.  We have many common interests; we were tournament bridge 
partners until I put the game aside some years ago; we have been frequent 
deer hunting companions.  Our conversations are always long, 
interesting, fun, and totally candid.  I am always welcome at their house, and 
although her husband and kids are also good friends, she's the one who
is extra special.  There is no jealousy whatsoever from her husband; he
trusts her and he trusts me.

I have had several, not very many, similar relationships over the
years.  So yes, of course men and women can be friends.  There is a
difference between a friend and a "friendly acquaintance", however;
friends do things together and support each other on various levels.

I think the real question is whether a friendship can thrive in the face
of an unfulfilled physical attraction, especially when the attraction is
one-sided.  That's when a kind of pseudo-friendship game can develop;
the two parties might act like friends, but they really have hidden
agendas: the male might feel attracted to the female, she doesn't feel
that way toward him but she encourages his friendship because he is in
some way interesting or useful to her; then he feigns a platonic friendship 
in the hope and belief that she will some day come around just like in the 
movies.  The genders can be transposed, and there are many variants of this
scenario.  I think two people can get caught up in a game like this 
without either party realizing what is happening, and both parties 
feeling that they are acting in good faith.  If the phone calls are 
always instigated by the same person, there's probably something wrong
with the friendship.  

I think a genuine friendship is just barely possible when there is
unfulfilled physical attraction.  It perhaps depends a lot on how
the acquaintance begins.  If it starts with one party initiating a 
flirtation that ultimately turns out to be empty or phony (aka 
bait-and-snitch, or headhunting), friendship isn't going to have much of a
chance.  No friendship can live long without mutual honesty, and playing
mind games is very dishonest indeed.

I remember an attractive woman I knew in Minneapolis.  We met at a Mensa 
meeting, had a very lively and witty conversation, and I called her for 
a date the following morning.  She told me very forthrightly that she 
found me interesting, but was very selective about who she dated.
(Basically, she worked in a field where she met many attractive men with
lots of bucks.)  It's impossible to feel very hurt when a woman is that 
honest with her rejections; it sets clear parameters for the relationship 
and both people know where things stand.  Thus a friendship is possible.
                                             
Craig

    Regarding the question for the topic of this discussion (can men and
    women be 'just' friends) - no!
    
    Many reasons/opinions for this but I have a bad habit of going "on and
    on" and want to spare you.
    
    

Gee...I have alot of women friends who'd disagree with you...

Most of my friends are women...and most of them are relatively
safe from me. :^)

Ben

    
    
    
    
            _MY_ best lovers, have been my best friend.
    Dan

    
    Re: .34
    
    Dan,
    
    After they stop being your lovers, are they still your best
    friends?
    
    Ulla
    

    
    
    
                _WHY_, we stoped our loving ..............
    Dan

    I have one friend who became my lover and we are now very good friends.