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Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Title:What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'?
Notice:Archived V1 - Current conference is QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS
Moderator:ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI
Created:Fri May 09 1986
Last Modified:Wed Jun 26 1996
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1327
Total number of notes:28298

1103.0. "Male Sexuality" by ARRODS::CARTER (Treat me like I'm a bad girl...) Thu Nov 08 1990 05:47

I have extracted the bulk of an article that appeared in the UK Cosmopolitan
this month.

For some reason this article really got to me, isn't it funny how this happens.

The article is about male sexuality, and suggests that possibly 50% of males 
who would call themselves heterosexual have had/are having occasional homosexual
experiences, which they don't even consider as being important.

Any comments on it?



Xtine



*********   ARTICLE FOLLOWS - WARNING: its quite long *************

The Scary Truth About Male Sexuality - Cosmopolitan (UK) Nov 1990

Certain facts are very hard to believe.  They shock us and make us face 
up to issues we'd prefer to ignore.  The facts about the sexual exploits 
of many men is one such example.  how many women today are aware of the 
proportion of men who have sexual relations with other men, but do not 
see themselves as gay or even bisexual?

A recent advertisement depicts the male hands firmly clasped.  One hand 
bears a wedding ring.  Beneath is the caption "If a married man has an 
affair, it may not be with a woman."

So the Health Education Authority has brought to the attention of the 
British public not just the fact of bisexuality amongst men, but some of 
the dangers associated with it.  Just because a man is married dies not 
mean that he is heterosexual.  He may have sex with only one woman - his 
wife - but he could also be sleeping with a number of men.

Men's sexual encounters with one another are often for what's known as 
"low-emotion, high-sensation" sex.  Its estimated that about 50% of men - 
possibly more - who identify themselves as heterosexual actually lead 
lives which many others would define as bisexual.

When I telephoned the number provided in the advertisement I found myself 
talking to a counsellor on an AIDS helpline.  And it is within the 
context of AIDS and the HIV virus that much of the latest material on the 
degree of male bisexuality has come to light.

Through a number of hospital clinics, including on major London teaching 
hospital, and university departments such as Flinders University in South 
Australia, a good deal of research is taking place.  Much of it is being 
conducted to identify people at risk of contaminating the HIV virus.  
Although this is not the only research being carried out on bisexuality, 
it is the most recent and it is ongoing.

The researchers have begun by interviewing self-identified bisexual men 
about their sexual behaviour.  Are they married? How often do they have 
sexual relations with men and women?  Do they practise "safe sex"?  What 
is their sexual history?  They also follow up those callers who want to 
know whether "occasional" sex with another man matters.  He is married, 
but feels his is straight, not bisexual or gay.  Should he be tested for 
the HIV virus even if he only has sex with another man once a year?

Why is it that women know so little about the sex that goes on between 
men?  One of the reasons is simply because men want to see themselves as 
heterosexual in a society where masculine values prevail.  Most of these 
men seem able to discount their flings with other men and don't believe 
they should interfere with their view of themselves as heterosexual.

Some straight men say that because they see themselves as heterosexual 
they don't need to worry, and only rarely do they see man-to-man sex as 
homosexual.  Frequently these men are as homophobic as some other members 
of society.


.... 

One of the characteristics of this kind of sex is its anonymity.  Gay men 
take it for granted that some men they locate in cottages will be 
"heterosexual", possibly married or living with a woman.  Even men who 
would call themselves homosexual may still have sexual relationships with 
women.  the Sigma Project at London's South Bank Polytechnic recently 
reported that 62% of the 903 homosexual men they questioned had had sex 
with women at some time in their lives - 12% had had female partners in 
the previous year.

One piece of American research - rather unethical, perhaps - traced the 
number plates of cars parked at public lavatories.  They obtained the 
addresses of the car owners and then visited them at home.  Most of the 
men who had stopped off for sex with other men were married and living in 
leafy suburbs.

In her research at Curtin University of Technology in Perth, Western 
Australia, psychologist Viv Cass found that one of the reasons why many 
straight men want sex with other men is so that they can indulge their 
desire for anal and oral sex.  Gay men, they believe, are much more 
likely to satisfy this need than women.


.....

Why, for so many men, is sex about instant gratification rather than 
emotional involvement?  Many women might find the answer unacceptable, 
even repugnant.  The men I spoke to about their sexual relations with 
other men say that they are looking for a pleasurable experience.  ITs 
not that they can't have pleasurable experiences with a women, its just 
that the men they turn to don't ask for anything more than the same king 
of pleasure.  Because they don't know each other (in the non-biblical 
sense) they don't need to see the other person again.

Generally speaking, this is where men and women differ fundamentally, at 
least as far as my experience and observations go.  A woman tends not to 
want to have sex with a man unless she feels something for him, that 
something often being love.  When it comes to the connection between sex 
and love, women and men seem to be miles apart.

In the view of Mike Penney, a psychotherapist from west London who runs 
men's groups on sexuality, there often exists a separation between a 
man's body and his emotions, and it it is because of this that a man can 
stop off at a "cottage" on his way home and never mention to his female 
partner that he has had sex with someone else.

But in doing this he puts her, and himself, at a terrible risk, 
particularly nowadays, of contracting the HIV virus.  For what is clear 
from the available research is that these men are unlikely to practise 
:safe sex", since to do so would be to acknowledge openly that they run a 
risk with not only heir own lives but those of their female partners as 
well.



......


It is imperative that women begin to scrutinise men much more closely, 
instead of taking male behaviour for granted.  If the man in your life 
has spent much of his life at a single-sex school, college, or 
university, it will be quite possible that he's used to having sex with 
men on a casual basis,  It is also likely that he will hardly consider it 
sex, just a bit of fun or mutual masturbation, something he's always had.  
But he won't consider himself bisexual, just a normal heterosexual guy.

This is not to suggest that men who went to single-sex institutions are 
the only ones who like "low-emotion, high-sensation" sex; there would 
appear to be no social, economic or age boundaries for these men.  What 
seems to happen is that a pattern of behaviour develops which is hard to 
change.

Although it may seem like cold comfort, knowing the statistics about 
men's sexual practises with other men is useful.  Knowledge, after all, 
is power.  Smart women should never sleep with a man, even is he is her 
husband or a live-in lover who does not practise safe sex.  A woman may 
think she knows everything about a man's sexual history but its quite 
possible she doesn't know the half of it.
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name		DateLines
1103.1Alter your perceptions...MISERY::WARD_FRGoing HOME--as an AdventurerThu Nov 08 1990 10:5631
    re: .0 ("Madame X")
    
         Statistics are deceptive, as you know.  If I were to hang around
    bars all day I would say that the world consists of barflys.  If
    I were to hang around a garage all day, I'd say that everyone has 
    a car and that everyone's car has problems.  If I were to hang around
    a dental office all day I'd say that no one keeps their teeth in 
    good shape.  Etc., etc., etc.  The point is, these studies came from
    the clinics where the majority of the patients are homosexual or
    bisexual men.  This is not a cross-section of the entire world.
    My personal world knows a couple of homosexual men, vast sweeping
    majorities of heterosexual men, and only perhaps two men in my 
    life so far that I have confirmed as bisexual.  Obviously there are
    more, yet from my view of reality my truth is different than that
    which your "studies" reveal.
        To paraphrase an anecdote, sometime during World War I a reporter
    went out to the farm country in Iowa (or someplace) and approached a
    farmer and asked him his opinion of the war.  He said, "What war?"
    When told that much of the world was fighting, he replied, "Well,
    they certainly picked some beautiful weather for it."
        Reality is subjective...objectivity lies within that.  How do
    you wish to see reality?  To what do you align yourself?
    Even if what the article said were "true," apparently I find myself
    aligning with the "other 50%."  Bisexuality is a nice theory for
    me, and cosmically I can agree.  Pragmatically, thus far in my life,
    I have not agreed with that.  I can understand many of the rationales
    cited, and even agree with them, but again, I choose the other 50%.
    You're choosing the reality you live in...which reality is it?
    
    Frederick
1103.2QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centThu Nov 08 1990 11:5718
I noticed that nowhere in the text was there any justification for the
"50%" claim.  The author appeared to pluck it out of thin air.  Certainly
makes for sensationalistic reading, doesn't it?  As .1 remarked, the only
data presented is related to known partners of those engaged in 
homosexual activity.  It's quite an imaginative leap from that to drawing
conclusions about all males.

I find the notion that men who went to all-male schools "quite likely"
engage in homosexual behavior to be rather ridiculous.  Some do,
undoubtedly, but it's no more likely than you'd find in the general
population.

I'd feel sorry for any woman who took any of this article seriously, except
perhaps the part about knowing your partner and not taking his history
for granted.  This should apply to anyone regardless of their sexual
orientation.

					Steve
1103.3TERZA::ZANEConsciousness before being -- V. HavelThu Nov 08 1990 12:0312
   I find it hard it take this article seriously.  It's sensationalistic
   with a lot of half-truths wound up in truisms.  I'm also not convinced of
   the "great barrier" between men and women being that most men want sex
   without emotional attachment whereas most women want the emotion.  I've
   heard that many times in many places as the sort of generalized notion
   that "everyone knows."  Sorry, but that has not been my experience and I
   find it hard to believe generally.  I'm not saying there are not men
   *and* women like that, I just find it hard to believe generally.


   							Terza
1103.4AIMHI::RAUHHome of The Cruel SpaThu Nov 08 1990 12:144
    Remember that this info is based upon info gathered in another part of
    the globe. I agree with the most of you about it having any truth, but
    it is another societys view about its own men and not based upon alot
    of men in the Northeast
1103.5Ho humYUPPY::DAVIESAShe is the Alpha...Thu Nov 08 1990 12:185
    
    I used to read Cosmopolitian.
    I don't any more.
    This article reminded me *why* I don't.
    'gail
1103.6A Part of One Man's StorySAGE::GODINNaturally I'm unbiased!Thu Nov 08 1990 12:2524
    Well, nothing like a dissenting opinion, is there?  I TAKE THIS ARTICLE
    SERIOUSLY, though I would hope that the 50% figure is somewhat high.
    
    I'm basing my belief on the life experiences of my uncle, an
    out-of-the-closet gay truck driver, as he recorded them on a day to day
    basis during his truck driving career.  By his own count -- and as
    recorded on tapes I now have in my possession, he had sex on an almost
    daily basis with multiple partners, the vast majority of whom were
    nameless and faceless to him, men he encountered in truck stops, bus
    stops, parks, restaurants, theaters, peep shows, and highway rest areas 
    all across the US.  Even if he hadn't recorded the marital status of 
    some of his partners, I would have begun to suspect after a while that 
    at least some of them were married, and probably to unsuspecting wives.  
    Anonymity was the name of his game, and when you're anonymous, anything 
    goes.
    
    The tragedy is that even after he began to suspect he carried the HIV 
    virus, he continued having these encounters.  He died of AIDS last
    August.
    
    This is just one man's story, but I doubt he's unique.  How common is
    he?  Are you willing to bet your life on your answer?
    
    Karen
1103.8TERZA::ZANEConsciousness before being -- V. HavelThu Nov 08 1990 13:1513
   Hi Karen,

   I would not dispute your uncle's experiences or his story.  I would not
   overlook the tragedy of his having contracted the AIDS virus.

   I would dispute the generality of the article.  Of those people who were
   surveyed, I would not doubt their experiences.  I do have trouble
   applying those experiences to the majority of people everywhere.


   							Terza
1103.9ARRODS::CARTERTreat me like I'm a bad girl...Fri Nov 09 1990 03:4742
I knew two gay men at University, both of whose experiences were the same 
as Karens uncle.  They had picked up men, anonymously, all over the place.

One of them once came back from a trip to London and said that during his
hitchhike back to Stirling (about 400 miles) he had been given a lift by 4
men and had had sex with 3 of them.  Maybe that just says something about
the type of people who pick up hitchhikers... but what do you bet some of them
are married/have girlfriends.  

This was before the AIDS thing, it worries me that gay men like Karen's uncle
continue to pick up men after knowing they have HIV,,,

I too discounted the statistics (Lies, lies and damn lies) and in fact cut out
some of the statistics when typing it in (they purported that only 50% of the 
population are "heterosexual" and of those about 50% have had/are having casual
gay sex).

What worried me was the "emotional detachment" angle, the fact that these men
could see these occasional "flings" as nothing more than a bit of fun.  I have 
known quite a few men who see casual flings with women in this way, so why 
should it be any different with a man?

The article I believe makes out that a lot of men are not "lying" they are just
ommiting the truth.

What the press over here is saying is that Gay men are changing their sexual
habits, but that heteosexual people are not.  The implication from this article
is that there are a lot of men who consider themselves heterosexual and 
therefore are not changing their habits as Gay men are.

The other thing that stikes me in discussing this is that we can NEVER know
if the statistics are true.  By the fact that the very men who are being 
discussed wouldn't admit to casual gay sex anyway.  I find myself looking about
at the number of men I know and thinking well "some of them must have".  As far 
as I can see the report gets its statistics in reverse, in other words its
Gay men and Bisexual men saying they've had casual sex with "heterosexual" men
.... none of these so called heterosexuals have "given evidence".


Xtine
1103.11Connection between sex and loveIE0010::MALINGLife is a balancing actFri Nov 09 1990 17:159
Ignoring all the statistics, I found the statement about the connection between
sex and love interesting.  I'm not a man, but I have always seen them as two
separate things which can occur together or separately.  I even believe its
possible for a person to be sexually attracted to one sex and emotionally
attracted to the other sex.

How do the rest of you think about the connection?

-Mary
1103.12NRUG::MARTINWhite Camaro?--AHAHAHAHAHAHFri Nov 09 1990 18:102
    Actually Mike, I found it more along the lines of Oprah or Sally
    myself.....
1103.14yes, there's lots of anonymous sex going on between malesHANNAH::OSMANsee HANNAH::IGLOO$:[OSMAN]ERIC.VT240Mon Nov 12 1990 10:5520
There definitely is alot of anonymous sex going on between males.

I attend group meetings in the Boston area in which people are dealing with
quite a range of relationship, emotional, and sexual issues.

Many people, particularly men, talk about their anonymous sexual
experiences, which they carried on in places such as highway rest areas.

The group meetings for relationship and sexual issues are open to anyone that
has heir own issues in those areas, but people are VERY strict about
anonymity and confidentiality within the group.  hence out of the meetings,
no one tells someone else's particular story, or even names someone that
was at the meeting.

Hence people are willing to reveal their private issues, knowing that
listeners won't betray the person.  In other words, the meetings become
a "safe space".

/Eric
1103.15ARRODS::CARTERTreat me like I'm a bad girl...Thu Nov 15 1990 09:5612
    Out of interest,
    
    I've discussed this with several people now... and something I believe
    is missing from my previous replies is that the statistics/"facts" were
    extrapolated from interviews with Gay men, not the heterosexuals...
    
    ie. it was the Gay men saying that their "anonymous" partners were
    heterosexual/married men... rather than the researchers finding
    heterosexuals "admitting" this behaviour....
    
    
    Xtine
1103.16Wanted: a source for unbiased statisticsSAGE::GODINNaturally I'm unbiased!Thu Nov 15 1990 12:026
    Agreed, Xtine.  The only problem is, it's a biased result either way. 
    But I, too, would like to see the results of candid interviews with
    heterosexual/married men.  My own gut tells me that the numbers would
    still be higher than many of us would think.
    
    Karen
1103.17smut magazine of the third kindDEC25::BERRYThe SIMPSONS are back!Wed Nov 21 1990 09:363
    
         Cosmoplitan is written to entertain women.  It's a joke.
1103.18ESIS::GALLUPIt's a Wildcat weekend!Mon Nov 26 1990 14:2512
    
    
    
    >     Cosmop[o]litan is written to entertain women.  It's a joke.
    
    
    Actually, it entertains the men in my household more than me.  I buy it
    every once in awhile to get ideas for designs (clothing) and the guys
    pour over the issues avidly.
    
    k
1103.19TRACTR::HOGGEDragon Slayer For Hire...Crispy!Wed Dec 05 1990 18:599
    The thing that strikes me is that all of the info was volunteered...
    
    Something about that sticks in my mind from another article I'd read 
    somewhere... that "volunteered" info tends to strech reality in stats.
    
    Why is my brain more fuzzy then usual....I wish I could recall the 
    details or figure out why this is sticking in my mind...
    
    Skip