Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    RE: .0
    
    Hi, I'm not sure which State of the union you were divorced
    in so laws may vary
    
    I took the liberty to ask my attorney, he suggested that if you
    fell strongly about this, that you should gather your divorce
    papers and find yourself another attorney to talk to
    
    Again, in some states you'd be stuck with the original decision,
    in others you may be able have an attorney do something...but
    you have to check and this notesfile isn't the best place for
    legal advice
    
    christopher

    RE: .0

    I wouldn't waste my time... When I *finally* got my divorce, I had
    almost started completely over...  When he walked out of the house -
    he was told to take anything he wanted...  Well, he did... and he took
    all the things that I needed to have a house running... he took the car
    that was completely paid off, and he left all the bills... The bills
    were in both of our names, and when I started to get phone calls at
    work, that they weren't being paid, I started paying them (I didn't have
    a leg to stand on - I had to!)... I even had to pay off the American
    Express bill that he charged up after he left because it was in both
    of our names, and I was too tired to fight anymore.

    Well.. now, I've completely refurnished my living room and dining room,
    and the girls bedroom. My car is almost totally paid off (I had to
    refinance it), the student loans are still being paid - although he used 
    over 50% of them also for school - they were in both of our names through a
    bank.  This year I will refurnish the master bedroom, and the girls
    bedroom, and the house will be finished.  Took me four years to do it, but I
    am a better person for it.

    At first I felt like you - why should he have gotten all that we worked
    so hard for...  but...  later I realized that I was a lot better for
    it.

    If you just totally walk away, you'll be able to heal better...  and
    totally walk away means to leave the bitterness at the old house -
    that's been the one thing that's been the hardest for me to do, but when
    I do, I feel much better for it.

    That being said...  if your divorce is not final (including the waiting
    period, and you feel VERY strongly - have your lawyer make up a {I
    don't know the legal term for it} request that you want X,Y,Z in the
    house and have it delivered to the judge and your ex-husbands lawyer,
    and request a hearing before the judge (if you are in Mass)...

    I had to learn that material things are just material things...  what
    really counts is the love you have for yourself and others... if you
    have that - you don't need the grandfather clock that you miss more
    than anything...

    You didn;t say how long you were married, so it's difficult to assess
    how much you are really going for. I would tend to chalk this up to
    experience, and learn from this mistake unless your share of the house
    was measured in the tens of thousands (at least). The law of dimishing
    returns is at work here. You'll have to work so hard to get back so
    little, it probably wouldn't be worth it. You will also suffer
    emotionally- bringing up many hard feelings. 
    
    I would tend to think that the best course would be to stop looking
    back at this point. Look ahead, move forward, get on with your life.
    
    The Doctah

    Short and not so sweet...
    
    I was just divorced in New Hampshire last week.  My attny told me that
    if " it ain't in the Finanal Stipulation, yer outa luck ".. unless
    fraud.   
    
    In NH the filings go to the court.  The "stipulations" say what each
    party has agreed to.  When the gavel goes down, its over.  In NH, when 
    I saw the judge, I was under oath that yes,  I did this under my own
    free will,  yes this is what the parties agreed to &  yes I do indeed
    want the divorce.
    
    Being "uncontested" makes the final legalites real easy.  If it were
    NH, about the only way to reopen is to show fraud in the Financial
    Affidavit submitted to the court.  But you must remember, the reason
    why the court does it this was is to make things FINAL.  You supposedly
    did both bargain in good faith and mutually come to an agreement. 
    Without this finality, the other party could haunt you for life.  You
    could never pass or hold valid title to any property because the ex
    always has a potential "hook" in the goods.  This may be ok for
    expendible goods, but think of it for real estate, family trusts...
    etc and other things that have longevity and value.
    
    I know its not what you may want to hear, but what did your attorney tell
    you during this process?  Certianly, he / she must have given you some
    advice and council on this subject.  Give him a call.  In your state,
    there may be some other out if your claim is legit.
    
    I agree that the best solution is to carry on, carry forward, Cary
    Grant.  I suspect Mass is similar to NH except there is a longer
    waiting period after the final court appearance.  
    
    "your milage may differ..."  See your attny.
    
    /t

    I was married four years.  I didn't have my own attorney because I
    couldn't afford one.  I left the house with $80 in a checking account
    and my weekly pay check.  We worked through his attorney and as I said
    guilt over took better my better judgement.  I remember the Judge
    taking off his glasses and looking at me directly with concern as he
    asked me all the standard questions.  I wish now I would have yelled
    out... "No, I don't know what in the hell I am doing!"  But I didn't.
     
    I agree I can't dwell on the past.  I guess my reason  for going back
    now would be to put it to rest.  I had to start from scratch.  New
    towel, sheets, furniture, silverware.  Even winter clothes I had packed
    away in boxes in the basement.  Personal Birthday gifts that I had
    gotten are still in the house.  I had asked for certain things, but I
    think my EX felt he was somehow getting back at my by hoarding those
    things.  Needless to say nothing would make me happier than to let it
    all go, but it is very difficult, because I poured a lot of money and
    energy into what we had.  I realize I left it, but I just don't thing I
    was in a rational frame of mind. I was married and Divorced in Mass. 
    The waiting period was over in October.  
    

    
    I have been divorced for three years now and I also had an uncontested
    divorce listing what was mine and what was his, but if I remember
    right if there are "GIFTS" involved those are yours without question.
    Legally he cannot keep them!!  I don't know though, because I live
    in California maybe it is different, but my gifts were not even
    a consideration when we were figuring who got what!!!
    
    If you are still on speaking terms than maybe you can come to an
    agreement between the two of you??
    
    Good Luck!!

Re: .6

As I was told by someone who is in the process of a divorce in Mass., gifts
are considered joint marital property by that state.  In New Hampshire,
gifts are considered "separate property", as are assets brought into the
marriage and family heirlooms.

				Steve

    RE: Gifts & my note # .4
    
    In NH, the stipulation covers the complete agreement.  I received gifts
    too.  However unless it got into the "Stip" on your side of the ledger,
    you loose - and vice versa. 
    
    I reality, the best agreements are those that take a COMPLETE inventory
    of ALL property items.  There were gifts given to me too.  However, to
    fight about some of them would eat up more in attny fees than the gift
    was worth to replace. ( and we all know how expensive attnys are! )  As
    a result, I forked over some gifts.  As much as I might wish, there is no 
    way now to recover them since I "freely" negotiated them away.
    
    The same goes for personal property that I personally paid for
    with my own money.
    
    The tough part is when you do not do a complete inventory and thus have
    a complete agreement.   Best advice here is do not do a " War of the
    Roses "; where you merely stake out this room for you and this room for
    me.  Get down to the nitty gritty!  Things get ugly.  Sorry folkes,
    there are new rules in relationships when the "D" word gets spoken.  The 
    other partner is apt to move certain posessions from one room to the other. 
    Then its impossible to get a judge to agree with you that that special
    item was really yours.
    
    I agree that gifts SHOULD belong to you.  But remember, some states
    have common property laws. ( I thought Calif was one of them )  Those
    cases, the items belong to both of you.  The partner has just as much a
    claim as you.  Better get it straightened out before the gavel falls!	
    
    There is a difference between what is ethical and what is legal.  Its
    ethical to have non inventoried, non specified gifts in your posession. 
    THe law looks at what is in the stipulation and what was agreed to
    without much regard to ethics; as evidenced by the judges look over his
    eye glasses to the note originator.  He may have thought personally
    that it was a bum deal but he has to interpret the law and stay neutral
    to the other party too. 
    
    If you think you got a poor deal by not specifying any personal
    property in the stipulation, SEE A LAYWER.  You might have an out;
    albeit very slim chance.  Look at hiring him for a 1/2 hour and know
    what the law is in Mass.  View this as an investment in your 1)
    education  2) mental well being for now and future years. 
    
	/t
    
    BTW - did you hear this lawer joke?
    
    	What the difference between a dead skunk in road and a dead lawyer?
    	The skunk has skid marks in front of it :-))
    

    while we're on this topic....does anybody know what the rule is
    in Massachusetts about property brought into a marriage?  For example,
    if you have an asset (eg, land, separate bank account, etc) when
    you get married, and that asset is never mixed into the common
    assets, then if you get divorced, is it considered separate property,
    or as part of the common property to be split up?

re: 927.5 
       
       >I didn't have my own attorney because I couldn't afford one.  
       
       I'm not sure how this might apply to this  situation.  When I got
       my  last  divorce  "we"  had  planned  to  use  just one  lawyer.
       However, the lawyer we chose told me that it would be  a conflict
       of  interest for him to represent both of us "for everything" and
       suggested that get a second opinion on what we were doing.
       
       Having done that, the  other lawyer pointed out several things to
       me which I had not  considered.  One of the things, of course, is
       that the pre-Nuptial agreement we entered  into  amounted  to  no
       more than a 'gentlepersons' agreement.  (his  fee  was  something
       like $50.00 more/less).
       
       It is my opinion  that you may have a "real" case, but you'd need
       to go through a very  good  lawyer.  
       
       The hingepin, of course, is that you were too naive to understand
       that "his" lawyer was in no position to fairly  represent both of
       you.  Hey, cases have been turned over for less  than  this,  and
       since your original "intent" was to return itmay be enough to get
       what is justly your own.