Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I used to find "The 700 Club" to be the least offensive of the
    TV-preacher type programs ... until I saw their telethon.  Future
    President Pat Robertson isn't past a little psychological manipulation
    to build *his* kingdom on Earth ....
    
    I've noticed that most of these programs work off of people's fears (of
    money problems, suffering, etc.).
    
    -dc

    RE: .0
    
    I hope you will invest in decent remote controller next time.  The
    one with both the channel changer and a OFF button.  And make use
    of it.  Actually buy a new TV where you can block off certain channels.
   
>    Folks this went on for 20 minutes; no commercials, no nothin!
    
    Commercials?  Do you know from *where* and *how* they get their money
    to run those stations or programs?
    
    - Vikas

      RE: .0
    
      No commericials? Sounds like you heard one big commericial for
    a $400 bronze shoe.
    
      "AND IF YOU CALL NOW, YOU WILL GET ABSOLUTIALY FREE GOLD LACES
    FOR YOUR BRONZE SHOES, AND THAT'S NOT ALL ... "

    I have a hard time dealing with Jerry F. and all of his friends.
    I don't understand how anyone can believe the things they say,
    while really watching some of the things they do.  What they mainly
    do is judge other "sinners" based on their own highly developed
    (and supposedly maintained) "standards."
    
    Seems to me that about 2000 or so years ago, some fellow told
    his disciples "judge not, lest ye be judged,"  but I could be
    wrong.  I wasn't there at the time. At least HE didn't go around
    selling bronze baby shoes.
    
    I believe in God, and I believe in the fallibility of the human
    race.  One of our greatest gifts is that we can learn from our
    mistakes.
    
    Learn from yours.  Turn off the TV next time and get 20 minutes
    extra sleep.  You'll feel better.
    
    P.S.  As an aside, anyone who deals with such a personally painful
          and heart-rending decision as abortion in such a commercial
          and self-righteous manner gets my "villain of the year award"
          complete with a bronze baby bootie in a strategic location.
    
    Mary-Michael

    re.-1
    
    Strangely enough, J.F. and friends don't find their actions to be
    hypocritical ... they have an interpretation of the Bible, etc.
    which supports them.
    
    There is a passage in the Bible which reads something like "whatever
    you give on Earth will be returned to you a hundred-fold ..." - one
    would think that it refers to rewards in the afterlife (heaven).
    But most of the TV evangelists use this passage to mean that, if
    you send them X dollars, you will eventually receive 100*X dollars
    back.  Occasionally they refer to this as "sowing the seed" and
    "reaping the harvest."  They're giving people a biblically-based
    get-rich-quick scheme, and lordy the dollars roll in.

    It's sick.
    
    -dc

    re: -1
    
    Y'know, I remember interpreting that passage the same way at
    one point in my Christian life.  I was about seven at the time.
    
    
    Mary-Michael

    WGBH ran a fascinating Swiss TV show about TV evangelicals,
    Jim Bakker and Harold (?) Aingeley in particular.  This was a couple
    of nights ago.  I don't know if they intend to repeat it.  I know
    someone who taped it.
    				Steve

    I think companies like Digital and IBM should hire these evangelists
    to do sales training.  (-;
    
    If they can sell what they're selling as successfully as they are,
    just think what they could do if they had a viable product
    to sell!!!!!

    
    					(-:	Positive Pat	:-)

    re .3  Where does the money come from?  Well, Vikas, I suppose it
    comes from the  enormous donations they receive from all over the
     country.  It's sort of frightening just how large a following Rev
    F. (et.al.) has/have.
    
    re .4  No gold laces but I may have heard that they were giving
    away a set of ginzu (sp?) knives to the first 50 callers  :-)

    I realize it takes vast sums of money to operate a church - lights,
    air, other expenses but this type of t.v. hype is just too commercial
    for my tastes.  It's always "dig deep and give"....  far cry from
    when Christ gave his Sermon on the Mount and provided a meal for
    no admission charge, eh
        

    RE: .10
    
    I guess you don't know what happens to your tax money.  I claim
    that *my* tax money is used *indirectly* to support those bastards.
    
    If they paid their share of taxes, I bet my burden will go down.
    
    - Vikas

    	There is a movement afoot among some evangelical Christians 
    to have the tax-free status revoked.  They feel this will serve 
    as a message to those on the outside that there is a remnant of
    those within conservative Christianity that do not claim allegience
    to the Falwellian image percieved by most onlookers.  This also
    will serve to stand behind desire to rid our country of the national
    deficit.
    
    	Concerning the "Prosperity Doctrine" (ie give and you will recieve
    a hundredfold), I believe it is a run-amock doctrine that contains
    an element of truth.  Many of you can look back and recall times
    when a giving heart has caused uncountable blessings in return -
    not necessarily financial, but rewarding nonetheless.  The problem
    comes when the attention is focussed on the returns rather than
    the investment.  Too often we give with a string tied to our offerings.
    Unfortunately a few enterprizing individuals have found a way to
    capitalize on this common human fault using a principle that is
    based in truth.
    
    	One more note on evangelical finances:  There has been an
    organization founded on the principle that if a religious organization
    receives public donations and is blessed by a government that allows
    tax exemption status, there is an extremely high accountablity that
    needs to be recognized.  This organization helps churches and
    para-church groups set there finances in order and makes them adhere
    to high standards of accounting and public access of annual financial
    documents.  If you have any question about the use of donations
    of a group in question and they belong to this organization you
    can be assured you will be able to resolve those questions.  I believe
    this was started by a hunger relief organization and is adhered
    to by such names as Billy Graham (who has an extremely high sense
    of financial accountabilty - note how you seldom if ever see him
    soliciting for funds on his countless TV specials).

	    I remember seeing Jerry Falwell on TV, and his big thing
	then was the rosters one could get on, in accordance with the
	size of one's contribution.  The rosters had names suggesting
	that one's reward in the afterlife would depend on one's con-
	tribution to Jerry Falwell.
	    I don't recall the exact names, but those who only made a
	small contribution would get on the "Maybe Not Going To Go To
	Hell" roster, while those who made a large contribution would
	get on the "First In Line At The Pearly Gates" roster.

	    One woman gave all her money to Jerry Falwell and wanted
	to sell the family farm to give him more.  Her son was very
	angry.  He was also a hacker.
	    He set up his computer and modem to continuously dial
	Jerry Falwell's 800 number.  He is said to have cost the Moral
	Majority $500,000 in phone bills.  Falwell switched to a 900
	number.  (Though he has another 800 number that I know.)
			<_Jym_>

    re .12
    I can tell you that the Jerry Falwell ministries do *not* fall in
    this category.  In fact, lately there has been a lot of fireworks
    locally because Rev. Falwell wants to get tax-free status on some
    property he has (a theatre of sorts)...  The last word is that he
    has threatened to leave Lynchburg and move his ministries and college
    to Atlanta.  The city is split.. Some say Lynchburg will suffer
    (I doubt it) others say lets begin a contribution for a one-way
    ticket for him to Atlanta.  I agree with the latter and am just
    amazed at his audacity.
    
    re .13
    Yes, there are various rosters.... a sort of healthy competition
    in paying for your place in heaven....  It's stuff like this that
    convinces me these type of evangelists are _very_ dangerous people.
    
    

 	    For some reason I've been tuning in to the 700 Club a
    couple of nights  a week. Somethin bout that Cheshire Cat Grin
    o his makes me upchuck! Now I kinda like Ben, the salt'n'pepper
    haired black side kick o his. There've been a few times when
    Jerry's been spouting off at the mouth and Ben kinda looked at
    him as if to say, "shut yer pie hole jerk!"
    	    A  good friend of mine's mom is a born again Christian
    and donates every available penny to the 700 Club, she must be
    a 100,000 Club member by now. Trouble is she lives one notch
    above abject poverty. Another thing is that all these folks
    talk like they just cum in from Lynchburg Virginia, Does that
    mean that everyone in Heaven talked with a drawl? :^)
    	   Well my friend's mom invited us to a Bible thumpin,
    money grabbin service where the minister rambled on about a
    friend of his makin a killing in the Floruda real estate 
    market and killing the competition, he went on to ask the
    congregation to sing praise to God's decision in givin this
    guy da land. 
    	   I just think these are bimbos who are shrewd business
    men and know how to make a fast buck offa other folks fears.
    NO amount'o'money's gonna guarantee me a two bedroom town
    house inside the pearly gates.
    
           Didn't Jesus chase the money lenders/changers outta
    the temple? Didn't Jesus say "Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's"
    
    Set Jerry Falwell="Ceasar" 
    
                                The Man's dangerous!!!
    
                                            Ray
    

    Seen on a bumper sticker:
    
    	"The Moral Majority is neither"
    

    Well, folks, I know you've been eagerly awaiting the outcome of
    Rev. Falwell's plea to become exempt in paying back taxes (several
    hundred thousand dollar's worth) and the issue of making some of
    the Moral Majority's properties tax exempt in the future.  The
    Lynchburg City Council voted 5-2 in favor of letting back taxes
    slide; i.e., wipe the slate clean at $0.00 balance, and agreed to
    exempt some of the properties from future taxation.  Lynchburg has
    heaved a sigh of relief - he won't be leaving after all.

    ...and the rest of heaved a sigh of relief - there's no chance
    he'll make OUR towns his home-base.
    
    --L

    re .19 
    
    Bob, you may tend not to welcome the group if you could witness
    "firsthand" the power he and the group have.  Would *love* to share
    some of the stuff that happens but with recent events in other
    conferences am a little "gun shy" to be graphic.
    
    You are correct, at least he doesn't pretend to be something he's
    not.... that doesn't make him any less dangerous.
    

    It seems to me that any industry that can bring the amount of cash
    that the Falwell Ministry or PTL have brought into their respective
    communities is going to have lots of power in those communities.
    PTL (Jim & Tammy Bakker) differs in a major way in that it is viewed
    neutrally or hostilely by a significant percentage of the local
    community, and are regularly defending themselves against charges
    of gross materialism in the local paper.

    Re .22
    
    A quote similar to that was published in the Charlotte Observer,
    and PTL went on the air with evidence that they were being persecuted
    and lied about.  Those fixtures were not SOLID gold, they were only
    gold plated.
    
    On the other hand, the folks that I have known that threw their
    money at Jerry/Jim/Tammy seem happy, and I can't recall talking
    to anyone who had been deprogrammed.  Maybe there is a personality
    that needs to give-give-give until they suffer-suffer-suffer, and
    these operations provide a safe outlet for that need.  Imagine what
    the United Funded campaign might become if all the PTL/Liberty folks
    had no outlet for their need to give.
    
    

    My perception of Rev. Falwell is not one I would like to have of
    a clergyman.  For example, he has to be one of the best dressed
    men I've ever had opportunity to see.  Sure, nothing wrong with
    taking pride in one's appearance but at who's expense?  His son
    drives a BMW which was a gift from Father.  I know this because
    about a year ago the son received a ticket on the car.  See, he
    decided to stop the BMW in the right-hand lane of Highway 460 East.
    The ticket was "ignored" in court....  Rev. Falwell apologized for
    the infraction and made some mention that since no actual accident
    was involved ....  sorta the same thing with the back taxes... 
    Nothing wrong with trying to talk one's self out of a ticket but
    not having to follow the law because of who one is just plain "ain't
    right".  In Lynchburg we still have "blue laws".  Those are laws
    which prevent the opening of certain types of stores on Sundays;
    i.e., Woodward&Lothrop, Thalhimers, department store type places.
    Any attempt to bring the issue of revoking those laws is blocked
    by the religious sector.  Why?  because if stores are open on Sunday,
    people may decide to shop instead of go to church and look at the
    potention loss of revenue. (my opinion and not necessarily those
    of anyone else...)

    I opened by saying Rev. Falwell, in particular, was not my perception
    of a clergyman.  I was brought up in the Greek Orthodox Faith. 
    Our priests don't have the material things that I see these other
    evangelists having.  They don't seek to change the masses of people
    out there.  There is, or at least there is the illusion, of a
    separation between Gov't and God.  Plus, in plain fundamental beliefs,
    I was not brought up to believe I'm going to Hell if I drink.  I
    don't believe alcohol is the root of all our problems, therefore,
    I have a problem with being seen as a sinner if I indulge in a glass
    of wine....  especially in light of the fact that our Holy Communion
    is made of wine.
    
    Can you say ramble?  Sorry, but sometimes I just get carried away
    by everyone who wants to "save me", convert me, or protect me from
    <whatever>.....
    

    I wanted to reply as the yonger man piont of viewe and I was invold
    with a women at eightteen she was thirtyfive we had a great
    relationship except the kids where not to thrilled so I decided
    to end the relation.. after deciding to upset the children...
    I still think if it was me and her we will have stayed together
    but I will never forget that she helped me change into an adult
    and she was my realfirst love <I will never forget her>
    Jimmy...