Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Yes, I have a comment.  Drop it.  It's clear your former girlfriend
    is uncomfortable with the idea of seeing you again, for whatever
    her reasons.  She knows where you are - if she ever changes her
    mind, she'll get in touch with you.  Don't push it, or you may find
    yourself even more upset than you are now.
    					Steve

    
    RE: .0
    
    I agree with Steve (-.1) in that it sounds to me like you're not
    "over" your emotional attachment with her and that seeing her again
    may just cause you pain, maybe even more if her husband is there.
    If you desire is truly to continue in a firendship with her, there
    isn't anything wrong with that in my opinion (one of my current
    "best" female friends is someone I used to date seriously and who
    is now in a live-in relationship).  Maybe she's not sure of her
    feelings being re-kindled, not trustful of your motives, or maybe
    her new husband is the jealous type, or any combination of those.
    Whatever her reasons, I don't feel it's in your best interests to
    pursue it.  A friendship of this type only works if BOTH parties
    desire it and can handle it emotionally.
    
    					Joe

    WHy you pushing ?  Still feelings eh ?

    If you ask me (What ?  You didn't ? tough) your 'x'
    was never a 'so'.

    Re: All of the previous...
    
    	Not pushing.  Although I wasn't really looking for advice (I
    had already decided on a course of action), I do tend to agree with
    those who gave it.  I do not intend to "push", but I believe in
    a civilized world, you should be able to be friends even after
    marriage.  As I said, I will extend an invitation to them both
    to the next party I throw.  If they come, great.  If she tells
    me they won't/can't/won't-ever come, I will bow out gracefully.
    A friendship is too valuable to throw away without some effort on
    my part.
    
    	Michael - depends on your definition.  The overall picture was
    a year of a "serious relationship" and a year of just being close
    friends.  Not looking to either rekindle the flame or break up the
    marriage - just would like to be friends again.
    
    	I'm still friendly with several of my old "girlfriends" (for
    lack of a better term) from college. When I visit, I have had their
    current 'SO's react all across the spectrum.  One guy refused to
    let one of them sleep in the same house with me (she slept at his
    and I slept at hers).  Those I have met, I've liked for the most 
    part, we've gone out as a group, and I felt no active hostility
    from them nor directed any at them.
    
    	Maybe it's because I can't understand the {desire/need/urge}
    to restrict my friends based on marital status that I posted this
    here.  Comments anyone?
    
    
    					--Doug

	I think everybody goes through periods of uncertainty and insecurity
    in which they feel threatened by the SO's old "ghosts in the attic".  I
    guess when people fall in love, they usually expect to be the most impor-
    tant thing in that person's life.  This would mean that they would typically
    want to (at least pretend to themselves) that their new SO has never had,
    nor will ever be bothered by, old lovers/friends/aquaintances from the past.

	Obviously, nobody you will meet was born yesterday, and the chances of
    this person never having had a "significant other" in their past is almost
    impossible.  Nevertheless, people do tend to fall into the trap of believing
    that they can provide for this fantasy be trying to wipe-out their past for
    their new SO.  Have you ever gone through your new SO's old photographs
    with him/her and selectively pitched certain photos which cause jealousy?
    It's the same principle, and it's usually based on insecurity.

	Jealousy works in strange ways on the brain.  It defys all logic, and
    typically has little basis for its own existence, but it never fails to
    make itself known.  A good way to observe jealousy in it's unsuppressed
    form is to watch a (sheltered) baby of around two years old deal with a
    newborn baby brother/sister as they go through the initial pains in dis-
    covering that they now have to compete for mommy's attention.  It usually
    subsides after the baby realizes that mommy still loves them too, but it
    sure is a painful experience at first.

	As to the party .0 mentioned throwing: don't be surprised if they don't
    show-up, but maybe someday they'll be able to come to terms with the past
    and feel more secure about themselves to the point where they might actually
    come to another such party.  Then again, maybe the situation is a little
    more complicated by other factors (who knows?).

								-davo

    Besides the issue of past relationships I would also throw out there 
    are people who appear to feel quite strongly that couples should 
    always be a pair.  
    
    Don was out sailing last Saturday and I was off doing personal errands 
    and what not.  He took a friend's sister out sailing and had a 
    conversation early on that went something like:
    
    Her:  "She doesn't mind you out sailing without her?"
    
    Him:  "No, she had other things she wanted to do."
    
    Her:  "You don't care that she's off doing (... tones of do you
    	   really know what she's doing...) stuff by herself?"
    
    Him:  "No...
    
    As far a Don could tell she really couldn't comprehend a relationship
    that didn't include the two people spending all non-work time together.
    
    I will admit that we were both quite appalled by the whole thing
    since we've always treated time as something that was:  some yours,
    some mine, and some ours.  I also found myself feeling profoundly
    greatful that I've never been in a relationship where the other 
    person expected all free time to be together time!.
    
    Ah well,
    		Audrey

    
    RE: .7
    
    Audrey, I just can't resist REPLYing to your REPLY.  GREAT for you
    and Don!!
    
    Your (and apparently Don's) attitude towards your time away from
    work is (in my opinion) a VERY mature attitude!!  Being able to
    give each other some "space" to "do your own" things, rather than
    either giving those things up or forcing the other to do them, while
    still reserving time for each other (rather than drifting apart
    by doing little/nothing together), is what I feel not only makes
    a relationship work, but also helps it to last!!  The trust you
    showed in each others is praiseworthy, to say the least!!
    
    I strongly feel that the people who feel a NEED to spend every
    non-working hour together are not "so in love", but jealous and
    untrusting of each other when out of sight of each other!!
    WANTING to spend time together is a positive, NEEDING to can be
    a negative in a relationship.
    
    It's sure nice to know that there are others who feel as I do about
    sound relationships not having to be proven by doing everything
    together!!
    
    					Joe

re .0

Obviously you know her better than I do, but ...

Are you certain that she refused to see you because *he* objected?  I've known a
few people who, for reasons of their own, refuse to have anything to do with
their ex's after marriage, even though they'd been on good terms before.  In
fact, they may cut off whole groups of friends at that time.  I think it's
silly, but it happens.  "I don't think that would go over very well..." may have
just been an excuse.

    When we were getting married, my wife was pleased that, with a couple
    of exceptions (2 geographical + 1 ice queen) my former lovers were
    still my friends.  In fact, four of them were guests at the wedding 
    and one of them played the bagpipes for a recessional at the end 
    of the service.
    
    More than a decade later we still see some of them once or twice a
    year and there has been some sharing of confidences and mutual support of
    our separate relationships.
    
    For the first year of our married life we were hardly out of each
    other's sight.  We moved back to New England just after the wedding
    and spent the summer at my family's cottage in Rockport, Mass.,
    caring for my invalid aunt.  One day I took the train up to Boston
    for a job interview and we realized that it was the first time in
    three months of marriage that we hadn't been within hailing distance
    of each other.  In the fall we settled in Maine and took over the
    running of a small letterpress print shop, working side by side 
    10+ hours a day.
    
    I think that being so close in the early days of our marriage helped
    make us confident in each other so that we do not feel threatened
    or jealous now that we sometimes go our separate ways socially.
    
    					Dennis J. Ahern
    					(unlisted ELF)
                                                 

Dennis (re 63.10):

Your thoughts re old friends make me wonder:

Do you ever want to have even a brief affair with one of these X's?

If not, why not?  And what do you have in your current relationship which 
precludes this?

If so, how do you handle the emotional urge when it does strike?

	Mike

    Maybe women see this differently than men do but if I starting seeing
    (as a friend) a man that I had once loved and been close to, I would
    have a real hard time keeping from loving him again.
    
    I found the previous note on cheating fascinating.  If men really
    do consider "emotional" relationships as cheating and not "physical"
    ones, then former lovers are the greatest threat to a relationship
    because even if a woman isn't sleeping with them she may very well
    still care.
    
    The previous note on cheating pointed out that the woman viewed
   " physical" relationships as cheating and that is so much easier to
    deal with.  If your man can be trusted you don't have to worry,
    regardless of how many female friends he may have.
              
   It's been my experience that "people" are going to do what they want
    regardless, so....you might as well find someone you can respect,
    trust and admire and then let him alone to do what he chooses....(and
    hope he chooses to be with you, at least some of the time).
    MP