Conference 7.286::pet_birds

    Hi Jane!
    
    Welcome to PET_BIRDS! and Congradulations on your new baby!
    
    I have only seen my Grey regurgitate once when he swollowed
    half a peanut whole.  Thats just how it came back up.  My
    Cockatoo gets car sick on very long rides and will regurgitate
    in her car cage.  Other than that, I have never seen them
    regurgitate otherwise.  If your bird is throwing up his food
    that often, he can't be getting good nourishment.   Hopefully
    Jean will know more on this for you!  It does sound like 
    something that needs yours and a vets dedicated attention.
    
    As far as administering antibiotics:  I would recommend that
    you take your birds cage into a room (like a bathroom) that
    you can close the door in and have it completely dark.  Then
    when the room is dark, take your bird out with the towel or
    whatever and administer the oral antibiotics.  I know this is
    hard when its dark, but wait for a minute and your eyes will
    adjust and it gives your bird a minute to adjust.  A small
    pencil light is often helpfull also.  It does take two people
    as I'm sure you allready guessed.  I had to give 3 of my birds
    Ivermectin for parasites.  I was told this is a good thing
    to do to administer this medication in the event that the birds
    wouldn't tolerate it.  Fortunately the medicine was in a sugar
    base solution and they LOVED it.  
    
    Normally, most people recommend that during the birds first
    week in a new house, he be left more or less alone.  Not 
    taken out and played with alot etc..  Birds do need time
    to adjust and maybe this is what Chico is going through.  
    Stress is a big health factor in birds.
    
    I am truly hoping that your birds problem is just the stress
    of the new surroundings!  If your not seeing any improvment
    with the antibiotics soon then another trip to the vet is
    in order and maybe even a second opinion.  I hope Chico is
    just adapting!  He sounds like a wonderful addition to your
    family.  I hope this helps a litte and I know others in this
    file will give you some other good advice.  
    
    Good luck and please let us know how Chico is doing.  I am
    a worry wort and I am worried for him, so please let me
    know!  
    
    Karen

    Well we have made some progress.  Last night Jane gave Chico his
    medicine soaked up in a small piece of whole wheat bread.  He ate
    it right up.  Much less traumatic on us and on him.  The Vet seemed
    to think this was an o.k. idea as long as we didn't give him too
    much bread.  The size that seems to be the minimum that will accept
    the 1.2cc of Antibiotic is about 1" by 1�".  I don't think that
    this amount three times a day will cause any problems.
    
    As to the regurgitation issue - something Jane did not mention is
    that he never externally, uh, uh, you know, throws up.  He simply
    seems to bring things up for another pass through.  (A two pass
    assembler?)  He eats well from what I can determine and seems to 
    have normal droppings.  He also continues to be active and 
    talkative.
    
    Dave

    Jane,
    
    Could you give us an idea of what the situation is around the bird
    when he brings things up?  
    
    Is he excited?  Are you or your hubby in front of the cage talking
    to him?  I have a friends who's bird that does this because it
    has a crush on him.  Regergitation is a form of effection in his
    case. YUCK
    
    This has happend to me with my Grey.  She only does it when she
    is nervous.  i.e. when she goes to the vet.  
    
    Mark
    
    
    
    

    Well, I don't believe that it's affection in this case...  the times
    that he does it vary, but it's usually during or shortly after he
    has eaten.  Two nights ago he did it while out standing on the top
    of his cage which was about 5 or 10 minutes after he had downed
    the antibiotic soaked whole wheat bread.  Since we have been giving
    him the drugs he APPEARS to not be doing it as often BUT we also
    have had a pretty hectic schedule lately and haven't been with him
    as much as when we first obtained him.  As Dave noted, he doesn't
    throw up and get it out of his body, rather he brings it back up
    for another pass.  I've observed him bringing up carrots, apples,
    pellets and one time just a watery type mucus.  (ugh!!)  We're 
    still hoping that the antibiotics are going to do the trick, but
    we're also trying to cover all bases in case they don't. 
    
    The bread trick is working like a charm - Dave and my fingers are
    recovering nicely thank you.  Chico's latest fetish is bananas -
    since I like them too it's a good deal!  Through this entire ordeal
    his appetite had remained unchanged - he's willing to try nearly
    anything!!  In fact, there's been nothing that we've giving him
    that he has refused!!  All you parents out there..  wouldn't it
    be nice if it worked that way with children!!
    
    We greatly appreciate the help/interest and will keep all informed
    of our progress!!
    
    			Jane, Dave and Chico

    Hi Jane, Dave, Chico, Karen, Mark...um did I forget anyone???
    
    Well, Dave/Jane,
    
    My very first thought was the bird bonded already to you, and was
    going to feed you!  Which is, as Mark said, a show of affection!
    (If I were a bird, I'd never be loved!  YUK)  But....However, when
    birds regurgitate for us, they bring up what is called 'crop milk'
    not whole undigested foods.
    
    What kind of antibiotic is the bird on?  When the vet did the gram
    stain, was it positive? Did he do a fecal smear or a cloaca smear?
    What are you treating with the antibiotic?  I SINCERELY hope the
    vet didn't put the bird on meds, just 'incase'.
    
    There are a number of things that could be going on.  Since he is
    doing this primarily after eating...it sure sounds like avian anorexia!
    Do you hear any clicking while the bird breathes?  Does your vet
    really practice avian meds, or is he primarily a small animal practice
    with a 'desire' to know more about birds?
    
    What did he eat before you put him on Lefebvres pellets?  The wheat
    bread soaked in milk by the by is good for him.  A slice a day would
    not hurt him.  Did the vet say anything about the intestinal flora?
                              
    Since there are still unanswered questions...I would research what
    the bird ate before Christmas...he could be simply stressed by new
    environment and new food program...but, anorexia should not be ruled
    out yet...If your vet does not truly practice avian meds, please
    find one that does.  Believe me, small animal medicine is very
    different from avian.  
    
    Blood chemistries are different, intestinal bacteria is altered,
    heart beat sounds like a trip hammer, not lub dub...
    
    I am certainly anxious to read your responses!
    
    Jean Hutchins
    (FOA)  and_still_on_yet_another_borrowed_account!  8^}
    
    

    For starters, the antibiotic in question is Chloromycetin Palmitate.
    As I stated earlier, the stain test on the regurgitated material
    was negative BUT the vet questioned the validity of the test since
    the specimen had been in 'the box' (like in the bag??) for quite
    some time and was drying out.  
    
    As far as food goes, he used to be on something called Omni Pellets
    or Parrot-like I believe.  
    
    The Vet is an avian-only practitioner and is also a bird breeder.
    He seems to know what he is doing.  The Anitbiotic is somewhat of
    a guess on the Vet's part.  His next step would be a crop sample
    taken by a tube.  Doesn't seem like it would be much fun for Chico
    or us.  Since he seems healthy and active the antibiotics were the
    Vet's conserative approach to resolving the problem.  At this point,
    it seems to be helping.  We were told that he should go back in
    5 days if there is no improvement.
    
    Dave & Jane

    

    If Chico were indeed anorexic wouldn't 'cha think he would get rid
    of the food he brings up rather than eating it again??

    Yeah!  Wouldn'cha think.....Yes, anorexia as we know it.  But birds
    may eat, and eat well, then vomit up all the food.  sometimes they
    eat it again...
    
    Who is the vet?  In most cases, you can't beat a vet that raises
    birds with a stick!  8^}.  It's just after what I've seen and learned
    from practice (vet. technician) that drugs should only be used after
    a diagnosis is made.  there are lots of reasons for that.  You can
    try things on cats and dogs, but not necessarily with birds.  Chloro
    is great stuff though...but I've never seen it given until a diagnosis
    was made.
    
    Please, tell me more!  I'm anxious to know and learn too!!!
    
    Jean H.
    Who-is-leaving-again-today----back-in-a-week-I-hope!
    

    I am a proponent of LaFeber's pellets.  My Hahn's loves them, and they
    constitute about 80% of her diet.  She also eats monkey chow, fruit,
    and the occasional veggies.  In fact, we tried other pellets, and of
    course, she chose the expensive LaFeber's pellets instead.  The breeder
    I got her from uses Avian Friends by Purina, but she will not eat them.
    (I got her at 4 weeks, so she never had any before I brought her home,
    just her parents - and she egg raised, then foster raised for 2
    additional weeks)
    
    Ed
    

    Chico's vet is Dr. McKinley of Neshanic Station, NJ.  I've been
    very happy with his timeliness in returning my calls as well as
    his willingness to spend as much time as necessary talking to me
    about whatever it is I have called about.  To date Chico is progressing
    very well.  We'll keep all informed as to his prognosis!!
    
    			Jane
    
    As an aside, Dr. McKinley did NOT suggest Purina pellets for birds.
    He said that he or a friend of his had done some research and had
    found that they soaked up an abnormally high amount of water and
    expanded when they did...  not a desirable thing to have happening
    in ones' birds' stomach...
    

    I spoke with Jean yesterday....she asked me to pass this on since
    she does not have access to an account right now....
    
    She did some research and found out that it is not uncommon for
    young birds to regurgitate for the people they are bonded to.  So,
    perhaps Chico's behavior was perfectly "normal".
    

    My 6 week old budgie will aften bring food back up from his crop
    to rechew it. Mostly it is seeds that he didn't hull the first time.
    I expect he will stop when he learns not to gorge himself any more.
    
    Doug

    Figured I would update everyone on Chico's condition.  
    
    Chico has all but stopped regurgitating.  In looking back at all
    of the replies enterred and understanding Chico much better than
    when I first wrote this note I am not totally convinced that Chico's
    'problem' was anything more than acclimation.  He still occasionally
    regurgitates but it tends to be mostly  when I have him all riled
    up talking and whistling.  He no longer regurgitates when he is
    eating.  I guess we'll never know if it really was acclimation or
    really a crop problem since we did give him the full term of
    antibiotics....and he's none the worse for wear from them at least
    that I can tell...
    
    Soooooo, thanks for all the help!!  Chico sezs thanks too !!
    
    		Jane