Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I am not in a relationship right now.
    
    But I agree with you 100%.  I still want to get married some day
    and share my dreams and life with someone special.  I know that
    it is possible.  You just have to try a little harder.  Give a little
    more.  Love is beautiful with the right person and it can grow and
    grow with jsut a little nuturing.  If you *both* work and grow with
    the realtionship it can and will last forever.  I know I have seen
    it happen.  My parents after 34 years, still love and grow with
    eachother.  Sure they had their problems, don't we all?  But they
    love and respect eachother.  They stick by eachother through thick
    and thin.  
    
    I know that there is someone out there for me!
    
    I am glad that you found your someone special.
             

    Marriage is like a garden....
    
    	It takes a lot of love and some work each day !  The fruits of
    	the love and work is what makes it all worthwhile !
    

>    Something in the Human Relations file is very disturbing to me. 
>    
>    It seems that all the words of love, marriage, family raising, etc.
>    are all negative. Why is that? ......
>
>    ..... The statictics scared me.  This file scared me.  All you
>    ever hear about is the negative aspects of marriage.

It's human nature. If someone wrote a note, saying "I am blissfully
married and very happy", there is very little one can say to
respond, except, maybe, "Good for you". 

But, when someone is miserable, and pours his/her heart out in a
long note of despair, there are a zillion replies offering support,
criticism, support of the criticism and criticism of the support.
By the time you are through reading, you are left with the
depressing feeling there is nothing but marital despair in this
world. 

So, while it's true --50% of marriage do end up in divorce-- the
view one gets is unbalanced, because the other 50% are so quiet.

-- Ron 

    I have to agree that the thought of getting married was very scary
    at first. With all the negative thoughts and reports. 
    
    I am just glad that I went on my feelings and not on what other
    people have gond through.  I am very lucky to have a wonderful wife
    who cars so much.  We just had our first child (boy) and we have
    only been married three years.  We were a surprised (me more then
    my wife) when we found out, but he has brought us so much closer
    to each other I just can't find the words.  I know that people have
    said kids don't always make a marrige better, but for us its great.
    Yes there are times that our son can realy try out each others patients
    and all, but the over all thing is that its great.  
    
    I guess the reason that it has worked out is that we wanted kids,
    and we love him so much, and I have grown much closer to my wife
    that it is great. 
    
    I am glad to here that there are other people who are happy being
    married, and I wish everyone the best.  It takes work but I have
    found that its all worth it. 
    
    DP

    I was married for 15 years.   Someone asked me why it was not a
    success?  I was shocked because for me  it had been a success for
    about 14 years.  Because it came to a natural end it does not
    invalidate all the good things that we shared and did together.
    How could I think that so many years were a miserable failure?
    Of course I couldn't!  We had lots of good things together, but
    it just didn't last for ever.  If I had died after 14 years or he
    had died,  people would have said ours was a happy marriage wouldn't
    they?  Well it was, so there!   
    
    diana

    
    	Joe Negative replies...
    
    	As there is a "higher power" which surrounds any group of people
    gathered together in common cause, belief, intent or purpose,
    so too is there this higher power around a relationship of just
    two people who are together in this same sense. This higher power
    makes even better that which is already great. This is one positive
    thing I can think of about having a relationship, or getting married.
    
    	My previous note simply drew attention to the fact that many
    relationships and marriages are often formed due to much different
    reasons, many of which are on a much lower level of consciousness
    than where things like "belief" or "common cause" reside. As was
    pointed out in the replies these reasons may be very strong. Does
    this also make them "right" and "best"?
                                                                        

    RE.1	
    	If you look at a dir of notes, you will probably read many negative
    base notes. But I think that disappears when one reads the replies. There
    are many very positive notes here.
    
    	I do not feel the reason for such negativity is based solely
    on bad past relationships, and failed marriages either. It has more
    to do with being able to look ahead...............
    
    	I was married for five + years..... It hurt when she left, but
    things change. People do too. I look at the past marriage as a
    cornerstone. It was a changing of my life. And all that I feel is
    good. Now I can look back and see where I failed, what I can do
    better. I have learned to be more compassionate, more communicative,
    and much more understanding.... And I owe it to a failed marriage.
    That seems funny when I sit here and reread it, but it is true.
    
    	I am now married to someone who is unbelieveable. Never have
    I had so much support, caring, and respect. I only wish everyone
    could be as lucky as I have been..... I would not trade it for
    anything.......I never dreamed life could be so perfect... Everyday
    is a learning experience.... Everyday is growth... And the future
    holds so much promise..........................
    

    It is real nice to see a note like this.  I don't write that much
    in this file, but after reading this note and it's replies I have
    to reply.
    
    My fiance and I just moved in together this past weekend.  Sure,
    I was nervous, anxious and had all kinds of feelings about this
    move.  But it feels great!  I am so happy that we have found each
    other.  He's so understanding, supportive, loving, caring, etc.
    
    We both have had relationships in the past that were terrible. 
    We learned from these relationships how to do things differently
    (work at things, better communication, compromising, etc.)
    
    Like .0 said it's great to come home after a bad day and just be
    able to talk to him about the day and have him support me, listen
    to me and just be there for me.  
    
    He is so considerate, helpful, and understanding.  We have been
    doing alot of work on the apartment since we moved in and we have
    both been very busy and tired.  I came home after work Monday and
    he surprised me with flowers and he had gone out of his way to pick
    up a few kitchen items that we needed (and they match the kitchen
    great :))
    
    We know that problems will come up, we know we will have arguements,
    and differences of opinion, and we'll have to make compromises.
    
    We know this is right, and we are very happy about our decision!
    
    {Just thought I'd share some happiness}
    
    Carol.

    The need for a positive note is that "shared joy is multiplied"
    and the reason for so many negative one's is that "shared pain
    is halved". It helps to get help and it's wonderful to share
    the joy. 
    
    BTW. SF fans should recognize the quote. It's Spider Robinson.
    
                                            Phil

RE: .9

>    "shared pain is halved" .... BTW. SF fans should recognize the
>     quote. It's Spider Robinson.

Actually, it's a bit older than that. An expression dating back to
Biblical times (nor actually from the Bible) says that 'the trouble
of many is half the consolation'. 

Yes, it does suffer in the translation, but you get the idea :-). 

-- Ron 

    When love works, it's the best thing going.....
    
    I agree...relationships can be the COOLEST!
    
    -Jody

    Yep when it's going good then there is nothing better....
    
    when you are out of love....Love Stinks!!!
    
    It's the same reason why I hate Corvettes....I don't have one so
    I don't like 'em (If I had one I'd love Corvettes ;-) )
    
    Bill
    

    I married my high school sweetheart and best friend.  We've helped
    each other grow in a lot of ways.  We've had our differences ( a
    couple times I wondered if it was the end) but thee good times have
    out weighed the bad.
    
    dv
    
    

    re:  .9	SF fans???  SAN FRANCISCO?!!!!!!!!  Is THAT what you
    mean?!!!!!!!!!  THAT'S WHERE I'M FROM!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    But now I'm living in New Hampshire, and loving it (finally!).
    
    By the way, thanks for the POSITIVE replies this note has received.
    
    

    I am happily married.  I've known my husband since I was 7 years
    old.  I'm now 30 yrs. old and have been married for 8 years.  I 
    think what makes our marriage work is the deep respect and trust 
    we have for each other.  He is my best friend and I his.  8 years
    ago we decided to move in with each other.  On that day we considered
    ourselves married in every sense of the word.  There was the commitment
    that we intended to stay with each other forever through good times
    and bad.  The only thing missing was the so-called 'legal' contract.
    The only reason we made it 'legal' was for financial reasons.  If
    it weren't for that reason, we would still continue without the
    contract.  I firmly believe that had we not chosen to make it legal
    we would still be together anyway.  Some relatives/friends didn't
    agree with the fact we went to a Justice of the Peace and didn't
    invite anyone.  But eventually they began to understand.
    
    I firmly believe this relationship will last forever.  We both feel
    we were meant to be with each other...we've known it since childhood.
    Of course we have disagreements, but we always try to communicate
    and work things out.  Its too easy to take things for granted and 
    we know that.  I feel blessed that he is in my life and thank God 
    for him.
    
    Donna   
    
    
    
    

    I am so pleased that the base note was not filled with idealic "fluff".
    I think many people from broken marriages cringe when they read
    about idealism from soon to be married people ie: the he/she's perfect
    syndrome & everything is going to be wonderful, insert picket fence
    here.
    
    I agree with the base noter's reasons for marrying. The reasons that 
    1/2 marriages actually do work are based on giving.
    
    There should be some way for us to understand/learn these lessons
    other that learning them the hard way (from mistakes).
    
    Gail
    

RE: .12
    
>    It's the same reason why I hate Corvettes....I don't have one so
>    I don't like 'em (If I had one I'd love Corvettes ;-) )

    yeah I wish I had some of that too.....:-)
    
    The Rebel

    Re .14 Not to get off the subject, but I couldn't mean San Franscisco.
    I've never been there. I hear it's a beautiful city as far as cities
    can be beautiful. I too, live in New Hampshire and my family has
    since before the revolution. Hudson to be exact. However to get
    back to the base note. I was married for over 10 years. good times
    and bad times. More bad then good but I try to remember the good
    times. 2 beautiful children that made all the hard times worth it.
    When she left I was bitter and became downright mean. I think I
    have recovered enough to look back with fondness at those times
    and to look forward positively to any new relationships and I will
    not give up trying to make one happen. No one should give up totally.
    Take a break or a breather from them for a while. Mine has lasted
    over 5 years and I'm kinda ready for the world again. I just hope
    that it's ready for me. Just don't ever give up totally. 
    
    
                                   Phil

    
    
    
    
    Boy do I feel stupid.................
    
    
    single female......
    
    
    I get it..............
    
    
    (that's what being out of circulation so long does to me!)  ;^)
    

    re: SF
    
    Also:	Serrated Foliage
    		Syntactical Foolishness
    		Synaptic Fuzziness
    		Swift Fandango
    		Science Fiction
    
    . . .nah, scratch that last one. . .
    
    Steve (TGIF)

    This note is very refreshing.  Reading all those negative notes and
    replies was starting to scare me away from marriage forever.  I
    haven't been married yet but my boyfriend and I have been talking 
    about.  Its really hard to stay optimistic when all I ever read is 
    how miserable being married is.  I think I'll take my chance though.
    It's really nice to know that there are good marriages out there.
    
    I'm really glad the basenoter stated this one.  I've been thinking
    about starting one myself, don't know why I didn't.
    
    Keep the positive going.
    
    Sandie
      
    

    RE.22
    	If you listen to everything people say, you will end up locking
    yourself in a closet somewhere for the rest of your life. I think
    people would do better to listen to themselves more, and less to
    the advice of others....
    	How can I say that when I am indeed sitting here and throwing
    in unwanted advice? I really don't know but I am going to anyway.
      
    	Marriage is what you make it. If you choose to let others run
    your life they will. On the other hand, if you choose to take hold
    of what could potentially be one of the most important parts of
    your life and mold it, you may be one very happy human being.
        Don't worry about the future.. Instead make it.......and
    enjoy it for every happy moment you can squeeze out of it...

    	29 years in a week, and like all relationships, some challenges
    to overcome. The challenges are like mortar, holding things together,
    except in cases where committment is lacking.
    
    	Many peers have been married and remained that way, despite
    the negative talk of marriage being outmoded.
    
    	No, it's not a bed of roses free of thorns - but then neither
    is life itself.
    
    	Many times we have each been tempted to walk away from it all,
    and to deny such situations would be dishonest - BUT - walking away
    from family will not free our minds and hearts of the committment.
    
    	My own marriage has been challenged because of my own emotional
    dysfunction, and while there is much missing, we both agree that
    there is much good as well, and must share the recovery.
    
    	No - it is not easy, there are many pressures, many times when
    individual desires must be put on hold for the relationship, but
    then there are the rewards as well - witness the elderly person
    who has no spouse or children to turn to in the winter of life -
    very lonely indeed.
    
    	Guy B.
    
    

    Oh, yes, there ARE happy marriages!  My own inspiration and hope
    comes from the 68 years my paternal grandparents shared wedded bliss.
    By today's statistics theirs should have been a failure -- married
    young; family income was from trying to farm the dry lands of 
    southeastern Colorado during the Depression and Dust Bowl days; five 
    strong-minded children who did (and do) battle among themselves, 
    including one who broke their hearts by choosing a life-style they 
    completely rejected.  All of the normal and some not-so-normal 
    struggles, including health problems, failed businesses, and 
    disagreements.
    
    But through it all they were, first and foremost, each other's best
    friend.  They leaned on each other in the hard times and applauded
    each other in their triumphs.  In a family and a community where
    affection was rarely expressed, they held hands publicly until the
    day Grandma died.  My own parents rarely kissed each other in my
    presence, but upon several occasions I came upon my grandparents
    smooching -- and looking sheepish at being discovered.
    
    They loved each other, and through their love they inspired their
    families to strive for the same type of relationship in their own
    lives.
    
    One of the last, and certainly the most poignant, memories I have
    of my grandfather happened upon my arrival from New England for 
    Grandma's funeral.  Grandpa reached out for my hand and with tears 
    in his eyes said, "Karen, I've lost my best friend."
    
    Karen  

    I just got married in October, and the first six months have been
    the best months of my life.  If you are freinds with you husband
    (or wife), you will always understand each other and get along well.
    
    I am glad to see this note, because I agree, there are too many
    negative notes about marrage..this is a breath of fresh air to 
    H_R :-)
    
    Lynne S.

    
    Nice topic, If I may I'll offer a few random thought on
    my marriage....
    
    My marriage to my wife Lynn is the most important part of my
    life, period. Sure I'm happy as hell to have a 2 year old boy, and
    another baby coming, but Lynn will always come first in my life.
    Right now we're at 13 years and going strong. 
    
    I'm not sure exactly why we've been so happy together, with very
    very few low moments. I suspect part of it is because we don't put
    any reins on each other nor have we attached expectations to each
    other. As others have said, we too are best friends. Strange thing is
    that neither one of us is exactly sure why the other loves us
    in the first place. By the same token, we've both learned that neither
    one will allow the other to take advantage; we jokingly say that
    our marriage is based on the MAD theory-Mutually applied Destruction.
    
    							Hank
    

	Right, marriage is a ball

	and chain :-).

                      LIFE IN THE RIGHT LANE!!!!!
    It's so nice to see,there is a lot of good mariages.
    It will be 19 years for me  in june.We did have our disa 
    greements,like any good mariage.I think the worst fight
    are the one about silly things.But the maine thing is to
    not take each other for granted,sometimes I leave a note
    in his lunch box.That can be anything{love note sexy appology
    thankyou.My next note will be a meet me to________ motel.that
    should add pizzaz to a weekend.I like to make candle light sup
    per.He tells me how lucky he is to have me.And everyday tells me
    "I love you"believe me that feels sooooooooo good.sometimes
    he brings me a rose for no special reason.we still love each others
    we still have different opinions,but it's spice in a mariage and
    give ways to good conversations.I know I am lucky to have him for
    for my husband. We are not perfect "thank GOD " but we are perfect
    for each other.I know some mariage are not easy and,have to end
    I sure hope mine last forever.we have a son 18 years old.HE wants
    a mariage like us,we kiss,hold hands,even if our son is there.He
    thinks it is kool.[mariage] is a give and receive for both spouses.
            love is in the air. What a wonderful """SONG"""
    

    
    love is great!...everyone should fall in love as often as possible!

    marriage ( committment?) is fine....every one should spend some
    time in a few committed relationships!....good growth!....
    
    raising a family is great for some people but just isn't for
    everyone...(i know!!!...instead of 2 daughters i should have had
    a cat and a dog)
    
    the proplem is:  for hundreds of years NOT being married was NEGATIVE!
    not being in love was NEGATIVE!  not having a family was NEGATIVE!...
    
    people are now beginning to realize that one can be NOT married...
    and happy at the same time!...people can be NOT in love and happy
    at the same time!...people can live their whole lives without
    ever bearing or raising a child and still be very happy and
    fulfilled!....
    
    so the single people who want to remain single are getting their
    licks in to the married people who keep telling them how unhappy
    and unfulfilled single life MUST be.....
    
    i would like people to accept all states as being positive...
    	it's fine to be married
    	it's fine to get divorced
    	it's fine to be single
    	it's fine to have more than one marriage
    	it's fine to not have kids
    	it's fine to have kids...
    i would also like people to REALLY think about ALL the possible
    positive options as opposed to JUST getting married because that
    is JUST what we are suppose to do because we are taught to do it...
    
    that applies to having kids, too.....
    
    i've been married, divorced, have 2 horrible teenage daughters that
    i raised (mostly) by myself, have had one abortion and lost 2 kids
    to sudden infant death syndrome, lived with 2 women (at different
    times), spent many years with NO significant, loving relationship
    and have enjoyed most of all of that....

    and as i grow (one way or the other) i find i worry less and less
    about marriage and committment and have better and better
    relationships!.....of course, the women i have relationships with
    now tend to agree with that philosophy.....
    
    by the way...i have never been "hurt" by a lover"....dumped...
    cheated on, treated like dirt or gone through a painful divorce
    or seperation....
    	every relationship ended equitably and reasonably and many of
    those relationships remain my friends....right, lorna? :-)

    

    
    ok...i just read replies .1 through .9...
    and i'm truly glad you guys are so happy with your "successful"
    marriages....
    
    BUT...you all SEEM to be suggesting that NOT being married is a
    failure....
    you all SEEM to be saying that if a marriage ends it is a failure....
    you all SEEM to be saying that the only truly happiness one can
    achieve in life is to be happilly married to one person until
    death do you part....
    
    THAT is why single people get on your case!
marriage to one person is no better than 20 different marriages...
    a marriage that ends is not neccesarily a failure....just 2 people
    who grew in different directions and moved on...which is ok!....
    
    no offense....but i read those first 9 replies and felt like
    i was stuck in fairy tale theatre....
    the dark ages still prevail....
    
    re: shared joy/shared pain....
    oh...great....i can only have joy if i'm in a loving relationship
    and if i'm not in a loving relationsip than i must be in pain....?
    
    so single people are not allowed to be negative about marriage
    but married people can be negative about being single?
    
    dam!....i've been in pain all this time and didn't even realize
    it!....
    
    well, i better start feeling sorry for myself.....
    

    re.31,32
    
    Why, oh why, do _want_ it to be 'Us v. Them?'
    
    OK, so I've been married for 15 years that I would rather have been
    single.  Once done, though, it seemed silly to _un_do.  Especially
    as we seem to be doing rather well.
    
    Yes, I'm happy in my marriage.  Sure I got married for all the wrong
    reasons [#1 on my list was using it as a reason _not_ to be forced
    to move to the Phillipines...].
    
    There was the time when he finished school that he thought maybe
    we should split up.  Realising there was some situational stress
    involved, we put the idea on hold for six months.  We're still here.
    
    The day I found our daughter dead was a low point for me; from your
    notes I think you can relate...
    
    And then there was the time I fancied myself smitten with someone
    else...
    
    Never having had marriage as a goal, I certainly do not think not
    marrying is a failure.
    
    On balance, for Rick & myself anyway, the good stuff we have together
    still outways the times when that 'other person' around is a pain
    in the backside.
    
       Ann

Re 32.                 
    
    < But...you all seem to be suggesting that NOT being married is
    a failure.......
    	HUH????? I also read the replies and do not think we are suggesting
    anything of the sort. At least as far as my note goes, I never intended
    it to sound that way. 
    	Read the base note... If I remember correctly, the point was
    that there is so much negativity in these notes..... The question
    poised was one to see if there were indeed content (Happy)
    relationships. I replied because I am very happy. My reply was not
    posted (And I think others also follow the same premise) to denounce
    not being married. I personally know of many unmarried persons,
    and I know they are content.....
    	< you all SEEM to be suggesting that Not being married is a
          failure.....
        < you all SEEm to be...................
    Nah!! I think you misread... I think also you should listen (well,
    read :)!! ) a little more carefully than you do, and realise that
    people are not always putting others down by talking about their
    happiness...,.. 
    
    < i was stuck in a fairy tale theatre.
    
    	Till you experience what I am going thru right now I guess you
    will not ever understand how much of a fairy tale can be possible.
    I have never been as content, happy, or lucky as I am today.
    
    As far as failure goes.......
    The only failure in life is not making the most of any situation.

    *************************************************************************
    
    Life can be grand.... Love can be even better. It matters not if
    it is marriage, freinds, or oneself.... What takes away from that
    "fairy tale world" is the negativity.......If there is positive
    attitudes, then there is growth.... With growth comes happiness....
    And happiness comes in many forms. 
                                       
    Reread the replies... Listen to what everyone is saying.... Get
    rid of the negativity and understand what they are saying.. I
    personally do not think anyone has been saying anything negative
    toward those that are not married.. They are just replying to the
    base note....................
    
    curt 

                            HOW WRONG!!!
    RE .32
            This has no reflection on single people.It is a note
            about positive realitionsips/mariage.And that is what
            people wrote about.I did not see anything negative on
            single people,if you are single and happy,that is just
            fine.
    
            You do not need to be in love with,someone to be happy
            all you need is,be in love with * LIFE * be yourself
            yes you can share joy/pain,with a friend even your pet.
            Maybe I am wrong but,I sense bitterness in your note.
       
            Each individual make their own happiness.It is not al
            ways easy but,it can be done (most of the time).So let's
            not have bitter feeling about "married or single" peolpe
            in any case there is good/bad  great/not so great.moments
            in life.Anyway I agree with WHITEWAY fary tale is there
            if you look for it.
                   * It is not the dark ages
                     but people are still the 
                     same.some are happy married
                     some are happy single.
    
                                         MISH.
            
                 
     
            

    re 35
    
    	Could'nt have said it better myself.......I did want to say
    this tho.......
    
    Those "fairy tale relationships" can be better than in the books...
    I know..... I am married to one of the most fascinating people I
    have ever met.....What I experience each day excels anything you
    can find in a book....................
    curt
    

    -< What a great notesfile!! >-
    
    I just finished reading the basenote and the replies.  What a breath
    of fresh air.  My husband and I will be married 1 year the 4th of
    July.  We truly are friends.  We run into people all the time who,
    when we tell them how happy we are, look at us like we're in fantasy
    land, and then tell us all the reasons why we're fooling ourselves.
    It's nice to know that we're not the only ones who are so happy
    in our relationship and so much in love that we want to tell the
    world.  Thanks for the great note!
    
    DH