Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    re: .0
    
    I was probably the first one to read note 623 (I was working real
    late two nights ago).  I decided not to respond because I felt uneasy
    trying to "counsel" someone who was willing to leave his family
    because his wife "bugs him".  I'll admit that the note being a hoax
    did not cross my mind at all, and it was only a later reply that
    made me think, "why would someone admit publicly that he's cheating
    on his wife?".  Someone who thinks that it is that natural to find
    a girlfriend because of troubles with a spouse is certainly in no
    state of mind to rationalize a "solution" to his "problem".
    
    I did enjoy the one replier who made the comment about marriage
    being "for better and for worse...till death do us part".  I feel
    uneasy about all of the noters who were convinced that divorce is
    the ONLY solution.  Then again, a "real" person such as 623.0 would
    probably be hell to live with for the wife.  Probably for the wife's
    emotional and mental well being I'd suggest that they get counsel
    or separate.
    
    It saddens me that people treat marriage as a "trap" or something
    that they were "forced into" for life.  I wish that there were
    marriage courses that more couples WOULD take BEFORE they get married.
    Marriage is not something to be taken lightly, nor is it something
    that "well if it doesn't work this time, it will work the next".
    You shouldn't have to contact lawyers for pre-nuptual agreements
    because (well, we may get divorced), nor should you be "excited"
    that after three or four marriages, that THIS time it will last.
    
    I pity these people.  I wish that they would see marriage for what
    it is...a LIFE-LONG committment that should be taken SERIOUSLY and
    when problems arise you DEAL with them, not evade them.  It has
    it's ups and downs, but the easy road (finding other "love") is
    never the best.
    
          - Larry
                        

    Well, the thing that amazed me was how fast most of the people were
    to judge without offering any basis or reasoning. Amazing! The "case"
    itself is all to real to me, and I know it happens much more frequently
    than most folks realize. Don't remember who said it, but "truth is
    often stranger than fiction". And possibly some good can come out
    of what someone's idea of a joke was, if it makes people think
    about it.

                                        
    Regards,
    Bob (who fell hook line and sinker!)

RE: .2

	 I think the reason must be were so quick to judge "without
	 reason" as you put it is because to a lot of us the reason is
	 obvious....But then, the note was put specifically there to
	 intice us to "judge."


	 Is is kind of scary that so many people are ready to just
	 "give up" on a relationship with out spending the time to see
	 if it is what they really want.  I know numerous couples who
	 have gotten divorced, then decideda year or so that divorce
	 was not the answer and gotten back together.  I think
	 problems in a relationship should really be examined instead
	 of making hasty decisions based on emotions....
	 
    
>>I wish that there were marriage courses that more couples
>>WOULD take BEFORE they get married. 

	 Larry, there is a "sect" (I guess is the right word) of my
	 religion that *REQUIRES* couples to take 1 year of courses on
	 marriage...and counselling on what marriage is all about and
	 just what you are getting in to....  Of the couples that I
	 know that go through this....they are all in very happy, very
	 secure relationships and none of them are anywhere near
	 divorce.  I don't think that *forcing* couples to do this is
	 the answer, but I think if people spend the time before
	 getting married and realize that marriage is not just an
	 emotional relationship...there would be a lot lower divorce
	 rate.

	 hum....topic 623 was sure food for thought for a lot of us,
	 wasn't it?

	 kath
                        

    I, too, answered the note.  I assumed it was real because the matter
    seemed too serious for a hoax.  I don't consider it amusing because
    to me committment is a decision to be seriously thought over before
    jumping into one.  I have no doubt there are situations out there
    quite like the one in the note, so consider my response addressed
    to the "un-noted" situations.
    
    Barb

    re: .3
    
    Kathy,
       I agree that forcing a couple to take a marriage course is like
    forcing a couple to wait a year to get married.  Sometimes it's
    good, other times it isn't.  If my parents are any indication, they
    have been married 29 years after meeting/being engaged for only
    three months.  They also did not take a marriage course and they
    were both young, 20 and 26.  So, by no means am I implying that
    all engaged couples should take a marriage course.  I do think
    that they should spend a lot of time talking with each other, really
    getting to know the other person before walking down the aisle.
    For some people this takes three months, for others, three years,
    whatever.
    
       In my religion, Catholicism, many churches require a
    church-sponsored marriage course before they accept "candidates"
    for the sacrament of marriage.  In once instance that I know of
    (a close friend of mine), she wanted to get married in her Catholic
    church on Long Island, but the pastor would not allow them taking
    this "course" at their present home in Washington DC.  I was surprised
    to hear that the pastor took this stance, but it wound up that she's
    getting married at a beautiful little Presbyterian Church in the same
    town.  I'm very happy for her, and I hope the two of them have a
    long, wonderful marriage.
    
       - Larry

Well, I'm surprised it was a hoax.  It sure got me.  I tried to reply this 
morning but kept getting an error message.  When it comes to "judging" I can't
help it.  I don't judge most people but I do judge my ex-to-be and his 
girlfriend because what note 623 was talking about happened to me on August 
9th, 1988.  I was married for 11 years and bang - all gone in one day.  He 
left me and my son for our so-called family friend.  I was devistated.  I was 
totally loyal in our marriage and I truely believed with all of my heart "for 
better, for worse, till death do us part".  I don't believe in those words 
anymore.  Maybe someday I will again but I don't now.  I'm okay now and 
realize that I"m better off but to just leave me with all our 
bills/responsibilities etc..with my pay check and no furnace for the winter 
(got one now thanks to my dad) I think it was cruel and I really don't 
understand why anyone can do things like that to people.  Sure - he told me 
the day he left he was "unhappy" but why couldn't he tell me before?  He was a 
coward and he copped out into someone else's arms - that's why.  I don't often 
judge anyone because I don't like being judged but this time I can't help it.  
He also put me in a position where for the very first time in my life I had to 
experience the emotion of "hate".  Let me tell you that it's the worst emotion 
to ever feel.  I don't hate him much anymore - it's wearing off now - but to 
even have to experience that emotion is awful.  I"m looking forward to the day 
that I find someone who will love me for me and not crush my "free spirit" 
again.  I also think that note 623 does get people thinking and if any of you 
out there are married (I'm sure there are many) don't run away from your 
problems - face them and learn and grow...just my opinion...

Colleen-who's-doing-better

    Another point about the time=sucess in marriage idea. The length
    of time spent together before marriage is no guarentee of the duration
    of the marriage. My ex and I "dated" for 6 (count them 6) years before
    we got married. On the insistance of the Catholic Church we went
    to the required pre-marital classes. We were separated by the two
    year mark. Divorced by year three. 
    
    It's not like we weren't listening to the vows either. Nor did we
    enter the marriage in a "trial basis" mode. Three years
    ago I would have agreed with the notion of working hard on the problems
    because of vows and commitment, at all cost. Only now can I understand 
    that that ideal is often in conflict with what is best for both of 
    the people involved.

    To those of you blissfully married I say "good for you" but please
    don't look down upon those of us who "failed" to uphold the vows
    of until death do you part. 
    
    Gail
    

>>    To those of you blissfully married I say "good for you" but please
>>    don't look down upon those of us who "failed" to uphold the vows
>>    of until death do you part. 
    
    Gail,
	 I don't think anyone is looking down on you....I'll be the
	 first to admit that i know "nothing" about what it is like to
	 have to go through this...I'm still single!  But I do have my
	 thoughts on the subject...what I think is "right" or
	 "wrong"...  tell ya what...I'm VERY open to having my opinion
	 changed by someone that is more knowledgeable on the subject!
	 
***********************
	 
	 Its true that when you say "Till death do we part" you
	 really mean it, but I think that when two people grow it is
	 very possible for them to grow apart... a couple may be
	 together for several years and know each other very well when
	 they get married....then they grow apart and that is that...
	 divorce may be the only outlet... who knows... something like
	 that has to be taken on a case by case basis there is no real
	 answer...

	 I know that I will have a hard time saying "till death do we
	 part" even though that is what I want in a marriage...to make
	 a vow like that without being able to see into the future is
	 something difficult to do....but I would like to be in the
	 best possible position to say that...


	 I just know that, for me, it is important that I really know
	 the person...my sister has been married twice...the first one
	 ended in divorce and she freely admits that it was because
	 she just didn't know him when they jumped into marriage....I
	 would like to at least give myself and my relationship "an
	 edge" to begin to base the marriage on....it would be
	 interesting to "poll" those people that have been divorced to
	 see just what they think the reasons behind there divorce
	 where... (general reasons, that is...)  Maybe we would all be
	 suprised at the results!  :-)

	 random thoughts on random things....

	 kath
	 

    

RE: till death do us part

Since it takes two people to make a marriage work, "till death do us part" isn't
always something that one person can control.  If the other person isn't
interested in working on your marriage, do you think it's God's idea that you
should be miserable for the rest of your life for something you have no control
over?

I don't. 

Jim.