Conference noted::equitation

    
    You didn't mention if your mare is on pasture or paddock?
    
    Lkp

    My vet recommends feeding hay first, before grain, to slow the passage
    of the grain.
    
    michele

    RE .1:  My mare is mostly in a dirt paddock. I do have a field
            that she sometimes grazes, but the grass is not 
            rich at all. 
    
    RE.2:   Yes, I agree, the roughage in the hay does help 
            a horse's digestion. In the PM I give hay first 
            because I am home and can wait for them to finish
            before graining. But in the AM I have to rush off
            to work so they get both at once, and you know what
            a horse will go after first.....
    

    Tina,
    
    On the one hand, I'm inclined to say, if she's healthy, don't worry
    about it. On the other, I know it's harder to clean a stall when the
    manure is loose and harder to keep the horse clean too.
    
    From what your vet said about her gut moving food too fast, I don't 
    know whether the digestive aid would help or not. Those things help a 
    horse get more nutrition out of their feed but I've never heard that 
    they helped to slow the action of the gut. You might try one(check w/
    your vet first!) of those supplements. They might at least make it
    easier to keep weight on her.
    
    Does she drink unusually large amounts of water? Does she drink most of
    her water shortly after eating? Yes to either one of those questions
    would solve the mystery. Drinking right after eating would wash the
    food into the gut before the stomach had done its thing. If that's the
    case, you might try taking away her water when you feed and put it back
    an hour or so after she finishes. 
    
    Drinking large amounts of water would make the stool softer than normal 
    too. I'm not sure I'd want to change this habit though. It's better
    that a horse drink a little too much than not enough. Drinking too
    little can cause a horse's manure to be dry which makes them prone to
    impaction colics.
    
    Oh, is she like this all the time? We used to have a mare that got
    loose when she was in heat. Is something like that a possibility?
    
    John

    John,
    
    My mare is healthy but a little too thin, I think she could 
    use 75+ lbs. She does have a healthy appetite and I just switched
    her over to 10qts. of Omolene 200 14% protein and 4% fat. She was on
    Trotter 14% protein and 2.5% fat which wasn't doing anything for 
    her. I'd really like to try some Demand 16% protein and %6 fat. It's
    the fat that she needs at this point, but when you go to higher fats
    you also end up with higher proteins. With her high energy level and 
    medical history (colic) I don't want to overdo it. And I think she is 
    thin because her food is processing so fast that she's not getting 
    enough nutrients. I do give her a supplement though, Pennwood Supreme.
    Geez, it's tough to try to actively train her every other day and 
    keep weight on her too!
    
    Yes, now that you point it out, she drinks right after eating
    her grain, she takes in a good amount at that point. But she doesn't
    drink an unusually large amount through the day. I'll try
    taking her water away for a while. I'll try anything at this
    point, I am at my wits end!
    
    t
    

    I used to have trouble keeping weight on the Thoroughbred I had, he
    was (is) the stereotypical hard keeper example of the breed.  I had
    him on 10 qts daily of Trotter and free access hay.  When he didn't
    gain weight I began adding 1/4 cup of corn oil to his morning feed
    and the supplement Ration Plus in the evening.  He pumped right up,
    and I did not have to increase his protein intake.  Im not sure whether
    it was the corn oil, the supplement, or the combination of the two, but
    when he left my care about a month ago he was downright fat (he did
    nothing all winter, I dropped his grain ration to 8 qts and he
    still continued to gain). I'm counting my blessings that the two mares 
    I have now are easy keepers (a standardbred and a welsh pony), life is
    much easier! :-)
    
    
      

    Tina-
    
    Could it be that the protien level is too high?  My vet recommends
    a lower protein diet (11%) with added fat via corn oil.  She also 
    recommends not feeding over 4 quarts per feeding because it is too
    much for the animal to digest at one time.  
    
    I've fattened up several aging (over 20)  horses following her guidelines. 
    
    Good luck!
    
    Michele
    
    p.s.
    I drew up the high protein case because I know if I feed too much 
    alfalfa hay, the horses tend to be loose, and isn't alfalfa high in
    protein?

    Yes, I worry about the protein issue. It seems that any
    grain with extra fat also has extra protein. It's so 
    contradictory since one would want to fatten up a horse 
    but the extra protein gives them more energy which burns
    up fat, kind of defeats the purpose! :-)
    
    My stallion at 22 needed some fattening last year, someone
    suggested the corn oil. I also changed him from 16% protein
    to 11% protein because the extra protein was giving him too
    much energy and he was wittling off his fat. The grain change
    and the corn oil plumped him right out, I had to put him on
    a diet, he was a pork chop! But he needed it, so I was happy
    for that. :-)
    
    I thought about using the corn oil on the mare, but I was
    worried that the corn oil will make her manure even more 
    mushy? But it's worth a try if she gains weight from it.
    
    thanks for all your suggestions,
    keep them coming....
    t
    

Loose manure is the result of the large intestine not absorbing water back into
the system. I do not think that drinking alot of water has much to do with stool
softness, as digested food is near liquid almost all the way through the system.

Kidneys take care of water processing - I have heard that potassium has an
impact on the ability of the large intestine to do it's job.

So I would NOT remove the horses water during feeding time. Maybe you should
check with another vet....

        That's about all I can offer -

        Dr. JoAnne - Amateur vet ;-)

[

    >I do not think that drinking alot of water has much to do with stool
    >softness, as digested food is near liquid almost all the way through
    >the system.
    
    I've had a couple vets tell me that not drinking enough water makes
    horses' manure harder and that more moisture softens it. The moisture
    can come from grazing fresh grass(rather than eating the dried stuff we
    call hay) or from drinking more water

    
>>    I've had a couple vets tell me that not drinking enough water makes
>>    horses' manure harder and that more moisture softens it. The moisture
>>    can come from grazing fresh grass(rather than eating the dried stuff we
>>    call hay) or from drinking more water

That's because the horse's body is starved for water in general (dehydration)
and is absorbing all it can. The added water is re-hydrating the horse - and
thus rebalancing the system - as opposed to just making the stool softer The
systems are all interrelated.

So you're right of course :-)

This reply is a little late, but...

My instructor has a horse (TB, Intermediate level combined training).
She's had him for about 1.5 years now.  He also has the loose manure
(cow pies).  It's just him.  There may be nothing wrong with your horse. 
If she's otherwise doing well on the feed she's getting, I wouldn't mess
with her, especially if she's prone to colic.  The big thing is to know
what is normal for your horse, so you can recognize abnormalities.



kathy 

    Thanks for all the replies.
    
    I've switched my mare to 11% protein (10qts) and 1/4 cup corn
    oil in the PM. She has gained 15 lbs in the past two weeks! 
    For her that is a big weight gain. Her manure is still loose but
    has "some" form now. I guess I will just have to cope with it
    and keep an eye on her.
    
    It's good to know that she is not the only horse in the world 
    that has loose manure because up until I mentioned it in this
    file, nobody I knew ever had this problem!
    
    By the way............she is a TB  !!
    
    Tina
    

    Just out of curiousity, how do you know she gained 15 pounds?  Do you
    use a rule of thumb about girth and height, or do you have some other
    method?  I'm not doubting you, I'm just wondering how do you know your
    horse's weight.

    I don't know how TIna weighed her horse but there are several ways to
    get a fairly accurate weight.
    	1. Go to a place that has a livestock scale. In a pinch, a truck
    scale will do but they usually only give weights to the nearest 25 or
    50 pounds. 
    
    	2. Use a tape measure and formula. There are several formulas
    available. Some use just girth measurement. Others use additional
    measurements(e.g around the neck) as well as girth.
    
    	3. Use a commercially available weight tape. (Less than $5 at local
    tack shops)
    
    	4. Height and length and/or general condition score
    
    There was an article in EQUUS magazine a few years ago(July 1991). See
    Note 33.44 for more info on that article. BTW, EQUUS never did reply to
    that letter.
    
    
    John

    I use a tape measure around the girth for the weight. I've been
    weighing this mare like this for several years since here weight
    has always been a problem. Now, whether it is accurate or not I 
    don't know, but it does give me a good idea of a gain or loss. 
    
    I just completed the Omolene challange (buy 2 bags of grain get 
    2 free bags). It's a program that the horse is on for 4-6 weeks. 
    There is a chart that is filled out weekly, i.e.; coat condition, 
    attitude, weight...She didn't really seem to gain anything from it, 
    but her coat became shiny, but that may have been due to me brushing 
    her alot. Omolene is almost twice the price of Blue Seal, I'm switching 
    back to Blue Seal, but at lower protein than what she was getting.
    
    	t