Conference noted::equitation

    Ayn,

    I can't answer all your questions off hand but many of them have been
    discussed in various places throughout the conference.  To help people
    find topics of interest, we moderators maintain an index in note 4.

    From your questions, I believe that the following keywords would be
    of intesterst for you:
       Topic index   KEYWORD
          note
	  4.73        FOALS 
	  4.132       NEW_FOAL_INFO
	  4.133       NEW_OWNER
          4.168       SHOWING
          4.195       TRAINING

    I'll begin an answer to the size question here.

>    DAME:  Another Time 2nd  (16.1  1/4 Hanavarian - 3/4 Thoroughbred)
>    SIRE:  Hasty's Growth    (17.2 Registered Thoroughbred)
>    
>    DAME's MOTHER:  16.3 Registered Hanavarian
>    DAME's FATHER:  16.2 Registered Thoroughbred
>    
>    SIRE's MOTHER:  16.2 Registered Thoroughbred
>    SIRE's FATHER:  17   Registered Thoroughbred
>    
>    1) The foal is now 6 days old and he is about 3.5 feet to his back.
>       Considering the above information is the any way of knowing approx.
>       how tall he will be..I want at least 16.2, but it would be nice
>       to have about 17 hh.  Can you help me with info. on how to tell
>       about how tall he will get ?

	I have a book at home which has some reliable ways to estimate
	a foal's mature height. I'll look up the info tonight. However,
	in order to use those formulas, one must measure the foal's height
        at the withers. A guess to the height of his back will will give 
	you the wrong answer. 

	Typically, a foal will be closer to the dam's size if she is 
	smaller than the stallion. However, your foal's pedigree shows
	several exceptions to that generalization. For example, his dam 
	is smaller than both parents and his sire is taller than both parents!

	John

    Hi,
    
    Congratulations on your new colt!  Your baby is the same height my
    gelding was at birth.  He is now 15.1.  But my horse is an Arabian.
    I would guess that your horse will be larger.
    
    I have a suggestion for his name.  How about Hizzoner (His Honor).
    Here in Bahstun (Boston) that's sort of how it's pronounced.
    
    To answer a couple of other questions about raising your baby...
    I would want to handle him as much as possible to teach him to lead
    and have some manners right away.  I was always, I think, overly 
    concerned that my horse (who was a stallion for 11 years) never ever
    learn any bad behaviors.  
    
    It's good for babies to go out and play and have friends too.  Will you
    geld your colt or keep him whole?
    
    Check with your vet about a feeding program.  Some people like high
    protein for babies and some don't.
    
    My horse was shown on the line, or at halter, or in hand, as a 3 and
    4 year old.  I don't really like to show babies...I like them to grow
    up a little first.  Halter horses need to know how to stand up and 
    they need to be conditioned.  And every breed and discipline does
    things a little differently from the others.  Go to some shows and
    ask around.  
    
    And have fun!  Take care of that baby and the payback will be worth it.
    
    gwen 

    Congratulations on your new baby! Sounds like your in for a lot
    of fun! I have no advise about raising babies as I've never owned
    a foal, but I do have to say that I think if I were in your 
    position I'd name him "Donations Accepted". :-) Good luck, and
    keep us posted!
    
    Linda
    

    Congratualtions on your colt!  I've spent several years handling
    foals before breeding my own last year.  My colt is a yearling
    and will be gelded tomorrow.  
    
    I've handled him every day, and he does what ever I ask, cross ties,
    clips, trailers, leads, lunges (once a week for 5 minutes tops....too
    much strain on the growing body.  It is primarly for learning W/T/C
    commands), ground drives, and I've pony'd him since he was a suckling 
    all over the place, and like I said he accepts everything I ask of 
    him.......
    
    .....Well with one exception.....I can't get near him to clean his
    sheath....maybe that will be taken care of after tomorrows
    operation??!!
    
    Good luck, foals are FUN!!!!

    I looked up Willoughby's chapter on estimating mature height of foals in
    his book "Growth and Nutrition in the Horse". The author has two 
    formulas which are of interest. One says that the foal's height at birth
    will be approximately 62.5% of his mature height at age 5.

    This is supposed to be an all breed average and works well for large 
    ponies, light horses and draft horses. For small ponies(e.g. Shetlands)
    the author suggests using 65.9% instead.

    The formula uses the foal's height at the withers on the day of birth.
    Please note that one cannot measure the foal a week or two later and use
    this formula. It would give artificially high estimates because the foal 
    will have grown. 

    Birth height / 0.625 (i.e. 62.5%) for large ponies and all horses
    Birth height / 0.659 for small ponies

    If Ayn's colt was in fact 3.5 feet(i.e. 42") on the day of his birth, 
    the above formula suggests that he should grow to be about 16.3 hands 
    or 69" or 168 cm.

    Willoughby claims that the estimate will usually be within 3% of the
    mature height. This is an error margin of 1 3/4" for a 15 hand horse and
    about 2" for a 17 hand horse. However, I have used 62.5% to estimate 
    the mature height of every foal we bred(when we were crazy enough to do 
    that!). I found that the predictions from the day of foaling were within
    1/2" for our horses.    

    The other formula offered by Willoughby estimates a foal's *expected* 
    birth height from the mature height of the parent of the same sex. This 
    formula is:

    0.568 x same sex parent's height + 3.6"


    Since Ayn's colt is by a 17.2 hand stallion, the above suggests that
    the colt would be expected to be a little over 43" (43.36" actually) 
    which is consistent with her estimate of 3.5'. However, our experience
    suggests that there is a wider margin of error here. We had 2 fillies
    which were out of the same mare but by different stallions. They were
    just under 2" different in birth height and 3" in mature height. This 
    formula ignores the influence of the other parent!

    Anyway, if the colt were closer to 43" at birth, his predicted mature 
    height would be about 17.1 hands (69" or 172 cm)

    The short version is: Yes, Ayn. With proper nutrition, this colt should 
    mature to be 16.2 hands or taller. Because you don't have an accurate
    measurement within 24 hours of foaling, I'd guess he'll mature
    between 16.2 and 16.3 because his dam is more than 1 hand smaller than 
    his sire.

    John

For those who want to estimate a foal's height from its height at various 
ages, I've extracted the following percentages from Willoughby's book.
They can be used in the formula:

	current height / Willoughby's fudge factor

  Age		Willoughby's fudge factor
_______         ________________________
birth		0.6250
1 month		0.6846
3 months	0.7611
6 months	0.8272
1 year		0.8940
18 months	0.9341
2 years		0.9587
3 years		0.9862
4 years		0.9935
5 years		1.0000

We found that growth spurts make estimates made using these percentages at 
various ages a less reliable than the estimate made on the day of birth. The
timing of a growth spurt could make the estimate higher or lower than with
a steady growth rate. Note that you should not "guesstimate" a fudge factor
for other ages. It doesn't work.

John

    Thank you John for all of your help.  I am really happy with all
    of this information !
    
    Thanks to all of you for all of your suggestions.
    
    Last night (Apr. 21), he is now 1 week old - the mare was being
    led to pasture and the colt was to follow.  I was there (as I am
    everyday after work !), I was told to follow him and make sure that
    he followed the mare etc.  He jumped around and flew all over the
    place !!  He never stands still, he has a lot of character and a
    lot of energy which I am very pleased about.  He came to me as I
    tried to steer him properly towards his mother...he stood on his
    back legs rearing all over and coming towards me.  I laughed when
    he did this, he was just trying to play...then I just tried to direct
    him in the right direction.  He is very playful !
    
    I still don't have a name that I can decide upon, I have a lot of
    names to choose from although nothing seems to "click".  I will
    just wait until the right name comes along.  Thank you for the
    suggestion of "Donations Accepted"...I added to my list and a lot
    of my friends think its great !  I still need time to decide.
    
    I am looking forward to this weekend to spend time with him and
    turn him out.  I brushed him lightly with a body brush, he just
    stood there in the stall beside pulling at my jeans and jacket camly.
    His halter gets put on and off daily so that he gets used to it.
     I pick up all of his feet and rub and touch his legs every time
    I see him (everyday !)  He is doing great.
    
    Thank you for everything.  
    
    Ayn

    For names:
    
    Just in Time
    Lightning Bolt (from your description)
    Timely Arrival
    
    Gita

    
    
    
    You seem to prefer male horses.  Any reason why you would not have 
    wanted the foal if it had been female?
    
    Just curious,
    
    Simone
    
    

    I was thinking about what I would name a baby if my mare had one. 
    These are a few of my favorites:
    
    Hello Gorgeous
    Dancing Slippers
    Aladdin
    Jasmine
    Sweet Pea (O.K. so it's a dorky name but it's cute)
    Soleil
    High Steppin'
    High Hat
    Fire Starter
    
    Out of your list I would pick Amadeus.
    
    Good luck!!!
    
    
    

    Hi, 
    Congradulations on your new colt.  I don't think there are too many
    things more exciting than to have a new "family member".  I just got my
    wife a 4 year old Polish Arabian Gelding and I'm as excited as she is.
    
    You asked a question regarding what to feed the horse.  I'd like to
    make a couple suggestions from things I learned at Cal Poly a  couple
    years ago.  
    #1 Don't feed the colt the HOT feed like Omeline unless your vet
    recommends it.  I've seen significant bone growth problems due to
    feeding a colt too hot of food.  They need as close to natural
    environment as possible.  Think what a horse does in the wild and this
    usually is a good indicator of what they should be eating.  Omeline
    isn't out there.  Grain & molasses is hard for them to digest and it
    contains a lot of natural sugars that their bodies aren't ready for
    yet. It overstimulates bone growth.  This might sound good but it
    isn't.  The young horse pays for it as he matures with health problems.
    
    #2 Don't overfeed the colt.
    Please ask your vet for an exact diet and then stick to it.
    The majority of problems I encountered when I worked with the Vets and
    Horse shoers was from over feeding.  God made the horse to move an
    average of 35 miles a day free grazing. eating a couple pieces of grass
    at a time.  We put them in small paddocks and feed them feasts
    continuously and it takes it's toll on the horses.
    
    #3 Give them free run of a corral.  
    Free exercize is the best way to build strong bones in a young colt. 
    They need the circulation in their hoof walls to grow strong hoofs.
    Bones grow naturally in the area that they are stressed.  This means
    that if you exercize a horse freely then they will have significantly
    more dense bones and larger and stronger bones.  This makes a real
    strong mature horse.  Lounging horses puts uneven stress on 1 side of
    the joints before they are hard and this can also cause problems if
    over done.
    
    The bottom line is to sit back and enjoy watching them with the
    exception of the interaction to make them leg and head friendly.
    
    I worked as a farrier for a year and visited a couple Thoroughbred stud
    farms.  I learned a lot by watching the old Mexican Caballeros work the
    young race horses.  Those guys are significantly wiser and gifted than
    most of our hight tech trainers.  Patience is a virtue.
    "God give me patience, and give it to me now!"(impatient man's prayer)
    
    Have fun with your new baby.  I raised and trained my first horse
    myself and it was the best learning experience.  I did make some
    mistakes which overstressed my horse which was why I decided to study
    at Cal Poly before I trained my next one.  They look tough because they
    are so big but their bodies are just as sensitive to stress and illness
    as we are.
    
    Take care,
    Raul
    

    Simone,
    
    To answer your question about why I prefer MALE horses.
    
    I was boarded at a very large stable with my first horse (Thoroughbred
    gelding), all the mares ALWAYS had their ears back, when you walked
    by them they often tried to nip you.  On the Schooling side of the
    barn they had about 75 school horses....all the mares caused problems
    when they were in heat etc.  All I ever heard from the other boarders
    who had mares was this problem and that problem because they were
    in heat or whatever....so, I did not get a very good impression..
    I have a German Shepherd...all my German Shepherds have been males
    because that is what I want...I had one female when I decided to
    have a litter...she was tempermental etc.  I still loved her and
    kept her but basically I prefer the male.
    
    Ayn
    

    Hi everyone !  Thank you for all this great advice.
    
    My foal was named on Sunday, Apr. 24th), I was up there with him
    and some friends and the owner said that the foal was going to be
    in an article in a magazine for May..she was asked to write an article
    on the foal, so the first name that came to mind was.."SUDDEN
    IMPACT"...that was one of my choices...everybody liked it and if
    you could all see him, well, this name suits him very well !!  As
    soon as he comes out of the stall with his "mom" he bursts out and
    takes off and kicks and jumps and stands on his hinds legs (playing
    of course !!), its just great to see him.  So he is named, his "Stable
    Name" will be just whatever...Sudd, Sudden..I believe that a name
    is a name and there is no requirement for two or three names for
    one animal.
    
    I do however need some help with regards to his LEGS.  I have about
    100 pictures of him. (the owner said that this foal is the most
    photographed foal that she has ever seen!!!), anyway, when you look
    at his legs from the side it seems like he is not standing straight,
    sort of bent at the knees.  It is bothering me, because I checked
    magazines and other books that I have at home at all of these foals
    seem to have straight legs.  Everyone keeps saying that he'll grow
    into his legs...but nobody is really giving me a straight answer...I
    know his legs look a bit bent at the front or "over at the knee"...I
    think anyway, but I don't know how to tell if that is it, I don't
    know if its because he is still young etc. etc.  PLEASE HELP ME,
    I AM WORRIED.
    
    THANKS,
    
    AYN

    RAUL,
    
    THANK YOU for all of this terrific advice.  This is very helpful.
    
    Thanks again !!,
    
    Ayn

    
    
    
    Ayn,
    
    Thanks for answering my question.  Actually, there was discussion
    regarding gender preferences in here not too long ago.  I think quite
    a few people feel as you do about mares.  I've had both and like 'em 
    either way. 
    
    BTW: I like the name, Sudden Impact, but only for dressage, not 
         X-Country  ;^).
    
    Simone 

    What do you think would be a straight answer about his legs?
    
    First of all, being slightly "over at the knee" is considered
    *beneficial* by many conformation experts(e.g. Dr. Deb Bennett and Dr.
    DeWitt Owen). 
    
    Secondly, many foals are born with tight muscles and tendons that need 
    time to stretch out and look "normal". Since this foal is only 3 weeks
    old, his legs probably change a lot in the near future. I have seen
    foals with crooked looking legs straighten out to be perfect.

    My foal was the same way, and I was just as concerned as you are.  The
    vet told me the same thing - it was considered normal.  As he got older
    (a few months) the problem went away.  
    
    Kathy
    
    He sounds adorable:-)

    If you think your foal looks funny....we have a �arab pont foal at the
    barn who is all legs and quite funny looking!  Can't wait to see him in 
    a few weeks when he straightens out!

    Thanks for your help...I feel much better about his legs now !
    
    I saw him yesterday (Apr.28th) - he's exactly 2 weeks old now. 
    Anyway, I always go in the stall, brush him everywhere, touch his
    legs everywhere and put the halter on (every visit)..last
    night...Christine (the mare's owner-who is very knowledgable) told
    me to go ahead and attache the lead while I was in the stall and
    just hold him quietly as I brush him.  Well, he was fine, but then
    he starts leaning on me, swishing his telling (no ears back), just
    playing or whatever..but very rough and I was very nervous.  Then
    he would stop and stand perfectly, then he would get excited and
    start pushing me over and jumping a bit, THEN !!! he started jumping
    right to the ground to push me around !! I was very nervous and
    just stood back slightly, but I did say "NO".  He kept doing this
    every once in a while.  Christine said that he was rebelling...I
    thought he was trying to dominate/play..because he wasn't really
    pulling on the rope to give him reason to rebell...I guess.  (he
    was outside all day too !!)
    
    1)  How do I discipline..or is "NO" enough ?
    2)  Is this normal, or is he unusually excitable and rough or are
        all colts this pushy and rebellious ?
    3)  Does this mean that he will be 1200 lbs and suddenly fall down
        and try to push around or what ?
    
    
    HELP HELP HELP
    
    Ayn

    Try `quit it' instead of `No'.  No can sound like Whoa, and can be
    confusing.
    
    Now is the time to be aggressive with your colt and let him know you
    are the boss.  Ask someone experienced in handling foals to show you.
    If you wait too long then it will be much harder!
    
    Foals will bounce around, but they should be taught that once on the
    lead, they are to behave (just imagine how hard it will be to 
    halter him if he does not stand still).
    
    

    I think last month's Horseman's Yankee Pedlar had a really good article
    about your space and the horse's space.  The article gave direction
    about how you have the right to your space and the horse isn't to
    intrude on it.  This means, leading your horse and your horse walks all
    over you - literally.  Some horses (my old horse had this bad habit)
    will really butt you with their heads when they want to be in your
    space but won't quite cross the line of putting their body into your
    space.  The other side of the coin is that the horse has a right to
    expect to be led competently and given appropriate signals to stop,
    stand, turn, etc.
    
    This author usually works with older colts/fillies, spoiled older
    horses and when she is teaching them about her space, she carries a
    small hunt bat.  The hunt bat makes more sound than has actual sting,
    and she can use the butt of it in the ribs when the horse starts to
    track in a crooked line and starts to walk on her.
    
    I'm not suggesting you do this with a 2 week old foal, but this is most
    definitely THE time to assert yourself and have him start to respect
    you.  You might want to tuck the hunt bat into your mind for future
    reference.
    
    I didn't know enough years ago to do this with a foal I used to own and
    my ignorance turned him into a striker with his front foot.  When he
    was very little it was cute - I thought it was "play with me."  It was
    Partly that and partly dominance.  When he got older it turned quite
    dangerous.  I had him professionaly trained and he did turn out very
    nice, but a lot of it was caused by unnecessary weakness on my part.
           

    My little foal (Sudden Impact) will be 3 weeks old tomorrow
    (May 5/94).  He is quite friendly now too, when you go into the
    barn, he nickers, when you call him in the field he runs over and
    nickers again and again.  I am very glad that I spent each and every
    day with him...this made a difference...the mare's owner (Christine)
    also handled him right from birth and every day thereafter.  He
    loves people.
    
    Thank you for all of your wonderful advice.  His legs are still
    bent over at the knee, but thanks for your advice on this also,
    I have more confidence now.  He moves great though, he is very lively
    and his movement is fast and sturdy.
    
    I am going to measure him again today or tomorrow with the measuring
    tape...just curious.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Does anyone know of a schedule or a plan of what he should know
    from now until about 4-5 months.  What should he learn ?  At this
    point, he wears his halter every day when I am with him, we remove
    when nobody is around..he is fine with the halter.  I brush him
    everyday and he stands fairly good with that...as good as expected
    for this age I guess !!  I pick-up his feet, he doesn't like this
    too much, but I am able to do it anyway.  I have just started putting
    on the lead in the stall and coaxing him forward and leading when
    he is let outside...he leads quite well.
    
    What else should he know ?  What kind of plan should I work towards?
    I really want to do the very best that I can with him.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ayn

    Congratulations on your foal, they are a lot of fun.  As another
    noter stated though, behavior that is "cute" at 3 weeks old can 
    can turn into very bad habits.  When my filly was about a month old,
    I was feeding her and her mother grain out of separate buckets on
    the ground.  One day I was bringing the grain out, apparently not
    quickly enough for her and she wheeled around and kicked me in the
    knee.  I didn't do anything when it happened but the next day brought
    a whip with me when I put the grain out.  She tried it again and I
    gave her a crack with the whip.  She has never offered to kick again.
    The same with biting, that is something that can't be tolerated.
    There are many good books out there on raising and training foals,
    and I'm sure some of them have schedules on what you should expect
    from the foal and when.  The groundwork you put in now will be the
    foundation for the rest of his life so you want to be consistant and
    firm.  
    
    Good luck!
     

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    	Ditto - all of the last note and.......
    
    	Really... it sounds like you're on track and doing very well
    	together!!  Congratulations for sure.  Meantime, there IS
    	some real good reading out there.  I can recommend two books
    	that I particullarly like, Blessed Are the Foals and From Foal
    	to Two...  there are many many more... take yourself to the
    	nearest tack shop - book store - and take a look in the book
    	note in this file!
    
    	Continued good luck !
    
    
    	smiles - h

    I saw him last night, I measured hime again...he is now 43" at the
    wither..he was 41" 2 weeks ago.  Not bad.
    
    But, when I went into the stall (as usual), I felt his legs, brushed
    him and put his halter on, then I put the lead on just to hold
    him...well, he'll stand for a bit then he starts to swish his tail
    around rapidly (as though he were really excited) and he starts
    trying to push me around with his should...then he falls down from
    trying to push me and rolls around on the ground thrashing and gets
    up and trys again..of course I do everything to try and stop him,
    but, I am very, very nervous and unsure at the point when he goes
    to the ground, because I feel trapped in the stall with his legs
    all over and I don't know where he is going to get up and then I'm
    afraid he'll stand on the lead or get caught in it while he's rolling
    around.  He is not angry by any means..but how do you stop a horse
    from going to the ground...expecially when your already cornered
    and you cannot move too much ??  Is he too dominant ? What is he
    doing ?  What should I do ?  
    

    Foals, just like any other young animal have a very limited 
    attention span.  Maybe you're trying to do too much with him
    and he just isn't ready for it yet.  Let him be the judge of
    how much he will stand.

    
    
    Good point Linda.....I just took that for granted.
    
    Ayn- Perhaps you can bring mom out and put her on cross ties, or tie
    her in the stall, and then lead the foal out of the stall.  This way
    you'll have more room.  He'll bounce around, but you need to teach him 
    to behave on the lead.   
    
    If you are as nervous as you say you are, you may want to find
    someone who handles foals regularly who can help out.  THe foal
    probably senses that you are nervous and is probably more aggressive.
    

    The story with my foal is in Topic #1879, but I have a very specific
    concern and need some help.
    
    My foal is 3 weeks old now (May 5/94), he is still "over at the
    knee".  It seems to be quite a bit...I am not extremely experienced
    with foals at all.  But I did notice it when he was a week old and
    everyone I asked just said that he'll grow out of it.  I've looked
    in every book in librarys, horse stores etc.  There is not much,
    I just want someone to tell me if they have ever seen a foal develop
    nice straight legs if he/she was over at the knee.  I am very
    concerned.
    
    The foals sire is just down the road at a big stable and there are
    two other foals there...one is a half-brother to mine (same sire)
    who is 2 weeks older and one is a quarter horse colt who is the
    same age as mine....NEITHER OF THESE FOALS HAVE LEGS LIKE MINE..THEY
    ARE STRAIGHT.....I CHECKED THEM BOTH CAREFULLY...ALTHOUGH MY FOAL
    SEEMS TO HAVE LONGER AND BIGGER LEGS MAYBE, I DON'T KNOW...I'M JUST
    CONCERNED AND WOULD LIKE AS MUCH INPUT AS POSSIBLE.
    
    THANK YOU VERY MUCH
    
    AYN
    

I don't want to seem abrupt, but if you are really concerned, 
consult your vet.  Since none of us here on the ether have seen 
your colt, we can't really give an accurate diagnosis or prediction.


kathy

    Ayn,
    
    You are getting too hung up on how straight the foal's knees should
    be. You have to remember that he is in fact just an infant. Give
    him at least 6 months to develop.
    
    You should be on a good inoculation schedule right now so you should
    be seeing the vet within the next several weeks anyway. Have the 
    vet thoroughly examine the foal's conformation. He will be able
    to give you some insight into this because of this educated 
    knowledge and because he gets to see "alot" of foals and can
    make some comparisons for you.
    
    The fact that the other 2 foals you mentioned had straight knees
    at an early age really means nothing at this point. They are all
    individuals and will grow differently. And if your foal is bigger
    or long legged, there is alot more body weight for the foal to have
    to carry, so it COULD be a factor to the stress on his knees. Also
    if the foal is big, think of how it had to contort itself to fit
    in the mother's womb. Sometimes, because of this, the foals will
    be born with temporary leg problems. My filly was born with one
    rear hoof pointing out instead of forward but within 4 months it
    took care of itself.
    
    Exercise in most cases will help to strengthen the foal's muscles,
    tendons, and bones and in time they straighten out.
    
    But note that this is just my opinion and you should consult with
    a vet if you are concerned.
    
    	Tina
    

    On Thurs., May 12th the foal "Sudden Impact" was exactly 4 weeks old, he is 43.5"
    at the wither.
    
    The vet came and gave him his first set of shots and a wormer -
    Eqvalan.  The vet recommends this brand because it kills the larvae
    and you do not need to change brands, there is no resistance...I
    asked him specifically...and both vets said that there is not one
    case of resistance (with this product any way) and that it is the
    safest and most effective wormer around.  This vet is very highly
    recomended and is the most popoular vet in the entire area.  So,
    apparently I do not need another type of wormer.  
    
    I also asked the vet about his legs being "over at the knee", he
    said that about 15-20% of foals are born with this type of fault
    but they usually straightened out in time, but he said that my horse
    may always have a slight appearance of it.   He also said that it
    is not severe and the foal functions great and looks great so that
    it is not a concern in performance.  He basically said not to worry
    at all !!
    
    Ayn

    >The vet came and gave him his first set of shots and a wormer -
    >Eqvalan.  The vet recommends this brand because it kills the larvae
    >and you do not need to change brands, there is no resistance
    
    I'm sure he meant that you do not need to change *drugs* rather than
    brands. There are several brands of equine dewormer that contain the
    same ammount the drug, ivermectin. Eqvalan is one of them. The others 
    that I know of are Zimectrin and Rotectin. Both are cheaper per dose than
    Eqvalan...at least here in the US. Canadian prices may be different.
    
    There are other deworming programs that American vets recommend highly
    for young foals on breeding farms. One is the daily wormer Strongid-C
    along with annual or semi-annual dewormings with an ivermectin based
    dewormer. I'd suggest that you read all the topics under the WORMING
    keyword before you decide on a deworming program.
    
    John

    I was out at the farm again on Sunday, May 15/94.  He is growing
    quite nicely.  His legs are starting to look straighter..I thought
    it was just me, but a good friend of mine said the same thing. 
    The foal (now 4.5 weeks old), he spends all of his time with me
    when I go see him in the paddock/field.  He comes right over, I
    slip the halter on..no problems at all.  I picked up his feet, he
    practically lifted them for me (he is so used to this now, since
    I have been doing since he was 3 days old!!), he picks them up,
    now I hold them up longer, put them down and say "good boy !" and
    pet him, then I move on to the next foot.  I lead him around a bit..I
    say, "walk-on", he comes with me and then I praise him and talk
    to him indicating that he is good, when he stops or fusses, I just
    say "no !" (I do not jerk him or anything)..I simply give the opposite
    tone of voice that I use when I am happy with what he is doing...he
    always listens immediately and continues walking or stops fussing.
     He seems to be learning quickly, I hope I am right !!  
    
    I just had to write this today because I was so happy and proud
    of him on Sunday, he is everything I have ever wanted in looks and
    temperment and he learns everything and he is always standing with
    me and wanting me to scratch him like I always do or play a bit...he
    is extremely friendly and people oriented.  I am very proud.
    
    I don't know what he should know at this age, but I think he is
    doing very well !
    Ayn

    I saw Sudden Impact yesterday (May 18th), he is 44" now !  he came
    running over to me again and I put his halter on all lifted all
    4 legs this time.  Brushed him lightly, lead him around for a short
    period of time.
    
    I noticed that his face looked funny, it looks like the fur/hair
    is coming off, but its skin underneath !!, no hair...it seems this
    way anyway....the mare's owner said that his foal coat was coming
    off and that his adult coat was "very fine" probably ! Well, it
    must be very fine because I don't see anything at all...it just
    looks funny thats all...being a "first time foal owner"...everything
    is new and different.  he is 5 weeks old, is that when they shed
    their foal coat ?  His color underneath seems darker (he is a
    chestnut), he has black-like rings coming in around his eyes and
    black around his nose and mouth.  Is this all normal ? and what
    color is he going to be anyway ?  I thought a horse was the color
    it was born with...except for lipizzaners which I understand are
    born black.  What are the facts ?
    
    Ayn

�                     <<< Note 1879.34 by KAM500::MCLEOD >>>
�                           -< Shedding Foal Coat ? >-

�    their foal coat ?  His color underneath seems darker (he is a
�    chestnut), he has black-like rings coming in around his eyes and
�    black around his nose and mouth.  Is this all normal ? and what
�    color is he going to be anyway ?  I thought a horse was the color
�    it was born with...except for lipizzaners which I understand are
�    born black.  What are the facts ?
    
Ayn,

Sounds pretty normal to the foal I had many years ago along with pictures 
of youngsters I've seen.

Their baby coat can be pretty different from their adult coat.  Generally, 
the nose is a good indication of their final color.  Hair around the eyes 
and nose is usually the first to go and leave them with pretty funny 
looking faces until the rest of their body catches up.

Bays frequently are born with light/blonde socks which look very silly when
the blonde falls out leaving patches of the adult black. 

Lipizanners are different than this.  They are born dark and over a period 
of years, their *adult* coat will change color to light grey (excluding the 
bays).

    
    
    	Sounds like he's on schedule... they shed when its time... and
    usually the face is the first to shed because it gets the most
    contact from nursing.
    
    	Horses are born with a 'foal coat' which can be deceiving as 
    far as what the exact color at maturity will be - but they don't
    change what color they are (did that sound confusing).  Ok, a bay is
    a bay.. sometimes when they're born they have long whitish/yellowish
    hair on their legs, but it you dig under the baby hair (and when
    they shed out) you'll see solid hair.  A chestnut is a chestnut - but
    they are also born with a foal coat which can (and almost always will)
    be different than their mature color.  I had a chestnut colt born 
    quite a few years ago - at birth he was the color of wheat/honey and
    his mane and tail were the same.  When he shed out he was the color of
    a hershey candy bar (dark chocolate) and his mane and tail remained a
    bit off white. (he was stunning!)
    
    	So... don't worry.   He's doing what he should, and it will be a
    few months before you see what the 'whole' picture is going to look
    like.  And, don't be surprized if next spring when he sheds his 
    winter coat that it too is a bit different than what you remembered.
    
    	smiles - h
    
    

    Here is what I've seen
    
    My colt is a black and white paint.  When he was born we thought he
    was chestnut, but his undercoat was black (as was the skin).  We didn't
    discover this until I bodyclipped him.
    
    This year as a yearling, his black spots have some white hairs
    running through them.  We arn't sure if this is because I body clipped
    him again (early) or if he has a few stray hairs that are white running
    through his black.  They arn't real noticable, unless you look.....
    but he is cute regardless!

    Thank you so much for all of this information.  This helps me a
    great deal..boy I am learning a lot !!  I do, however, have another
    situation which I really think I need some help with.
    
    1.  My foal (Sudden Impact) who is now 5 weeks, is supposed to be
        moved to the big farm (the owner's place) in June when the fields
        dry up so that he can go with two other mares and foals for
        the summer.  He is now at a smaller farm with the other owner
        until that time.
    
    	Question:
    
    	He just had his first set of shots 1 weeks ago (4 weeks old)
        and wormer, although he is scheduled to leave around June 5th,
        but he hasn't had a Strangles shot yet....he will not be 8 weeks
        old at this time (which is a required age for this shot)..the
        vet recommend the Strangles shot because he is going to a bigger
        barn with a lot more horses etc.
    
    	But what is the risk of him getting Strangles if the other horse
        there don't have it (as far as I know) and is a Strangles shot
        dangerous ?  I've heard some people in the Strangles notes say
        that it could be dangerous ?  But which is safer...having the
        shot to protect him and worrying about that OR NOT having the
        shot and taking to a barn where he MIGHT contract it ?!!! 
    	Please give me your advice.
    
    	I know some of you might say..."just keep him where he is until
        he is 8 weeks old and able to get the Strangles shot"...well,
        this is also difficult because I am having a problem with the
        lady (other part owner of mare) at the place where he is now
        because I cannot do anything without consulting her..I can't
        even go and see my foal without calling her and telling her
        first, when I do get there (almost everyday...at the same time
        for about 5 weeks) sometimes the foal in already in his stall
        with mom and I just stand there stunned...like I am not there
        to look at him stand in the stall...I go there to put his halter
        on, lead him etc.  The lady is very protective and treats me
        like a 2 year old and also acts as though the foal is hers.
        When I paid for the foal, I paid Wayne Byrne (the other owner)..he
        actually had FULL ownership of the foal itself, he paid for
        stud fee etc.  Anyway, she is very rude to me at times and I
        have not yet felt like I own him nor have I had a moment alone
        because as soon as I drive up there she runs out and stands
        there while I am with him.  I have always been polite, but I
        want a moment with my foal and I want to decide things for myself.
        Sorry to go on like this, but I am very upset with this situation,
        anyway as you can see, I would like him out of there asap so
        that I can feel like I own him just for one minute !  I am always
        there with him because I don't want to miss him growing up,
        do you understand my dilema ?
    
    	The question is Strangles shot..yes or no ? What do you think?
    	When and how risky is the shot or how risky is taking him to
        a new barn without a shot ?  or what ?
    
    	Ayn

    I've never given my older horses the strangles shot, bucause they are
    both 12, been shipped all over and have probably already had it.   Both 
    mares were at a barn one winter where strangles was present and they
    never caught it.
    
    I think a lot of people and vets make up a big hype over strangles.  If
    you catch it early enough, then you can deal with it and control it.
    The people I know who have had a problem with it usually waited too 
    long to treat it, or ignored the vets advice.
    
    Your miliage may vary.....

The strangles shot isn't always 100% effective, either.  I know horses that
have had the shot, and have come down with strangles.  Strangles isn't a 
big deal if you treat it carefully if you get it. We've never had it spread 
in our barn because the owner is very meticulous about stall cleaning and 
horse handling of the animal that has it.

Does the new barn have a strangles shot requirement?  Have there been  any 
cases of strangles at your current barn in the recent months?  

My horse has not had the strangles shot since I've owned him.  I suggest you 
discuss your situation with the vet.  Does your vet know the other farm?
Discuss the options (move then shot, shot then move, no shot) with him/her, 
and then make the decision based on what you feel comfortable with.

If it were my foal, I'm not sure I would give the shot unless it was a farm 
requirement.


just $.02 from a non-baby owner.

kathy

    Thank you for that information.  I am going to move him WITHOUT
    the Strangles shot.  I thought about what you have said and what
    I have read elsewhere and he will be better off without it for now.
    There are two other foals at this new place, one is w weeks old
    and one is 8 weeks old...they are fine, they haven't had any Strangles
    shots...and none of the horses in the barn have Strangles...therefore,
    it is safe to assume that it is OK for him to go there...he will
    be as safe as the other two which are very well cared for.
    
    Thank you.
    

    I would like some pointers regarding moving him.  In about 2 weeks
    or so the Mare's owner will be picking up the mare and foal to bring
    to his facility..trailering.
    
    He has trailered many horses....everybody tells me anyway.  I going
    to be there to watch or help or whatever is needed.  What should
    I expect from the two or from the foal...should he just follow his
    mom on the trailer when she gets on ?  I want to know what is
    considered reasonably normal so that I have some idea of what to
    expect and I want to recognize something that might be unusual or
    dangerous...etc.
    
    When they arrive at the other facility, should the foal be checked?
    Is there any worry of colic or things to watch for because of the
    stress/anxiety of the trailering (it's about 20 miles travelling)?
    
    I know that I am asking a lot of questions, but I just want him
    to be OK and I want to be aware of what is going on with him.
    
    Your opinions will be very much appreciated.
    
    Thanks again,  Ayn
    
    P.S.  His legs are coming in VERY straight just like everyone said,
    he still slight "over at the knee", but he is becoming straighter
    each week.

    Well, on Wednesday night (June 1st), my foal was moved from the
    stable he has been at since he was born (he's now 7 weeks old).
    The mares other owner's fields were dry and ready...and his other
    two mares and foals were put out together for the first time on
    Sunday....there is also one yearling out with them.
    
    So, they walked the mare out of the barn and she walked right on
    the trailer and Sudden walked right on behind her...no problems...we
    closed everything and drove to the other stable.  Upon arrival there,
    we walked the two off the trailer just as easily as they got on.
    We put them in a foaling stall for that night so they could adjust
    to all the new things.  The next day they were put out adjacent
    to the field where the other mares and the yearling was...then at
    6:00pm they were all put together for the first time.  Well, I was
    worried..what a sight !  Their all running around with ears pinned
    back...my foal's mare is the biggest..the other two mares are Quarter
    Horse and Arabian, mine is Hanoverian and Thoroughbred cross, so
    she looks even bigger out there with them...boy she won't let anyone
    near her baby !  But Sudden is soooo friendly (as I have mentioned
    before), he wanted to go right up to the others..and he tried but
    mom stood infront of him and chased the others when he went close
    to them !  I watched all of this on the fence of course, I wasn't
    going anywhere near them, althought, I really wanted to see my foal.
    I have really bonded with him..it's strange because I was not like
    this with my other horse.  I guess I have seen my foal almost every
    day for the past 7 weeks and there is something there that is really
    strong and I felt it last night as I watched his mom panicking to
    protect him, then watched him try to approach the other foals..I
    wanted to see him, I wanted to pet him and tell him that everything
    is O.K., I had something inside me that was urging to go there with
    him, I was getting frustrated because I couldn't go pet him and
    scratch him the way he likes it because all the other horses were
    around.  I went around to the other field to follow the fence line
    up towards him, I was about 1/4 mile away from him and I decided
    to call him like I always did before, so I just called out, "here
    boy, come on, here boy"....he looked up right away, then the mare
    looked and both came running towards me..he knows me !  I was shocked,
    he came nickering right up to me and the mom stood looking around
    frantically at the other horses, but Sudden rubbed his head on me,
    he nickered, he leaned on me (as usual)..then I scratched him like
    he wants and he stood there with me waving his head happily.  I
    have to tell you all of this because he truely has amazed me..he
    really likes me..he feels safe with me and he knows me.  Then the
    mom decided to go into the other field to make sure that the other
    horse were not coming back our way..she took off, but Sudden stayed
    with me...his mom was gone and by now far out in the other field..I
    was worried because I thought what if another horse comes to me..I
    can't protect the baby !  The mom was now grazing slightly out there
    and looking around for her foal to come...but he stayed with me!
    I started walking towards her (she was very far away) of course
    he followed me as usual...if I run he runs, if I walk he walks,
    then he rubs up against me lightly and stands with me...I really
    feel a very close bond with him.  His mother started to canter back
    towards us.  When she arrived she nickered happily at him.  It was
    getting late and I had to go, so I scratched him and talked to him
    some and to the mom (she knows me just as well as he does), then
    I walked away slowly, Sudden started to follow, so I turned him
    around, but he kept following me...he followed for quite a while
    then he stopped and stared at me and turned back towards his mom.
    
    Well, the owner came out and said that has had mares and foals around
    here all of his life, but he had never seen anything like the bond
    that is between the foal and I.  He said a foal would never leave
    its mother ESPECIALLY on the first time in a new place with strange
    horses.  He said the foal must have a lot of trust in me and strong
    ties to do that..he was truely amazed.  Thats what urged me to tell
    all of you what happened on his first night with the new herd.
    
    I am really glad to have found him..he is very special to me and
    I'm sure that I am special to him.
    
    Ayn

    
    Update:
    
    Comet is 9mo old and 14hh at the withers, and 15hh at the butt :-)  he
    turned to 100% legs over night - it is so cool to watch how he grows.
    
    We have been putting splint boots and polo wraps on him for the last
    week.  We want to get him used to them on the legs, since he'll be
    lunging for 10min starting in June.  
    
    He is still the "best" boy!  He loves everything we do to him.  And he
    is the best behavied horse in the barn.  
    
    Their is one horse at the barn who picks on him, but the other one the
    new 3yr old Morgan - him and Comet play all day.  Infact Comet has
    become the instagater when it comes to starting a race - and he is
    allwasy in the lead.
    
    We think we will name his C.L.M. Comet for his registred name.  We just
    can't think of a good name for him and CLM is the 1st letter of all our
    names who own him.
    
    Louisa

Update

well our little Comet will be 1yr old on June 7th, so I wanted to get a 
jump and start to lunge him (for 15min).  I put his polo wraps on for the 
1st time, and like everything he didn't care at all.

I then took him down to what we call "the ring" - but it's really a large
semi-flat pasture that is not fenced in (I know it's not a place to teach
a yearling to lunge, but you make do with what you got)

I started Comet to the right, and he walk right out to the length of lead I
gave him and he walk around like he'd been doing it his whole life.  I then
thought I'd put in a bunch of "ho's" and "stand" and "walk-on's" and he
listened and obeyed every word command.  I was in total shock.  I then
thought I'd push my luck and ask for a trot - not thinking in a million
years that he's trot - well he amazed me again - he trotted on.  

I asked for a walk and walk he did.

I then switched directions, and my little genius did have trouble with the
going to the left.  He just had a hard time getting it.  I had Carolyn walk
on Comets outside around the circle with him and he did fine, but when she
left his side - he wanted to turn.

We got him to go around 1/2 way by him self and we called it a day.  We'll
just have to work on the left side a little.

But over all, I was very happy with our boy lastnight.

Lou

    Wow, Lou that's great! But, I wouldn't say that he didn't understand
    when going to the left. It's probably just going to be his stiffer side.
    Turning in like that is usually on the stiff side. Hope everything
    continues to go so smoothly.