Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Gee, ...I could have written this note.  It is very confusing isn't
    it.  Especially today with AIDS etc., but even before AIDS it was
    confusing.  Women feel so vulnerable when they sleep with a man.
    Much more so than men do I think.  Must come from all those thousand
    of years of evolution when,...if you slept with someone who was
    going to be off swinging through the trees in the morning...you'd end
    up having your baby alone with the tigers and dinosaurs prowling
    about looking for lunch.  
    >Are we nuts? ...maybe
    >Are we properly cautious? ...In this day and age? -definitely.
    >Are we hopelessly insecure? ....(God, where did I put that shrink's
    phone number...)
                           

    
    Women are not the only ones who fall prey to this sort of thing.
    Usually, at the first hint of possible relationship I go down a
    stream of consciousness that goes something like this:
    
    	"Well, there could be something happening here..."
    	"Don't be an idiot...  Why should she even consider you..."
    	"Well, we get along pretty good..."
    	"So what?  YOU?  Relationship with YOU?"
    	"Yeah, why not?"
    	"Look in a mirror, why don't you?  If she's going to burden
    	 herself with a male, she can do better..."
        "It COULD happen!"
    	"It's about as likely as congruent snowflakes..."
    
    	Fortunately, I have a couple of friends who recognize these
    symptoms and thrash me as necessary.  Nevertheless, insecurites
    abound, from a number of sources.
                                 
    	I've run into the "men are only after one thing" more than once.
    It's one of a myriad of things that makes me wonder if a person
    is going to be worth my effort, if she's going to jump to conclusions
    like that without even knowing me.  I realize you have to be careful,
    but geez, at least make some effort to find out, is what I say.
    
    DFW

    but nice boys do :-)

    Maybe one day <---- will write an intelligent/sincere comment
    and the Mill will start to shake and rattle from the
    sound of the Lord 'screaming at his shoes'...

    -------------------------------------------------------

    You are not insecure, just that MOST MEN ARE just
    after sex.  

     Re.  0

          First off, Welcome aboard MaryAnn.  Always  glad to see 
     a new VTxxx.

          I don't think you are the only one left  with  hang-ups
     from  our  past growing up, as we are a lot like our parents
     in more ways than we sometimes like to think.  But  I  don't
     feel  that  the feelings of insecurity in a new relationship
     are past down in genes nor do I feel they are taught  to  us
     as   much  by  our  parents  as  they  are  by  our  overall
     environment.   Protection  of  our  inner  self  must  be  a
     dominant  trait as most of us build some sort of wall around
     us when we are hurt in some way.  As we experience more  let
     downs  the  thicker  the  wall gets and the more insecure we
     feel.

          Me?  After some 15 years of dating and  5  years  of  a
     failed  marriage,  the wall is pretty thick and I find it to
     be a long time knowing someone before I begin to feel secure
     enough to even let my feelings be known by the woman I might
     be seeing at the time.  Hold a woman's hand?   Dare  I  kiss
     her?   I  have  a  hard enough time asking for another date.
     Why do I subject myself to possible rejection?  If  a  woman
     can't  feel  secure  enough  to  make the first move, then I
     can't either.

          Your feelings about your relationship  (to  me  anyway)
     seem  quite  natural.   A year ago I spent two months with a
     woman only to find she was just along for  the  ride.   That
     was  the  real  killer  for  a  first  relationship  after a
     divorce.  We are just feeling secure enough to want  to  try
     another but then I'll have to give that some serious thought
     first.

          As far as "Nice girls don't" and "Men  are  only  after
     one  thing".   Both  are  few and far in between.  How about
     "Nice boys don't" and "Woman  are  only  after  one  thing".
     That  also is few and far in between.  We're all human and a
     human dealer would be  hard  pressed  to  stock  a  standard
     model.

     The SUN always provides us with the sense of security.

     Lee

     (Oh god, I feel a bad case of the CTRL/Z's.  Why doesn't the
     sun shine at midnight?)

    Re: "Nice Girls Don't!", people tried to tell me that when I was
    growing up, too.  Fortunately, I didn't pay much attention.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    	Finally understood!
    
    	I agree with Steve...wait, what?
    
    

    >>    Does anybody but me have real left-over hangups from having been
    >>    taught from the time they were 10 that 'nice girls don't' and 'men
    >>    are only (always!) after one thing'?  

         I agree with Michael (.4) that MOST men are after only one thing.
    However, I have several female friends who are only interested in that 
    same "one thing" (I know you guys are thinking "I want to meet these
    women!" :-)) so it isn't fair to make that generalization just about men.  
    We both have the same needs, right?  So why are women told that "nice 
    girls don't" and men are encouraged to go out and put as many notches
    in their belt as they possibly can before getting tied down with one 
    woman?      

         I think most girls chose to forget about what their mothers told
    them until they are reminded of AIDS, herpes, unwanted pregnancies and
    abortion.  Not to mention, the premise that if you do, you're a "sleazebag,"
    if you don't you're a "prude," and if you are somewhere in between then you
    get labled a "tease."  And, the guys aren't much better off in today's 
    society either.  Now if a guy doesn't "make a move," the girl may
    ass*u*me that he's gay instead of trying to be a gentleman and if he
    does, then he's an "animal."

    Hey, what are we doing???  
    
    It's only a hangup if one allows it to be a hangup.       
    

    How about it's better when it is of equal importance to both
    partners? And if you are the kind  of man or woman who is
    not comfortable with physical intimacy outside of a close,
    freindship/commited relationship then you won't be satisfied
    with anything less. Just be careful not to test the relationship
    to death. It is possible that you can be so overly concerned with
    trying to be sure about someone that you drive them away with your
    anxieties. 

    There are certainly some interesting comments in here!  Some different
    points of view (that I hadn't thought about!) and also a couple
    that I don't understand.  Maybe some 'noters' jokes that it takes
    a while for a newcomer to catch up to!
    
    As an update, I think .11 put into words what I've now seeing in
    myself.  Maybe I'm looking for 'this is permanent; we're not ever
    going to hurt each other' sort-of committment from him, even though
    I'm probably not capable of making that right now & I'm SURE he's
    not!  (His last HURT went a LOT deeper than mine!  And maybe men
    do heal slower; seems like there is another note in here about that!)
    Anyway, I think there is a real risk that I (or anyone else) can
    turn into a sniveling idiot (maybe that's a bit strong, but I can't
    think of a descriptive phrase for the image I have in my mind!)
    looking for assurances of how the other is going to feel in the
    future.
    
    As for my particular situation, I just returned from a long week-end
    of sharing an activity we both enjoy (tournament bridge) and I feel
    a lot more comfortable with this particular situation.  I do REALLY
    feel that a lot of my insecurity comes from 'breaking this rule
    out of the past' and sort of anticipating that something bad will
    happen because I'm breaking a rule.  
    
    
    Maybe it's time to go back to the shrink for a tune-up . . . .
    
    Thanks for all the comments and feel free to keep responding!
    
    Maryann
    

    
    So what's wrong with sex? Sure I like sex and so does my
    partner as much as we both want it!
    The key here is "WE BOTH!"
                
    That's not to say one might want it more than the other, but
    it's a mutual decision that makes it.
    
    I can't believe all the hangups imposed upon our generation! From
    our parents, teachers, and some of these so called shrinks, and
    religious people. It's no wonder we can't think straight!
    
    Perhaps I'm off the track, but sometimes you just reach a point
    when you get totally disgusted with some of these views.
    
    No such thing as a Bad Girl!
    
    Cal
    

    Perhaps the statement has changed...
    
          The 50's     "Nice girls don't until they are married"
          The 60's     "Nice girls don't until they are engaged"
          The 70's     "Nice girls don't until they are in a committed
                        relationship"
    
    What is it for the 80's?
    
         

For the 80's      "Nice girls don't until they have seen the health
                   card" 8^)
    
    
    

I've been reading a book (fiction) which says that the right thing to do is for
childhood sweathearts to marry when they are physically ready for sex and
children.  First love is often the strongest, and you have the advantage of
knowing each other real well.  The *problem* is that todays economic system
makes it impossible.

What'cha think...?

Jim :-) 

    re .17
    
    Seems like another myth to me. I know a couple that went together
    all the way from grade school til marriage after college. They
    lived on the same street. Their divorce was quite messy. 
    
    Childhood sweethearts are subject to the same stresses after
    marriage as anyone else.
    
    Bob Mc
    

    
    
    Nice girls do but they usually wait for the right moment. After
    all what sort of relationship does one have if half the time is
    spent in bed not really talking or getting to know someone.....no
    one should pressure you (both genders here) to sleep with them.
    I feel if I guy is very pushy and agressive he usually gets booted
    out of my house or if we are somewhere in public I usually make
    sure he understands either to cut it out or I will find my way back
    home.
    
    Back to the subject.........
    
    doubles standards exist everywhere, especially between the sexes
    and what is right and wrong. You have to do what you feel is right
    for you and not  "Will he still love me if I don't?" Chances are
    if he really does love you he will understand.
    
    Debbi
    a.k.a. Sunshine
    
    Hi Mike!

Re. .17: Hogwash.  At the age when people are first ready for sex and
capable of childbearing, emotions may be strong but are quite changable
both in the sort and long term.  That's not a function of our society.
What is a function of our society is that, at some age, people are largely
allowed to make their own mating/marriage decisions.  In societies where
these decisions were made by parents and might well pair up couples
in their early teen years, the social environment made the emotional
swings of adolescence an irrelevant factor in couple's staying together.


Re. .0 etc.: There's a book I've seen on the shelves called "Nice Girls DO"
by a Dr. Ruth clone.  The substance of the book is that nice girls *do*
enjoy sex and sexual variety, contrary to the teachings of some previous
generations. There's been so much crap taught about sex in various
societies (most especially western society in the past couple centuries)
it's a wonder the human race didn't cease to reproduce and/or relate
altogether. Books like the aforementioned are part of the process that
we've been going through over the past few decades to rid ourselves of some
of the hangups that resulted from these earlier misguided views. 

In sum, it's not easy to rid ourselves of internal pressures to conform
to stereotypes that we learned as children, even if we have rationally
concluded that they are invalid.  However, we can support each other
in this process.

    [Hi Debbi, ER Sunshine?  Ugh. 8-}]

    Cultural unbringing has alot to do with this,
    in particular is Judeao-Christian guilt.  

    If Nietzche is right then we are all in trouble
    in this situation.

    re .20 and .21
    
    Could you clarify what you are saying a little. Do you mean 
    that women are freeing themsevles of hangups that kept them
    from enjoying sex, or are you encouraging them to be free of
    hangups against casual sex and multiple partners? 

RE: .18

Well, yes, but I don't think you read all of my note...  it said that the
problem was the economic system, not marrying young...

Jim.

    >>>There's been so much crap taught about sex in various
	societies (most especially western society in the past couple centuries)
	it's a wonder the human race didn't cease to reproduce and/or relate
	altogether. 

    On the contrary - so many people are illiterate nowadays, all they
    DO know how to do is horizontal exercise!

re: .20
	Well said!

re: .21
>>  Do you mean 
>>  that women are freeing themsevles of hangups that kept them
>>  from enjoying sex, or are you encouraging them to be free of
>>  hangups against casual sex and multiple partners? 

	One way to look at is that some women AND men are trying
	to free themselves of hangups that prevent them from
	enjoying sex.  In some cases those hangups may relate
	to prohibitions against multiple partners or "casual"
	sex.  (Of course "casual" is a loaded term--some folks
	may consider any sex outside of marriage or with someone
	other than an almost tied-down future spouse as being
	"casual"; other folks might consider any sex where you
	don't bother to learn the other person's last name as
	"casual".)

	If you were born in one of the latter generations, the
	prohibition might be against being a virgin though!  It
	doesn't matter--the general principle is that people
	should be able to grow into a comfortable or natural
	sexuality for themselves without having a lot of societal
	bulls**t imposed on them.  That's the goal.  The reality
	right now is that they can't because of the particularly
	poisonous aforementioned bulls**t that's been floating
	around for quite a few generations.  So it becomes a real
	struggle for each individual, unfortunately.

    RE .0 I assume your mother was a nice girl. :-)
    
    Seriously, I think that sex is ONE component of a good
    relationship. Companionship, the ability to disagree
    politely, and most importantly- RESPECT.    
    
    Lately, most girls I meet are only after one thing - coke.

    re .26:
    
    Maybe you should carry a can with you :-) :-) :-).
    
    Mike

�    Lately, most girls I meet are only after one thing - coke.
                  ^^^^^

Why don't you try going out with some *women*?  ;-)

Angeline

    Now there's an honest opinion.  I can be found most often
    at Ralph's with some GIRL asking "Do you have any Coke?"

    Who me?

    re .28:  Good one Angeline!
    
    Lee
    

Re: .31, .28 --

I don't like to speak for others, but I think it's safe to say that most guys
_would_ go out with "women" rather than "girls" -- it's telling the difference
by their appearance that's tough!  ( Let's face it, the differentiating factors
are not visible! )  ;-)    ;-)


Brian

    The difference is that girls ask for what they want and women bring
    their own.:-)

Re:  .33 --


[ image of palm striking forehead ]

_Now_ I understand!  ;-)


Brian

    re: .32 & .33
    
    [image of *woman* scratching head]
    
    	Is that coke or pepsi...or have I lost track of the topic?