Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    I don't know how in hell [excuse my language] you could possibly 
    "keep this simple". Lord almighty, what a tangle.
    
    Just some questions: [This lady ain't got no answers....]
    
    1..Are you willing/able to go to court to get custody? I would think
    that her mother's behavior and your daughter's beating of her would be
    grounds...but I am real fuzzy on such a thing.
    
    2..Are you willing/able to really press the charges that you threatened
    her with. Seems to me that she has had a lot of threats in her life and
    no carry-throughs. One lesson might be enough...you never know.
    
    3..Are you willing to subject your 11 year old [is she with her
    Mother?] to this kind of role model. No matter what you do, it would be
    a miracle if something doens't rub off.
    
    4..Are you willing to put up with the grief and heartache that will
    ensue of you follow your conscience in this thing?
    
    This is such a can of worms. My personality is such that I would
    probably wade in and start swinging...but I wonder if that is best for
    the younger daughter?
    
    Sometimes, you gotta let go the ones you can't win. I know that sounds
    so helpless...but I really wonder if you can fight all these battles on
    all these fronts and win the war.
    
    Good luck...God's blessings.
    
    Melinda

    You can either go for it and give it all. Or you can sit on your pitty
    pot and complain about the situation. There are three decisions here.
    1. Yes
    2. No
    3. Indecision
    
    Maybe someday your daughter will say to you thanks dad for trying to
    keep me on the streight and narrow. Or why did you do it? Or why did
    you not do it. I am in a similar sit with diffence circumsm, but
    I am gambling on the 'thanks dad for giving it a try'. There are
    no absolutes here. Life and death are absolute. I am going to get 
    into trouble for this, but not all moms are good moms and not all
    dads are good too. But you gotta give it a try anyhow. If this 
    boyfriend comes out for a visit, you can tell the locals about him
    and I am sure that there maybe something in the legal sence that
    may put the fear into the lads head. Besides a bullett, bird shot,
    an ax, etc.
    
    

    
    Being only 22 myself, I remember quite clearly what being 14 felt like
    and I think that you are in a really sticky spot.  Your telling her not
    to see her boyfriend and not to have sex with him, only makes him MORE
    attractive.  She wants to grow up and she wants to prove, to herself,
    that she's independant.  What better way to prove both than to sleep
    with this guy now?  She'll be doing a 'grown-up' act and defying you at
    the same time!  One thing to keep in mind is that people used to get
    married at her age and there's a reason for that.  Hormones run high in
    teenagers.  Another thing is that if someone makes up her/his mind to
    do something, they're going to do it.  Abortion laws won't stop
    abortions, they only make them more dangerous.  Drug laws don't stop
    drug use, they only make it an unregulated, thus more dangerous,
    industry.  Perhaps you need to face the fact that if she's already
    having sex, she's not going to stop.  Would you give up sex?  The way
    she see's it, sex is fun.  How about if you sit down with her and go
    over birth control.  Then educated her about venereal disease.  Perhaps
    she doesn't realize that if she got it from her boyfriend, then he got
    it from someone else.  Show her pictures of aids patients, prefferably
    people of the same sex/age/race/socio-economic-bracket as she is.  Tell
    her how my cousin died of aids after 2 years of slow deterioration :
    hair falls out, nails fall off one-by-one, your body becomes covered
    with welts so you can't sit or lie down without great pain ...  You
    might not stop her from having sex, but at least she won't die because
    of it.  If all you do is cricize and threaten her, she might very well
    leave both of her parents and go live/hide-out with him.
    
    I'm sorry if I have shocked you but you are not just dealing with a
    little girl having sex.  There's alot more at stake than virginity.
    Feel free to send me mail if you wish.
    
    Rachael
    

    I have a few unrelated questions for .0.  (I don't need to know the
    answers, but they might be things to think about.)
    
    1.  Is your objection to the boyfriend that he is a creep, or that he
    is having sex with your daughter?  If they have been involved for a
    year -- and he stuck by her while she was dealing with a venereal
    disease -- he just may be serious about her.  I have no idea.  
    
    If he's a creep or in trouble with the law, do whatever you must.  If
    it's that you don't like how she acts around him, that's a question of
    not liking her behavior -- a problem you must resolve with her, not
    with him.  If it's just the idea of "some guy despoiling my daughter",
    that _may_ be your problem, not your daughter's problem.  
    
    You even (!) might think about allowing him to come out to visit you
    and your daughter, to see how they act together in an environment you
    control.
    
    2.  If your ex-wife's reason for wanting her daughter back is that she
    will lose the child-support payments, would you be willing to pay her
    the child support even if your daughter is living with you?  That way
    you would get your wife's support without the hassle, time, and expense
    of court costs.  It might irk you to pay her for no reason, and you
    would have to be careful how you approached her to suggest it, but it
    is an option you have.
    
    3.  Do you have a good relationship with your daughter to begin with? 
    Does she trust you and know you well?  How does she feel about the
    divorce and living with her mother all those years?  You have mentioned
    she was physically and verbally abused by your ex-wife and at the age of
    14 is extremely rebellious and on calming medication.  If you do not
    already have a solid foundation with your daughter, I fear you run the
    risk of having her simply run away.  Again, I have no idea (and I know
    the courts regulate how much time you get to spend with her), but part
    of the problem might be that she doesn't really understand where you're
    coming from.
    
    My main advice would be:  TALK TO YOUR DAUGHTER.  She thinks she's an
    adult because she's successfully fought her mother and because she has
    had sex, but she's not.  She may need rules and boundaries, but she
    needs loving ones and she needs to understand why you are doing what
    you are doing ... 
    
    Good luck.
    
    Pam

    Pam... I agree, with all the points you made.  They are all valid
    and something he needs to consider before doing anything more. 
    
    But, the point of paying the child support to his wife, I know if
    I had custody of my son, that money would be better spent in trying
    to fight the situation in court rather then making peacful settlements.
    
    Also, something for the base noter.  My sister at 14 fell into some
    simular circumstances.  My father felt much as you do and was about
    to go nuts trying to stop the relationship.  Twice she'd run away
    with the guy, twice my father found out where she was and dragged
    her back.  
    
    Then my mother, in her infinate wisdom, took over the situation.
    She made my father hold his tongue and "behave" then started having
    the guy over for dinner.  She started talking with him, next she
    started inviting him over for family functions.  Birthdays, etc.
    In 2 months time, she started having him over to the house so much
    I was begaining to think of the creep as another brother.  She did
    it to the point that everything my sister did, everywhere she went,
    he was there.  The relationship between them lasted another 6 months
    then he just stopped seeing her.  She informed us that she was no
    longer interested in him and asked him to stop coming over.  My
    mother in effect gave her too much of him and she quickly grew tired
    of having him around ALL the time.  
    
    You may want to consider it.  
    
    Skip

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				Steve






    Hi,
    
    I thought I would offer some other suggestions for behavior
    modification that you could consider trying with your situation. I also
    want to offer hope for you that your daughter does not have to ruin her
    life because she has made a few mistakes. I would suggest that a loving
    concern for how the choises she makes will effect her be the most
    prominent thing you attempt to get into her mind.
    
    I will offer a true story of a girl who I meet but did not know well.
    She was raped at a young age (13 or 14).   She remained sexually
    active, possibly to attract the loving relationships that we as humans
    crave but they were missing because of her situation. Her mother had  
    mental problems. I dont know anything about the father but he either
    ran off when the kids were young or died or the mother did not know 
    who he was. The girls (one older sister and a set of twins) had been 
    kicked out of the home and reported as runaways so many times that 
    other families offered a home for the sisters at various times in  the
    years that the twins were 15 and 16. One of the three girls who  seemed
    not to trust people easily became pregnant(after some concerned  adults
    had taken her to the local Planned Parent organization and gotten  her
    the free pills for contraception and told her she could  continue to
    get them free for a period of time).
    
    The details I remember are sketchy. I saw this girl very often but did
    not get to know her. She seemed to spend a lot of time absorbing
    information.
    
    The young lady did not tell anyone she might be pregnant till  after
    she relized she had missed her period for 6 or 7 months. It was assumed
    by casual friends that she was just gaining weight. When she did tell
    her mother she was kicked out again(remember if social services gets
    involved they will attempt to put families back together and these
    girls had a check from an accident coming in every month so it was in
    the mothers best interests to keep the girls in a bad light-by claiming
    they were runaways-instead of completely releasing them to someone
    elses care.
    
    She then went to a person who had show kindness and love and anger at
    what she was doing to herself but had said "Well its your choise and I
    love you It just hurts me so much when I see you making choises that
    could hurt you in the long run" This person was not the girls mother
    but a loving adult who tried to be a place this girl  would chose to
    run to if she felt she needed to.
    
    After much discussion about the responsibilities of children, emotional
    needs, the posibility that this girl could raise her child the way she 
    was raised unless she took measures to prevent repeating the behavior,
    ect. The child was still detirmined to keep her baby when it was born.
    Some other adults were recruited to help get the child emancipated and
    make sure the  money that was going to her mother for the child would
    go to the child. The young girl stayed at my friends house during the
    days learning parenting skills in the most subdle ways. Through
    conversations about  "I remember when Sally did this and I felt like
    ... and I did .... but in thinking about it I realy should have done
    ....The next time this showed up I tried it and this is what
    happened...." While the conversations were going on their were children
    in the home who were being watched by my friend while she is talking
    and in mid- sentance she would correct, redirect, encourage, love the
    children  as they played.
    
    Well eventually the loving envionment rubbed off and many times after
    the baby was born the young girl would come over and my friend would
    exclaim  over this trait or that trait that the child was showing 
    praising the  young lady by discribing something she might be doing to
    encourage the trait in the baby. i.e.Exclaim "Oh look he lookes right
    at me when I  talk to him. You are a  very smart mother to talk to him
    so much that he has learned to look at my face when he talks" 
    or " He looks so big I bet you must get tired of nursing him sometimes.
    It is really wonderful of you to take the time now when he is so young
    to do this for him.
    
    By making a big deal out of her sacrifice and being understanding of
    the  difficulties of the choise she 'reminded' this girl that the
    effort was worth it and that soon her child would center in on her as
    the center of his universe.
    
    She would reiterate the praise over and over as people came to get
    their children or dropped of thier children and the young mother basked
    in the  warmth of this praise. It was repeated over and over and
    sometimes said with a "Oh did I tell you that Peter is doing wonderful
    and Cindy has  such wonderful mothering instincts. She is ...." It is
    amasing to me that the child did not see through the method. My friend
    would guide conversations around various topics concerning babies and
    taking care of children. I would fall right into it(babies being one of
    my FaVoRite topics) and share my information and give my  praise for a
    Mothering Job well done.
    
    Even the mistakes where carefully worded to be shown in a positive
    light. I just can't remember any specifics right now.This girl did not
    ever  relise that my friend was using the same behavior modification
    tecnigues to carefully encourage her to give into the 'natural mother'
    that was kind and unconditionally loving. 
    
    How was this girl going to know that it is the childs natural instinct
    to look at the round faces around it. She was lead to believe that she
    created the behavior and this belief was carefully nurtured to
    reenforce the "motherly, loving, behavior" that would both encourage
    bonding and teach the mother the age specific skills that babies
    normally have and how to cope with frustration when you can't seem to
    find out what is realy wrong.
    
    Over time this girl found a young man. They fell in love. He married
    her and eventually adopted her child. He was older. but not many 16
    year old boys can raise or afford a family.  Today almost 6 years later
    my friend still hears from this young woman. She lives in California
    and has two children and is still very happily  married. 
    
    Her two sisters are still having major problems but I think they wanted
    to appear to be trusting and to trust but never realy did trust the
    people who could and would help them.
    
    Even at a young age and with chosing to have a baby and keep it some
    girls rise above the average expectations.
    
    Now to my other point. I feel strongly that girls who have experienced
    sex at an early age have usually felt very strong pressure to do so. In
    many cases I feel it could be called Sexual Assault. Now what to do. I
    would think that anger should be expressed but expressed specifically
    about the behavior and attitudes that you feel are hurting your child.
    "I am afraid that you are making choices to hurt yourself because I can
    only see this(enter your perception) in your future if you do this
    (enter your description of the action)."
    
    I cant remember all the ways that this can be expressed but your
    CONCERN and LOVE are the most imoportant things she needs. It is
    possible that she realises that she has made a mistake and is no longer
    "daddy's little girl" It is possible that she feels guilt. She will not
    let you know that if she does. She will continue to be defensive.
    Eventually when she trusts your  unconditional love she MIGHT admit that
    she has screwed up.
    
    Please note I know you and other parents do not stop loving their
    children but it is possible that she feels deep inside that she has
    done something so aweful that she does not deserve your love and will
    look for evidence of this from you. She may not admit this even to her-
    self. The love must be reinforced verbally and physically before it
    will sink in. It will take time. LOOOTTS of TIME.
    
    Some suggestions from the Girl Scout Contemporary Issues Making Choises
    for Your Life(new this year and used for Junior,Caddet and  Senior age
    levels only with permission from the parents) This book discusses stats
    about teenage pregnancy and the method that the Girl Scouts wants Adult
    Leaders to help with this problem. It suggests activities that are ment
    to build self-esteem and show what responsibilities are required to be
    completely in charge of someone's care.
    
    It also gives leaders direction in how to handle situations if a  comes
    to her with the information and briefly discusses the difficultly that
    some girls have with stopping a physical relationship. If they will not
    stop how to introduce tht fact that they will have to chose to have a
    baby or use contraceptives 
    
    It is important,I feel to emphisis that what you know you feel, i.e.
    love and concern. I believe this because I think her internal "I am a
    bad person" will be VERY loud to her. She has a lot of rebuilding of
    self esteem to do. What SHE thinks or feels about what you feel is not 
    going to be easy to override, because she could feel she is not worthy
    of  your (or anyone's) love and she could continue sex just to find that 
    'missing part' or 'feeling of being loved'.
    
    This can sound silly but to use an example...
    
    In the above instance with this friend of mine. She always tried to 
    point out as many results from different choises and how to 'protect'
    yourself. It was their choice to use or not use the information. The
    ones who wanted to kept coming back. She would blow up but she
    expressed her anger correctly with a clear(as clear as she could think)
    reason for being angry. Sometimes a real clear interest in how the
    child is going to handle these results. My friend was always carefull
    in expressing  "I love you"'s and hugs(Her theory was that they were
    starved for love) The child we all thought would never come around even
    when the others seemed to respond at the time turned out to be the one
    that flowered under this specific envionment.
    
    You are the most knowlegeable person about your child. If you think
    that self-esteem is a problem. Learn more about it. Your other daughter
    will bloom under this same treatment so what you learn for one can be
    used on the other.
    
    Look at the medications. I know that more current research has revealed
    that Prozac can cause mood swings(I know this from experience I am
    taking it myself.) Consider the posibility of a medication change of
    some sort. In addition to the counseling she is getting right now I
    would suggest a  rape group or teenage group that has girls who are
    sexually active. I dont know how to find this type of group but the
    local Mental Health Organizations might have suggestions. The Health
    Departments also have Health Educators who can teach various Health
    related topics including those surrounding making choices. They also
    have Health nurses and  (depending on your location in the states)they
    may have a social worker who would know about kids/parents in similar
    situations. Thier could be a support group for parents out there and
    it could be sponsored out of a religious organization.
    
    Keep Looking. 
    I am thinking of you often.
    Anonymous

    Just a few thoughts:
    
    As was said in a previous reply, you will almost certainly not be able
    to "reform" a sexually active teenager.  The best you can do is try to
    make her understand that your concern comes from love, and try to keep
    her physically and mentally healthy.  It will be a long time before she
    realizes that life would have been easier if she had not grown up too
    fast.
    
    If she is not in counseling, get her (and maybe you) into it FAST.  I'm
    not one to run to a psychologist at the drop of a hat, but sometimes
    people do need help.  No mortal could cope alone with the situation
    you've described.
    
    If you feel that the boy is hurting her beyond the issue of "taking
    advantage of her" (a psychologist could advise you on that), then you
    might indeed want to go after him with both legal barrels loaded.  Just
    be sure your lawyer informs you of where the legal path leads, and that
    you're willing to go there.  Understand, too, the real possibility of
    your daughter running away.  At her age the law might help you there
    too, but it's not an easy course.
    
    Strength and wisdom be yours,
    Tony