Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Ok I will be the first one to reply on this. Your freind should sort
    out her feelings and think rational.  This guy she is dating is taking
    her for a ride, and as much as he loves her, personally my opinion is
    to end the relationship.  If he backed out once or twice, what makes
    her think that he wont back out again when they are married. Divorces
    are not cheap, so before she goes through the agony, it is better for
    her to end it now.  There are other fish in the sea as I say, and there
    will be someone out there that will treat her like a queen.
    
    I wish your friend luck.
    
    Lynne

 It sounds like this guy is using her to have as a "steady" while also getting
time off to "gather ye rosebuds." He's not ready for the type of relationship
she apparently wants. Flush 'im.

 The Doctah

    � Should I support her in trying to stick with this relationship 
    � and make it work because she feels there is so much good in it, 
    � or should I suggest that this guy is never going to make a 
    � committment and maybe it's time to bail out before she gets hurt 
    � again? 	
    
    Based on what you wrote about them, I find it difficult to make 
    a stay/go judgement for her.  It'd be one thing if he was physically 
    or emotionally abusive, but that doesn't appear to be the case.  On 
    the other hand, it seems clear that he has some significant problems 
    with the idea of commitment.
    
    Perhaps there's another alternative for you (and them).  Might
    it be possible to suggest to her that they seek out a professional
    couples counsellor?  In your position, I think I'd try to encourage 
    them to work this out together with the help of someone who's trained
    to deal with this kind of thing.  What such a person can do is help 
    them (him particularly, from the sound of it) clarify the issues and, 
    in a mutually supportive atmosphere, learn to use interpersonal tools 
    for working through such issues.
    
    Steve
    
    

    
    I appreciate that you must feel for your friend's confusion, and
    I also agree with some of the views in the preceeding notes.
    
    Just my view on your position though.........at a time like this 
    I'd listen endlessly to my friend's problems and empathise with them, 
    but I would never state my opinion like "Drop him" or "Stay with it".
    
    From the outside no-one can ever truly understand the dynamics of
    someone else's relationship.......
    
    'gail
     

    I agree that you shouldn't offer specific advice.  It's her life
    and her decision, and a best friend's role is to help the friend
    understand her own feelings, not to make decisions for her or
    pressure her into decisions.
    
    A year isn't very long to decide whether you want to spend your
    life with somebody else.  You might want to suggest that she take
    a little time for herself, too -- not necessarily with the
    intention of breaking up, but just to explore her own interests
    and needs.  Maybe that would help her understand more clearly what
    she needs out of a relationship and whether her present man is
    going to meet those needs.  

    yeah I agree with these people previously.  It's great to have a
    freind who will empathise, but it's always risky to offer advice
    as strong as 'dump him' or 'keep him'.  
    
    But since you ask...it sounds like this guy has a bit to work through
    personally and she shouldn't get in the way.  And he can't expect
    her to magically correct things for himself.  If you have problems
    and you are in a relationship these problems are going to work
    themselves into the relationship.  He just sounds a little unsure
    of himself or he may be arrogant enough to want to have his cake
    and eat it too!!!
    
    best fishes to your freind - - swimming in the ocean of emotion....
    
    joe p.

If I were in your friends shoes I'd probably put on my detective
hat and find out more about this guy from other sources (i.e., close
friends, relatives).  It could be a common thing with him to commit
to a relationship and then back out.  If she finds out this is true,
she should think twice before continuing the relationship.  

Michelle

    	Whew, can I feel for your friend on this one.  That's gotta be one
    of the most frustrating things, someone who is confused and lost and
    puts you through h*ll because of it.


    	I've been there, I know.  They say one thing, push for it, and then
    if you finally go that way they turn around 180 degrees and go back the
    other way!  You don't know whether you're coming or going.  You feel
    like no matter what you do, you'll lose; and you know what?  The sad
    part is you're *right*.


    	Basically, I feel they do it because they don't know what's inside
    of *themselves*.  If they don't know themselves, how can they know what
    they want or need from others?  So, they keep bouncing around trying to
    find out what they need from you when the answers can only be found
    within themselves.  Meanwhile, your emotions are bouncing around right
    along with them.


    	As for "taking time out", I dunno...it seems to me someone in a
    committed relationship should be able to work through things *with* the
    other person.  I feel this business of taking time out all the time is
    for the birds and would indicate, at least to me, a certain lack of
    maturity.  I'm not saying folks don't need time away from each other,
    far from it; but if there's a problem, it will *only* be solved by
    working together.


    	Gee, I guess I feel sorta strongly here....  ;-)  Anyway, the
    bottom line is that I don't think you can advise your friend either way
    no matter how much you want to.  Eventually, either this will all work
    out (although I'd be surprised if it did, based on my experience) or
    she will finally get fed up with it and leave.  This is one of those
    things that people have to figure out and decide for themselves.


    	Best of luck,


    Brian

I agree with previous respondents.  Unless your friend specifically asks for
your honest opinion, be wary of offering unsolicited advice.  Spare a good
friendship by biting your tongue now and offering support, if necessary, later.
One of the cardinal rules of friendship is to keep your mouth closed with
regard to a friend's spouse, SO, parents, children, siblings, other friends,
etc.  Love is blind, and your friend may still think that her beau hangs the
moon, even after 4 breaks in one year, and even regardless of what she herself
says about him at this time.  For example, it might be okay for her make
unflattering comments about him while feeling low, but negative comments from
you or others would probably be very badly received.  She might resent you if
you express an honest, but unrequested, opinion or pass judgement on her 
current situation.  You stand only to lose her friendship, especially since
your friend's comprehension of this situation sounds irrational right now. 
After 4 breakups, she is STILL convinced that she and her beau share common
goals and commitments.  Your friend's loyalty is admirable, but it has gone way
too far. 

However, since you asked for our opinions!!!

I see at least 2 scenarios waiting to be played out:

1)  Your friend can cut her losses and make an amicable, clean break now.
    Immediately painful for the short term, but healthier in the long run than 
    sticking with a contradictary person who still harbors mixed emotions 
    after one year and 4 breaks.  I'm not saying that the guy has no feelings 
    for your friend.  However, from your description, he sounds more like 
    friend material than a potential husband.

2)  Your friend can continue playing along with this guy.  One day, not so 
    out of the blue, she may hear:  "I realize now that I never loved you and 
    no longer wish to be a husband or father."  The pain associated with this 
    form of rejection (for both wife and children) will last a lifetime.  Also,
    if children are involved, this guy will become an unshakable albatross 
    around your friend's neck for about 18 years.

I hope that it all works out for the best.  Either way, your friend is
very fortunate that this guy has sent up 4 giant red flags during the course 
of only one year.  If she chooses to ignore the flags, that is her prerogative. 
Sadly, many women experience scenario #2 without the benefit of such blatant 
forwarnings.  In the end, I think that this fellow's bizarre actions and dated
"finding himself" cliches speak far more "honestly" than he gives himself 
credit for.

Shawn
    

    RE: .0
    In the course of just one day I hear very few positive things
    about marriage.
    Sometimes I'am terrified by the things married people say...
    
    seeing unhappy relationships often causes me to step back and
    really think through the idea of dating one woman...becoming
    engaged and then getting married....
    
    I only imagine that the fellow in question here may have PLENTY on
    his mind...it is obvious to me that he cares about his girlfriend...
    it is also obvious to me that he wants to make sure he does the 
    right thing
    
    Instead of suggesting to your girlfriend to "Bail-Out", suggest
    that she and her boyfriend have a heart-to-heart, where she listens
    to whats on his heart, and he listens to her
    
    christophr

    Theres nothing wrong with marriage INHERENTLY, any more than there is
    anything wrong with any sort of general committment.
    
    However, sometimes people are committed to the wrong things without
    realizing it ("wrong" meaning wrong for them PERSONALLY- I don't much
    believe ANYTHING is right or wrong for everybody).
    
    And, since marriages are normally between two people, and people often
    don't communicate very well, you are talking about two individual
    people, making committments that may not be right for each
    individually, and on top of that, the actual committments the two
    DIFFERENT people have can be completely misunderstood or unexpected by
    the other party, and also may not be compatible.
    
    For example, one person thinks marriage means living together and
    enjoying the single life with another person, and continuing thier
    single lifestyle with the benefit of two incomes.  The other may think
    that marriage means buying a house, having children, putting all the
    spare money in a bank account for the college fund, and taking pleasure
    from simply watching the children grow.
    
    Two people THIS different would NEVER get married, RIGHT?????  Wrong!
    
    Marriage is the one interpersonal human relationship where communication
    is of utmost importance, and one where communication is frequently the
    worst.  Too much at stake, too much gamesmanship, etc.
    
    People that have survived one of these bad marriages (or just witnessed
    one) understand how two well-meaning, well-intentioned, loving caring
    individuals can totally screw up.  Even after YEARS of living
    successfully in a difficult, hard to cope with world which should have
    taught them everything they needed to know to be successful.
    
    Its not hard to understand why a person might feel that its important
    to warn someone away from such an experience, especially if the person
    is already indicating doubts or concern.
    
    But MARRIAGE is not the problem.  PEOPLE are the problem.  AND the
    solution.  
    
    Jim (who grew up surrounded by good marriages and the fruits of them,
    but hasn't successfully negotiated the path himself)
    

I may understand to some extent what is going on here... cos I've been doing to
my other half exactly the same as her guy is doing...

I have been bailing in and out of this relationship for over 18
months now...

The reasons I spout for this are numerous... but along the lines of

"I really want to split, but I want to let him down gently"
"I'm scared of being alone... so when he gets close to agreeing with me
I panic and take him back"
"He's totally convinced I'm doing the wrong thing... I think I'm doing the
right thing, but what if I'm wrong??"

After 18 months we are now "splitting" but I will believe it when the papers
to sell the house are actually signed.  I am getting a lot of pressure to "give
it one more go" and am really fighting it...

Maybe I'm wrong, but as long as I'm not totally commited then I don't think we
should go on...  if your friends guy is feeling the same way as me, then what he
really wants is for her to take the reponsibility of ending the relationship....

Maybe, he's a coward like me... sounds like it...


One other piece of rambling, based on experience - if she asks for your advice,
and you advise her to drop him, be there for her... 





Xtine

    18 months - magic number.  It took me about that long, and it had to
    happen in the heat of a fight to boot!
    
    Course, we didn't have any property to divide - one day we were 
    an item, and one day not.  But it still took a while to get past:
    
    "Well, its not heaven (sometimes its hell), but alone won't be any
    better - maybe worse"
    
    No one can say whats right for anyone else (other than to hypothesize)
    but the hardest thing I had to do was sort out messages from my heart
    from insecurity messages being sent out by my mind.  
    
    Just take time to listen to your "self".
    
    A fellow coward
    

    It seems that your friend's boyfriend is confused. 
    
    If your friend really has feelings for this guy, I suggest that 
    she continues to see him but not with a wedding date in mind.
    Why are they in such a hurry to get married? He is obviously
    confused and perhaps just needs some time.
    
    If she thinks he is worth the wait, why not continue the relationship
    but re-defining it first. They can both see other people, if they so
    choose and then see what happens.
    
    Logical Solution
    
    
    Gen         
    

    My sister has been through some situations, very much the same,
    sometimes she has been the recipient sometimes not.  
    
    All I can say is, I never offered her advice, I sat and I listened,
    sometimes I felt she was doing completely the wrong thing, but then
    I felt she had to find out for herself - and she did.  I look back
    on those times now when I sat in frustration listening to her, if
    I could have cushioned her in any way for the pain she has felt.
     I realise now it is easy for me to sit on the outside and be
    objective, but it wasn't that easy for her.  Be there for her when
    she hits the bottom, and maybe you can help her look back on this
    time in an objective way, so that it doesn't happen in the future.
    
    All the best...
    
    Sarah