Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    In my opinion your sister's problem has nothing to do with
    occupation. All truck drivers do not lack impulse control.
    It sounds to me that if this man did not have this "reason"
    to lose control he would find another. I wish her luck. It
    seems amazig to me that none of this showed up before they
    got married.
    
    Eileen
    

    
    
    I tend to agree with -1.  My boyfriend, when I first met him,
    had very little control over his anger.  He was called on it
    after hitting me once and me marching down to the police 
    station to file a complaint against him.  He nearly broke my
    arm.  After he realized just how serious a problem he had, he
    sought counselling for his problem.  He now has this problem
    completely under control.
    
    It has been almost 5 years and he has never laid a hand on 
    me in anger.  I am quite sure that if it weren't for me going
    to the police he would still have this problem and he would
    not have me.  When my dad was alive, he would be a very violent
    drunk.  So I learned early on not to accept violence of any
    manner directed towards me.  This is not to say that he does
    not get angry, but he now knows when he is angry that he needs
    to let off steam in a constructive not destructive manner.
    
    
    I too would fear for your sister.  Physical harm leaves
    quite a scar on ones psyche.  If he does not seek help
    on his own, I would advise leaving the situation until he
    does.  Sure it will be hard, and probably scarey.  But
    why risk getting hurt?  There is no reason.  If she truly
    feels she is in danger then get out.  Don't wait until
    something happens becuase she may not have a chance once
    the violence has occurred.  
    
                                                              
    re your issue on class differences.  It may very well be
    occurring in this situation.  He may feel very threatened
    by her education, but he may also feel threatened by her
    making more money than he does (if that is the case).
    This is an issue I had to deal with with my boyfriend.
    I make a considerable amount more than he does and more
    than likely ever will.  I am an engineer and he is in
    human resources.  It is not that either of us do a better
    job than the other, it is just the pay scale is radically
    different.
    
    It is an issue of self esteem.  Traditionally, men were
    considered the bread winners in the marriages.  It was
    highly unheard of for a woman to make more than her husband.
    I have seen this problem quite a few times with my friends.
    Alot of the women do make much more than the men.  If the
    man has enough self esteem and believes in  himself, the 
    issue does not really matter that much.  But if there is
    a lack of self esteem, then the issue is blown out of 
    proportion.
    

    Statistically, such cross-class marriages are rare.  I suspect
    they are often unsuccessful, and ones where the wife is the
    one from the higher class are probably in more danger due to
    the "breadwinner" expectations of our culture.
    
    That said, if the marriage had been working well until recently,
    it might be worth trying to find out what had gone wrong, even
    to getting a medical check-up for the husband (sudden changes in
    behaviour can be caused by nervous system problems).
    
    		-John Bishop

    I don't buy the "It won't work because they're from two different
    worlds" bull.  I know of several marriages (My parents included)
    that were/are just that.  For that matter, I'm currently in just
    such a relationship, me being a "blue collar" worker.  She has a
    degree and I have a high school education.  It doen't make any
    difference in our relationship.  She makes more money then I do...
    That isn't her fault or mine.  It's the way the system works.
    She happens to have a job that pays more per hour then mine does.
    We talked about it once.  It didn't seem to be all that big a deal
    to either of us.  I've dated women before from the "white collar"
    world.  Face it.... a large majority of women are "white collar"
    and I refuse to classify them as "off limits" to myself or anyone
    else.  We don't talk much about our jobs so that leaves the rest
    of the world for us to share our views on.  I don't feel I have
    any less of an education then she has.  The only thing is I lived
    and learned differently then she did.  While she was in collage
    earning her degree, I was in the Navy traveling around the world
    and enjoying the chance to see things a lot of other people both
    with and without degrees will never see.  
    
    I don't think that his mix of blue and white is the problem.  I
    can't begain to suggest what is.  It could be a nerve disorder,
    I went through one, having had a tumor removed through surgery that
    was responsible for me going into fits of rage that were identical
    to the patterns of men who tend toward violence.  I had to do a
    lot of research to understand what was going on with me.  I had
    hurt someone (though, thank God, no severly) very close to me and
    it cost me that relationship.  But it made me go and find out what
    was wrong with me.  And it made me do some research into violence
    and violent reactions in this context.  
    
    He can be helped.  If it is a nerve disorder... it can be either
    cured with surgery or controled with medication.  If it isn't then
    there is an 87% chance that it is a learned behavior from exposure
    to violence as a kid. (His father/mother were violent).  This means
    that if it IS a learned behavior, either conscieously or not.  It
    CAN be unlearned.  There are support groups for violent men, as
    well as psycological and psychiactric help available for them. 
    All of them, any of them can teach you how to control violence,
    turn it into something else.  But FIRST he has to recognize he has
    a problem.  
    
    Don't for a minute think that slamming door jams, hitting walls,
    or other things is NOT violent behavior, it most certainly is...
    and it's only a short step away from physical abuse of someone instead
    of something.  If he doesn't recognize this as a problem then the
    smartest and BEST thing or her is to leave... NOW.  Leave a letter
    explaining why.  And IF he chooses to find help, then maybe MAYBE
    consider going back.  Marriage counseling is a good step, if the
    counselor is worth his/her salt they will recognize the problem
    with the violence and make appropriate recommendations on additional
    aid.  From there it's up to him.  
    
    But I STRONGLY URGE you to talk her into getting out of the house
    if she does not like the thought of physical abuse.  I don't know
    what his problem is, maybe his job is putting stress on him, maybe
    there is some of the macho problem of "being the bread winner" but
    right now the immediate consern is the violence itself.
    
    This is from someone who has been in HIS shoes.  So take it under
    SERIOUS consideration.
    
    Skip

    Blue collar-smoo collar! This bone head needs someone bigger than him
    to tell him to go laydown in the corner. If she can get him into rage
    with a few good words, image what she can do if she learns how to tell
    him to behaive himself! I have friends who drive trucks, educated with
    masters and etc. I have some who have little or no primary education.
    This lad has a fallon problem connected to his ego and his inability to
    talk to the real world. Can you say Mr. Rogers? What color is your
    collar today? What? You wear tank tops? Oh, isn't that wounderful.
    Perhaps we can have cookies and milk this afternoon after you take your
    nap from your temper tantrim.
    Signed 'A lovely day in the neighborhood'
    
    George

    
    I think you hit the problem when you mentioned that he has low
    self-esteem.
    
    Whilst our society continues to define people in terms of what they
    *do* rather than what they *are* it is very easy (unless you are a
    very unusual person) to find your good feelings about yourself eroded
    by other's views. If he thinks that people look down on him for his
    lack of formal education, or the "status" of his job, or whether he is
    the main wage earner or not, he will not feel good about himself.
    
    And not feeling good about yourself leaks into your relationships in
    many different ways. Getting depressed, getting judgemental of others,
    getting violent - none of them good ways to deal with it, but all ways
    that I've seen used as pressure valves.....
    
    Obviously the violence has to stop. Counselling could help address the
    root of the problem....
    
    'gail
    

    
    	I agree with .7 - his low self esteem doesn't help matters
    	any. If he felt better about himself, he wouldn't be so quick
    	to assume she is talking down to him on purpose. Maybe she is,
    	though...(?) My husband is `blue collar', I guess you could say,
    	he can't balance a checkbook, banking makes him nervous, he doesn't
    	pay the bills - BUT, he knows I am better at these things and he
    	trusts me to do them for both of us. It doesn't make him uncomfort-
    	able. I have a pre-med education, but I always `censor' what I say
    	in that I don't use words or phrases that I know he isn't familiar
    	with when we talk. I think your sister might need to be more
    	considerate of him in this way. My `cross-marriage' is great, but
    	it is different from hers. We both respect each others' abilities,
    	he knows I'm good at my job, and he is the best in the area for his
    	business, which makes me proud of him. I don't care how long he
    	went to school for, he makes more money than me, so in this case,
    	school is not an indicator. 
    	
    	I guess what I'm trying to say is that the differences in their
    	careers and education is not the problem, but it might be hindering
    	their communication abilities. I think they should both go to a
    	counselor, good luck to them....
    

    I think the problem, if there is one in blue collar/ white collar
    relationships, is not in the educational or career difference, but in
    how the 2 people in the relationship view their differences.
    
    My parents had one of those "mixed marriages" but I think my dad still
    made more money during most of their marriage.  He read a lot, and they
    didn't have a large knowledge gap, but my mother was much more
    ambitious.  They came from similar backgrounds originally, but her
    ambition eventually led her out the door.  Their educational
    differences were indicative of differences in what they wanted in life.
    
    If either of the people involved thinks that education or job is a real
    indicator or a person's worth, then there would likely be a problem
    in that sort of "mixed" relationship.  If one or both people are caught
    up in status symbols, then there's bound to be a problem.  
    
    On the other hand, if both partners feel that one of them is more 
    educated or has a "better" job simply because that's where their 
    interests lie, and that they're equally worthy human beings, then it
    probably won't be a serious issue.  I think the key is respect -- both
    for the other person and for yourself.  As long as you both like each
    other and yourselves, and don't care a fig for "status symbols" then
    who care who does what?
    
    Personally, I'm not impressed by someone's job or education.  I'm
    impressed by what they are inside.  Though, granted, sometimes one's
    education or career is an indicator of what they are inside.  But is
    their success based on back-stabbing, or on something really admirable
    (hard work and honesty)?
    
    Anyway, whether there are problems or not depends on their attitude.
    
    Also, it's possible to talk down to someone or disregard their
    decisions or feelings without realizing it.  I'd recommend your sister
    go to counselling even if her husband won't go.  If he didn't have
    such a short fuse, and could talk about it calmly, maybe he could give
    specific examples of when he felt she did these things, and suggest
    what he would prefer she do instead.  Sometimes these things are
    *very* subtle, or caused by differences in how one perceives things.

    Maybe he doesn't admit to himself that her degree/job/title/income
    really do impress/intimidate him. Which comes out in different ways
    than simple respect. 

    Unfortunately it does sometimes come into play; blue collar vs. white
    collar especially if the woman is the white collar job holder.  Often,
    though this is not the case but in my opinion it takes a man with a
    clear sense of confidence in who he is and what he is about to be happy
    in this type of marriage.
    
    As far as the outbursts of rage does he have a drinking problem?  Even
    beer can add up to a drinking problem, especially in a line of work
    where lot's of the boys finish off the day with a beer, or even partake
    at lunchtime.  She should take a serious look at this.  BUT in the
    immediate present she should consider her safety and move out
    temporarily and then they can seek counseling for his anger.
    
    Although you probably don't want to interfere it might do her good to
    let her know you are there if she needs emotional support, it might
    help her to react sooner.
    
    Best of luck, let us know what happens.
    

>                     -< Professional marrying Blue-collar >-

>    taking place in her husband. His explosive temper is cause of great 
>    concern to me. It seems, that he is always accusing her of "talking 
>    down" to him, not taking his decisions seriously, treating him like a 
>    dummy, you name it...

    The problem isn't the educational differences. The problem seems to
    be the way the two are handling their differences. My 2nd wife was
    an elementary school teacher, and her attitude towards my opinions
    varied from no respect to outright hostility, and it dam* near
    drove me crazy. About the only time she respected my opinion was if
    it coincided with her girl friends opinions.
    
    The part of the relationship which is invisible to you, is how they
    relate when they are alone with each other. I *hope* you realize
    that whatever your sister says, it will be her version of the
    situation. Intelligent people usually recognize this basic fact of
    relational psychology.
    
>    conversation. He's also intimidated by the fact that our entire is 
>    educated - all seven of us. I notice when ever I talk to him, sometimes 
>    he kiddingly? says to me, "you're using those big words again, speak to 
    
    Perhaps there is a message here worth considering. Its not clear
    what the attraction was between he and she, but it doesn't seem to
    be education or conversation.

>    educated and he's not. He obtained his GED in the service, and he feels 
>    even worse about that. His self-esteem is very low.
    
    A low self esteem can be very damaging. It really "sounds like"
    this guy could use some propping up, or at least enough for hem to
    get the message he needs some form of restorative therapy.
    
>    
>    The question I'm asking is this: Just how successful are marriages 
>    between professionals and blue-collar workers, especially if the woman
>    is  educated. Personally, after observing her situation, I would have 

    Really depends on the situation, I know one couple personally where
    the man stays at home and takes care of the kids, and the wife
    works as the primary breadwinner. But this is rare !!!
    
    I don't see the whole issue. Don't forget, men have been marrying
    down for centuries, and continue to do so. The real test of
    education is the ability to adapt oneself to the situation.
    
    The question isn't one of education nor collar-colors .. it is one
    of marital commitment, and finding out what it would take to make
    this combination successful.
    
    You don't say so, but are there other factors besides "job titles",
    such as race, religion, politics, economic (social status), work
    ethics, etc. ??
    
    Abuse has absolutely NOTHING to do with
    Gender, Jobs, Degrees, Intelligence ..
    
    Abusive actions can be just as easily initiated by the very wealthy
    and educated right down to the poorest and least educated. Caring
    also cuts across all these same lines.

    -BobE