Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I do think a lot of discomfort caused by different salary levels
    is cultural, but not all.
    
    After all, I make a lot less money than my husband and it is a
    sensitive point with me.  I hesitate to spend money on myself, because
    for number of hours worked/amount of effort spent, I contribute
    a lot less financially to the family than he does.  I *know* that
    the dollars contributed shouldn't be a big deal, but the disproportion
    does bother me.  Does this mean that I should contribute to the
    family more than he does in non-financial ways (ie. take on more
    of the household management than he does?).  Does it mean I should
    consider another high-paying career path (although I do what I do
    cause I want to, not cause I have to)?
    
    For many men, who may not be thinking of the other ways they contribute
    to the family, not providing the major portion of the finances may
    make them feel unneeded.  But families need male members for more
    than their paychecks.
    
    Gloria  

Foo!  I wish I had had a wife who made more money then I did...  I would
have stayed home to be with my children; something she went crazy doing,
but I would have been happy doing.

Jim.

        I don't think it should matter. I think we make a mistake when
        we treat a marraige as a partnership with the different partners
        making separate contributions. This leads to comparisons of one
        partner's contributions to the others and then to the comparison
        of what they are "getting out of it".
        
        A marriage should not be a partnership, but an organic whole--
        "two fleshes made one". The spouses don't make separate
        contributions to the family--they are the family. It don't value
        my heart more than my brain because my heart never stops working
        for an instant, but my brain has been known to stop making
        significant contributions for days at a time! Without either I
        would be nothing.
        
        If each spouse gives spouse gives their all to the marriage
        it doesn't matter what the exact proportion is in any domain.
        
        JimB.

    Is this a test? Am I supposed to be bothered? Am I expected to be
    bothered? It never bothered me when it happened (we used to leap-frog
    each other); more money is more money. 
    
    I've never understood why I would or should be bothered, it's not like
    we're in a race or anything. But I always felt like I was being
    watched, that people were waiting for me to show some sign of
    subconcious botheredness. Fortunately, I got a raise before I got
    paranoid. 
    
    	Jon

    
    RE.:  .2    	
    	I agree that men need to provide more than just a paycheck for
    their families.  But *some* men see that as the all-important factor
    in providing for their families.  
    
    re.:  .4
    	I am speaking of "couples" who are not yet married or living
    together as well as married couples.  This seems to be a factor
    that some men take into consideration when dating and/or getting
    seriously involved with  a woman.  (I entered this note in hopes
    of help in keeping this from being a major issue in a current
    relationship!)
    
    My

re.:  .5
    	Jon... your note made me smile this  morning!  thanks!  
    
    	No, this is not a test.  
    	                         
    	No, you are not *supposed* to be bothered!  
    
    	No, you are not *expected* to be bothered.  This is a very real
    issue to some men.  It takes away from their feeling of being provider,
    protector and supporter of the female in their life.  (I'm just
    now attempting to understand it myself!)  To me, it's just a difference
    in society that people didn't generally have to face 20 or 30 years
    ago.  SO, part of it comes down to what values we were taught when
    growing up!

    I think its a matter of control Myra, and that it reflects insecurity.
    Strong, secure men are not threatened by well-paid women.  

    Hi My,
    	Well, for what it's worth I may as well add my two cents to
    answer your questions. Being male though, you must realize that
    my answer is colored by my sex.
    
    With me, it's no big deal about who makes more. (gee, I wouldn't
    mind finding a rich woman. :-) ) In any relationship, as long as
    they have enough to support their needs and desires than it really
    shouldn't be an issue. What's more important is that they have mutual
    love and RESPECT for each other.
    
    Although, I can understand where your friend has come from.
    Socialization has played many parts in our lives and this is just
    one more case. According to Society, at least of the past, the male
    was the provider/protector of the family unit. I think this is changing
    though slightly.
    
    At any way, in order, I believe for the money issue to make no
    difference perhaps one needs to be really secure within oneself,
    but these are just my ramblings.
    
    

    Well, I for one have a tough time when dating someone who has a
    very different amount of $$ than me.  Probably all a result of my
    upbringing ($$ was very important) but:
    
    If he makes/has MORE than me he wants to do things I can't afford
    to do so I either 1) go broke trying to do this neat stuff, 2) become
    a charity case, or 3) don't do the expensive stuff he wants.
    
    If he makes/has LESS, then I feel guilty every time I don't treat
    him to the expensive stuff I like, am resentful every time I have
    to pay for both of us, or am resentful 'cause we can't do the neat
    stuff _I_ like, together.
    
    It's neurotic and retentive, and luckily these responses don't kick
    in unless it's a BIG financial difference, but still, it is a pain
    to deal with.  Usually if it's worked out openly the first time
    it crops up, it stays unimportant.
    
    So, if your SO is as money-weird as I am, try bringing the issue
    out in the open and figuring out how you both would deal with it.
     That way at least all parties involved know what's going on.
    
    G'luck--
    
    Lee
    
    

    what matters is it enough!

    while it has been said in so many words...
    
    It is not who earns what, that is important, but that there is respect
    for what each member does, which is important.  This respect has to be
    by the other partner and by ONESELF.
    
    SO: for those males that are brought up to believe that the "man"
    in the partnership should financially provide for his familly, HE
    may feel insecure if he cannot.  This is true for some men who feel
    they should be able to provide EVERYTHING financially that the familly
    needs.  This can be a great stress if the "female" in the relationship
    is independantly wealthy or has a good job.  
    
    I have seen these stresses in my parents.  The support my mother
    gives my father and HIS WORK directly effects his security as "the
    provider" within the family unit.
    
    The 1980's relationships are not as defined as the 1940/50 marriages.
    I know that I need to feel as "the provider", but I cannot bear
    the full expense of two+ people with the economy the way it is.
    This is somewhat difficult, I would like to be able to afford to
    support a whole familly (mine) (wouldn't we all!).
    In reaction, and with the acceptance of "the new women", I support
    my SO's (a position presently unoccupied) profession.  I would wish
    her to be the best at what she does.  I would need her to do the
    same for me.  Yet, there should be NO COMPETITION from her.  If there 
    was, I would feel insecure.  
    
    That competition does not have to be salery. Most likely salery would
    not make a difference, only my role within the relationship.  I
    wish to be the provider, if my mate was the provider, I would feel
    inadiquate.  She would have to assure me that my work was necessary
    for the standard of living we enjoyed and that she was happy and
    supportive of those efforts... simple?  
    
    In this "male-dominated world" some women have reacted by competing
    with men... and their spouses.  Occasionally, a mate will be so
    centered on their career and its direction, that they forget to
    encourage the other... this is a problem for both men and women.
    
    The male "security" and his "ego" are articles of high debate. 
    Men usually say... no problem, when there is a problem.  Most women
    can see the effects of the male ego on his behavior.  In order to
    deal with him, they have developed ways to "manipulate" the male.
    Manipulation is not always "bad".
    
    If a women is to get a promotion, instead of saying "look they are
    going to promote me, I am super! I have done better than you"  (What
    is heard, not what is said.)  Come across more passively, "my boss
    asked me to accept this position, what do you think?  Am I
    ready to accept it?  It may mean a raise.  Et cetera"  There are
    ways to deal with the "male insecurity".  It takes more time and
    patience, but it may lead to a less flamitory relationship.
    
    To open another can of worms, what happens when one is transfered?
    Especially if that transfer would require a move?  If it was the
    only way to brighten ones career?  
    
    The solution I have heard: "Set up the dominant role beforehand."
    If he is transfered, the family goes, if she is, she refuses.  A
    cut and dry solution that will result in rough feelings, any thoughts?
    
    dana

...

*male* (in)security & *male* ego???

I hate to break it to you, but women have these things too; they're not
particular to men as some people would have you think...  Usually they show
up in different ways, though...

Jim.

    yes I know Jim... but being male, I understand the male psychi a
    *little* better than female...
    
    but, the insecurity/ego triggers that the women I have dealt with
    are frequently flipped differently than the equivalent "male" ones.
    
    I would appreciate any thoughts how to avoid damaging the female
    ego... 
    
    dana

    re:  .12, .13, .14
    
    
    	Good thoughts.  Whether or not to accept promotions that involve
    transfers is probably another topic as I would consider that to
    be more stressful than the issue of my basenote!
                                          
    	RE:  insecurity/ego -- yes, women definitely have ego's too!
    At the time of my divorce it was very important to me to prove myself
    in the working world!  But it never bothered me if my spouse made
    more money than I did.  I agree with others here who have said all
    that matters is that the "family" is provided for in a style acceptable
    to both parties.  

    I have two role models for this issue.
    
    One: Man leaves high school teaching job because spouse is an
    investment banker and wisely invested her inheritance from a banker
    family. Husband becomes a priest in the Episcopal Church, using
    the family stability to support his work.
    
    He stays working with a mission until it becomes a parish (self
    supporting church) and moves on to start other missions. This person
    feels self fulfilled from the gifts that he's received  and is happily
    giving of himself. (The years befor his family was well off, they
    struggled to send two children to state college, it was only after
    the children was on their own that he was able to get into seminary
    and go on with his ordination to the priesthood). 
    
    The family income from her is $120K/year while his stipend is $28K
    plus expenses.
    
    Two: Spouse is VP of Data services in a San Francisco area bank,
    pulling about $80K/year. He dabbles in software writing ans has
    sold several packages in a medical office management. His royalities
    amounts to about $45K/year. He spends all his time with the kids
    (two boys, 2 and 5).
    
    Though these are exceptions, I believe that they are turning around.
    I hope that my spouse is capable to pull that level of income that
    I can leave DEC become a house husband.

    Another thought -- this issue can really mess up a relationship
    if it is not handled properly.
    
    A family member and his wife lived together for two years before
    getting married and having a child, buying a house together, etc.
    They *still* handle their money like two single people who are taking
    no chances on splitting up.  He puts so much of his income into
    a common fund to cover expenses and so does she.  But if he needs
    a new car and can't afford it on his pay, she doesn't have to
    contribute.  BTW, they have roughly equal incomes.  Seems a weird
    way to handle things to me, and likely to cause problems later on
    if one does make more money than the other.

    
    re.:  .8
    
    	regarding "control"... this is the same sort of control that
    is felt by whoever pays the bills/is in charge of the checkbook!
    There is a certain power there, when dealing with the money.  I
    can understand that.  But I also agree that "secure men" are not
    threatened if I make more money than they do. 
    
    re.:  .10
    
    	Yes, discussing it openly and honestly is the only way!  We
    have done that to an extent, but this is a new relationship so it
    hasn't gotten too involved yet!  I will probably just sit back and
    watch for a bit and see what happens for awhile.  Then bring it
    up again if it appears to be a problem. 
    
    	
    	Thanks everyone, for all the good responses.  Some great thoughts
    were brought out.  I think that most people who are married/living
    together and/or raising kids in these days will agree that it isn't
    who makes the most but that there is enough to provide a comfortable
    way of life (as was already stated here!)  
    
    		Myra
    

I'll probably get flamed for this, but...

When I make money, it's *my* money, I'll do with it what *I* want to, and I will
exert *my* control over it; not that I'm irresponsible with it, though.  On the
other hand, I have no problems in being on the other side, being dependent,
instead of being in control; asking for money, sometimes having it given, and
sometimes being refused. 

Ric's mother often felt she could *demand* money from me for things, and I was
supposed to naturally acquiesce to her demands.  Wrong, I place a certain value
on money, or perhaps more accurately, on how it is spent, and she frequently
wasted money.

I guess that when it came right down to it, I felt that she was sponging off of
me, and not supplying her share of the support that the marriage needed, that
she *could* have provided, monetarily, or otherwise. 

I'm not a miser, or a spendthrift, and ocasionally I do give expensive gifts.
But it is *me* doing the *giving*; It's not someone else telling me I have
to '''give''/*pay*...

Jim.

    My wife and I have never had "your money", "my money", and "our
    money".  Probably because for the first 10 years there wasn't enough
    money to worry about!!!
    
    In any case the family just has "money".  She spends money on what she
    wants to, I spend on what I want to, when we run out we stop.
        
    At one time my wife made more money than I did.  It didn't matter
    a damn, except to the people I worked with.  Some of them absolutely
    couldn't understand how a "real man" could let his wife help support
    the family.

    Besides, if she hits the big time, theres this little red Porsche
    944 Turbo I have my eye on!!!!!!
    
    Dave