Conference quark::human_relations-v1

First of all, there is a very good discussion of this topic (in 
relation to sexual orientation) in SOAPBOX 697.  It is amazingly 
rational for SOAPBOX, and it contains a few informative articles and 
published studies.  If people want, I can repost them here.

Gay activist Harvey Milk once said that, if teachers were such strong 
role models in their influence of children, there'd be an awful lot of 
nuns walking around the street these days.

Looking past the humor, Harvey had a really good point.  Gay men, like 
myself, are raised in a fiercely heterosexual society by heterosexual 
parents and taught by (seemingly) heterosexual teachers (I've met 
quite a few gay men and lesbians who are teachers).  Yet we still 
turned out homosexual.  

I'd like to suggest to everyone that the reverse is also true.  If we 
were raised by heterosexuals and turned out homosexual, there must be 
some force at work that is stronger than "role models" when it comes 
to human sexuality.  I am suggesting that homosexual parents are also 
unable to influence the sexuality of their children.

Also, in .0, I think that there is a simplistic view of how children
react to the environment created by their parents.  I grew up in a
heterosexual environment, yet I am homosexual.  I grew up as a child
of an alcoholic, yet I am not an alcoholic (there are _other_ problems
I have related to my fathers alcoholism).  I was raised in a Catholic 
home, yet I reject Catholicism.  

The family home has an effect on the children when it comes to 
"values" or to "psychological development," but it doesn't seem to 
have a huge effect (as far as we can measure) on the sexuality of the 
child.  

For more information, I'd like to suggest that people look at the
film, "Not All Parents Are Straight."  It interviews gay and lesbian
parents and their children.  (Many straight people fail to understand
that gays as parents is more than theory; it has been happening for
years, and there are studies to show the effects of such parenting.) 
In the film, all of the children are straight (children of gays seem 
to be straight/gay in the same ratio as kids of straights, 10% ending 
up gay).  The children talk candidly about the problems they encounter 
and the joys they experience as kids who have "different" parents.  
It's an enlightening movie and I highly recommend it.


					--Gerry

    
    	I just deleted a reply to a different note where I talked about
    upbringing/environment some...
    
    	I believe the environment you're brought up in has a lot to do with
    how you behave. I've seen this to be true again and again, including
    myself. But the effects are subtle. As far as being Gay or Straight,
    that is a very pronounced aspect of a person, therefore doesnt fit
    my "subtle effect" theory.
    
    	I was originially trying to answer the "Cruel to be kind" note,
    where someone couldnt understand why a woman would (apparently)
    prefer to be treated badly, or why treating someone very_well would
    make them uncomfortable enough to want to split.
    
    	I used personal examples in my explanation, so I deleted it.
    They pointed out that people tend to be "most comfortable" in an
    environment most "like" the one in which they grew up. One person's
    parents perhaps fought a lot, so she felt most comfortable in a
    environment of cyclic conflicts. Another person's Dad was an alcoholic,
    so she happens to feel - again "most comfortable" - in the company
    of a self admitted alcoholic.
    
    	My point was that *both* these people realize they could do
    better for themselves (and children) but choose instead to remain
    "as is". This happens all the time - it's almost a chiche' now to
    hear the old_story of how they "kissed and made up" *before* the
    "case" ever makes it to court. Why?
    
    	Again, it's this subtle, but powerful picture we all hold of
    "home"...
    
    	Joe Jas

	To grow up in an environment surrounded with love is far 
	more important to an individual's well being and personal 
	orientation (whether sexual or otherwise), regardless of 
	the sex and/or sexual preferences of his/her upbringer(s).  
	It is far healthier for a child to be raised by two loving 
	homosexual parents and to KNOW and see love, rather than to 
	be raised by heterosexual parents who don't love each other 
	or are staying together "for the children's sake," or who 
	are naggy towards and have no respect for each other.

	It's not as important *who* you love; what is more important 
	is that you know how to love.

					Carla

RE: .1

"Gay activist Harvey Milk once said that, if teachers were such strong role
models in their influence of children, there'd be an awful lot of nuns walking
around the street these days."

The difference is that there are fewer ~10% homosexuals then there are
hetrosexual ~90%.  A claim can also be made that while sickness is contagous,
health is not contagous.  (no assumption that homosexuality = sickness being
made here)  It may be that homosexuality and hetrosexuality have different
amounts of influence. 

If homosexuality becomes 'ok', then it is possible that instead of ~10% of
people being decidedly homosexual, ~90% of people will have occasional
homosexual experiences.  This is another difference. 

Jim.

    re: .0
    
    >What effect do parents/environment have on children ?
    
    I've "heard" several theories on this, which came from "public school
    educators to lawyers to 'behavioural therapist  experts' to
    psychologists to other parents to talk shows to magazine articls
    to ... the road dosn't end to the number of opinions as to "What
    is the main effect on children ?".
    
   There are numerous stories such as "Danny Thomas and Jon Dillinger"
    (I think I got their  names straight) both grew up in the same
    neighborhood of parents who were of similiar wealth). The difference
    was their parents. The media is rife (if your looking fo it) of
    parents who have multiple children, and everyone will have diferent
    personalities, with one possibly being a 'saint' and one of the
    others being a 'criminal'.
    
    There is no doubt in my mind, after observing both playmates (whom
    I still see from time to time over the past 40 years); listening
    to relatives relate tales of woe about other relatives ... the one
    saving grace ANY parent can give to a child .. is to teach it to
    love ... by example, and not by words. NO matter how harsh (strict)
    a parent can be (re: Winston Churchills father) nor how abusive
    a parent may seem ... if a child is raised in a loving environment
    there will be hope for them forever.
    
    Yes, parents can be confused, just as children can be; but when
    parents act out of love for their children; their children will
    know it and remember that  for a long time. [ Assuming the child
    survives their parents ;^) love. ]
    
    One needs also to remember that children, once they become adults,
    are also responsible to determine their own personality. So if they
    recognize that their parents were less than desireable (abusive
    or alchoholic ); then it is incumbent on them to fins the means
    by which to make a change in their own personality (and not spend
    the rest of their life blaming their ineptitudes on their rotten
    parents).

    I don't beleive their is a pat answer to this question, anymore
    than there's a 'pat' answer to "What is right ?". Each individual
    is different, and all that we can do most of the time is "the best
    we know, and to continually strive to make ourselves better".
    
    Bob