Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    1. Only if you are absolutely sure that this is what your mother
       wants. Talk it over with her extensively first.
    2. Only if you are prepared for your brothers to hate you for
       the rest of your life.
    
    My alternate suggestion would be to encourage your mother to
    sell the house and move into a smaller place.
    
    Bonnie

    My suggestion would be to provide support and encouragement to your
    Mother.  As Bonnie said she might want to explore different living
    quarters.  
    
    I think the most important issue is the death of your father.  There
    are a lot of sibling interactions that go on at this time.
    
    It would be my suggestion that you work with your brothers on your
    mhers future.e.   Depending on her age you might suggest that you all
    seek professional advice on her future and the resources available.
     
    I would not write a letter to your brothers.  That situation is between
    your mother and her sons.  Being able to make decisions and solve
    problems keep people functional.  We don't do anyone any favors by
    taking the responsibility of life away from them before it is
    absolutely necessary.

    I have had a similar situation happen in my family 3 times. I have
    found that when an adult that age leaves at home with his mother it
    does more harm than good. If I were you I would speak up after talking
    to your mother. You have every right to be concerned about your mother
    and your brothers. Your mother shouldn't have to be a cafeteria for
    your brothers, they are old enough to take care of themselves. I know
    from experiences in my family that if you don't let someone fall down
    they will never try and pick themselves up. They will just keep taking
    free rides. I do think it would be better to call them on the phone
    rather to send them a letter.
    
    Just my opinion...
    
    /sandi
    

    Don't do it!
    
    Hard as it will be, resist the temptation to step in and solve your
    mother's problems. Your mother participated in creating this situation,
    and only she can undo it. If she doesn't have the strength to fight
    for her privacy, she probably won't get it even if you do intervene.
    Then your brothers might think it was your idea and end up resenting
    you, and your mother's situation would still be the same.
    
    You can support your mother's efforts and listen to her. You could
    suggest she get counseling for her grief. Grief groups are becoming
    fairly common now. That would be a start, and she would get a lot of 
    help for the other problem, too. You could also tell her that the
    best thing she can do for your brothers is to allow them to grow
    up.
    
    You have my sympathy. Standing by while others make their own mistakes
    is one of life's hardest tasks.
    
    Eileen

    Jery-
    
    Eileen is  *so* right!  Choose your arena to be involved in this very
    carefully.  You are not responsible for the relationship between Mom
    and your brothers.   But you do feel for her, I am sure.  I would
    suggest that you offer concrete suggestions about *how* Mom can go
    about encouraging the "boys" to go.  One of the best suggestions is to 
    move into smaller digs.  But this might be very hard, with the memories
    of Dad filling the house.  
    
    
    I second the suggestion of NOT writing to your brothers.  If she truly
    needs you to lend her strenght when she does the asking, would it be
    possible for you to fly home for a weekend, and lend support when your
    mother addresses your brothers?  It might be well worth the plane
    ticket to be able to sit next to her at the kitchen table when she
    hands out the eviction notices.  
    
    
    But if all of this is not feasable, then try suggesting that she stop
    cooking for all of them, stop shopping to feed 3 grown men,  stop
    cleaning up after them (except when she can't stand the living
    room...), stop any other services she is offering.  That will, at
    least, be a step in the right direction.
    
    Good luck, Jerry, this is a true dilemma and however you chose to be
    involved, you will probably come out of this as the goat rather than
    the hero.
    
    Sue

    I have had a similar situation in my family (I'm the 'doer' as you,
    however my independence makes me the 'blacksheep')  I have a 30 year
    old sister (the longest held job here is about 1 1/2 years), a 24 year
    old sister at home and a 20 year old brother. (I left home permently at
    19) 
    
    I would suggest in your case, that you play a support role to your
    mother ONLY.  I would be by her side when she requests them to leave. 
    She probably does not have the "courage" to tell them to get out, all
    on her own but she might if she has some support beside her.  In any
    case it should be done FIRMLY.  Make sure the 'boys' don't think she is
    just kidding etc.  It may even take her more than one try to convince
    them she is serious.  (three strikes you're out, applies here)  As far
    as my courage comment above, many times the parent feels guilty about
    doing something such as this.  Afterall they are her 'babies', yes,
    counseling would help her and she should pursue that, but it also takes
    time and the longer the 'boys' are with her the tougher things will be. 
    It is time for your mom to start living HER life (even if she's up in
    years)  She has sacraficed long enough.  As far as the consequences of
    your relationship with your brothers.....honestly, what kind of
    relationship is it.  (I doubt if it's a sacrafice)  They may come to
    respect you eventually anyway.  At least you DID something with your
    life!!!!!!!!  
    
    Humorously now.....can we get two of your brothers hitched up with two
    of my sisters??? ha, ha, ha!  Then they can all live together in one
    big commune!  My parents are only in their forties (48) and I often
    subtly say things like, wouldn't you like to get on with YOUR lives? 
    and I often ask my brothers/sister (my one sister the 24 year old
    should be leaving soon if all goes well - her reason for being at home
    was to save money for a house) if they are looking for apartments, etc. 
    I often use my own experience as 'encouragement' or 'example' of how to
    make it in the world on peanuts but it is to no avail.  I know one
    thing, I don't want to take care of them for the rest of their lives. 
    I WOULD if I HAD to but these are adults who are fully capable of
    taking care of themselves!!  (They are in no way handicapped except by
    of course their no initiative)
    looks like I've rambled long enough!  
    
    good luck,
    
    Cynthia

    I hope, at least, they're paying room and board!  If not, that might be
    a good starting point.  Encourage Mom to set a reasonable,
    market-competitive price for the services she's providing.  A price
    that will allow her to hire a housekeeper to step in in her place so
    she'll have the freedom to travel and come or go at her will.  Then
    collect the fee on a regular basis, or else -- eviction.
    
    Nothing like having to pay your own way to force people to grow up REAL
    FAST.
    
    Karen          

I am of the opinion that there are two things in life a parent gives one's 
children:  Give them "roots" and give them "wings".  Looks like your brothers
lack the latter.  Now that your father has passed away, do you feel some of
the fatherly responsibility has passed on to the eldest son?  

The answer to the problem is for the sons to leave the nest.  The solution may
involve a number of options...

1) The person at risk here is your mother.  She just lost her mate and probably
   needs the time to herself.  Selling the house may be the solution if your
   mother is READY to part with the memories.  If she has many friends in the
   neighborhood she may not want to move so this is another consideration.
   Would you be prepared to have mother move in with you for a period of time?

2) Getting your brothers to move out.  Any "men" at that age still living at 
   home have only one thing on their minds, themselves.  Instead of sending a
   letter I suggest a face-to-face so that you could enlighten them about their
   parasitic ways.  Failing this, you better be prepared to "kick ass".  I 
   wouldn't worry about them hating you because they probably already do!  You
   have something they were too lazy to go after.  If you are on good terms with
   your brothers, then you have no problem.  It may be a case of turning one,
   then the two of you turn another, etc.  In any case, what would you do if a
   parasite invaded your home...

The only person you need to be sensitive to is your mother!  Hope this helps.

    It might also be useful to look at John Bradshaw's work on dysfunctional
    families. He has done a 10part tv special
    On Family that he then made into a book.
    
    and a 2 part t.v special 
    On Shame that he then made into a book.

    
    I have been struggling with how to say this politely...and having
    failed utterly...[yes, I know those of you out there who know and love
    me are wondering since when did I start being polite...welll...]
    
    This is a wild guess...based only the terribly brief scenario you paint
    and my own experiences with Mothers left without husbands.
    
    I think your Mom relyed on your Dad to make all the decisions. Could it
    be that she is now trying to rely on you? Won't work. You will forever
    sorry you did it.
    
    I have to agree with all the other well-put suggestions. This is your
    Mom's problem, and although you can be supportive and helpful...you
    can't solve it for her...you can only help her solve it herself.
    
    If you do intervene...you are letting yourself be setup as the bad guy.
    That way Mom doesn't have to take *responsibility* for her actions or
    wishes...*you* did it, so it is your fault if everybody is hurt and
    ungrateful and upset.
    
    Yes...I know they {mom's...I got two}...never *mean* to put their
    children in such a position..but they do. 
    
    IMHO...stay out of it. It's not *you* who want them to move out...it is
    *she*. Help her get the courage to say so...but don't say it for her.
    
    Melinda

    I think that helping her decide what she wants by giving her as many 
    options to thinkj about, Moving, staying, Traveling, having sons move,
    making them pay rent,making them keep house while she travels.... Have 
    her brain storm about what she wants to do and possible ideas about how
    to comunicate her desires(demands if needed) to her sons that may be 
    hindering her fullfillment of her plans/dreams.
    
    Remind her she is not responcible for her Adult sons as she has raised
    them and provided for them and now they need to fend for themselves
    in order to become better human beings. 
    
    I do believe that she needs to do the requesting and/or demanding but
    a strong arm needs to be their to back her up. At worst you both could
    look into the legalities of restraining orders, at best they could see
    that this is the best for mom and leave passivly.
    
    If their was a feeling that she intimidated by them because of a real
    fear of retribition or revenge then I would request assistance from the
    local seniors group. Help her built a larger support group of people
    who would check on her and help her if neccisary. I gather you are 
    pretty far away from the sitiation. So a local group of friends who
    will help her stand up for herself so she can create her own life.
    
    janet
    

    I don't really have any answer to offer, but I can certainly relate to
    your problem.  My brother, who is 33, refuses to get out also.  He has
    a small odd-job business on the side, so their yard and garage is full 
    of truck parts, tools and just plain junk.  He pays some (very little)
    room-and-board but if he's forced to buy groceries or whatever for the
    house, he will deduct it from his "rent".  My mother cooks all his
    meals and does his laundry.  But if by some miracle, he does the
    laundry, he does only his own and not anybody else's.  In addition to
    all this, he is incredibly rude and disrepectful to my parents.  
    
    A few years ago when I started getting on my father's case about all
    this, he said he could never kick out one of his sons.  But now he
    regrets that he didn't.  My father has a very bad heart and emphysema
    and the added stress of having my brother around is slowly killing him.
    My parents have put the house up for sale, but Peter seems to think
    that they'll never sell it.  The bright spot in all this is
    that Peter is engaged to be married next May.  You can bet that the
    whole family is praying that this marriage goes through! 
    
    It's a tough situation and I hope that you and your mother come up with
    a resolution soon.  
    
    Ellen

>    I have to agree with all the other well-put suggestions. This is your
>    Mom's problem, and although you can be supportive and helpful...you
>    can't solve it for her...you can only help her solve it herself.
    
Yah! what Melinda said.

If you bring up the subject to your brothers, they will end up
badmouthing you to mother ... who will then feel caught in the
middle.

As for your brothers, if probed not too deeply, they would 
probably say they're being nice guys, living at home, helping
the old lady out.  They'd like to get their own place, but
how could they leave mom all alone!!!

Meigs (who nearly fainted when I discovered that one of
       my brother's was singing this song of rationalization
       to himself.)

    Thanks for the responses...there's no question but that I should not
    write the letter, and, had I not entered this note, and, read your
    replies, there is no question but that I would have written the letter,
    then, regretted it....

    I think that the approach that I will take is that of supporting my
    mother, and, when appropriate, planting "seeds" in her mind ... that
    she should tell them to get the hell out and find a job and a place to
    live....agreed?

    Jerry

    Good approach, however, do you have a contingency plan?
    
    Now that you know what you are going to do, what are you going to tell
    your mother?  What if she were to ask you for direct involvement?  I
    guess what this boils down to is that it is a family matter so that
    makes you already deeply involved.  I saw much truth in many of the
    replies and the thing that comes to mind is that "you can't teach an
    old dog new tricks", refering to both your mother and brothers.
    
    Best of luck to you...

>    I think that the approach that I will take is that of supporting my
>    mother, and, when appropriate, planting "seeds" in her mind ... that
>    she should tell them to get the hell out and find a job and a place to
>    live....agreed?

Jerry,

Plant gentle, positive seeds.  I empathize with your mother, as I 
have earned several grades of 'doormat' badges in my life. A lot of
friends helped me in many ways, and looking back, I find that
the "you-can-do-it's" and "you-deserve-it's" contributed much more
than the "kill-the-bum's".  In fact, the "kill-the-bum's" scared me!

Telling a non-assertive person to "kill-the-bum" is like telling
a neophyte singer to tackle Carnegie Hall. A little too much of
a challenge. :) :)

In sum, she will probably respond better to "you deserve your 
privacy" than to "get rid of dos bums!" More harmonious with
her character.

    re .1
    
    Basically I agree. You need to be clear where your mother stands on the
    whole situation and options, help her decide what she wants, if she
    needs help, let her ask for your help in accomplishing that if she
    needs help, then the hell with the brothers. Let them hate you, if they
    have to. they're just 3  app-35-yr-old children who need to grow up.
    
    ....Bob
    

    Well ... looks like the straw broke the camel's back this morning.

    My mother called to let me know that she's given my three brothers
    their "walking papers" ... I'm going to Houston as soon as possible
    and help her to clean the place up (they've done NOTHING) ... we're
    going to sell the house, buy her another one, take the remaining cash
    and invest it wisely so that combined with her sociable security she
    can live reasonably well for her remaining days ... wish me luck.

    Jerry

    Good luck to you and your mother Jerry....

    
    Good luck Jerry!
    Some supportive thoughts coming your way to you and your mother...
    
    'gail

    You have to do what you feel is right for your mother Jerry.  My
    thoughts are with ya hun.
    
    Lynne
    

    Jerry... as with the rest I wish you well.  It's good to see that your
    Mother finally "Saw the Light" and they have been "dumbed"
    
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