Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Why don't you try just living with your daughter for a few months. This
    way she will gradually get to know your girlfriend without feeling the
    need to compete with her for your attention.   Your daughter will have
    so many adjustments to contend with (a new school, new living
    environment, making new friends, getting to know you again, your
    lifestyle without your wife) that adding a complete stranger to the
    picture may make things even worse.
    
    Have you considered finding her a therapist (recommended from your
    family physician) where she can develop a one-on-one relationship
    and learn to trust just one person?  Putting her in a group situation
    probably made it worse.  She had other people to compare herself to.

    The suggestion to have her stay with you for a while is a good one.
    The best time would be the summer (I think so anyway).  THis way
    she won't have the added problems of trying to socialize in school
    and the like. 
    
    But DO consider how she will view living with a woman. Teenagers
    are in the process of putting all that grown up stuff together.
    Do you think this (not marrying the lady) will send mixed messages
    to your daughter.  If you really believe her pain is psychological
    then counseling will help her, get one on one counseling.  If so,
    it sounds like she's confused and screaming for attention.  Will
    she get that attention from you and your new mate...There are so
    many questions to consider...
    
    My HONEST opinion is that Your daughter is the one who is loosing
    out in this battle.  It is appalling to see adults go to the
    trouble of having children, then getting divorced - - only to leave
    the child feeling like an odd cog in the world.  THAT is very
    damaging.  But what is done is done...(My parents have been together
    for 40 years...so I really don't speak from experience on that one).
    
    jp

    Does your daughter already know you're living with another woman? 
    Have they met each other?  I suspect that would make a big
    difference.
    
    It sounds like she'll definitely have a loving father to take care
    of her. 
    
    And if in your heart you think it's medical, keep pushing it. 
    Ninety percent of the time the parents are right about this and
    the doctors turn out to be wrong.  You and your mother know your
    daughter better than anyone else, and if a kid is in pain for
    psychological reasons, the parents are usually the first, not the
    last, to know.  
    
    --bonnie
    
    --bonnie

    Make sure that you have the medicos check out whether your daughter may
    have ileitis, colitis, Crohn's disease, or IBD (inflammatory bowel
    disease).  It requires some testing.
    
    Crohn's often hits adolescents -- not caused by, but certainly exposed
    or stimulated by stress.  It can look like other things and appear to
    be a psychological problem with physical manifestations when actually
    it is the other way around.
    
    R.
    

    I have to agree with everyone else.  I think you daughter SHOULD live
    with you.  The pain MAY be caused by her mothers new husband.  Children
    often have a long adjustment period when step-parents are brought into
    the picture.  I believe the normal adjustment period is 18 to 36
    MONTHS.   Do NOT have the girlfriend move in with you just yet.  How
    long have you known the girlfriend?  You can't be assured that the
    relationship will turn into anything "committing" yet anyway.  (ie:
    marriage)  The daughter is a part of your life that you can't
    compromise on.  If the daughter and girlfriend can adjust normally to
    one another (which remember will take TIME) then pursue the live-in
    relationship.  If the girlfriend moves in and the daughter is there and
    the tension mounts the girlfriend will start spending more and more
    time away from home anyway.   Things will probably work out if the
    girlfriend is VERY understanding.  She will have to accept that she
    will have to come second (or third) in your life for a while.  If the
    girlfriend has HOPE that your relationship can work, then even though
    she may complain from time to time, about you not spending enough time
    with her, she will stick by you and you won't lose you relationship. 
    The daughter now will need a lot of care.  YOU need to find out what
    was really happening down there in Florida.  Peer pressure, the
    remarriage and all the typical teenage things COULD be what's causing
    the pain.  If you can get through to the daughter as to how her life
    really was down there you will have helped.  (your daughter may find it
    easier to talk to a woman -- ie: the girlfriend??)  Don't rule out the
    POSSIBILITY that the new husband COULD have "done something" to your
    daughter.  It happens more than society likes to admit.  Also since
    this is your daughters LIFE that everyone is talking about, she should
    have a say in what happens to/with her.  
    By all means - DO NOT neglect the fact that the pain itself is truly
    real and don't put off medical attention, while you're looking for the
    cause.  By the way - I'm speaking from experience on all counts.  I've
    been the daughter and the girlfriend.  I hope everything goes okay, let
    us know!!   Also remember, that your daughter HAS the capability within
    herself to change her life.  She may have to hit rock bottom first or
    she may just need guidance as to how to unlease her potential but she
    can do it!  By some "gift of God", after I left home I was always able
    to "know" when I needed help and then I would go out and get it!!   I
    wish you all the luck in the world!!

    Tell you "lady" friend as well as the noting world.
    
    -dwight

    RE: 0
    
    "... the relationship is the most important thing."  If you're talking
    about the relationship between you and your 'lady' friend, YOU ARE VERY 
    WRONG.   Your daughter IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING!  All will fall
    into place if you AND your daughter know this is true.

    I don't automatically subscribe to the fact that you should dump
    everything to help your daughter.  How close you two were in the past,
    and how the chips fell in the divorce, and how much of a relationship
    you and she shared in the past would make a difference to me as to
    whether or not (if I were you) I would drop everything and cater to her
    every desire.
    
    I think from what you said before the lady friend was already living
    with you (correct me if I'm wrong).  To me this implies you love her. 
    I think it would be important to lay the groundwork both with the
    womanfriend and with the daughter about how to live in peace and
    harmony and so forth, if this will indeed happen.  I think getting
    counseling for your daughter is important, and I think it is vital to
    let them BOTH know they will not be competing for your love and
    attention against one another, but that you care for them both very
    much and wish to share your life with them both, but you won't exclude
    one for another.
    
    -Jody
    

Some 'real' sources for the pain are aggravated by stress (allergies and colitis
come to mind...)  Your daughter's problem may be a combination of things.

I was struck by the phrase 'they [ex and new husband] agreed they had to do 
something... what they came up with was to send her up to live with me'

How does your daughter feel about all this?  Does SHE want to come back to New
England (transferring to yet another new school, since it sounds as if they 
haven't been in Florida for all that long)?  Or is your ex proposing this simply
as a way of clearing up the problem with her husband, rather than as something 
they all feel would benefit your daughter?  It's not likely to help much if the
idea doesn't appeal to her - and if the cause is stress, it may just make things
worse (though having someone who believes the pain is real may compensate a lot)

Anyway, I'd advocate getting *one* of the two-person households (either you and
your ladyfriend OR you and your daughter) onto a fairly stable basis before 
adding the third person.  You may find that ANY change in lifestyle/living
arrangements can be difficult while you're adjusting to one another (especially
now that you've been used to living by yourself? :-)  None of you need the 
additional stress of trying to make a three-way adjustment.... 

(FWIW, IMHO, and other relevant disclaimers :-)
		Helen

    RE: .7

    >"... the relationship is the most important thing."  If you're talking
    >about the relationship between you and your 'lady' friend, YOU ARE VERY 
    >WRONG.   Your daughter IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING!  All will fall
    >into place if you AND your daughter know this is true.

    SET FLAME/ON

    I should have thought it was up to the basenoter to decide their 
    priorities, not you. How dare you tell him he's 'WRONG', just because
    his priorities are not necessarily the same as yours? As to everything
    falling into place, these situations are just NOT THAT SIMPLE!!!!!

    Grrrr!!

    SET FLAME/OFF

    I feel better now I've got that off my chest!

    June.

re .7 and .10

I can't help agreeing with June (.-1).

NO ONE can know the real feelings and situation of the base noter except
themselves. If this is the place to tell people how to feel then I am
in the wrong file.

To .0:
Your words are heart rending and it must be terrible to have to try to
ballance these things. I can't tell you an answer, that's something
only you can find in time. I offer my ear and my hand. Talk as much
as you need and hold on to someone who isn't too mixed up in it all.
Please add more here if you want, or Mail, or face to face with someone.
Best thoughts.

Love ... Trevor

    Thank you all for your help!!! I can't say enough about all the
    beautiful friends in the H_R file.
    
    Some new developments: My Ex wants to send my daughter up here for
    only a few months. (I don't know what she expects me to accomplish
    in a few months???)  I will be talking to my EX about this, to see
    if it might be smart to have my daughter stay with me for a bit,
    and if she gets along, then extend it to permanent. We do have to
    think about whats best for my daughter!!!
    
    My daughter has been asked about the possibilities of abuse, but
    other then them not getting along sometimes she says he hasn't bothered
    her.(She told this to the female doctor)
    
    My girlfriend does not live with me now, so I will have a few months
    for them to get to know each other, if she ends up staying longer.
    
    I hope I didn't sound as though I didn't care what happens to my
    daughter, but I look at the relationship between a parent and child
    as different then that of a man and woman.  I help my daughter because
    I love her, and she's a part of me. And it's an automatic thing.
    If a problem developed between my daughter and my girlfriend, my
    girlfriend can choose to walk away from it, my daughter will always
    be my daughter.  Thats why I stated that a relationship was the
    important think, because you have to work at it.  If my friend gave
    me an ultimatum (her or my daughter), I would tell her goodby!!! 
    I wouldn't do that to my daughter. (I would surely let her know
    my displeasure though)
    
    Anyway, thank you all. I'll let you know how things turn out.
    
    Nils

    RE: .10
    
    FLAME all you like.  The basenoter was asking and I answered with my
    opinion.  I know better ..... I appologize for not prefixing my
    response with "In my opinion", but, I still think that your children
    come before anything else.  The commitment you made to have them 
    (IN MY OPINION) overrides all other priorities.
    
    These days priorities have shifted away from 'the children' and have
    become more self centered.  I think it's awful ...... that's all.
    
    So, "FLAME" away .10.    .... and have a nice day.
    
    (It amazes me how upset people can get while noting!  Chill out!)
                                                                     

    re: .13
    
    Our children are on loan to us.  We raise them to be independent
    functioning adults, and if we've done our job right, they leave
    us.
    
    A relationship, if you are blessed and if you work very hard,
    lasts a lifetime.  It often existed before the children came
    along, and it will continue to exist, barring disaster, for many
    years after the children and even the grandchildren have gone
    their own ways. 
    
    Our children are precious and wonderful.  They are beautiful and
    the future of the race is in their hands.  Raising them is vitally
    important.  But they are not and should not be everything.  
    
    --bonnie

    You're absolutely right!  (IN MY OPINION heheheheh)  I agree with
    all you've written and couldn't have said it better myself.
    
    Thanks -bonnie
    
    bs

    re: .13
    
    � I appologize for not prefixing my response with "In my opinion", 
    � but, I still think that your children come before anything else.  
    
    I understand it's your opinion, but the problem I would have
    is with someone else telling me what my priorities "should" be.
    It seems to me that I have no right to tell you that "your rela-
    tionship to your spouse should be your highest priority."  I think
    it's fair for me to say what my priorities are and/or should be,
    but I'll reject the "shoulds" of others, almost out of hand.  
    
    I'm willing (and often eager) to listen to another person sharing 
    her/his experiences and what has or hasn't worked for him/her.  If
    someone says "*My* relationship with *my* children is my highest
    priority and here's why. . ." I'll listen carefully.  But when the 
    words shift from "This is how I see it. . ." to "This is how you 
    should see it. . ." I start to walk away.
    
    Steve
    

    Walk away .... stay and read.  Be offended .... take it with
    a grain of salt.  FLAME ON .... don't flame at all!  Whatever
    you like.
    
    My most humble appologies for the grief I've seemed to cause
    some of you.  One of the reasons that I don't (usually) write
    into conferences is because of this type of FLAMING and mis-
    understanding.  NOTHING is written the way it would be SAID and
    there's always someone who takes it the wrong way ... cuts a few
    lines out and FLAMES about the WAY it was said.  And, I refuse to
    prefix my text with constant messages like, "This is just my
    opinion" or "Sorry if this offends anyone" .... 3 or 4 paragraphs
    of text just to explain what you said in just 3 or 4 lines previous.
    
    People who say you SHOULDN'T do drugs, for example, are no different
    than me placing a response in this conference saying that people
    SHOULD make their children their number 1 priority.  Should I then
    FLAME ON with something like, "How DARE you tell me I shouldn't
    do drugs.  How DARE you set MY priorities for ME!"  Gimme a break!
    Read it and give your opinion.  That's what this is all here for ...
    isn't it?  
    
    I was, and will be again (as soon as this response is closed) a
    Read Only Noter.  I should have learned 2 (or 3) years ago when I
    wrote my "Why do runners insist on running in the street?" note in
    the running conference.  Simple questions .... many unnecessary 
    FLAMES!

    re -1:
    
    You missed the point.  We understand that your statements
    are your opinions.  However, when your opinions are not
    "I" statements but rather "you" statements, they go beyond
    a simple statement of opinion.  
    
    It's obvious that, to you, the relationship with the daugther
    would be most important.  THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU SAID.  You told
    someone else that their relationship to their daughter should
    be most important.  Implied in your statement is "My
    priorities and my opinion are correct, and since yours are
    different, yours are wrong."
    
    No.
    					andrew

I agree with the past few replies. Of course we can only give our own
opinion and it goes without saying. Sticking to the 'I' statements is good.

I think we add to this conference to support other folk. Bullying
shouting, being haughty and talking of 'my' rights isn't going
to help the base noter; to whom I appologise for this note.

If I am in distress the last thing I need is 'should/must' statements,
better are 'how about/maybe' and best are real empathy and caring/sharing.

Listen/ignore, perhaps I am just a Barmy old Englishman!

Love ... Trevor

    TO THE ORIGINAL NOTER:
    
    "In my opinion", you have set your priorities in order.  Your
    daughter seems very important to you.  Maybe now this will
    give you a chance to get closer.  If she feels comfortable,
    she might open up to you about things that may be bothering
    her.   Her pains may be as simple as stress/nerves/and tightened
    muscles.  You will be a good listener.
    
    And don't worry.  If your lady friend is deserving of your
    love, she will understand whatever happens.

    In my own experiance I have tried to balance the two relationships.
    I have made mistakes. I do believe that in areas the children's needs
    come first...i.e. saftey, security, stabillity. If these areas were
    met(yes I have done this evaluation more that once) I considered my own
    feelings first and I believed that children are flexible...they really
    are you know.
    
    Did I mention that I have made mistakes?  Well when I thought all
    the childrens needs would be met and he would make a great father
    (his work was in child care) I made the mistake of finding a man who
    loved my child and children in general I forgot to find one who loved
    *ME* for who I was. After leaving the relationship with two children in
    tow (had one during the relationship) I found out the my oldest child
    had been emotionally abused and as a result some odd thing will trigger
    terror and sometimes she can remember why she feels so scared and
    usually it has something to do with threats or overdone disipline.
    
    I have since modified my list and my current husband does dish out 
    results for misbehavior and we agreed that corprol punishment is 
    nesseccary for some situations and that he should avoid spanking 
    the children for at least three years.  For the oldest we have found
    that tasks performed around the house are a better form of training.
    They can spend some of thier time doing somthing constructive instead
    of sitting in thier room listening to their tapes or radio. This way
    they have a chance of redeeming themselves in thier own eyes as well.
    If my children sit anywhere it's in the hall where they cant see the 
    tv and I can see what they are up too. I dont want them enjoying
    themselves when they are suppose to be thinking about somthing.
    
    I will admit that no particular system is fool proof when you try to
    figure "WIll they be better off with a step-daddy(mommy) or without.
    Will I be better with a lover or without."
    I do know that children are flexable and we all can learn to live 
    with various new circumstances. Children need to learn eventually from
    somewhere that the world does not revolve around what they want or
    don't want and life is not fair and we make the best of our situation
    (sorta like a bloom where you are planted philosophy).
    As long as the children are safe and the love for the children is
    steady and the relationship is secure the children will learn to
    adjust.
    
    The hardest part is getting into a relationship for the right reasons.
    That was where I think I did make my mistake. Chosing somone for my
    child instead of somone to be my helpmate.
    
    janet
    
    

    I just attended a lunchtime EAP seminar by a woman from Stepfamily
    Associates out of Brookline. She had a very interesting discussion
    about how it takes usually 2 years for the new relationship (between
    the man and woman) to solidify and that THAT relationship should be
    viewed as the most important one before introducing the children into
    it. Then it can take up to 5 years for the children to accept the new
    parent. She also said that as children get older, they have a more
    difficult time accepting the new parent, mostly because as teens their
    lifes are messed up as it is. I wouldsuggest you contact these people
    for more info, they have individual counselling and groups and
    workshops. They've been around for 10 years and sound very good. The
    number is 617-738-5533 or 734-8831.
    
    Good luck
    Debbie
    

    I want to thank you all for your inputs. I am going to get my daughter
    into some counciling while she's with me, and am going to take it
    easy on getting my daughter introduced to how I run my house, and
    my girlfriend.
    
    Some recent developments so you can see what I'm up against: The
    Ex called last week, and said that My daughter wanted to bring her
    cat along. I told her that I didn't think that was a good idea,
    since I already have a cat, and what happens if they don't get along??
    I'm not going to get rid of my cat. I told her she should try to
    reason it out with my daughter. The next thing I know, my daughter
    is telling me that they already had the container for the cat to
    fly in. Well I had to be the bad guy and tell her NO, that she 
    couldn't bring it. She said she understood, but when my Ex got on
    the line, she said my daughter was in tears," AND THANKS FOR NOTHING",
    then she hung up on me.
    
    Well, my daughter called again last night, and she's all set to
    come up, and she's looking forward to it. No mention of the cat,
    so I guess it wasn't that big a deal to her.
                                                                         
    Thanks again,
    Nils

    Not to sound unsympathetic to your daughter, but at 15 they're
    frequently in tears, or in a fury, and it doesn't mean anything. 
    Things seem much worse when they happen, but they blow over faster
    too.  
    
    Which is one of the things that makes it so difficult to tell if a
    teenager is having real problems, or just being a teenager. 
    
    --bonnie

There are some related discussions going on in the DLOACT::BLENDED_FAMILIES
notes conferences too!