Conference noted::sf

    I'm not really much of a one for fantasy, but I'd say that this
    is just a case of the publishers feeding the market the junk food
    that it's craving. Almost 10 years ago, the fantasy genre really
    started to make it big, and since then, author after author, editor
    after editor, publisher after publisher has been cranking it out
    to feed the demand. The more fantasy that gets published, the more
    bad fantasy gets published. The percentage is probably no higher
    than it was 20 years ago, it's jsut that each percentage point
    represents a larger number of books.
    
    --- jerry

Who were the authors quoted?  Should we no longer trust their judgement?
/jlr

    Re .0
    
    Just because you like a given author, it doesn't follow that you
    like the same books that author does.  You found the characterization
    dreadful, yet it was endorsed by an author you like.  It may be
    that that author values inventiveness or pacing more than
    characterization, yet is able to characterize well enough, yea better
    than the author you hate.
    
    Also, publishers are perfectly capable of plucking one favorable
    comment out of a generally negative review and turning it into a
    laudatory blurb.
    
    I agree with Jerry; I doubt the percentage of quality fantasy is
    going down.  If it is, that may be because of its popularity, which
    attracts people with no love of the genre, but know a big market
    when they see it.
    
    Don't judge a book by its cover blurbs.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

 re: .2

i don't know if i can remember all the authors involved, but Marion
Zimmer Bradley, Andre Norton, Evangeline Walton and Anne McCaffrey (sp?)
are some of them; i happen to like what i've read by the first three
mentioned...don't know much about the last except i believe she's won
a Nebula or Hugo or something...

 re: .3

yes, i guess there isn't necessarily any correlation between a writer's
talent and his/her tastes; maybe part of the problem also is the ongoing
inflation/devaluation of the English/American language--everything is
just so AWESOME nowadays that it's hard to believe that people didn't
used to die of boredom in the old days; every other adjective seems to
be a superlative now, so it's no wonder that the abysmal can claim to be
good and the mediocre can claim to be "one of the year's best" (i wonder
if this is related to the devaluation of grades in our schools, where
you can get a B+ for just showing up and not falling face-first into the
mashed potatoes during lunch :-))

    Actually, advertizing has always inflated the language into
    valuelessness.  (And blurbs are advertizing.  So are book reviews,
    sometimes.)  It isn't a modern phenomenon.  Just look at an old
    Barnum and Bailey poster.  ("Colosal! Stupendous!")  People get
    numb to one set of superlatives, so the forces of slang and Mad
    Ave select a new set.  
                 
    Earl Wajenberg

    Perhaps an alternative suggestion is that the population from which
    to draw good fiction has been decreased as a result of an increase
    in demand. I seem to recall somewhat of a renaissance of SF about
    1979-1982, and noticed that the quality of subsequent work by authors
    that I appreciated dropped afterwards. Corroboration of this viewpoint
    might be seen in the DelRey collection (which I have a good deal
    of respect for). Recent entries include re-issues of older works by 
    authors such as Murray Leinster, which is something I hadn't noticed
    when the series originally began.
    
    Regards,
    Andy Hagel 

    I'm afraid I didn't follow that.  How would an increase in demand
    cause the population of good fantasy authors to shrink?  Shrink
    in proportion to the demand?  Or do you mean the authors would start
    cranking out the stuff with less care because of the increased demand?
    Or something else?
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Back to the basic question --
    
    Yes, Fantasy is not what it was.  The reasons are several and include:
    
    "Fantasy" nowadays tends to mean "Heroic Fantasy" -- that is, imitation
    Conans.  This is both unimaginative and, ultimately, boring.  Howard
    was, in my opinion, a good nmatural writer who poured his soul into
    Conan; later writers don't have that dedicattion.
    
    I read one fantasy where the plotting was so transparent (the hero
    was told that he would have to encounter hazards A, B, C , ...,
    N along the way, and then he did so just like a straight-line program
    with no element of surprise) that it was a total turn-off. 
    
    2) The market demands a higher percentage of fantasies, so a lot
    of salable schlock is written.  There are other areas of literature
    where you'll find this phenomenon; check used bookstores to see
    what I mean. 
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Similarly, movie SF is dominated by special effects, often at the
    expense of acting, plotting, or any directorial skill but pacing
    (and sometimes not even pacing).  All this because of Star Wars.
    
    Nonetheless, there are some *good* SFX movies out, and some sf movies
    without a lot of SFX.  "Back to the Future" for instance, unless
    you want to count all the '50's staging as special effects.
    
    Similarly, there is fantasy wheat among the heroic tares.  I'd cite
    R. A. MacAvoy as a good example.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

Sturgeon's Law:  90% of everything is crap.
Powers' Lemma:   plus or minus 5%

If only one in ten of anything is worth reading (seeing, listening to, 
whatever) then an increase in the crap level from only 90 to 95 per cent 
makes it twice as hard to wade through the muck to find the good ones.
Yes, if demand increases supply usually increases, and quality control
often suffers, and a small decrease in QC is amplified in the final
worthwhile output.

- tom]

    Yes it is.
    
    Just slip into your root celler & dust off a Worlds of Fantasy,
    read it and compare it to what's on the shelves today.  (WoF would
    probably make it now!)  All I found on the shelves in the '60s were
    Ballantine Adult Fantasies (I know there were more, but not in a
    small Vermont town) and Tolkien.  e.g., P. Anthony has more Fantasy 
    on the shelves right now than I *bought* back then.  (Last time
    in the bookstore I counted 32 F & SF titles!)
    
    A good observation about Howard, his helpers done O.K. but were
    definitely 2nd fiddle.  (And let us not forget Talbot Mundy, a?)
    
    Because of the Power-Sturgeon Combination I've pretty much gotten
    away from reading Fantasy in general (Current Events are better!
    :-).)  Also find myself unwilling to take a chance on a new author
    without rave reviews from fellow readers.  Shoulda stayed in the
    closet.
    
    						Don
     

re: .11
>    Also find myself unwilling to take a chance on a new author
>    without rave reviews from fellow readers.  Shoulda stayed in the
     
can't exactly rave yet, but the best new author of fantasy i've read
in the past few years is a fellow named Charles deLint: books include
"Riddle of the Wren", "Moonheart" and "Mulengro"...i would say right
now that he's at about the point Ursula LeGuin was when she was doing
"City of Illusions" (finding a strong voice but still waiting for a
"Left Hand of Darkness"-story to tell with it)

    I have to jump in here to disagree with .0 about the "SUMMER TREE",
I found it to be quite good. I also thought that the books main strength
were it's characters, (which were not cardboard at all). 
    I do agree in general that the quality of fantasy novels seems to be
on the decline, of course "The Sword of Sha-na-na" has been out for quite
a while.
        Ken cobb

    Amplifying ...
    
    If you haven't read them, I'd suggest the following fantasies:
    
    _The Blue Star_ by Fletcher Pratt
    _The Stray Lamb_ by Thorne Smith
    _the Mislaid Charm_ by Alexander Philipps (sp?)
    
    All written before 1950, all good, _none_ heroic fantasy.
    
    Compare them with the current crop, and the base-note question becomes
    obvious.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

      Granted I'm not the most discriminating reader in the world. 
    (But at least I had the good sense to fling the sword of Shanana
    against the wall and not read the rest....)  But I liked the Riftwar
    Saga.  It's certainly not great literature, but I found it a good
    enough read that I was looking forward to the last book.
    
    	Re:Who's Anne MacCaffrey?  If you're serious... (Not being snotty
    I just thought that all Norton lovers found MacCaffrey sooner or later.)
    Try her Crystal Singer and its sequel Killishandra (Science Fiction)
    and her Dragonriders of Pern Series (Of course I can't remember
    the individal 3 titles) and Dragonsong, Dragonsinger, and Dragondrums
    that are set in Pern at the same time as the others but from a
    different viewpoint.  I think MacCaffrey at her best is as good
    if not better than Norton at her best.  (Course what do I know?
    I liked the Riftwar Saga.  
    
        To the original question, as others have said, I don't think
    the percentage of good stuff has declined, merely the volume of
    bad stuff has increased.  
    
    	I find I'm pretty lucky at picking ones that I at least enjoy.
    I rarely don't finish them.  I don't mind a light read every now
    and then especially when the work doesn't take itself too seriously.
    I find the onesI tend to not finish are those that are pretentious.
    I couldn't really tell you how I pick'em.  Partly cover blurb, partly
    kudos from other authors, partly LOCUS reviews, partly knowledge
    of previous works, partly reading the first page to get a feel for
    the authors style....  I haven't brought home too many real turkeys.
        
    tlh
    

    Hi, I'm new to this conference, and I've been reading this topic
    with interest, since I have, at times had the same complaints
    many of you have had.
    
    My reading depends a lot on the other factors in my life at the
    time (i.e. whether I want something I can sink my teeth into, or
    some light esacpist fair).  However, I like whatever I read to be
    fairly well written.
    
    A trilogy by Barbara Hambly (one title "The Walls of Air" comes
    to mind) really caught my fancy.  In fact my nickname came from
    one of her characters whose name I copped for a marathon D&D game.
    That trilogy had what I call a "hook", in that it's idea was, to
    me, fresh and new, not just some re-packaged garbage.
    
    I've spent enough money on what I hoped was good fantasy, only to
    be disappointed halfway in, so now I spend more time in the store,
    carefully browsing, and I'd say I've done pretty well lately.
    (Spending less money, reading good books....)
    
    I still have never found a fantasy that left me quite as excited
    as my first reading of Lord of the Rings.....
    
    frank

Powers' other Lemma:  Only the strong survive.

Yes, bad stuff outnumbers good stuff, and the ratio may be getting worse,
but historical perspective must be fair.  In Steve's reply (.14)
he points out some instances where the strong have survived, at least 
in his library.  What was the proportion of BAD books (or movies, or
music, or baseball players, or whatever) from the same period?
It only takes a few survivors to make an era look great.

- tom powers]

    Re: .14
    Very well, Mr. Kallis.  I will restart The Stray Lamb (got as far
    as the Horse) and get back to you.  Do you also reccommend the other
    2 in the 3-Decker?
    
    							Don

    re .18:
    
    I'd reccommend virtually _all_ Thorne Smoth except _The Passionate
    Witch_, _The Bishop's Jaegers_, and the Topper series.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    re: 0, 13
    I must agree with reply 13, I liked _The Summer Tree_.  A lot.
    Am eagerly awaiting the sequel.  I hope reply 0 didn't mean 
    _The Copper Crown_ in lieu of _The Copper Throne_.  Another book
    I enjoyed immensely, and awaiting the sequel.
    
    I do think there's a lot of junk out there too.  I think it's harder
    to weed out a good SF/Fantasy book, than any other type.  But ,
    it's fun trying most of the time.
    
    Personal favs- the Pern series in entirety and The Lord of the Rings
    series.
    
    Theresa

    Re: _The Summer Tree_
    
    I *loved* that book.  Furthermore, I loved the whole trilogy.  I
    thought the character development was excellent.  All three books of
    _The Fionavar Tapestry_ have been published in hardcover.  They are: 
    
    (Of course) _The Summer Tree_
    		_The Wandering Fire_
    		_The Darkest Road_
    
    Of these, I believe the first two are out in paperback.  As far as the
    original topic goes, yes I think good fantasy is harder to come by
    these days.  Of what I've read recently, I liked _The Belgariad_ by
    David Eddings and _The Fionavar Tapestry_ the best. 
    
    Wook

    I would second Wook on these books - they are the kind of book
    that you consume in one gulp.
    Bonnie

    Just checked in to this confreence, and would like to add my 2 cents
    to this old conversation.
    
    I think there's plenty of good fantasy out there these days.  Some
    of my favorites have already been mentioned (Eddings and Hambly).
    And for that matter, I really enjoyed the Riftwar Saga.  Maybe it's
    more a matter of what you're looking for in fantasy literature,
    but I can handle shallow or faceless characters sometimes, if the
    story's good.  I thought that Feist dragged a little in the second
    book, but the third book picked up quite nicely and I finished the
    novel wishing there were a fourth book.  Sure the characters were
    predictable and in some cases not well developed, but I'd characterize
    it kind of like the movie "RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK".  Pure escapist
    entertainment.  That's what some of us read fantasy novels for,
    after all.
    
    I also enjoyed Julian May's Pliocene Saga.  This one kinda falls in
    between fantasy and sci fi, but I see it more as fantasy.
    
    But I agree that fantasy's not as good as it used to be.  That's because
    every fantasy novel that gets written is compared to Tolkien's classic.
    And NO writer these days is going to take 17 years to develop his/her
    story.  The only one I know of that even comes close is Marion Zimmer
    Bradley, and I don't think she's doing Darkover books anymore.
    
    Anyway, the point is that there's admittedly a lot schlock fantasy
    novels in print these days.  But there's some gems in among the
    gravel too.  It's just a matter of what your taste and mood is.
    
    			... Bob
    

    Re .23:
    
    >But I agree that fantasy's not as good as it used to be.  That's because
    >every fantasy novel that gets written is compared to Tolkien's classic.
     
    But there were far better written by people who ground them out
    like sausages.  Some of A. Merritt's stuff -- _Dwellers in the Mirage_
    _Face in the Abyss_, and even _The Moon Pool_ are all good stuff,
    better than a lot of schlock that's being printed these days.
    
    Some of the better fantasies are older ones, or obscure, or both.
    Alas, the come-into-it-lately reader doesn't even necessarily know
    that a, say, _Blue Star_ exists, in the epic fantasy mode, or a
    _Mislaid Charm_ exists, at a more lighthearted level.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

>    But there were far better written by people who ground them out
>    like sausages.  Some of A. Merritt's stuff -- _Dwellers in the Mirage_
>    _Face in the Abyss_, and even _The Moon Pool_ are all good stuff,

Definitely good stories.

>    Some of the better fantasies are older ones, or obscure, or both.

Perhaps, because what was fantasy at one time has become fact (sort of).
Another part may be the fact that the older stories were written by authors
that did NOT have a large collection of stories to build on.  It seems that
the fantasy was really THEIR fantasy put on paper and you got to share in
it.  With a LARGE base of such stories behind you, I think it would be
difficult to be 'creative' and 'inventive'.  Someone else's fantasy has
affected the new author and so you get some 'parroting'.  An example of
this would be the Elfstones of Shannara books, which seemed to me to be TOO
close to LoTR.

-Joe

    re .25
    
    An amen to that! Especially the Elfstones which are a second rate
    LOTR ripoff.  I like to refering to the Elfstone books as the Hot
    Rocks of Sha-Na-Na by Terry O'PotBoyle (8>-)).
    

    Re. 24
    
    You're right, some of the better stories are older and obscure.
    One of my favorites was _The Worm Auroboros_ by E.R. Eddison.  I've
    never seen it in print, though, except for a beat-up old copy I
    found at a yard sale.  This is the problem; where do you find these
    old books?
    
    I really don't consider myself a newcomer to the world of fantasy
    novels, but I've never heard of _Blue Star_ or _Mislaid Charm_.
    Who wrote them?  If they're obtainable I'd really like to read them.
    
    ... Bob
    

    re:.27
    
    Hunh? THE WORM OUROBORUS --- along with Eddison's Zimiamvian
    Trilogy (MISTRESS OF MISTRESSES, A FISH DINNER IN MEMISON, and
    THE MEZENTIAN GATE) had *scads* of printings in paperback from
    Ballantine Books from the late 60's throughout the 70's. They
    may even still be in print. You should be able to find them in
    any well-stocked used_bookstore.
    
    THE BLUE STAR is by Fletcher Pratt, sometime collaborator of
    L. Sprague de Camp. I believe it recently came back into print,
    but I'm not positive. The Ballantine/Del Rey edition for the
    last 10 years has a *really* nice Darrell Sweet cover, too.
    
    THE MISLAID CHARM is by Alexander Philips. Unfortunately, it
    hasn't (to my knowledge) been in print in the US since the late
    40's.
    
    --- jerry

    Re .27, .28:
    
    >THE MISLAID CHARM is by Alexander Philips. Unfortunately, it
    >hasn't (to my knowledge) been in print in the US since the late
    >40's.
     
    True.  It happens that I obtained an original edition in the 1950s;
    it's a very cute story and well worth reading.  The basic idea is
    that a miracle-working charm that was stolen from one group of little
    people was "concealed" by temporarily placing it within a weriter
    who had just sold his first story (and without his knowledge), leading
    to his temporary ability to produce minor miracles.  For the current
    science_fiction/fantasy crowd, it'd be a natural.  It's short enough
    to be included in a collection.
    
    Also out of print, but occasionally findable is _From Unknown Worlds_,
    a collection of good fantasy stories from the late lamented publication
    of that name, which was also edited by John W. Campbell, Jr.  It
    was relkeased in the United States as an oversized softcover, with
    an Edd Cartier cover; it was published in the U.K. (less one chilling
    [and that's also a pun] Henry Kuttner story) as a slim hardcover;
    it might still be findable in some of the more obscure
    used-book_stores, and is well worth picking up, if for nothing but
    the lead story ("The Enchanted Weekend").  I happen to have the
    U.K. version, which John Campbell gave me when I visited him once,
    though he didn't autograph it (we were busy discussing psionics
    at the time); I really treasure it.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Boys and Girls, this is your friendly neighborhood librarian talking,
    here to remind you that we are here to serve, and one of the things
    we do best is find books/authors/stories for loan.  (Sometimes we
    can even locate bookstores, but that's a bit far afield for some
    of us.)  I speak, here, for the public librarians in your towns
    as well as DEC librarians.  Obviously at work our help must be somewhat
    limited, but we can, for example, check Books in Print for currently
    available titles (Pratt's THE BLUE STAR, for example, is still
    available from Ballantine for $2.50, but THE MISLAID CHARM is not
    listed as "in print" at this time).  We can also refer you to a
    book called the Directory of Special Libraries, which describes
    special libraries and special collections within libraries...a good
    place to find out who has the best collection of Pratt or Heroic
    Fantasy or Folklore or Speculative Fiction or whatever...to visit
    or to find out about inter-library loans.  
    
    For quick checks of Books in Print (BIP), you can contact me at
    UCOUNT::BAILEY, and I will watch this conference, too.
    
    (By the way, I too loved THE SUMMER TREE  and sequel.  Tastes do
    vary, but "Sha-Na-Na" has value only as a Cliff notes to Tolkien
    for lazy readers...that's the stuff to be warned against!)

    Re .30:
    
    Yes, but ...
    
    There are three problems here:
    
    1) Comparing contemporary fantasy to earlier fantasy.  That might
       entail occassionally mentioning an out-of-print book.  Although
       _The Mislaid Charm_ is virtuaslly unfindable, perhaps awareness
       of its existence over a wider audience will enable someone to
       trace  Lex Philipps or his estate so it could be reissued as
       a paperback.  Surely, there are enough copies of various Mer-
       ritt books for people to read those.
    
    2) Suppose I told you (correctly) that one of the libraries at Columbia
       University had an original of _The Circus of Dr. Lao_, complete
       with the Artzybasheff illustrations.  It has; I've even seen
       it and admired the pictures.  _That_ one's long out of print,
       but isn't the information of interest in this Conference?
    
    3) How can you possibly compare things when you have a very narrow
       frame of reference?
    
    Agreed; it's difficult for me to discuss the plot structure and
    characterizations of those in _The Mislaid Charm_ with someone who's
    never read the story (saying, for instance that Dorothy was decades
    ahead of her time would have to be taken on faith).  But look at
    the reverse:  suppose someone goes into an old used bookstore and
    just _happens_ upon a very slim and slightly oversized volume with
    a green-colored dust jacket and _didn't_ know about _The Mislaid
    Chartm_?  He or she would be missing a great read!
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    re:.31
    
    I don't see how what you're saying contradicts what .30 is
    saying. He's mentioning how someone might be able to borrow a
    copy of something that one cannot find. Unless you really
    *want* a copy for your collection, it's always easier to try
    to find a copy to read from a library.
    
    (By the way, it just so happens that I found a copy of that CIRCUS
    OF DR. LAO with the Artzybasheff illustrations a couple of months
    ago. I wasn't even particularly looking for it, either.)
    
    --- jerry

    Re .32:
    
    >(By the way, it just so happens that I found a copy of that CIRCUS
    >OF DR. LAO with the Artzybasheff illustrations a couple of months
    >ago. I wasn't even particularly looking for it, either.)
     
    
    Hmm.  Was it a first edition?
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    re:.33
    
    Actually, no. It was the second edition from the mid-40's.
    Still, beggars can't be choosers.
    
    --- jerry

    Injecting a bit of new life into an old topic, but...
    
    Not being quite as versed in the uh, past, of fantasy as some of
    the previous noters are (read: I haven't been reading it all that
    long and definitely have not read old stuff), my criteria for fantasy
    (or even science fiction) being what it used to be is that when
    I go to a bookstore, I tend to have a VERY hard time finding something
    on the shelves that looks the least bit intriguing to buy.  It really
    takes something special to make me pick up a book written by an
    author I am unfamiliar with--nothing ever seems to reach out and
    "grab" me anymore.  The whole section DOES look like the same books
    with just different illustrations on the covers.  A few years back,
    I used to purchase books with a vengance--things seemed to be different
    and more interesting then--now, I rarely, if ever, buy a new SF/Fantasy
    book save by a small (VERY small) collection of names I know that
    put out a good book.  
    
    What makes good fantasy to me?  Well, originality of plot is not
    a high criteria.  Just about every possible plotline in the universe
    has been used in some way, shape or form--to expect something totally
    NEW is unreasonable.  However, old plotlines can be done in fresh
    ways, with believable (relatively speaking, of course), fleshed
    out characters--no cardboard, please.  And I mean both good AND
    bad guys need to be more than stamps.  If the author takes care
    to make the characters "live", the result is generally a book where
    everything is real--the world, the motives for whatever it is the
    characters are supposed to be doing (if it isn't at odds with the
    character's personality), and so on.  This transcends genre, of
    course.  It really doesn't matter what you're writing about--if
    you use cardboard, it just isn't interesting.  And, of course, you
    do need that hook to make the reader pick up your book.  I can't
    really define that hook, but you know it when you see it.  
    
    Personally, I don't like overdrawn, ultra-detailed fantasy, in the
    vein of JRR Tolkien.  I never did finish LOTR.  I do know that yes,
    fantasy is compared to Tolkien quite often, even if it isn't a rehash
    of Tolkien's books, and the comparison isn't always fair, but such
    as it is.   I don't mind the so-called "epic" style fantasy (I liked
    Sword of Shannara and Elfstones, too--is that a bad word around
    here?  ;)  ), as long as it is done in a relatively fresh fashion
    with characters that are interesting to read about.
    
    Regrettably, I can't seem to find newer books that I even want to
    read the back cover blurb.  That's too bad, but hopefully the cycle
    will change.   And that's the word from here.....  ;)
    
                                                ---kim

     Re -.1: It appears it's time for Used Book store visits.  I
     	     went thru my library list and went over the Fantasy 
     	     titles.  I'm not sure what corner of Fantasy you tend
     	     towards, but I've omitted Swords & Sorcery- and Folklore-
     	     type books.  (I didn't have any Occult- to omit. ;-))

     ABBEY,L.        BLACK FLAME, THE
     ANTHONY,P.      SPLIT INFINITY  [T A A #1 THE APPRENTICE ADEPT]
     ANTHONY,P.      BLUE ADEPT      [T A A #2]
     ANTHONY,P.      JUXAPOSITION    [T A A #3]
     BEAGLE,P.S.     LAST UNICORN, THE
     CABELL,J.B.     HIGH PLACE, THE
     CHESTER,W.L.    HAWK OF THE WILDERNESS                  
     DECAMP,L.S.     CARNELLIAN CUBE, THE  (W/PRATT,F.)
     DECAMP,L.S.     COMPLEAT ENCHANTER, THE  (W/PRATT,F.) 
                     [THE MAGICAL MISADVENTURES OF HAROLD SHEA]
     DECAMP,L.S.     TRITONIAN RING, THE
     DECAMP,L.S.     FALLIBLE FIEND, THE
     DONALDSON,S.R.  LORD FOUL'S BANE          [C OF T C VOL I #1]
     DONALDSON,S.R.  ILLEARTH WAR, THE         [C OF T C VOL I #2]
     DONALDSON,S.R.  POWER THAT PRESERVES, THE [C OF T C VOL I #3]
     DONALDSON,S.R.  WOUNDED LAND, THE         [C OF T C VOL II #1]
     DONALDSON,S.R.  ONE TREE, THE             [C OF T C VOL II #2]
     DONALDSON,S.R.  WHITE GOLD WIELDER        [C OF T C VOL II #3]
     FINNEY,C.       UNHOLY CITY, THE  
                     [AKA THE MAGICIAN OUT OF MANCHURIA]
     GOLDING,M.J.    NIGHT MARE
     HYDE,M.P.       SINGING SWORD, THE
     KURTZ,K.        CAMBER OF CULDI    [C OF C VOL I]
     KURTZ,K.        SAINT CAMBER       [C OF C VOL II]
     KURTZ,K.        CAMBER THE HERETIC [C OF C VOL III]
     KUTTNER,H.      MASK OF CIRCE, THE
     KUTTNER,H.      CREATURE FROM BEYOND INFINITY, THE
     KUTTNER,H.      WELL OF THE WORLDS, THE
     LINDSAY,P.      A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS
     MUNN,H.W.       KING OF THE WORLD'S EDGE                
     NIVEN,L.        MAGIC GOES AWAY, THE  (ILLUSTRATED)
     NIVEN,L.        MAGIC MAY RETURN, THE                   
     PEAKE,M.        TITUS GROAN           [G #1]
     PEAKE,M.        GORMENGHAST           [G #2]
     PEAKE,M.        TITUS ALONE           [G #3]
     PRATT,F.        LAND OF UNREASON      (W/DECAMP,L.S.)
     PRATT,F.        WELL OF THE UNICORN, THE
     PRATT,F.        BLUE STAR, THE
     SCHOCHET,V.     BERKELY SHOWCASE VOL 1 (W/SILBERSACK,J.)
     SCHOCHET,V.     BERKELY SHOWCASE VOL 2 (W/SILBERSACK,J.)
     SCHOCHET,V.     BERKELY SHOWCASE VOL 3 (W/SILBERSACK,J.)
     SMITH,C.A.      HYPERBOREA
     SWANN,T.B.      MOONDUST
     SWANN,T.B.      DAY OF THE MINOTAUR
     SWANN,T.B.      DOLPHIN AND THE DEEP, THE
     SWANN,T.B.      WHERE IS THE BIRD OF FIRE?
     WANGERIN,W.     BOOK OF THE DUN COW, THE
     WHITE,T.H.      ONCE AND FUTURE KING, THE
     WHITE,T.H.      MASTER, THE
     WOLLHEIM,D.A.   AVON FANTASY READER, THE (W/FRIESBURG)
     
     The following I have but cannot recommend because I haven't read 
     them yet but seem to have potential:

     BRADLEY,M.Z.    GREYHAVEN                               
     CHERRYH,C.J.    ARAFEL'S SAGA                           
     DICKENSON,P.    BLUE HAWK, THE                            

     I'm sure you've read many of them, and I'm sure some you didn't care 
     for.  (They're not all classics.)  And I'm sure there are others who 
     can add inputs (pros & cons & other titles) to the list, after all,
     there's no accounting for taste.  :-)

     						Don

    Don't forget Guy Gavriel Kay's books!
    
    	The Summer Tree
    	The Wandering Fire
    	The Longest Road
    
    Somewhat of a cross-universe story, but that is a *very* small part
    of it.  Renewed my faith in adult fantasy, they did!
    
    Merryl
    

    I didn't forget Kay; I've never read any.  I don't read much Fantasy,
    hence the short list and the old titles.
    
    							Don

Re .36 (Don):

A small nit:

>     FINNEY,C.       UNHOLY CITY, THE
>                     [AKA THE MAGICIAN OUT OF MANCHURIA]

"The Unholy City" was one of two novelettes in the book; "The Magician
out of Manchuria" was the other.  They were somewhat different stories,
written some decades apart.  They're both entertaining.  The first is a
social-commentary piece I first saw paired with _The Circus of Dr. Lao_
in one volume I had. The second is a comedic piece about a magician (of the
non-stage variety) who goes on a journey (since he had a snake somewhere
in his ancestry, he occasionally sheds his skin).

Finny, who's most famous for _Circus_ also had a collection of short stories,
_The Ghosts of Manacle_, which take place in the southwestern United States
in a city named Manacle.  The stories, though unconnected, have a pleasant
form of humor for the most part (though there's a rather sad story about a
rattlesnake).  Doubtless out of print, it's worth looking for in used
bookshops, etc.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    re:.39
    
    Nit on your nit:
    
    Don isn't claiming that the two stories are the same. What his
    entry says to me is that the *collection* of those two stories
    has appeared under both titles.
    
    --- jerry

    
    No nits to pick here.  I just want to second the recommendation
    of Finny as an author whose works are well worth taking the time
    to track down.
    

    Jerry's right; the "book" has been published under both titles.
    
    						Don

From:	US4RMC::"[email protected]" "MAIL-11 Daemon" 15-JUL-1994 
To:	Multiple recipients of list NEW-LIST <[email protected]>
CC:	
Subj:	NEW: FANTASY - Fantasy Fiction

  FANTASY on [email protected]

   FANTASY is a list devoted to the discussion of fantasy fiction.

   The list is unmoderated, but requires the approval of the listowner
   for subscription.  You must be subscribed to the list to post to it.

   To request subscription to FANTASY, mail to :
   [email protected] with no subject and the words :

      SUBSCRIBE FANTASY <your name>

   Where <your name> is the name you wish to be known by on the list.

   If you have any question or problems, contact list owner.

   Owner:  Morgan Bottrell  [email protected]

% ====== Internet headers and postmarks (see DECWRL::GATEWAY.DOC) ======
% Date:         Fri, 15 Jul 1994 12:04:42 CDT
% Reply-To: [email protected]
% Sender: NEW-LIST - New List Announcements <[email protected]>
% From: morgan <[email protected]>
% Subject:      NEW: FANTASY - Fantasy Fiction
% To: Multiple recipients of list NEW-LIST <[email protected]>