Conference noted::sf

    re: .0
    
    I'm not sure I agree.  Though I haven't read that many S&S fantasies,
    the few that I have read seem to be poor imitations of Tolkien's "Lord
    Of The Rings" and that comes closer in similarity to Wagner's opera the
    "Ring Of Nibelung."  
    
    As for Turks being perfect villains, I recall some of the Europeans
    weren't exactly nice guys either.  I heard that during the Crusades,
    the so-called "Christians"(and I use the term lightly) committed some
    horrible atrocities.  They burned, raped, pillaged and tortured all in
    the name of God.

    For a one-word explanation of why fantasy is so heavy with S&S and why
    S&S is so heavy with specifically medieval coloring, the word is
    "Arthur."  (For a second word, you could add "Charlemagne.")
    
    Much modern fantasy traces back to the romances and romantic fantasies
    of the 19th century.  These, in turn, were reacting against the 18th
    century and Enlightenment literatures, and went looking for the magical,
    emotional, and mysterious.  Naturally enough, they decided to champion
    the period their predecessors vilified, the Middle Ages.  There, the
    adventure tales are dominated by the original Swords and Sorcery, and,
    yes, colored by contemporary problems like Moslem invasions and the
    crusades.  (Notice how modern fantasies are colored by problems like
    environmental decay.)
    
    By the way, the lack of a university system in fantasy is not
    particularly true to the High Middle Ages, which start around 1200, the
    time of .0.  By then the medieval/modern university system was starting
    and the Scholastics were coming to dominate the academic scene.
    
    The lack of an analog for the Church is interesting.  An organized
    church is a quintessential example, in many modern minds, of Authority,
    of the Establishment, pushing things like Duty, Sin and Guilt (in
    initial caps, preferably in red ink).  Fantasy literature tends to be
    written in a spirit of rebellion, however modified and disguised, and
    it is much easier and more satisfying to write of rebellion against an
    organized religion than to try and enlist it among the Good Guys.  The
    Bad Guys, as .0 points out, are generally tyrants, not anarchists or
    raiding barbarians.
    
    Katherine Kurtz's Deryni series is a notable exception, but she has her
    conflict going on within the church.
    
    Also, there is marketing.  Religion is such a volatile topic, you'll
    offend fewer readers if you just skirt the issue.  Oddly enough, the
    divine can be treated more freely, probably because it stays at a 
    comfortably remote distance from the reader's actual life.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    The second "S" of S&S is sorcery, and you have to go back a way before
    you find literary traditions that accept magic as a plausible. Even
    Shakespeare was largely free of magic, with notable the notable
    exception being Prospero in The Tempest. I think that even in
    Elizabethean times there wasn't much of a stomach for magicians.
    Perhaps that is why Celtic and Norse backdrops are so popular - the
    cultural heritage is ripe with magical possibilities. Also, Indian/
    Mexican folklore has magical possibilities, and Creole voodoo
    traditions. All three of these have been extensively mined for story
    ideas.
    
    It's just hard to put sorcery in other backdrops - the roaring twenties
    and prohibition days were not ripe with spiritual activism. The wild
    west had few enchanting gunslingers, and the Spanish Inquisition was
    only marginally involved with witchcraft.
    
    Feel free to prove me wrong by writing one, but S&S seems to function
    best in backdrops which were already rich in spiritual mythology.
    

    
>    It's just hard to put sorcery in other backdrops - the roaring twenties
>    and prohibition days were not ripe with spiritual activism. The wild
>    west had few enchanting gunslingers, and the Spanish Inquisition was
>    only marginally involved with witchcraft.
>    
>    Feel free to prove me wrong by writing one, but S&S seems to function
>    best in backdrops which were already rich in spiritual mythology.
    
    	Well one example that kinda fits and kinda doesn't fit (I'm not
    sure what you would call it) into the wild west would be Stephen Kings
    Gunslinger novels (2) The Darktower and The Drawing of the Three.
    
    				Jim

    re: .2
    
    The reasons for the missing Church in S&S sound just right: an
    overarching authority is an unpleasant concept to modern writers,
    and a touchy one to boot.  Incidentally, if you're interested in
    an SF writer's slant on medieval theology, you can't do better
    than "Doctor Mirabilis" by James Blish.  It's a non-SF novel about
    Roger Bacon, the great 13th century philosopher/scientist/wizard. 
    Blish adds to Bacon's legend by crediting him with a great 
    discovery, an invention that appears to him in a dream and saves
    Europe. Bacon came to a bad end, but the novel's ending is moving
    and profound.
    
    re: .3 - magic can only be portrayed in times sympathetic to it
    
    That doesn't restrict one much!  Just about every culture except ours
    believed in some kind of supernatural occurences.  Ghosts in
    China, animist spirits in Africa, yogic powers in India; you can
    find magic in almost any period and place.  If you want to set
    things in the West in recent centuries, just create an alternate
    history where magic works, as did Card in "Seventh Son", or
    Randall Garrett in the Lord D'Arcy stories.  
    
    /jlr

    .4 - I confess I haven't read these. I will.
    .6 - You're right - Seventh Son by OS Card is a good example. But note
    that it's set in a Christian motif (7th son of a 7th son is a mythos
    of Biblical origin, after all) and thus, is in a realm sympathetic
    to supernatural events - particularly the nineteenth century Bible
    Belt. I have to give Card a lot of credit for daring and originality,
    though - most writers are reluctant to play with the Christian mythos,
    with the only other exceptions that come to mind are Steven K.Z. Brust
    and to a lesser extent, Roger Zelazny. This is sensitive turf, and I
    can see why authors steer clear of it.
    
    Hmmm. Sounds like an opportunity, doesn't it?
    
    - M
    

    Re .6
    
    The theme of 7 as a significant number is not terribly Biblical, and I
    can't recall anything about 7th sons in the Bible at all.  7 was a
    special number throughout the ancient eastern Mediterranean, and 
    consequently became special to all cultures inheriting from that one. 
    7s show up in the Bible, but also in ancient Babylon, Greece, Rome,
    etc.  Probably it all traces back to the seven planets of ancient
    Mesopotamian astronomy.
    
    Particular real-world religions may not appear often in F&SF, but
    theology and religion in general certainly do.  Let's see, there's:
    
    Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series, in which God and
    the Devil appear as the incarnations of good and evil.
    
    Michael Moorcock's "The Warhound and the World's Pain," in which Satan
    sends a mercenary captain to seek the Holy Grail so that he (Satan) can
    get back in touch with God to apologise.  (That's even specifically
    Christian.)
    
    Micahel Moorcock's much older "Behold the Man," an SF time-travel story
    with a completely blasphemous treatment of the life of Christ.
    
    James Blish's "Black Easter" and "The Day After Judgement," a very
    upsetting picture of Armageddon, also specifically Christian.
    
    Blish's "A Case of Conscience," involving a Jesuit in a subtle
    theological snare involving an alien race.
    
    Katherine Kurtz's prolific Deryni series, drenched in medieval
    ecclesiology.
    
    "To Reign In Hell" (I think; I've totally forgotten the author), about
    the politics behind the creation of the universe.
    
    The "[Mumble] in Hell" series, which I haven't read but appears to be a
    series of novels about various spectacular people in a Christian-style
    (or Christian-style-derived) Hell.
    
    Niven and Pournelle's "Inferno," based on Dante's "Inferno."
    
    P. C. Hodgell's "Godstalk" and sequel (we still awaiting the
    completing of a trilogy) about the Kencyrath, a Chosen Race like the
    Israelites, though they rather more closely resemble half-elven ninjas.
    
    
    That's a very idiosyncratic sample, taken over about 20 years, but I
    think it shows that playing with theistic and specifically Christian
    ideas is certainly possible in SF, even if it isn't as common as, say,
    aliens or time travel.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

There's also the "Warlock in Spite of Himself" which has the Catholic church in
a big way as part of the story. liesl

    I recall that in Frank Herbert's "Dune", the Bene Gesserit sisterhood
    had similarities to Roman Catholic nuns.  There is also mention of a
    book called "The Orange Catholic Bible" but I don't recall what it was
    exactly.

    Re .9
    
    The Orange Catholic Bible was an ecclectice ("catholic" in the sense of
    universal") collection of religious literature, originally bound in
    orange, that became the principle scripture of the religion of the Dune
    universe.  This religion is never spelled out in much detail, but
    certainly the terminology is designed to make Roman Catholic
    resonnances in the reader's mind.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    re: .10
    
    Earl,
    	I read "Dune" many years ago so I forget exact details but it
    seemed to me that many of the religious references came closer to
    Moslem, Arabic or Middle Eastern culture.  This was probably because of
    the desert nature on the planet "Dune".  The Fremen of Dune sounded
    seemed a lot like the Bedouine tribes in North Africa.  Things like 
    the "Orange Catholic Bible" which has Christian connotations were slight. 
    
    ktlam...

    Re .11
    
    It's been a long time since I read "Dune," either, but I certainly
    recall the Moslem elements, especially around the Fremen.  In fact,
    certain items dropped in the appendices and pseudo-references at the
    beginnings of chapters made it fairly clear that the Fremen, at least,
    are descended from bedouins who either were exiled to Arrakis or fled
    to Arrakis generations before.
    
    What I can remember of the theological content of the (unnamed)
    galactic religion is, however, classic "New Age" 30 years before its
    time.  It is syncretistic (all the Christian, Moslem, Hindu, and
    Buddhist bits included in the Orange Catholic Bible); it is feminist
    (the Reverend Mothers, who were apparently not just a feature of the
    Bene Gesserit); it is mystical (the various mystical experiences,
    mostly induced by melange spice); it is "esper-centric" (the
    precognitive powers of Guildsmen and Paul that are the center of the
    plot).
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    re:  .2
    
    I believe you're right about Arthur.  Myself and a group of three
    friends avidly search out any book about the times of Arthur, and
    share them back and forth.  MZB's "Mists of Avalon" is a personal
    favorite, but there are at least half a dozen books in recent years
    who write from Guenivere's viewpoint.  Picked up Mallory's the
    "morte d'Arthur" recently and waded through it - found I prefer
    my fiction more suitably digested, such as W.B. White or Mary
    Stewart.  We're seeing more and more Merlin books, too.  Recommend
    Tolstoi's latest, although it's a bit hard to get into.
    
    Are these fantasy?  Sure.  But once you get the history part
    down, it's fascinating to see how many variations of the story
    there are.  For example, Knealley's (sp?) latest is volume 1
    of a trilogy on Arthur (called "The Hawk's Gray Feather"), set
    in her SF worlds of the Keltiad, established in her earlier
    trilogy.
    
    Guess the point I'm making is that medieval sells, and there
    are lots of us who look forward to any new SF set in that time.
    
    Laura

re: .12

Wasn't the Orange Catholic Bible a product of the "Butlerian Jihad"
in _Dune_?  I don't recall any explanation of who Butler was (other than
an obvious reference to Herbert's favorite author, Samuel Butler), but
the BJ was a neo-Luddite revolt against computers and AI (Herbert's
prescient response to the later cyber-punk genre, perhaps? ;-)).

The best match-up with the "Turks vs. the west" theory (in fantasy) is
probably John Ford's _The Dragon Waiting_, where various fictional
characters help Richard III take on the Byzantine Empire in an alternate
timestream where Christianity never catches on.  Good read.
								paul

    The best match up is "Drawing of the Dark" by ??? (he did "The Anibus
    Gates" too).  It concerns the Turks siege of Vienna.

    Re: .7
    
    'To Reign in Hell' is SKZ Brust, mentioned in .6.
    
    I had forgotten Blish, which is stupid of me, since I'm currently
    reading his "Devil's Day", which I'll review in a little bit. 
    And I'll dig out the 7th son lineage from the Old Testament - I really
    can't believe my memory these days.
    
    - M