Conference noted::equitation

    This sounds like my new saddle!  I LOVE it! Mine is black bridle
    leather and just might qualify as sexy.
    
    Keeping mine clean hasn't bee too much of a problem.  I use a brush
    on the suede and the rest gets cleaned with Saddler's One Step.
    I only oil the underside of the flaps to keep the oil off the suede.
	
    			-maureen
    

A light sprinkle of baking soda and a stiff brush are all I use to clean
    the suede seat of my western saddle.  A friend of mine who shows
    extensively English & western, once told me that a judge will not
    even look at you in a saddle with knee rolls.  (She shows the Appy circuit)
                                                                  
    Does anyone else have a comment on knee rolls?  I liked a saddle
    with them too, but I backed off because of what I had heard.
    
    
    L- & the gang

    I've heard alot about kneerolls in Colorado.   They don't seem to be in
    style out here.  I"ve heard that that's true in the rest of the country
    as well, but in Europe knee rolls are still popular.  One of the local
    tack stores does not stock the Kieffer or Steubben models that have
    knee rolls.
    
    I have a European teacher so I've always ridden with kneerolls.  I like
    having them.  I've only ridden in small, local shows so I don't know
    about knee rolls counting against you in classes. 

    
    when I first started riding i was completely overwhelmed at
    all the variations of tack you could choose from.  at one
    time it almost seemed like there was more leather than horse
    since each trainer i'd had had a 'brand new suggestion'!
    
    i, too, started out with knee rolls (same trainer as laura).
    however, after switching trainers, I fell into the close contact
    school of thought.  While I find my 'hunterdon' to be the
    most uncomfortable seat (its like sitting on a brick and according
    to ol' georgie why make it comfortable since you're supposed
    to be riding in half seat anyway), I love the close contact feel.
    i find that it places my leg in a MUCH better position than with
    the knee rolls.  Also, I found it almost impossible to get my
    legs comfortable with the knee rolls.  I actually felt more
    secure without them since I had a much better feel for the horse.
    
    I, too, have noticed that trainers seem to poo-poo the knee rolls.
    however, i haven't been to enough rated shows (like none) to be
    able to comment.  the schooling shows didnt seem to mind......
    
    truthfully, i'd go with whatever made me feel the most comfortable.
    
    jan
    

    I think it depends which circuit you are showing in.  You don't
    see much of the "orthopedic" type saddles at the AHSA hunter
    shows.  Most of the hunter folks use a small concealed knee roll.
    I gives some support, but isn't real obvious. There's not many of
    the old style stubben around (the ones with the huge suede rolls).
  	
    A lot of dressage folks do the same kind of thing, but they will
    sometimes add an additional roll behind the knee.   And some of
    my eventing friends have sadlles you couldn't fall out of if you
    tried.
    
    The breed shows tend to follow the hunter shows.
  
    Buy what's comfortable not what's the current style.

    At the A shows for Arabs that I go to, I have seen it both ways...about
    50/50.  They pinned equally, naturally depending on your horse, of
    course.  I will ask my friend who shows hunt seat at the A shows what
    she has found and let you know.
    
    Zina...sounds like you are really getting ready.  When is Kendall going
    to start.
    
    Kathie
    

    
    You just don't see knee rolls much at the rated Hunter shows.  (In
    fact, there are some who tend to point and laugh...  that includes 
    knee rolls, rolled leather bridles, running martigales, and short boots
    in hunter classes.)  ;-} 
    
    The breed shows tend to not be so uniform in style of saddle.  
    
    Besides, the judge shouldn't mark down just because of a style of tack. 
    And they usually don't mark down on that basis.  Usually there is a 
    performance reason.  Often when you see dated styles of equipment or 
    riding, that team of horse and rider MAY not be as fluid or correct 
    as those turned out in a more 'fashionable' manner.
    
    Part of the attraction of the close contact saddle is it fits in well 
    with the style encouraged by the George Morris/Bert deNemethy school.
    
    And that style has served the North Americans well in the last ten to
    fifteen years in international show jumping competition.

    re: .0
    
    Zina,  I noticed you commented about the fact the suede thigh area
    helped you from slipping and you liked that aspect of the saddle. 
    Suggestion:  Have you ever ridden in leather full-seated britches?  If
    slipping is a problem, this style of britches is GREAT!  I cannot ride
    without them now.  But, I don't think they are "legal" for the hunter
    circuit.  Just a thought.  
    
    Kerry :)

    Well said, Mary Jo!
    
    however, whats a rolled leather bridle and short boots?  knowing
    my luck, I probably have both........
    
    jan
    

    
    
    	OH NO' Rolled leather is out too!  I just had some of the pieces
    	on my rolled leather bridle custom made to fix my baby!  It
        makes his head look so beautiful...:-)  Oh well I'll just have
    	to be out of style...:-)  Just to give a little more input on
    	the first note I wrote, the saddle I'm looking at (and most likely
    	purchase) doesn't have high knee rolls, and also this is a all
    	purpose dressage saddle.  I don't know if it will halp any on
    	the question I'm aking but, I thought I better add that.  RE:.2 This
    	saddle is black too!  Your right it almost does look sexy...:-)

    
    	Zina

    
    PS.  THANK YOU for all the replys!
    

    re: .9
    
    Jan,
    
    A rolled bridle is where the leather is "rolled" NOT flat against the
    horse's head.  They are real classey looking.
    
    Short boots (a.k.a paddock boots) are the short brown boots that you wear
    with jodphurs NOT britches.  You also can wear your paddock boots out
    in the non-horsey world because they sell similar looking boots at
    department stores.  Usually in the show world juniors wear the
    jodphurs.  It is definetly a no-no for an adult.
    
    I hope this helps.

    Thanks!
    
    However, which is mine????? My bridle has a flat side against the
    forehead and a round/braided side.....does this constitute a rolled
    leather bridle?
    
    on the small boots, i'm so dense, i thought they were something
    the horse wore.....oh well.
    
    jan
    

    
    I believe (and I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong) that
    a running martingale is illegal in AHSA hunter classes. As in not
    allowed by the rule book. Martingales are not allowed in hunter
    undersaddle classes, running or standing
    
    Nancy
    

    re .12
    
    You have a raised bridle. It's reasonably fashionable - as long
    as it's not lined with white.
    
    re.13
    
    Running martingales used to illegal, but I think it's changed.
    There were some folks from very respectable barns showing in them
    this year.  I think they are tacky in the show ring.  It implies
    two things about your horse that you definitely don't want to show
    in a hunter
    	1) you can't control the beast without the hardware
    	2) the horse can't maintain his frame without help.
    
    Jumper classes are another story!
    

   My Stubben has a suede insert in the seat and flaps (just the area
    your body touches) and smooth leather around this.  It isn't
    visible from the ground.  It's definitely not like the old (obvious)
    knee rolls.  Which reminds me how much I hated my last stubben (deep
    seat, big knee rolls and all). But this was many years ago.
    
    On suede seat breeches...
    I haven't seen many of these on the hunter circuit.  The folks I
    show with have the same attitude toward these that they do towards
    running martingales - if you need this much help, you don't belong
    in the show ring.
    
    I confess that I do own one white pair (reserved for dressage).
    And they are wonderfully secure, but they look awful when I'm not
    on a horse.  Maybe it's that I'm short (with a tendency towards
    a large posterior), but it feel like I ought to be wearing pampers
    under them :>).  Any cures for this would be greatly appreciated!
    
    			-maureen
    

    
    Yup, Jan.  You have a 'raised' headstall.  (I know because I've seen
    it.) 
    
    What I meant by short boots, is... the kind of hunt boots that don't
    fit-- coming half way up your calf and bit enough you can carry a 
    rub rag and a grooming brush with you while you are riding ;-}.
    
    And yes, paddock boots are GREAT for making a fashion statement.

    
    One of my bridles is just the opposite...the cheekpieces are flat
    but the browband and noseband are rounded, braided leather. I have
    shown in it frequently....
    
    Remember a few years back when riding boots were in fashion under
    skirts?? I mean the tall black ones like we all wear in shows??
    Boy was THAT convienent!! :-)
    

    I know this is off the subject, but you really hit a button with
    me on the riding boots under the skirts....
    
    did you see that calvin klein had added jodphurs to his fall collection
    last year.  only trouble was that you could buy the real thing
    in tack stores for about $300-$500 cheaper.  and jodphurs are
    sooooooo flattering to those of us with child-bearin' hips.....
    
    jan
    

    Speaking of jodpurs...are they really coming back into style in
    the show ring?? I keep seeing them in all the mail-order catalogs
    I get (tons of 'em!), and I see them more in tack shops, too, right
    alongside the customary britches...but I have not yet seen anyone
    wearing them, either showing or just schooling...Gads my husband
    will kill me if I announce that I need new show clothes again this
    year!! :-)

    You can relax.  Jodphurs still aren't correct for adults in the
    show ring.  For kids, yes, or their parents would go broke buying
    new boots when their feet grew :>)
    
    They are nice for schooling and summer riding.
    

    
    Hmm...seems perhaps I have my terminology wrong...I meant jodpurs
    being the breeches with the flaired hips/thighs, like you see in
    the old movies, not jodpur boots, which I know to be ankle highs
    and very popular with the fashion concious non-horsey world. Makes
    me wonder, what ARE the flair legged pants called?? I thought that
    was what .18 meant, seeing as she mentioned child-bearing hips..:-)...
    I have no kids but I seem to be getting those hips anyways! :-)
    

    I know the feeling!
    
    Jodphurs (with or without flair) refer to long pants.  Breeches
    refer to the short kind.  Excessive flair is still "out" but
    then so are the really tight stretchy breeches that only look good
    on 14 year olds. 
    

	 Jodphurs are  those  things that you need to wear jodphur boots
     with  (and technically, jodphur straps just under the knee).  Those
     flair-leg things are called flared breeches, and they are breeches,
     just  another  style.   I think they're more in style for those who
     don't  do  'real'  showing (read event/rated, etc) but more for the
     'casual'  rider.  My opinion (and it's only that) is that since the
     majority  of  'show  riders'  have  the  figures  of  pre-pubescent
     children,  the flared breeches are going to be a while in returning
     to the show ring.

	 You can  sometines find breeches with various amounts of flare,
     so  if  you  want/need  the flare, you might be able to find a pair
     that is a compromise between the two styles.

    >the breeches with the flaired hips/thighs, like you see in
    >the old movies, not jodpur boots, which I know to be ankle highs
    >and very popular with the fashion concious non-horsey world. Makes
    >me wonder, what ARE the flair legged pants called??
    
    I have seen these often referred to as 'Field Pants'.

    Ugh. Which leads us to "field boots", the ones with the laces...I
    love those and want a pair desperately, but I gotta wear out my
    old ones (without laces) first before hubby will agree...and ideas
    as to how to wear out boots fast?? :-)
    
    

    
    	wearing out old boots.....
    
    	i'd wear them all the time while doing barn chores (make a couple
    	of trips thru the manure pile, puddles, mucky paddocks ect)
	Wear them while giving critters baths, washing cars....anyplace
    	you can come in contact w/ water and mud!
    
    	In no time the water will wear on the leather and you'll need new
    	ones......come to think of it, I always throw my reeboks in the 
    	washer and dryer when wahsing down jackets......

    
    HA HA! That WAS cute! I just may try it! :-) 'cept of course the
    washing cars part, I do not wash cars. I feel it is a sacrelige.
    I do however, wash my horse trailer regularly....
    

    Well here is a comment that will date me.  I did a lot of hunter/jumper
    showing throughout the '60's when Stubben's with suede knee rolls were
    in style.  I have a Stubben Sigfreid that I bought in 1966 and find it
    the best all around saddle for trail riding and hacking.  When I used
    to hunt a lot, I sat in it frequently for 3-5 hours at a time.  I would
    like to see some of these show hunt riders use their little flat
    saddles out hunting for 5 hours.
    
    As for the suede, I have never done anything to it and it still looks
    pretty good - considering the age.  Don't ever use saddle soap on the
    suede.
    
    I also own a Lucinda Green dressage saddle which is great, but when I
    just want to have a good time, I use my Sigfried.
    
    Diana
    

    
    re: -1
    
    WELLLLLLLLL, I happen to have a Prix de Nations (an older one) which I
    have gone trail riding in for hours and hours.  And hunted in.  And
    evented in.  Pretty comfortable. 
    
    And I have several friends in the Midwest who trail ride and hunt in
    their close contact saddles.
    
    But, I do have to agree that the Stubbens are WONDERFUL for hacking and
    trail riding.  I had one around for years that I used to break young
    horses.  And to school some of my 'saddle seat' type horses since it
    tended to be easier on their backs then the cutback Lane Fox type
    saddle.

    
    I own both a Stubben and a Hartley Apollo Flat. They both
    work out perfectly for their intended purposes. I wouldn't
    trade either one Knee-rolls and all. I have to say I woudn't
    show in the Stubben however..
    
    Marianne