Conference quark::human_relations-v1

"Potentially great relationship"?  Doesn't sound like it to me.  I would find
the behavior of your SO so irritating that I would end the relationship.

Constructive criticism is fine, but the manner in which it is delivered makes
all the difference.

Perhaps you should hand your SO the book "Parent Effectiveness Training
(P.E.T.)".  The concepts and techniques it describes are applicable to far
more than parent-child relationships, and it certainly opened my eyes to
why I was having such a hard time relating to people when I first read it
some eight or nine years ago.

For you, I think you have to decide what you actually expect to find in
your relationship, rather than its "potential".  Few of us ever fully
realize our potential.

				Steve

Re:          <<< Note 1001.0 by GVA01::LANGTON "Theo Langton @GEO" >>>

>    "What is YOUR 10-point plan for renewing the romance in our 
>    relationship"? As if everything were up to me. 

	10 point plan?  I think all you need is a 1 point plan:



	Dump her without delay!

	IMHO, of course.

	Bob

    
    This doesn;t look like it's going to be a mutually satisfying
    relationship, to put it gently.
    I think I'd start looking for the exit sign, pronto.
    
    
    								Hank

    Does she have *any* redeeming values that might make you want to
    continue with her?
    
    If yes, I'd still consider whether I' d want to live my life that
    way.
    
    If not, why are you still subjecting yourself to that kind of misery?
    
      Alan

    This relationship sounds as if it can be summed up in one word...
    
    
    "Goodbye!"
    
    
    Good luck!
    
    Barb

She sounds like my mother. Still trying to fix everyone, including her
46 yr. and 37 yr. old "children."  An unmitigated bitch.  There's no reality
but her own and everyone else is WRONG.  Cuts you to the quick with a flash
of the tongue.

I'd suggest dumping her and finding someone Kind, Supportive, and Open Minded.

IMO,
Paula

    I have to agree with the previous replies.  I would rather have no one
    in my life than someone who treated me the she treats you.  You sound
    like a flexible person who's willing to compromise, someone who's
    thoughtful of another's feelings before your own... you should have no
    problem finding a new SO who will reciprocate!
    
    MTCW,
    
    Diane

You wouldn't be living with my ex wife, now would you?

I'm no expert but somehow I don't think it will ever be any different. The
first paragraph describes my ex perfectly, and she was that way for the almost
15 years we were married.  

And I have a 19 year old son that inherited many of her traits.


I agree with everyone else..pack your bags, say adios and get out of town.




Jim

    There must be something about your SO that makes you love her. 
    I think when you wrote your note you may have been a bit upset and
    unobjective... therefore I do not recommend "dumping" her, just
    yet.
    
    Is she aware of how she behaves?  Do you try to talk to her with
    a calm and collected manner, with out flying off the handle?  I
    suspect there are some major communicaton problems.  If I were you
    I'd print out you notes-entry and let her read it.  She'll read
    and see your confusion and sincerity, without the yelling.
    
    Sometimes writing is the best way to communicate...
    
    Good Luck,            Kathy
    

re .9:

If she's like I think she is from .0, then I wouldn't recommend showing her
any of this!  She'd think he/we are all wrong, and she's right, and she'd
make his life miserable for a while.  She wouldn't see his frustration, she'd
just see he's doing something she doesn't approve of, and get angry.

    	I had an "experience" very similar to what you have described, also
    after the collapse of a marriage. Fortunately, it did not last too
    long.
    	
    	Looking back, I realize the only reason I put up with it for as
    long as I did was because I had not yet recovered from the severance of
    my marriage. 
    
    	If your description is accurate, you are being subjected to
    emotional blackmail and manipulation by a very destructive person. End
    it now, before more harm is done to you and your son. 
    
    	Don't associate with people who treat you badly. If
    that means living alone for awhile, so be it. Once you regain your
    emotional balance, you will do this naturally. 
    
    	Good luck.

    Often (usually) anger is a mask for fear.  I wonder if she is
    afraid, and if so, of what?
    
    I would be most concerned about your child.  If I read correctly,
    she was angry with you because your (very young) son wanted to 
    ride with his dad.  I wonder why that disturbs her?  
    
    The key sentence was "...the house is on fire and you're saying
    'Don't talk angrily'."  When danger threatens, people don't yell
    out of anger.  They yell out of fear. 
    
    Perhaps the book "Getting The Love You Want" might be of interest
    and assistance to you (both).
    
    Deborah
    
    

    I agree with .11 (Deb)
    
    Anger *can* be a mask for fear, but also insecurity.  Have you tried to
    *really* talk to her about what's bothering her, or do you shut her off
    or ignore the situation when she tries to bring it up?
    
    Normally I'm really loving, and supportive.  But when the insecurities
    fall into place (for reasons I won't go into), I myself can turn from a
    sweetheart to an "unmitigated" b*tch!  Or else I go into the "ice
    princess" mode.  Supposed to be to *protect myself* from rejection,
    when all it does is serve to tick off my SO because he *knows* it isn't
    like me to be that way!
    
    Ask her what is *really* bugging her.  Maybe she fears losing you.  Or
    she's jealous of the child?
    
    Good luck (and many hugs - you can work this out!)
    
    tammi
    
    

No one has the right to change you ('cept you). If she
doesn't love you for who you are right now, then she doesn't
love you.

>    I am hurt by this anger, but don't feel it's always
     right to give into other's demands just to have their
     approval and love.

Here's further proof that she doesn't "love" you.  Love
doesn't need to be "won".. it's just there.

It's best to move on.  She apparently needs someone more
like herself. Someone who is "without fault".

                         
    
    

    Re: all your replies, for which I'm very grateful.
    
    Perhaps I gave the wrong impression. Let me be more critical so that 
    maybe I'll learn more. 
    
    This woman really cares about herself and about me. She quit living in 
    the US to come live with me, as she recognizes I can't leave my son 
    right now. She thinks I have lots of qualities and makes me feel 
    appreciated. She gives energy, imagination and enthusiasm to our 
    relationship. She's very insightful. She gets me to take a hard look at 
    myself and take real action towards the things I want to change. She's 
    fun, she's creative, daring, unpredictable, alive. I really appreciate 
    all these things in her.
    
    What is hard is that she will take certain things very personally. For 
    example, her mother died when she was young, and she never felt her 
    stepmother really included her in "the family". Hence the 
    hypersensitivity to my son riding on her bicycle. I try to recognize 
    these things and to talk to her about it, but it is not always easy, 
    since she is very proud as well.
    
    She also has a flair for the dramatic, calling me a jerk, turkey, etc, 
    half-jokingly and half-seriously. I am not used to being called these 
    things, and instead of responding humorously, I'm hurt and get mad. She 
    takes the bull by the horns in every way and expects others to be the 
    same. 
    
    I believe noone can know what is exactly right for another person, 
    since we each see the world through our own lenses. I would much rather 
    someone be happy with themselves and encourage another to be happy in 
    her/his own way than to demand that another live up to *our* standards 
    for what is *good* for them.
    
    But, she says, "detachment" in conversations or relationships is for 
    people who don't really care. To be with someone means to be 
    passionately involved with *their* problems, and to expect the same 
    from them. To me, after it passes a certain point, this "passionate 
    involvement" is parasitic. What do you think?
    
    And thanks for your replies!
    Theo
    
    
    

    
    Last year, I had this kind of situation. It was very difficult because
    I had a decicion to make. And that was my  problem.
    
    Of course, I loved him more and more, but in the reality, I was
    in the obligation to recognize that he did not give me what I am
    waiting for.
    
    So, I had a lot of courage (maybe for the first time of my life!)
    and asked him what I am waiting from the man I love, and asked him
    too to tell me what he wanted from a woman.
    I had no answer ... So I told him that I did not see why we continue
    to see each other in this case.
    
    And a week later, he decided to stop our relation !
    It was very difficult for me because he was my great love, but I
    could not accept to live without communication, without objectives,
    without sharing ...
    
    And just for hope : Now, we are together, and one day at a time,
    we try to discuss and to understand each other, to help each other,
    all is not perfect, sure !
    
    My opinion in your situation is that you must answer to you at that
    question : what do you want from a woman ? Is she the woman who
    could give what you want ?
    
    And listen to your heart to take your decision.
    
    Annie
    

    
    
    I read a book that changed my view on relationships.  Unfortunately,
    I can't remeber the name of the book, but perhaps someone else can?  It
    was written by a psychiatrist about his therapy sessions.  He worked
    with another, male psychiatrist and his patients were all in one
    family.  The family had some major problems that centered on the son
    ... Anybody know of the book yet?  The main point of the book ended up
    that the husband and wife's relationship was the real problem. The wife
    expected the husband to take care of her and the husband expected
    something similar in return.  Once we think that our partner should
    "take care of us" that puts alot of responsiblity and stress on the
    relationship.  I think that if your S.O. read this, she wouldn't want
    that responsibility.  She would see what it does over time.  
    
    Rachael
    

    
    	RE: .0
    
    	I know just how you feel, I was married to just such a person
    	for over 12 years!! First it starts out "but, I love you so much
    	and can see you'd be much happier if YOU made this one little
    	change". Then it gets to be "can't you ever do anything right
    	unless I'm right there to lead you by the hand". Then it moves
    	on to "jeez, that damn jerk buddy of yours puts all kinds of
    	funny thoughts into your dumb head and you just follow along,
    	why don't you listen to ME, I know what makes you happy and is
    	best for YOU". The final straw came when it started to sound
    	somethink like "Well, your thoughts are all wrong and one of
    	these days YOU'll smarten up and start thinking the way I am,
    	then you'll realize I was right all along".
    
    	Tell me, does she try to pick your friends for you? Only likes
    	the ones she did pick, and really detests the ones you picked?
    	Do you have to ask her permission to make any decisions about
    	your time and outside efforts? (ie can your friends ask you to
    	go play golf or fishing without you needing permission from her
    	before you can go)
    
    	Dump her!! It will only get worse, never any better!! Before I
    	ended my relationship, it had got so bad I lost all selfrespect
    	for myself without knowing it. She had managed to kill any and all
    	thinking on my part, I had to run everything by her to get her
    	approval or face two to three months of pure hell afterwards.
    	Worse yet, she was always so right that even the time I was in
    	the hospital in the respiratory intensive care unit and given
    	less than 48 hours to live (what do doctors know ;^} ), she
    	demanded I was only faking it and they were all a bunch of 
    	fools for not knowing this and not being able to see it.
    
    	Save yourself alot of heartache later by ending it now!
    
    	G_B

    
    I suggest:  DANCE OF ANGER	and it's sequel: DANCE OF INTIMACY
    
    Both of you could use these books.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    Sherry

    I think that if she has her problems, it certainly isn't fair for
    her to continuously unload them on you. Whatever the cause of them,
    there's no reason why you should be dragged down into the mud because
    of them. You have a son to worry about. And he'll see a lot of things.
    It can't be worth it.......
    
    Grab the first parachute you find and bail out..........
    
    ....Bob

    re: .15 (Theo)
    
    � But, she says, "detachment" in conversations or relationships is for 
    � people who don't really care. To be with someone means to be 
    � passionately involved with *their* problems, and to expect the same 
    � from them. To me, after it passes a certain point, this "passionate 
    � involvement" is parasitic. What do you think?
    
    It seems to me that if she really cares about problems, then she
    would be extremely interested in solutions.  I think I would ask
    her if she feels that solutions between couples should involve 
    compromise, because if she believes that, then she must be willing
    to consider that neither of you has a lock on almighty "truth".
    
    Yes, I'd agree that passion has an important place in any good,
    long-lasting relationship.  But to sacrifice is all detachment
    or objectivity on the alter of passion is, I believe, to make
    a critical mistake in any relationship.  Passion, like detachment
    is a double-edged sword - on the one side, it can cut through walls
    of fear and isolation that people sometimes build up around them
    (and which take on the appearance of detachment), but it can also
    cut the lines of communication, sometimes fatally (the clich�s
    "blind passion" and "crime of passion" exists because they're so 
    often the case).  What good is all this "passion" if it only 
    leads to unproductive shouting sessions?  
    
    Another point: just because I care about another's "problem"
    (i.e. what *I perceive* the problem to be) doesn't necessarily
    mean that I will know the best solution.  
    
    It seems to me that a central issue here is control.  It sounds
    like she's trying very hard to control all aspects of the relation-
    ship and I don't think that's healthy for either of you (not to
    mention you as a couple).  And it sounds like this is aggravated
    by problems in communication.  My suggestion would be to seek a
    professional third party such as a couples counselor.  My guess
    would be that she'll resist this idea and if she does, I'd suggest
    to her that if she's so passionately committed to the success of
    the relationship, then she should be willing to try any avenue
    that might help.  After all, it's always possible that a counselor
    will say that she's entirely right.  (My guess is that if she 
    resists, it's because she understands deep down that no one can
    be 100% "right" all the time in a relationship and counseling might
    therefore represent a challange to the parts of her that cling so
    tightly to trying to control situations).
    
    In any case, if she accepts, you can take if from there (btw, EAP
    can help in recommending possible counselors and I'd take as much
    care to let her know that you're willing to shop around until you
    find a counselor with whom she's reasonably comfortable).  If she
    refuses, then I think you need to ask yourself what that refusal
    means to you.  How important is the concept of compromise to you
    in a long term relationship?
    
    Steve

	Re .0 -

	Sounds to me like she's really very insecure about herself. Maybe that's
why she's so into taking control, into taking on inappropriate responsibilities
and - the big clue here - "never admits she may be mistaken".

	I see she had a trauma in her family when she was young. Well, it 
happens, and must have caused terrible feelings of abandonment for her! It 
also happens that stepmothers sometimes may withold love and affection from 
the husband's previous wife's child. That's exactly what happened to my Mom...
No doubt in my mind that this could lead to someone who, as an adult, never
had their "inner child's" security needs fully met. Which is a legitimate
need everyone has!

	This can manefest itself in many ways later in the adults life. For my
Mom, she became the "caretaker", vowing that her child would "never have to 
suffer the way she did". Though her intentions were perhaps noble and I
did not in fact suffer the way she did, I suffered in other ways - mostly
from being cared for a little too much! I mention this because "caretaking", 
by definition, is taking on someone elses responsibility that is really
not yours - like her supposedly saving you from yourself.

	Other key attributes I see in your entry and reply - which may reflect 
back to her original family's trauma - 

	- The angry criticism and unrealistic expectations of you
	- Pride, as a tool of denial
	- Having a flair for the dramatic
	- The inappropriate behavior of "name calling"
	- Withdrawing emotionally
	- Belittling the ability detach emotionally from another person
	- Having her past, repressed emotions triggered via current events.
	    
	Though you want to undo this anger of hers "and be in love", the same 
thing applies for you in that it's really her responsibility to address this.
She's so clearly unable to look at herself and see herself as part of what's 
going on in your relationship! You might mention to her, as a start, that
it takes *two* "problem people" to make a "problem relationship", and that a 
trully healthy person would not have made the mistake of getting involved with 
"you and all your problems" in the first place! Something else is going
on!
    
	You see, the very act of her focusing it all on you, trying to change 
*you*, seeing only your problems as the cause of it all etc, is just a strategy 
to keep the focus off herself. Placing the focus on herself is likely something 
that she finds extremely painful to do. For this "anger" of hers to be undone,
she'll have to *want to* focus on herself. She'll only want to when the pain 
from the consequences of her being this way gets bad enough - for her.

    	I hope that the consequences is not "the ending of your relationship".

	Joe Jasniewski
    
    

    
    
    Many of the issues raised in notes following mine are also addressed
    in the book I recommended (Getting The Love You Want).   This is a 
    book for couples, designed to allow the couple to do their own rela-
    tionship counselling while at the same time addressing individual
    problem areas.  Co-dependent issues are some of the areas discussed
    and explored.  It's worth looking at.
    
    DK
    

    Do you think you have a "relationship" going? WHAT is THAT?
    From what I've read so far... I would exit immediately and would
    never subject MY SON to anyone even close to her... You should expect
    LOVE from her, but I don't think she knows what that is...
    Hopefully she'll sometime, somewhere, will find it, but believe me,
    at the moment... she does not know what LOVE is.  Keep on looking
    because it is not near her....
    

    
    
    Theo, I want to acknowledge you for signing your note.  I get so
    tired of all the people that put anonymous stories of woe in this
    conference.
    
    I thank you Leo for having the honesty, courage, and esteem to be
    up front in this painful situation.  With bravery like that, you're
    guaranteed to come out of this in a healthy way, whatever you decide.
    
    /Eric
    
    

    Er, Eric. His name *is* Theo.
    
    One out of three ain't bad, though. :-)
    
       Alan

    Re:0
    
    No human being should be subjected to that type of treatment! 
    
    
    Give her the ol' walkin' papers!
    
    Good Luck!
    
    Lynne

    
    
    
    	this is not a potentially a great relationship at all....if fact it 
    
    	sounds pretty awful to me, the sooner you get out of it the better
    
    	off you'll be. I've been there before...hind sight is wonderful.
    

    
    
    Of course we will all be waiting to hear the outcome of this situation!
    

    If neither of you can live with each other or the relationship EXACTLY
    as it is today, then I think you have to start faces the fact that this
    isn't going to work.  Oh, it might work for a few weeks at a time and
    then BANG, but who wants to live like that.  I have heard this advise
    given over and over again on shows like Phil Donahue, Oprah, Sally
    Jessie, etc. from many, many different marriage counsellors and
    psychologists and I have experienced it myself and it's true.  Unfor-
    tunately, I think what happens is we all want to think it'll get better
    if we do "just one more thing" to make the other person happy.  Well,
    guess what?  It's not ANYONES job to make another person happy.  It is
    up to that individual and it sounds to me as though your SO is lookingh
    for you to do that for her.  Besides my own experience with trying to
    do this for another (and believe me, it is the most exhausting and
    unsuccessful task I have ever undertaken) I had a very close male
    friend who not too long ago went through exactly what you seem to be
    going though.  This woman was jealous of his daughter and the time he
    spent with her and was always finding fault with his daughter, but
    never with her own.  She was always telling him what he had to do to
    make the relationship better because it was always his fault that
    things weren't going as they should.  Needless to say, I would tell
    him the same thing over and over, "she's not going to change and if
    you can't live with things the way they are now, get out".  It took him
    a few years, but he finally did get out and is so much happier now and
    is in love with someone who is so much better suited for him.  The
    other woman never did change and most insecure, unhappy people don't
    unless they are willing to get some help and even that generally takes
    a llllllllooooooooonnnnnnnnnngggggggg time.
    
    I have to ask something.  You said this is following a recent and still
    very painful divorce.  How recent?  I guess what I'm getting at is the
    reasons youprobably are living with this woman so soon after the
    divorce is probably contributing to the fact that it might never work.
    Sounds as though you were afraid to be alone for a while and just get
    your own head screwed on straight and determine what you will and will
    not accept in a SO the next time around.  Maybe you need to do this
    first before you start up with someone again.  It is lonely being alone
    sometimes, but that makes sense.  It sure as hell beats being lonely
    with someone or feeling alone when you are living with someone!
    
    My present SO and I had been through the wringer with the people we 
    were with before we met each other.  I have been with this person for
    5 years, living with him for a little over 1 year now and the one thing
    we have promised each other is that if anything were to happen to this
    relationship, we would NEVER settle for anything less than what we have
    together.  I think that is something that you might want to give some
    good, hard thoughts about.  You and your son are worth not "settling"
    just for the sake of not being alone!
    
    Good luck and God Bless!  Remember, every one of us deserves to be
    happy.
    

    I would like to offer my two cents, if it's not to late. There are
    almost as many stories of the nagging SO as there are SO's and yes
    I too would like to share one with you.
    
    The first three years of my marriage was a free-fall to destruction.
    My up bringing taught me to let things roll off my shoulder. There
    is nothing worth getting an ulcer about. I would therefore handle
    situations in a very calm fasion. No yelling, screaming or throwing
    of large breakable objects. My wife, however, was just the opposite.
    If the smallest thing went wrong, her whole day was ruined. Me,
    being the closest to her would then grin and bare the full power
    of her fury. After three years the situation was out of control.
    
    At that time we had a three year old son, who was the only thing
    keeping us together. Over the years I had figured out that the
    problem was self esteem. I had it and she didn't. It was due to
    not getting any of it when she was growing up. We were at the
    point of talking about divorce when something miraculously happened
    to turn our lives around.
    
    We discovered/rediscovered God. Not religion, not holier than !@#$#@
    attitudes, not I'm perfect and your not, not cross burning holy
    rollers, but God. This new relationship with God hit hard but then
    grew slowly over the past five years. It all started with getting
    involved with a church. Not simply going one hour a week, but being
    active. Teaching sunday school, serving on one or two committees,
    participating in the care-giving network and getting involved with
    people who share our own thirst for the knowledge of God, and express
    it with their love for one another. We've also been attending a
    Bible study group with about a dozen good friends of ours.
    
    I finally realized that I had no control over what my wife did or
    said or how she was raised. But God made a change in her for the
    better and also in me. All we had to do was give God a chance and he
    seized the opportunity and made our life into something I didn't think
    possible. My wife even has self esteem now. We also have added two more
    children to our household and have never been happier even in our
    pre-married life.
    
    The philosophies that are written in the Bible, really do work.
    Most of them sound illogical but some how they work. If you just
    give them a chance.
    
    -- Joe --