Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    If she won't talk to you via the phone, try writing a letter to her,
    Send a bouquet of flowers with an apology explaining how you feel,
    Or just walk away and forget it.  The choice is yours.  But, when one 
    method of communication fails you still have others.  You know where
    she lives, so you can get her address... it's amazing how a well
    written apology accompanied by a few flowers can re-open the lines of 
    communication.... especially if you give her time to think for a while.
    
    Skip

Then again, what message (if any) did Boy leave on the answering machine,
(miserable devices though they be)?

-Jack

re: 1140.2          Boy calls girl, gets answering machine               2 of 2
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                   -< Missing relevent pieces of the story? >-

What if the person simply takes a nice bucnh of posies to the ladies
home, in person ?

Could be the lady isn't home ?

The note sounds nice. If the lady hasn't issues an outright rejection, and
if the "times together" seemed to be good, then why not pursue.

One of my favorite pieces of advice I've heard, was allegedly given to a young
girl who wanted a particularly nice boy to "catch her", was advised to
"..run after him only as fast as needed until he catches you" .. you sure
she's not just playing "hard to get" ?

Desirable middle aged men (38 - 50 +/-) are outnumbered about 10:1 by
equally desirable women. One can be exteremely fussy in this age group, 
especially if the ladies in question are in the same age range ( or older).

-BobE

    Maybe, just MAYBE the lady doesn't want/isn't ready for anything more
    than hand holding.
    
    Hard to get indeed!
    

re .4

Then all she needs to do is say "no/not yet" - this isn't a reason to 
terminate the relationship.  

As noted earlier, not enough information is given.

    > As noted earlier, not enough information is given.
    
    I agree.  Like what it was "boy" asked and _how_ it was asked.  I'm not
    defending her and the way she's handling it...basically my response was
    to the "Playing hard to get" comment.
    
    Lynne
    

My thought was wondering if "more than holding hands" was something on the
order of "let's jump in the sack".  If so, I wouldn't find the reaction
extreme.  It's very hard to recover from such a misstep.

			Steve

    Does getting the answering machine = terminating the relationship? 
    That seems quite a leap of logic to me.  My guess would be the "boy" in
    question feels a mite guilty about his suggestion and is assuming all
    kinds of things because of it.  Did you leave a message on the machine?
    Has she called you back?  
    
    I don't think anyone *ever* needs to apologize for suggesting that a 
    relationship deepen.  I gather from the sound of the basenoter's
    feelings for this woman, he did not simply make a lewd suggestion.
    She may be hungup on many, many issues.  First "new" man since x amount 
    of time, fear that she isn't a Christie Brinkley lookalike, a possible 
    belief, corroborated by life that men bolt, (or fade out) once you bed 
    them...
    
    I'd send the flowers and be patient and prove to her that sex is not
    the whole point of your attentions.  You may be on the up and up,
    (pardon the pun), but you're dealing with a woman who's dealt with men
    other than you.  Empathy - if only men knew how much that quality can
    buy them in the dating game.  
    

re:        <<< Note 1140.3 by AHIKER::EARLY "Bob Early T&N EIC /US-EIS" >>>

> Desirable middle aged men (38 - 50 +/-) are outnumbered about 10:1 by
> equally desirable women.

Not to rathole the basenote, but . . . 


Is this statistic valid?


Or even partially so?


And if it is, Where are they keeping themselves? :^)

-Jack

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                   -< Is it true that statistics don't lie? >-

No, but statisticians do.

>Or even partially so?
>And if it is, Where are they keeping themselves? :^)

In Massachusetts and in New Hampshire in a group called "The Singles Life",
in DEC notes files called "Singles", and in DEC called "Womannotes"  ...

In my opinion, this 'statistic' is based on very empirical evidence, and may
no longer be true. With so many women "coming out", the numbers may have 
diminished to 5:1 or something like that.

Of course, my opinion of desirable is based on intelligence and comaptibility,
and not "looks" or "sack hopping" .. although neither prevented me from talking 
to some of them .... ;^)

In point of fact, places like New Mexico, whose male populatins have been
decimated by war, and have no real "Indusrial COmplexes" like Mas,NY,PA
to attract more, the F:M ratio is literally something like 12:1, 
where in Alaska its the reverse, where the m:f is mre like 3:1

The study of this crap is called Demographics, adn its done followijg
every census ... it tells the draft board where the boys are ... so thay 
can make them into men ..

-Bob

    "Eligible" is probably an appropriate word to use for the statistic.
    
    I know some people include "Eligible" as a prerequisite of "Desirable"
    but some don't.
    
    ed
    (Who is "E", and in his opinion, also "D")

    Drop it and her.  She has your phone number.  I'm sure you've left
    it on her machine a number of times.  If and when she ever becomes
    interested again she'll let you know.  If not, oh well, move on!
    
    
                               L.J.

    Re: 12
    
    I had a similar situation happen to me only it was the other way
    around.  I did what you suggested.....I dropped the situation and
    him as well thinking - "there's lot's other fish in the sea"....
    It hurt for awhile, however - I'm better off for it.
    
    -Lynn
    

    Sending a note might not be such a good idea... personal experience
    time:  Back when I was in college, I went out with a girl (sic) for
    a year.  We broke up and stayed "friends".  Well, one day she started
    getting very moody and sullen, and when I tried to talk to her, she'd
    say "go away".  I figured, "OK, she's having a bad time, I'll try
    again later".  After a few more attempts, I figured I'd dash off a
    note to her which she could read at her leisure.  Big mistake.
    
    It turned out that at about the time of the first "go away", she
    decided to start completely hating my guts... but she couldn't
    come out and tell me that for some reason, so she just kept putting
    me off.  Finally, when I sent her the note, she had enough and 
    started the ball rolling towards filing a formal harassment complaint
    against me!  (Remember; not ONCE had she clearly communicated to me
    just what was on her mind, and I was proceeding under the erroneous
    assumption that we were still friends).  Unlike Bush and Saddam, we
    were able to come to a peaceful resolution of our crisis involving
    my unconditional surrender and complete withdrawal from her immediate
    vicinity 8-(
    
    The point of the matter is, if your communications are getting through
    to her and she's deliberately ignoring them, then trying harder to
    get through to her is quite likely to blow up in your face.  The reason
    I referred to the female in the story above as a "girl" is that this 
    behavior is quite immature; nonetheless, even middle-aged people are
    capable of being juvenile about some things.  Mature or no, this could
    land you in a heap o' trouble if you're not careful about it...
    
    Of course, to muddy the waters even further, there's another
    possibility:  Does this woman live alone?  I've known it to happen more
    than once where someone's housemate will get the messages off the 
    answering machine and then either accidentally or deliberately "forget"
    to forward certain ones to their intended destination...
    
    Just a thought or two...
    
    --jim
    

    
    
    
    >>    ed
    >>(Who is "E",
    
    
    Hey, you are not!  GeeWhiz, people going around, stealing my identity,
    I mean *really*! when will it end?  When *will* it end?
    
    
    E 
    

    "E" was for eligible in my case.
    
    Hey you need to sign off as:
    
    E(tm) Grace
    
    :-)
    
    ed

    
    If you don't mind me asking...is E your name?
    
    
    bonnie

    "E"'s name is actually E Grace.
    
    The E is not silent, as I understand it (being a reader in another
    conference she participates in.)
    
    

    E is my first name.
    
    I just sign E Grace so I won't be confused with some other E!
    
    E Grace

	The "E" in "E Grace" is not silent, and neither is E!


						--D

    
    thanks!

    I would just like to know what happened ??????? It really chaps my hide
    kwhen the stories are not finished.
    
    
    y

    This is a reply from the Anonymous author of .0.
    
    *************************************************************************

	Boy thanks everyone for their viewpoints.  Boy often finds there
	are many ways to look at and interpret the same situation. It 
	helps to see possible interpretations.  Boy happy to have 
	the many viewpoints provided by friendly noters available to 
	him.

	Boy has chosen to send flowers (on Valentine's Day ) as 
	suggested by .1 and .8 and to be patient.  Girl called 
	the next day to say,  "Thanks."

	Boy called Girl on Tuesday to ask for weekend date,  but Girl 
	had already made, "plans for the weekend."  Boy will try this
	one more time before giving it up and will explain this to 
	Girl.

	This weekend?  Who knows.  Perhaps,  Boy meets new Girl?
	Or perhaps Boy rents old Tarzan movie video and continues 
	study of English grammar.
    

    Well, at least you're keeping your sense of humour over the situation!
    
    I'm curious to learn how the whole thing ends overall.  Keep us posted 
    as to what happens.  
    
    Skip

    
    boy needs to learn how to take a hint...

    re .26, I think you're right.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    A person shouldn't have to "take a hint."  People should be honest and
    upfront enough to communicate their desires to another person.
    
    If the woman doesn't want to go out with this person, she should say so
    instead of playing what could be construed as a mindgame.
    
    Yes....I most definitely feel that "hoping someone gets the hint" is a
    mindgame.  (Unfortunately, it's one that MANY of us play sometime in
    our lives).
    
    ;-(
    
    kath

    re.28
    Agreed, there's nothing at all wrong or difficult about telling the
    truth in the long run it is probably easier than playing the avoidance
    game. My personal feeling is the "rejection" is much easier to take and
    there are fewer bad feelings when you are told rather than discovering
    that the person is no longer interested. 
    
    Just give it to me straight.
    
    -j

    
    What happened now ?
    
    Did you invite her and she accepted ?
    
    Carina

    Well, in a way I agree with .28 and .29 but in all honesty.... I hate
    to hear...
    
    You're really a nice guy but.........
    
    I at least hope "She" can find another line to use.
    
    Skip

    re .28, and .29, I don't know, I *don't* think it's very easy to tell
    someone that they have a certain personal characteristic or habit that
    I find so objectionable that I don't want to date them.  Often it's
    something they can't even help, and if I point it out to them it may
    hurt their feelings and injure their self-esteem, for what?  For
    nothing, really, because just because a certain thing bothers me
    doesn't mean it will bother most women.  I'd rather just give them a
    chance to take the hint first, like I think the woman in .0 with the
    answering machine did.
    
    I'd also prefer someone give me a chance to take a hint in a
    similar circumstance rather than blurt out something about me, that I
    probably can't help, and that might not bother other people.  I don't
    think that every situation we stumble upon in life merits *the truth*
    even if it hurts somebody for no reason.
    
    Being able to "take a hint" is part of being able to relate to other
    people, as far as I'm concerned.  It's a social skill most of us learn
    by the time we're 20.
    
    Lorna
     

    re.32
    
        I agree.  I have yet to find a gentle way to tell someone I don't
    want to date them.
    
        I believe in honesty...but I also believe there are cases where
    not being *completely* honest is the best road to go.
    
    
                                   L.J.

    re.32
    When I find something about someone to be beyond my acceptance level
    I don't consider them to have a problem instead it is my inability
    to accept that is a problem. We all have different likes and dislikes
    for someone to display undesireable qualitys to me may be the worlds
    biggest turn-on to another. Example: I don't like the punk look at all
    never have never will but I know alot of people that find it ok and
    would be happy to date them. That is my problem and possible loss not
    theirs. Ownership of your feelings is the key. I have managed to
    remain friends with the majority of the woman I have broken up with.
    The opposite is true where women have broken up with me and felt that
    the whole cause of our incompatibility was me and felt the need to
    tell me at length what all of my shortcomings were.
    
    -j

           <<< Note 1140.34 by CSC32::GORTMAKER "Alas, babylon..." >>>
             -< You don't have to burn 'em at a stake to breakup >-

	I agree with the above. All you have to say is that you do not
	want to continue the relationship. I think going into a detailed
	list of what you think is wrong with the other person is arrogant
	and rude and completely uncalled for! "getting the answering
	machine" and other such "hints" can be interpreted in so many ways
	I think it is really cruel to rely on it. 

	IMHO,

	amr

    re .35, There is a difference between breaking up with a longtime
    relationship and telling someone you have dated once or twice that you
    don't think you have anything in common.  I would never leave a
    longtime relationship to just take a hint.  But, I don't always feel
    that I need to have a heart-to-heart with someone I've only seen once
    or twice.  I would never be rude and give them a list of things I find
    wrong with them, but I might hope they could just take a hint.
    
    In a way, if you aren't going to tell the truth anyway, if you're just
    planning to give them some sugarcoated version of why you don't want to
    date them such as, "Well, I just don't think we have enough in common,
    blah, blah, blah.." then I don't think there's much difference between
    that sugar coated version and the just trying to evade them and hope
    they can take a hint.
    
    Lorna
    

>    In a way, if you aren't going to tell the truth anyway, if you're just
>    planning to give them some sugarcoated version of why you don't want to
>    date them such as, "Well, I just don't think we have enough in common,
>    blah, blah, blah.." then I don't think there's much difference between
>    that sugar coated version and the just trying to evade them and hope
>    they can take a hint.
    
	Well, I don't agree with this paragraph. There is a big difference
	between the sugar-coated version and the evasion/hope they take the
	hint - the sugar-coated version ends it right then and there. The
	other person can then take the opportunity to move on to bigger and
	better things. The other way, it can take weeks and, in my opinion,
	have a lot more mental wear and tear for the other person.    

	IMHO, amr

    re.37
    Exactly by sending a clear the other person can stop wasteing his time
    and move on to better things.
    
    -j

    re: .38
    
    I agree, make it clear.  Actually the basenote situation demostrates
    this quite well.  If she doesn't want to see him and drops hints, and
    then he goes to the trouble to send flowers, he's gonna be wasting his
    effort when she could have saved him the trouble. Hints are ambiguous
    and subject to misinterpretation.  From my personal experience they
    cause much more pain than the direct approach.
    
    Mary

A friend and I were discussing the pros and cons of using a dating agency.  The 
main concern we thought was how to let down the ones you don't like, especially
when that might be very, very soon into the contact.  

If someone writes and you think - God, what a jerk, then at least you could 
write back and say you've met someone or something...

But if you write to someone (so they know you are still single) and then they
write back, then you haven't got that excuse.

If someone writes and encloses a photo and you just can TELL by looking that
you wouldn't get on - how do you write back and put them off.  If you haven't
met then a rejection at that stage can only be on their looks and to me thats
the most hurtful thing to be rejected on as you can't do anything about it.

And the chances are if people are using a dating agency they are already at a
fairly low point in the self-esteem stakes anyway...

So do you go through with the meeting, just so you can pinpoint a 'fault' you
can blame... or do you just say "sorry, you don't look right".


Can anyone suggest a more tactful way of doing it?



Xtine

    
    
    >So do you go through with the meeting, just so you can pinpoint a
    >'fault' you can blame... or do you just say "sorry, you don't look 
    >right".
    
    >Can anyone suggest a more tactful way of doing it?
    
    First off, the problem that you're not attracted to someone is YOUR
    PROBLEM, not the problem of the other person.  Our society is so messed
    up in thinking that someone else can cause you to feel a certain way.
    
    If YOU don't like guys with red hair, or YOU don't like guys with thick
    glasses......if you don't like guys with WHATEVER, it is YOUR PROBLEM,
    not theirs.  They have done nothing to you, they have done nothing
    WRONG.  They are simplying BEING THEMSELVES......
    
    You want a more TACTFUL way?  Try being honest with yourself and
    realizing that when you aren't attracted to someone it's because of
    something inside of YOU rather than blaming it on the other person.
    
    
    >And the chances are if people are using a dating agency they are
    >already at a fairly low point in the self-esteem stakes anyway...
    
    Actually, you're wrong....a LOT of people with very HIGH self esteem
    use dating agencies too.  There's nothing WRONG with it, there's nothing
    BAD about it.  It's actually a safe way to meet people you have things
    in common with.
    
    
    
    (Can you tell that I'm flaming?!?! ;-) )  Take responsibility for
    yourself and your actions....You'll respect yourself a WHOLE lot more
    and others will respect you too.  To be "tactful", be honest...but be
    honest with yourself AND with the other person.  
    
    
    kathy

Sorry, I didn't think I was being dishonest... unless I'm mistaken I am trying
to find a nice way of telling the other person about my honesty...


If someone wrote to me after only seeing my picture and said "I'm sorry, I've 
got a problem 'cos I don't like fat people" - it wouldn't make me feel any 
better about being fat - it still means that person is saying "I don't like you 
cos you're fat"... so its THEIR problem... no consolation really.


But if we'd met, and they'd kept quiet about my fatness, but wrote afterwards
and said something like "I don't think we're suited" then fine... could be any
number of reasons...

The issue we were discussing is that if you haven't met the other person you 
can't implement (for want of a better word) the previous paragraph.


And I guess the bit about self-esteem comes from the fact that we are thinking 
of joining a dating agency, because we don't seem to be meeting people socially,
and I guess maybe we have low self-esteem.  I don't think dating agencies are
as common in the UK, and are certainly still not an "accepted" method of meeting
people - over here I think they are still seen as being something used only when
you can't meet someone any other way... and therefore seen as a "last resort".

See EURO_SINGLES as an example of the difference in attitudes to meeting people
'anonymously' as opposed to the USSINGLES activity.

Sorry I upset you so much,  I didn't mean it to be patronising.

Have I made myself any clearer?


Xtine

    Kathy
    
    I essentially agree with you in re it is the problem of the perciever
    not the one being percieved...
    
    
    I've made a lot of friends of the opposite sex at work and in notes
    over the years. Many of them were people who appearance wise I'd
    not looked at twice when I was dating. But since I am not looking
    for a romance I ended up making friends with some very interesting
    people who'd I'd never have given a chance to years ago.
    
    something about books and covers I think.... ;-)
    
    it is true that some people are total mismatches and it is probably
    a major waste of time for a shy quaker weaver to accept a date
    for a heavy metal concert with a biker, ;-)
    
    Bonnie

    Xtine,
    
    It sounds to me like you're looking for an *excuse* to say no.  You
    don't need an excuse.  You can just say "No" or "I'm no longer
    interested" or "You're not my type".  You are not responsible for
    coming up with an *excuse* to try and make them feel better.  In
    reality I think the excuse is to make *you* feel better.
    
    I tend to agree with Kathy and Bonnie. You might want to ask yourself
    why you want to reject someone based entirely on looks?  That's the
    part you *are* responsible for.
    
    Mary

    re .41
    
    I agree with you wholeheartedly, Kathy!!!  The attitude that there
    is something *wrong* with other people (in any context) because
    they don't suit someone else just REALLY BOTHERS ME!!!  There is
    nothing wrong with being YOU (as long as you don't hurt anyone
    by doing it).
    
    Paula
    

Nobody is saying that theres going to be anything wrong with the other person,
but I would debate that everyone looking for a partner has some sort of "looks"
criteria - even if its subconscious.

In the same way that everyone has inbuilt, subconscious prejudices against all
sorts of different things...


Just cos I have/admit to having them doesn't make me a bad person... maybe more
honest than most.

The problem we were discussing was that if you send someone a picture then get
rejected and that person hasn't met you then they HAVE to be rejecting you on
looks... 

lets imagine the boots on the other foot.


You've sent a picture off to someone and they write back and say "Sorry, not
interested"


well fine.  I can rationalise that THEY have a problem, but it wouldn't make
me feel any better and if I was sensitive about my looks it could make me feel
a whole lot worse...

I am not too bothered about my looks, so I probably wouldn't send a picture 
anyway... I would only send a picture if I felt the other person needed prior
warning of what I looked like.

If anyone requested a picture I would assume that like me they considered looks
a key factor... and I probably wouldn't write back cos if they feel like that
I probably wouldn't match up to their exacting standards - hows that for a 
double standard?


Guess its much like the fact that I don't fancy overweight fellas, generally, 
but I am overweight and expect fellas to fancy me....




Xtine

    re .46, I agree that looks do play a part in it.  It's not the only
    thing that counts but it's one of the things.  
    
    Also, another comment on past few replies.  If I refuse to date
    somebody because I don't like their looks, it may be my fault that no
    date transpires but I don't see where it would ever be my problem.  I
    would consider it more of a problem to try to date someone whose looks
    I don't like than to not date them.  Also, the person whose looks I
    didn't like need not feel that anything is wrong with them just because
    I don't like their looks, but ultimately it is their problem if they
    can't get dates with people they would like to date because of their
    appearance.  I certainly don't consider it *my* problem if I don't want
    to date someone.  It's not upsetting my life any.  
    
    (Although, I certainly wouldn't *tell* somebody that I didn't want to
    date them because of their looks.  I'd make up something more gentle
    because I wouldn't want to hurt their feelings, and would hope that
    another person would try to spare my feelings in a similar situation.)
    
    Also, back a few, I think the truth can be pretty painful at times,
    too.  I don't think truth is always all it's cracked up to be.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna
    
    When you say you wouldn't  tell someone... tih\
    is the prob;em...
    
    
    in effect if you have only a picture to go on and you reject someone
    them indirectly you
    would be teliing them unless you went on a date...
    
    so would you go and then find some other reason to drop them??
    
    
    Xtine
    
    
    ps please ignore spellos... this is a cronic line...