Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    The fact's to me are...two people can exhaust each other pretty
    well just tryin to entertain one another.
    

    RE .2
    
    Come on Kerry, from what I hear you never get exhausted entertaining
    a girl!     :-)

    re.3 

    Its common knowledge among the "female community".:-)
    

As one interested in various community living arrangements, I've heard various
bits and pieces abouty group marriages, and I know of several people who
are in them.

There is a little information in HYDRA::HOLISTIC Note 28.*

If you're interested, contact me, and I'll share some of what I've heard, but
it's too incoherent to squeeze into a note...

Jim. 

    I love reading your notes Lorna.  You get right to the heart of
    the matter. :-)

    RE .2
    
         I dont know about you , but then again I would have a problem
         with any relationship that required entertaining the other
         person in order to keep it going. In short Ide get out of it
         in a hurry. If they couldnt enjoy being with me for me it isnt
         worth it.   
    
                              Bob B

    re.9 re.2
    read it again 
    it sez entertaining each other
    

    re: .7
    
    I ask myself the same question, Lorna, "Who cares?"  Obviously, sombody
    care, or maybe all this stuff is part of some "genetic memory." But
    then there is this stuff we call "bonding" or "community" or
    "affiliation" for which most if not all of us crave yet in this day and
    age  scares the living $#%& out of a lot of folks.
    
    I started trying to sort this stuff out when I was about 11 or 12.
     I still haven't put the puzzle together.  I just have a lot more
    experiences which I can meditate on and say to myself, "Yup, that
    that was an experience which I may or may not want to repeat."
    
    When my son's mother and I were deciding to get divorced, we considered
    some alternative since we both felt like the other was a good parent.
     In the end we decided that the other alternatives (aforementioned)
    were less socially acceptable and or more difficult to implement
    and manage than divorce.  Pretty weird, huh?  A culture  that doesn't
    provide alternatives for preserving familial structures other than
    to break them apart and reconstitute the parts.

    You know you're right about the "genetic memory, bonding, community,
    affiliation" stuff!
    
    And our society doesn't have a "reasonable alternative" to divorce
    but, just like there are all kinds of marriages and most people
    mold their marriages into what they WANT them to be....., there
    can also be all kinds of divorces too.  
    
    It's hard to have work out a divorce that provides the children with
    security, a good self image and self respect.  It means swallowing a
    lot of pride and hanging on to your objectivity for dear life,...
    but it can be done.  
    
    Granted it has its ups and downs and there are times you just want to 
    walk away but (and here is another aspect of our lives that our
    society doesn't recognize), even after divorce some element of family
    still exists and will always exists (yikes...I'd better duck, I'm
    going to get creamed for that one:-}).
    
    If you are one of the special people (re: .11 you sound like you
    are) who can handle that kind of divorce,...it makes life a thousand
    times easier for the children and the payback is emotionally healthy,
    strong, happy kids.

At least in this society, I think most people are monogamous.  Who can 
honestly say they are not jealous when their partner even vaguely appears
to be wandering, or even thinking about it.  We are pretty possessive.  I
also don't think our current alarming divorce rate has anything to do with
it.  All divorces I have seen have resulted in poor communication, poor 
self-esteem on the part of one or both party, or just plain selfishness.  I
would also say that most divorces I have seen should not have happened, 
because both parties were going from a bad, but salvagable situation to a 
much worse one.  And the vast majority of the ex-marrieds are after another
monogamous relationship.  

I don't believe people have relationships to be entertained.  People outside
of close relationships are essentially alone.  In the strongest marriages I 
know, husband and wife are best friends, though they may have different
tastes, different talents and different cultural backgrounds.  In my marriage
(16 years), I have found that the true test has always been the bad times, and 
the relationship has always been permanently stronger (more trust, more 
understanding, more caring) coming out of a bad period.  This is very hard to
pull off with two people, over a long period of time.  For more than two
people, or "serial" (ie short term) relationships, I don't see how it could 
work except on rare occasions.

    re.7
    sorry lorna wasnt meant as an attack on you :-)
    i just dont agree with you about it.
    just dont think people realize how much pain is caused in these
    type of situations. granted it takes two to tango and cheating by
    one partner is a symptom or sign that something is wrong in the
    realtionship.
     maybe if couples could communicate needless pain could be avoided.
    
     i would hate to think that i could be capable of causing such pain
     to another person,but who knows about the future....
    
    						kelly					

    Re .18, the statements I made in .7 were made in disillusionment.
     I don't agree with them myself.  
    
    That's why I deleted it.
    
    Here is all there is to say about monogamy as far as I can tell.
    Most men/many men/all men/a few men/the men I meet (?) all want
    to be able to have sex with whoever they want, whenever they want.
     They also want to have their wife/girlfriend/S.O. be completely
    faithful to them, and not complain about the fact that it's a one-way
    street.  That's the way it was one thousand years ago, one hundred
    years ago, ten years ago, today - and why should it ever change.
    
    Women can take their pick.  Find a guy you love and keep your mouth
    shut when he goes out with other women, or she can go out with whoever
    she wants and accept the fact that no husband/S.O./boyfriend will
    accept it and that most of society will call her a tramp and a slut
    and a whore.  Or she can live a life separate from men and everyone
    will pity her because she couldn't get a man.
    
    Go ahead women - have fun - it's a great choice - either way you
    lose.
    
    Lorna
    

Re:  .19


	I'd have to say that the proper choice must be "some men" -- not all
are like that.  I know I'm not, and I know of others like me.


	Isn't there a third choice -- find a guy you love, and who loves you.
I can't imagine how anyone could really love someone and yet still have thoughts
about others.  But then there's lots I can't imagine!  ;-)


	I'm sure sorry you feel that way.


Brian

    Re: .19
    
    Brian in .20 echoed my thoughts.  When I am in love, I am completely
    faithful - I don't even "look" at other women.  I expect no more
    of my partner than I expect of myself.  Love and trust go hand in
    hand.
    
    					Steve

I don't believe for a minute that every man every where wants nothing 
more than to see how many sexual conquests he can make in a lifetime.. 
I think there are *some* possibly just as there are *some* women who 
are also of the same frame of mind... but I find it hard to believe it 
is the norm.

To be told from a lover/husband/SO/ETC. that one is and will be 
faithful is certainly not enough... it is the actions of the partner 
that will truly exemplify the intentions.  A man in love, total love, 
wanting to share of his life, dreams, ambitions and desires is very 
unlikely to be unfaithful...  Infidelity, I feel, grows from boredom
and if one is not bored with the person they are sharing their life 
with there is no reason for going outside the relationship to find 
that sense of forfillment.  I am not talking about night after night 
of passion to ward off boredom, I am talking about communication, 
sharing, understanding and warmth... these things convey messages.. 
the message being I love you, am interested in you and what you are 
about and form a bond between two people.

In a relationship where one is giving and not getting is it any great 
surprise to find out the partner not taking an active part in the 
relationship has strayed?  I think not...  these are signs that the 
relationship is in trouble.. if the party no longer interested is just 
that, not interested then certainly there is no basis for a 
relationship... sad as it is.

I am sorry but I think a women can win just as a man can.. it takes 
getting to know someone and finding out if indeed there is the kind of 
compatibility to form a long term relationship from.  If a woman ops 
for impermanent romances  as opposed to seeking more permanent 
relationships than she has still won.. she has decided what it is she 
wants from relationships and has carried through with her intentions..  
good grief.. do we as human really care what others think?  If the 
answer is no than what is there to worry about.. if the answer is yes 
and one indeed does care, then a little self analysis serves in sorting
that through....

gailann

    re .19:
    
    I'll echo the other men who say that not all men (probably not
    even a majority) are tom-cats.  I may look at the women I see
    every day in passing with lust in my heart, but that's a long
    way from saying I want to to do anything with them.  I've always
    been faithful to my SOs in the past, and plan to stay that way.
    It's not an effort at all: it's the way I like being.  Aesthetic
    appreciation is not active desire.
    
    Any long-term relationship has a lot more in it than sex, and
    among those things are trust and caring.  I hope you can find
    them sometime: life is not as grim as your note implies, and 
    there are more than two choices open!
    
    				-John Bishop
    

    re.19
    oh lorna that is so sad. maybe i am an innocent but i still believe
    in love and in being "faithful".
    maybe when i am older i too will be disillusioned...
    but for now "hope springs eternal"
    
    					kelly :-)
    

    
    re: .27
    
    "When are you going to find a man and...."
    
    How about when you're damned good and ready?  I don't agree with
    my parents on a whole lot of things these days, but my dad didn't
    marry my mother until his mid-thirties.  My mom is 9 years his junior,
    but she had already been married once.
    
    I don't want to sound like I'm making light of your situation. 
    I mean, if you're looking very hard for someone and not finding
    them, I feel bad for you.  And I know something about the pressure
    of relatives, too.  I'm just trying to say that you shouldn't let
    gestures from your relatives enter into a decision like that.
    
    DFW