Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Forgive me if I reply in generalities rather than regarding the
    specifics of cross-dressing in males - I have no specific experience
    there.  BTW, I'm female.
    
    Society places some pretty strict and arbitrary limitations on us
    - some of them even change.  The "male"/"female" behavior is one
    thing I really think we have a misunderstanding of.  It can't be
    as clearly defined as we have thought - it even changes as society
    changes.  For some reason people go off the wall when anything
    doesn't fit the current "norm" for masculinity/femininity.  Why
    does society have to be so harsh with those who don't fit some
    arbitrary definition?  There's some of each in all of us.  WE'RE
    ALL PEOPLE.  We just procreate differently.  In most
    cases when an issue is divided into "typically" male/female views,
    I find it easier to understand the male side.  In stereotypical
    situations, I often think more like a man.  But I have the strong 
    emotionality and feelings stereotypical of women.  I can be "one of the
    guys" easier than "one of the gals."  But isn't it more acceptable
    for a woman to be treated as "one of the guys" than for a man to
    be treated as "one of the girls?"
    
    Don't we have a bit of a double-standard as far as acceptability?
    You have to hide the fact that you wear stockings, high-heels, and
    dresses.  Do I have to hide the fact that I wear flannel shirts,
    wool socks, and hiking boots?  I can wear my boyfriends shirts,
    but can he wear my blouses?  Women have the whole of the masculine/
    feminine world open to them nowdays.  Is this true for men?  Not
    quite.  I think it's still more acceptable for women to enjoy
    "masculine" things and feelings than for men to enjoy "femine" things 
    and feelings.  
                            
    What's too bad is the insecurity caused by feeling "there's something
    wrong with me" when someone has thoughts or feelings that don't
    fall within this arbitrary "norm" defined by some blindly-groping
    society.  Do you harm people?  Do you take away someone's rights
    or freedom?  Do you pigeon-hole people into pre-defined slots, and
    place constraints upon them?  No?  Then you're okay.  Accept yourself
    as you are.  Does it do anyone any benefit not to do so?  Then self-
    acceptance is a pretty good thing.  Not everyone will ever like
    anybody, so just like yourself.        
                                   
    Paula

         (.0)	Very moving...I have never really thought
         about this....my loss.
         
         (.1)	Paula that was  so well put...I agree in total.
         
         I too project and often dress in a "male" persona,
         and also fit more in with the guys than the gals...[who
         BTW disapprove of many of my views]...and can use
         that persona to my advantage...double standard indeed!
         
         A rhetorical question I have...[or if someone has
         a thought on the answer...give to...]...revolves
         around why does society....[read norm].... *need*
         to approve or disapprove of societal members' habits?
         
         I guess an obvious reason is to impose order upon
         chaos....so those hanging doggedly to the bulb of
         the bell curve can indeed be assured that the will
         of the majority...[irony=as defined by the powerful
         *few*]...prevails. And, of course, it is ever so much
	 more difficult to control a mass of differing psyches,
	 so much easier to administer one "pill" to the massed
	 norm....

	 I mean....think of the difficulty in selling cars
	 by sexual inuendo if we could not predict a "solid"
	 reaction from 98.573% of all watching males to a
	 tawny lock of hair dangling suggestively over a
	 well-rounded and scantily clad breast...the cost
	 would be prohibitive...we might have to resort to
	 performance statistics....[sigh]
         
         And there is always that *warm and gushy* feeling
         of being among the chosen....[read mob]...
         
         None of which addresses the pain of the base note.
         
         I am terribly sad that you can never tell anyone...not
         even your close friends or wife...I am not so foolish
         to ask why not...[obvious reasons]...but I am foolish
         enough to wish that you could.
         
         FWIW...[not much I am afraid...]...there is a great
         deal of courage associated with your acceptance of
         *yourself* as who you are...many of those *normettes*
	 never manage that kind of dignity.

         It is the loss of others close to you if they are not 
	 willing or able to also accept. It is of course your loss
	 that the price of giving them the chance to try is 	 
	 so prohibitive.
         
         Melinda

    Have you considered seeing a couselor--not becasue the world would
    have a problem with your cross-dressing, but to help you to feel
    more comfortable about yourself?  You sound so wounded and confused.
    Perhaps a good therapist could help you to sort out those feelings
    so you wouldn't feel a need to bury them.
    
    I must agree with earlier replies, in that you are you, and you
    are just as special being yourself as the rest of us are being
    ourselves.  I always ache so much for people who are forced to feel
    ashamed or put down because they are themselves.  It is injustice
    in it's worst form.  I cannot speak for others, but I can for myself;
    so let me say this from the heart:
    
    "I'm glad you're in my world just as you are!"
    
    In Support,
    
    Barb

    This is a reply from the author of the base note.
                                                                             
    *************************************************************************
    
    
>re:655.1
> I find it easier to understand the male side.  In stereotypical
> situations, I often think more like a man.  But I have the strong 
> emotionality and feelings stereotypical of women.  I can be "one of the
> guys" easier than "one of the gals."  But isn't it more acceptable
> for a woman to be treated as "one of the guys" than for a man to
> be treated as "one of the girls?"

But it is not as noticeable!  A woman dressed in "male" attire with
makeup, nail polish or an earring in both ears just would not be 
deemed unusual.  I wouldn't even try.  Your also right on the nose 
regarding stereotypes as well.  Interesting note, when I was much 
younger(jr high, high school) I tended to find more acceptance with
girls as one of the group than I did as a possible boyfriend even
though at the time I was very masculine in behavour.
   
> You have to hide the fact that you wear stockings, high-heels, and
> dresses.  Do I have to hide the fact that I wear flannel shirts,
> wool socks, and hiking boots?  I can wear my boyfriends shirts,
> but can he wear my blouses?  Women have the whole of the masculine/
> feminine world open to them nowdays.  Is this true for men?  Not
> quite.  I think it's still more acceptable for women to enjoy
> "masculine" things and feelings than for men to enjoy "femine" things 
> and feelings.  
  
Feminine is not heels and a skirt exclusively.  It could be a bulky 
sweater in  bright blue with a silver chain worn on the outside and 
shoulder length hair.  Fortunately styles are changing bright colors
and softer styles are now ok on a guy.  For me slacks and blouse 
are more correct.  Also we are talking about dress that is appropriate
for the activity, hiking boots and flannel shirts are correct for camping
or hiking for either sex.  The difference is the woman would have a pink
turtleneck under it and the guy a white teeshirt. We won't even discuss 
the underwear difference.
                          
> What's too bad is the insecurity caused by feeling "there's something
> wrong with me" when someone has thoughts or feelings that don't
> fall within this arbitrary "norm" defined by some blindly-groping
> society.  Do you harm people?  Do you take away someone's rights
> or freedom?  Do you pigeon-hole people into pre-defined slots, and
> place constraints upon them?  No?  Then you're okay.  Accept yourself
> as you are.  Does it do anyone any benefit not to do so?  Then self-
> acceptance is a pretty good thing.  Not everyone will ever like
> anybody, so just like yourself.        

This was what I referred to regarding accepting myself.  It took some time
(decades) to realize that.  You ask the question do I threaten others, no
not directly.  Remember I did say that being seen dressed feminine by a
traditional male makes him realize his masculinity is not as real as 
may be wished.  For many people that is not a place that is comfortable.
Not all women are comfortable with their womanhood being seemingly 
threatend as well.  For me womanhood is something special that I can only
share a piece of.

>re: 655.2
> (.0)	Very moving...I have never really thought
> about this....my loss.

Thanks Melinda.  Please don't feel that not thinking about it as a loss,
be happy that you don't have to.
         
> I too project and often dress in a "male" persona,
> and also fit more in with the guys than the gals...[who
> BTW disapprove of many of my views]...and can use
> that persona to my advantage...double standard indeed!
> to approve or disapprove of societal members' habits?
  
For me it's not an advantage, it is necessary at times.  Also the 
question of "why would you want to appear to be a woman, after all men
have all the advantages?" comes up. It's not about advantages at all.
Those that disapprove of your views are takeing much too much 
ownership of whats exclusively yours.  Their your views and you are
sharing something private with them, they don't have to agree but 
they cannot tell you your wrong.

       
> I am terribly sad that you can never tell anyone...not
> even your close friends or wife...I am not so foolish
> to ask why not...[obvious reasons]...but I am foolish
> enough to wish that you could.
 
My wife knows I am a crossdresser but beyond that is the great gulf
of understanding that I have to build bridges across.  There is much
understand great emotional barriers to overcome.  It's very difficult
to explain what I see and feel, why is more difficult.
        
> FWIW...[not much I am afraid...]...there is a great
> deal of courage associated with your acceptance of
> *yourself* as who you are...many of those *normettes*
> never manage that kind of dignity.

The catch is I am still trying to understand me, and accept what I 
find.  It is worth a lot, we have to accept ourselves to grow.  We all
desire(want) acceptance from others.  We all remember rejection even if
we've forgotten why.  It's dignity and comportment that helps send the
message I am what I appear to be, even when the appearance is ambigous
at best.

> It is the loss of others close to you if they are not 
> willing or able to also accept. It is of course your loss
> that the price of giving them the chance to try is 	 
> so prohibitive.
  
The cost is sometimes worth it.  I have met many great and warm people
as a result.  You learn to live with risk, the risk is if someone 
rejects who or what you are do you accommodate them or discard them.
Its not something to be taken lightly.  There are many notes and 
conferences that deal on this subject.

Another note is there are several groups "out there" to help the gender
confused community.  I am not aware of all of them.  These groups can 
help dispel the lonelyness and help as well.

I'd like to hear more, and from men as well.

    

    This is going to sound a little strange, but bear with me.
    
    A few months ago, a friend and I called up one of those 550
    party lines they have here in the Boston area.  They have them for
    all kinds of people, men, women, gay people, music lovers, etc.
    This one happened to be for transvestites, transsexuals and
    crossdressers.We saw the ad in a magazine, so we called and listened
    out of curiosity.  I must admit it was all a joke at first.  We
    just couldn't imagine what people would *say*.
    
    Were we surprised!  There were a few wierdos out there, but for
    the most part it seemed like a real "community."  Most of the people
    "knew" each other, either personally or knew them by voice.  There
    was a teenage boy on "the line" and they were all discussing his
    gender confusion with him, and getting a lot accomplished.  I think
    the kid thought he was the only gender-confused person in the world,
    and they seemed to be making him feel a lot better by telling their
    own stories, sharing ideas, and presenting his options.  There were
    people on the line who dressed up in women's clothes as a "turn-on,"
    men who dressed up every day at home but didn't have the nerve (or
    wouldn't pass as women) to go out on the street, there were men
    who dressed up and went shopping either alone, or with others they
    met from the line,  pre-ops, or men waiting to have the sex-change 
    operation, as well as people who had already had it done.  They
    talked about everything from the problems their dressing created,
    to the best places to shop "dressed."  There are actually stores
    nightclubs and private clubs out there for transvestites &
    crossdressers, something I had never heard of.
    
    All in all, it was rather educational, and mind-opening.  The whole
    things is very normal, and from what I hear thousands call weekly.
    If there is anyone out there who is interested in learning about
    this kind of thing, I'd recommend calling.  It opened my mind.
    
    The # is 550-8887 and it costs 10 cents a minute.
    
    Stacie
    heard of.

    This is from the author of the base note.
                                                                             
    *************************************************************************

--------------------------Writing as therapy----------------------------

>  Have you considered seeing a couselor--not because the world would
>  have a problem with your cross-dressing, but to help you to feel
>  more comfortable about yourself?  You sound so wounded and confused.
>  Perhaps a good therapist could help you to sort out those feelings
>  so you wouldn't feel a need to bury them.

 Thanks Barbara for your support.  Yes I am slowly facing up to the 
 need to seek help.  I have some names to follow up with as well. 
 
 Just writing the base note and replies have helped.  What I write 
 takes much effort as I'm not naturally a writer.  I read what I 
 have written and ask the questions why did I write it that way, 
 did I mean that?  The "wounded and confused" sense was never clear          
 to me until I reread my writing before submiting them.  Some of the 
 responses have triggered thoughts long forgotten, helping to explain
 what some of my feelings are or where they are from.  I wrote answers
 and examined them, I can't send them all as some are quite personal.
 I notice things when I write them, like when I quick dash off an 
 idea I write with a much different style then when I'm forcing myself
 to  write.  I guess in my own way I'm talking it out with myself.

 Hi Stacie,
 Thanks!  You also point out there are many others who are searching
 their souls for who they are. I did see 655.5.

 Still working,
    

    
    I'm surprised this topic hasn't "taken off" so to speak.  Have there
    been that many similar discussions that this issue is "worn out?"
    
    It's not HR style not to reply to a topic like this.
    
    Just curious.
    
    Stacie

    This is from the author of the base note.
    
    ***********************************************************************
    


    ------------------------On being a girl-------------------------- 

    The last several installments and answers were to say the least a bit
    of a downer.  I wanted others to see the gender issue as more than
    right clothes wrong body or a purely sexual issue.  I'm like others who
    crossdress I will survive and grow as a person. I infrequently regard
    it as an intrusion in my life but when I reflect on my experiences it's
    not at all bad. Hopefully the following will explain why.  I have a
    taken a feminine name rather than using "it", "she", or "that"; it's
    more personal.  I am learning much from her(the other me) and some of
    it is fun.  I do laugh at me sometimes because growing up again is
    funny.  Surviving the trauma of any problem does point out the need for
    the all important sense of humor. 
 
    For those who know me and others that might please remember I might be
    fully grown but as a girl I've just been launched into my teens clumsy
    and full of a new world to explore.  As a girl I'm still learning about
    me, how to dress, makeup(yet untried), and comportment (will I remember
    to keep my legs together).  Don't even mention all of the other things
    teenage girls might worry about weight, hair, nails, skin, body, and
    the dreaded mirror!  Look at the young ladies around you and remember
    all of the things they had(were forced?) to learn before they could
    venture into the great world around them. Guys do the same, after all
    remember the great pimple or your voice changing!  It has a way of
    making you feel young again.  I understand why some crossdressers must
    go out in public to test their "acceptance". It is the debutante ball
    as it were, or Queen/King for the day! 

    For me I know how horrid pantyhose are but I also understand if you
    want to wear a skirt and your legs are not tanned or its cold that's
    what you must wear. It's that or a garter belt and hose(yuck), I'd
    never buy them for my wife as sexy as they may look there not fun to
    wear.  I understand when my wife wants cloth instead of the wind around
    her ankles.  Not showing leg doesn't make her less feminine to me. Guys
    should shave their legs once also for the same reason and they would be
    surprised just what the inside of their pants actually feel like!
    You'll learn that the next time you see your wife/girlfriend looking
    good it was work!  Makeup, clothes and the many other things are not
    born into them they had to work at it. Appreciate the beauty, and let
    her know you do. All of this applies to the ladies and their guys.  The
    next time he gets dressed in his best suit/tie/whatever he also had to
    learn the rites of passage. 

    Then there is sexism, the them/us thing.  I see the world both ways
    (now I can admit why) but I've always been aware of the sexual
    typecasting that goes on in our world.  It's hard to believe that by
    putting on a skirt some part of the population will automatically think
    I'm incapable of doing whatever.  Remember earlier I did say "it's not
    about advantages" well I lied, I can feel the situation like a woman
    may and razz the guys for what they do and make it hit home for them!
    An example I remember some of the guys staring at a secretary whose
    breasts had just responded to a sudden cold breeze (nipples) I quickly
    pointed out theirs were also!  Well talk about red faces.  Even the
    affected secretary didn't realize that that erect nipples from the cold
    is not uniquely female.  I did say a sense of humor is the prime
    survival tool. 
 
    I have taken up much to much space and maybe rambled some so I'll tie
    this one up with the following idea. When you see or meet someone
    different consider what they believe and who they are before you judge
    their behavior.  After all they just may be doing the same to you.
    Isn't this what human relations are about? 

    Have you hugged someone today? 

    
                                   

    re: .7
    
    Terrible thing  .. replying to a reply. Anyway, Stacie, the topic is
    difficult, even for me, since there is little 'public' information
    available. Its one of those things: Those that know *most* about it
    probably don't want to take a chance on *revealimg* themselves, and the
    rest of us have no frame of reference, since "cross dressing" is a
    closeted activity, isn't it ? 
    
    For what its worth, its been in either (or both) Ann Landers and Dear
    Abby, and also "Dr. Ruth". The consensus I recall is that most men are
    terrified of it, and those with compassionate wives (SO's) get help
    from them is selecting proper attire. 
    
    There  is a belief (in one of "anonymouses replies") that its not as
    great a problem for women. I think that appears to be true, because you
    only see the more 'sure' women, with the rest being closeted just like
    yourself and others with the same behaviour. 
    
    Also, the Boston paper "The Phoenix" carries more "support groups" news
    items than any other newspaper that I've seen. It is possible that
    there may be a support group available. Also the Boston station "WBZ"
    has a call line called "Call for Action" and state that they'd research
    any sort of problem (call 10 am to 3 pm, I think).
    
    Bob
    
    
    
    

    Here's some suggested reading from the anonymous base noter.
    
    -------------------------some reading-----------------------------------

    For those interested in learning more.

    Conundrum	Jan Morris
    Mirror Image	Nancy Hunt
    Transvestites and transexuals	Deborah Feinbloom
    The uninvited dilemma: A quenstion of gender	Elizabeth Stuart
    

    re: Past Tense
    
    The phrase, past tense is appropo, but in the past month there has been
    several "related" issues discussed on Oprah Winfrey, Geraldo, and that
    other show. 
    
    The topics were specifiically related to Gender confusion: Gender
    change operations, and those who changed back; Right feelings, wrong
    body; Transvestites (sp?), and the people who live with them. 
    
    Perhaps, just perhaps, someone else with a VCR recorded and kept them
    for later viewing. My VCR tends to be very volitile, in that we record,
    view, then record on the same tapes. 

    It seems that "talk show" media is being deluged with topics once
    reserved for "back rooms" and "fearful minds" ever sinc the AIDS
    crisis appeared. The point is this: These topics, if on one show,
    will very soon appear on another.
 
    Bob