Conference noted::equitation

Wendy,

Has the AQHA changed their rules to recognize AI as an approved method of
breeding? Last I heard (granted, a few years back ;^)) the AQHA and some of the
other breed organizations didn't accept AI... 

Linda

    Some breeds, including the standardbred industry will allow AI, as long
    as it is done on the farm where the stallion is standing and not
    transported off the grounds.  AI seems to be the safest method for
    all concerned as far as injury goes,  also the stallion can breed a
    lot more mares using it.

    from the 1990 APHA rule book
    
    `AI is not permitted which involves the use of semen at any time, except
    immediately(not to exceed 24 hrs) following collection, and at the
    place or premises of collection'.   The foal cannot be registered
    unless the above conditions are met

    
    
    RE.20	This is also the case in the lastest AQHA rule book.  AI
    is only allowed when it is done within a certain time frame (1 hour?)
    and on the same premises that the stallion was collected at.  The last  
    AQHA Journal had an ad for Impressive that stated they were going to
    stand him to 500 mares for the 1991 season.  I don't know how else they
    would be able to do that without using AI.  I pity the poor stallion if
    they were planning to do that with live cover.
    
    You might want to call AQHA and ask for the current rule book to make
    sure of the current breeding requirements.  I have also heard that AQHA
    might change the current color requirements for registration in the
    next year or so.
    
    The American Jockey Club only allows live cover and the stallions only
    stand to a book of about 50 mares each season.   

    WHOA..
    
    I dont have a rule book on me, but ai is accepted in AQHA as
    long as the mare is on the regitstered premises where the 
    stallion is standing.. I just wondered if there were breeds that 
    would allow me to breed me mare, i just dont feel like trucking her 
    away for 4 hours and then a month later go get her and bring
    her back.. (just a long haul i'm not overly excited about)
    
    i just thought there might be a way around it.
    
    

    The American Morgan Horse Association allows breeding by transported 
    semen (both fresh and frozen), but I don't know if you want a Morgan x
    Quarter Horse foal (could register as a 1/2 bred at best).  The AMHA
    requires blood testing to make sure you are really breeding the named
    stallion to the named mare if the foal is to be registered with them.  I 
    think some of the warmblood associations might allow breeding by 
    transported semen since the method was developed by Hamilton Farms which 
    stands many warmbloods.  Guess you'll have to decide what kind of foal 
    you want.
    
    						Jan

    Hi All,
    
    Thanks for the replies so far. It brings me more insight as to how
    a horse thinks.
    
    re: .1 I will do artificial insemination if I feel it is too dangerous
           but from what I hear it is expensive and sometimes the mare
           doesn't get pregnant??
    
    re:.5  I have been told that hobbles are dangerous to use because 
           sometimes the stallion falls off the mare in exhaustion and
           may get entangled in the hobble??
    
    Tina
    

    My mare has been artifically inseminated twice and has had two foals.
    In my opinion, its a lot safer than live breeding, ask your vet about
    having it done.

    Although AI is certainly easier and safer for the mare, it's not all
    that easy to get the stallion to agree.  It also requires a LOT of
    specialized equipment.  I think you mentioned that this is your own
    stallion?  If he's been used for AI before, then he knows the ropes and
    all you need is to get the equipment (All?)  If not, then there's the
    process of teaching him to mount a dummy for sperm collection...
    
    I'd talk to a vet who's exoerienced with breeding.  I've often had
    maiden mares tranquilized lightly and encountered no problems at all. 
    And my stallion was an eager breeder -- he screeched and hollered and
    stomped and did all those thinge likely to be scary to a maiden mare.
    
    Good luck.
    
    -ellie

    Tina,
    I have been in the breeding business for 25 years and as long as
    it is done correctly and with care you can bred maiden mares.
    
    If you consider natural cover then you should look at getting a
    breeding harness..This aids in a safe breeding program..Please
    get help and instruction before attempting...Stallions have minds
    of their own during this time..
    
    When considering A-I you need to look at going to an A-I school,
    teaching the stallion (and yourself) on collecting from him..etc.
    The equipment needed can get very involved and expensive.
    
    Hope this helps,
    Louise
    

    
    Tina,
    	I have owned and run an Arabian breeding farm for 15 years, and
    as the previous replies indicate, it is possible to breed a maiden
    mare. I would also suggest that if it is at all possible, try to let
    the mare have time "getting to know" the stallion. Stable them near
    one another for a period of time, so they aren't complete strangers.
    I have had mares that were very particular about their mates, and often
    would prove difficult to breed to an outside stallion, but wouldn't 
    hesitate for one of their old stablemates. This isn't always possible
    or practical, but sometimes it makes things easier with a maiden mare.
    	Also, definitely get some help...even stallions that have bred for
    years and you have handled for a long time can sometimes react
    unpredictably (and dangerously) if things don't go according to their
    wishes. Stallion egos are VERY touchy. That said, I have never been
    hurt during a breeding session, but I have always tried to prepare the
    animals and myself as completely as possible. I was once advised by an
    old Saddlebred breeder that I shouldn't use the same halter for
    breeding that I did for general use, because even that was noticed by
    the stallion, and could trigger unwanted behavior (i.e. breeding
    behavior) when I was just taking the stallion out for his normal
    exercise. I did not have problems with this, however, possibly because
    the two schedules were so different. He was exercised in one part of
    the day, and bred mares during another. Also, be prepared for some
    behavior changes in general, once he realizes he is being allowed to
    breed again. Some stallions are not affected at all, but some lose
    all ability to concentrate on their performance regimens. I have owned
    both types.

    This response is a bit late but better late than never.  If you are not
    experienced in breeding, I would seek help from someone who is.  There
    are literally hundreds of things to worry about, not the least of which
    is the added complication of a rowdy stallion with a maiden mare.  The
    stallion may not even be a problem since one handler's rowdy is another
    handler's calm.
    
    To begin with, if this is to be a registered breeding you need to know
    what you can and cannot do.  For example if you cannot use AI to breed
    a T-bred with the jockey club.  You cannot breed an Arab unless you
    fill out a stallion report (filed in December), and have blood typing
    done for the stallion AND the mare.  Other breeds have other
    restrictions.
    
    Pasture breeding is the least stressfull of all breedings to both the
    mare and the stallion.  Fewer stallions are hurt in this method of
    breeding because they quickly learn that there is no one holding the
    mare down for them (hobbles, harnesses, and etc).  The stallions learn
    respect for the mare and only mount when the mare is ready.  That said,
    it should be noted that pasture breeding of a stallion which has only
    been hand bred could be a problem because they have not had the
    opportunity to learn any manners.
    
    Hand breeding is generally less successful than pasture breeding but is
    often, in my experience anyway, more successful than AI.  Hand
    breeding, however, can be the most dangerous type of breeding.  That
    quiet stallion that wouldn't hurt anyone may be a real "Mr Hyde" when
    you stand a mare in front of him.  I have also seen the corollary where
    a hperactive stallion becomes the world's greatest lover to the extent
    that the mare becomes tired of all the nuzzling and kissing without any
    action!  The bottom line is that even if you know the stallion and his
    breeding habits, complications can arise where you need an experienced
    handler to prevent injury to you, the mare, or the stallion himself. 
    Apart from the care of the stallion, you must be able to handle the
    mare, including the washing, teasing, and etc.
    
    AI is for experts!  Kids do not try this at home unless you have the
    equipment, training, and staff to help.  It is a very scientific
    process which must be followed religeously.  (For example, sperm die
    with a temperature change of only several degrees)  You can probably
    find a veterinarian in your area who will do this for you but it will
    be expensive.
    
    Hope this helps...
    
    Regards,
    
    Bob
    
    

I was told recently by a friend that the offspring of artificially inseminated
mares  are not eligible for registration. This is supposed to be due
to the fact that there is no way to guarantee that the shipped semen is
actually from the selected stallion.

Granted, it would be pretty unscrupulous on the part of the stallion service, 
but it does raise an interesting legal question. 

	Are there any breed registries that will not register these offspring ?

	Is there some type of certification process for the *sellers of semen* 
	that may qualify offspring for registration ?

It would seem that this might put a damper on the European warmblood frozen
semen industry (I don't know what else to call it ;-)).

Any breeders out there know the facts?

    The APHA will not permit AI  except if it is used within 24hrs of
    collection and at the place of collection.  A foal may not be
    registered if conceived by AI, except immeadiately after collection and
    at the place of collection
	
    APtHA follows similar rules, with the addition that a licensed vet has
    to be in attendance during AI and sign the breeding certificate. 

    Hi Joanne,
    
    The standardbred industry allows AI, and because of the large numbers
    of mares being bred at big farms, thats what most of them are using.
    The mare has to be bred at the farm where the specimin was collected
    and it cannot be shipped off the farm.
    
    Linda

    re.0
    
    i dont know for certain but i thougth morgan recognizes AI, and the 
    mare need not be present to win :*)
    
    but AQHA does recongnize AI , but similar to the paints they
    have to be on site with the stud.. and I think by a vet as well..
    
    			WENDY O'
    
    

    Interesting question! You see ads all the time in magazines (I've
    noticed it for warmbloods anyway) that say "transported semen
    available". Maybe the resulting foals aren't registerable? I do
    hope to one day breed my mare to a warmblood (or if that's not
    possible, to an Appendix QH). I don't particularly care if the
    foal is registerable or not, but I imagine that's very important
    in a lot of cases!
    

    The warmbloods do allow shipped semen, although I'm not sure about
    frozen semen. They require a blood test on the foal before registering. 
    My vet and I were talking about why a breeder wouldn't want to ship.
    She said that it did leave the door open for an unscrupulous vet on the
    mares side to breed two horses with one shipment. You can't register 
    without registered stallion listed though.

    The standardbreds are also required to be blood tested, the stallion
    during the year he is used for breeding, the mare during the time she
    is pregnant and the foal usually before it turns 2.  The foals have
    to be tested before they can be tatooed, which is usually during their
    2 year old year.

    The American Morgan Horse Association does allow use of shipped/frozen
    semen. ALL foals must be blood-typed whether they were the product of
    natural or artificial insemination.
    
    The Jockey Club does not allow any AI for Thoroughbreds

    Hi all!
    
    This one has been quiet for a while.  My question is about what legal
    rights one has when their mares have been AI'ed. 
    
    We have 3 mares that were AI'ed in February.  We moved them to a
    pasture where they were not fed properly.  When we went to check on
    them a few weeks later they had lost alot of weight.  Anyway, we moved
    them back to where the stallion was borded and the stallion's owner
    said they acted like they came back into season so he AI'ed them again
    in April.  They were never checked by a vet.  Now it seems they may not
    be in foal again.
    
    What I want to know is can we get our breeding fee back from the
    stallion owner?  I mean, it is too late in the season to re-breed and
    we are moving out of state soon.  Also, the stallion might be dead by
    next season (but that is another story).  So, what is the normal
    practice when a mare isn't in foal?  Do breeders refund the stud fee?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Virginia

    In the Standardbred industry, the stud fee isn't paid until there
    is a live foal on the ground.  Even if the mare carries the foal to
    term and its born dead, they owe you another breeding or you don't
    have to pay, because you have no live foal.  When my mare was bred
    previously, she stayed at the stud farm for a month to insure they
    caught her in heat, they did AI twice and the vet checked her about
    2 months later to see if she caught.  
    
    I am expecting a breeding contract in the mail this week, so I can
    probably add more tommorow.

    What you'r entitled to depends on what sort of agreement, if any, was
    made with the stallion owner.  Typically, unless it's stated otherwise,
    a stallion owner can argue quite forcibly (as far as the law is
    concerned) that the stud fee pays for breeding a mare through one heat
    cycle.  As far as AI is concerned, they could probably argue that it
    pays for the process of artificially inseminating the mare.  Period.  
    Were the mares checked previously to see that they were in fact in
    foal?  Seems that if they were, then the AI "did it's job", and it's a
    question, rather, of proving that the care the mares were given caused
    them to lose their foals.  This would be real close to impossible, I
    would think, and would cost more money in lawyers than the stud fee,
    no matter what it was (high stud fee == high priced lawyers fighting;
    lower stud fee == lower priced lawyers fighting).
    
    It's true that live foal contracts are very common, but they are just
    that -- contracts.  If you didn't have one at the outset, you don't get
    one by default.  Many AI breeders do not do live-foal contracts, since
    there are so many variables in determining whether or not the mare
    slips.  I guess their feeling is that once they do the breeding, the
    rest of the gestation is under the care of the mare owner not them, and
    why should they be responsible if the mare isn't cared for properly.
    
    It sounds though, like you had the stallion owner caring for the mares?
    
    
    -ellie

    Just re-read you note again and saw that they were in someone other
    than the stallion owners care when they seemed to slip the foals.  IF
    the mares were known to be in foal before this happened, then your only
    chance is with the person who maltreated the mares.  But you are
    probably not going to get another breeding of the mares, since if they
    were already in foal, then the AI did it's job, so to speak, right?
    
    So, again, it all depends on whether or not you had a written live-foal
    contract up front.
    
    -ellie

    Well, here is where things get screwed up.  Elver (now spouse, then
    partner) never got anything in writing because he was helping the
    stallion owner at the time.  He was going through a bad divorce and
    lost everything except this stallion.  Alot of the breeding fee was
    paid for in trade ($100.00 in plywood, 1 horse $700.00, ect...) but
    there was the booking fee that was paid by check out of my account but
    that was over a year ago.  I know it all sounds like we deserve  what
    is happening to us but if I had known how this transaction was coming
    about I would have gotten everything in writing.  All we really want
    back is the actuall cash we put into this breeding (Oh, they were never
    checked from the first AI so he just took it upon himself to do it
    again cause they were `acting' like they were in heat again).
    
    The mares will be checked this Saturday.  
    
    Let this situation be a lesson to us all.  No matter how well you know
    someone or like them or what a good reputation they have........Get
    everything in writing with detail!  I could kill him for not doing
    that.
    
    Virginia
    
    ps. this is the same stallion and owner that I had mentioned before
    about bouncing a check to the AQHA.  Just our luck!
    
    

    
    	It looks Virginia like you have answered your own question... that
    it is important to have a contract and an understanding of what that
    means to each of the parties.  Using AI is only a method for impreg-
    nating mares... the contracts need to address who's responsible for
    what, and how the activity will be executed.
    
    	Stallion owners philosophy varies all across the spectrum.... The
    last stallion owner I worked with felt it was his responsibility to
    ensure that I was a satisfied customer - from the beginning of our
    business doings - to the end - which equalled me having a live foal..
    He felt that the reason I was breeding to his mare was to get an
    offspring, and it was in BOTH of our best interest to get that baby
    on the ground.  
    
    	He never said things like, "I can't ship semen to you because it
    is Sunday"... and he never charged me a security deposit on his
    container because he trusted that if he asked for it back w/in 5 days
    of using it.. that he'd get it back..  and of course I felt indebted
    to make sure he did!  There was alot of 'honor' in our relationship
    but the contract covered all the angles.
    
    	I'm sorry about your situation - and hope it works out for every
    one..........
    
    				holly
    
    

    Hi All!
    
    Well, the mares were checked on Saturday.  We have two in foal and one
    who isn't.  The 21 year old TB and the 5 year old Quarter mare are in
    foal.  The 6 year old Quarter isn't.  So now it looks like was are
    going to aske the breeder for only the one stud fee back ($750). 
    The two mares seem to be about 10 days apart in their gestation. 
    Hopefully that will give me a breather between the first and second one
    coming.  I will update this as things develope.
    
    Virginia

    In case anyone is interested, I just got a newsletter from a local
    vet (Colorado Springs) specifying that A.I. has just been approved
    for Quarter Horses, Paints and Appaloosas. 
    
    \Caroline