Conference noted::equitation

    
    First,  I am no expert, so take this with a grain of salt.
    
    I remember reading somewhere that one technique to use on "barn
    sour" horses is to stop feeding them/working with them in the barn.
    No more meals in the barn.  To eat, he is ridden on a trail, and
    then fed.  All brushing/currying takes place outside of the barn/field.
    In other words, he has to leave his home to get what he wants.
    
    It sounds like it would be a pain to do, but is also sounds like
    there is a chance it may work.
    
    Sherry
    
    

    NO MORE BARN WORK SOUNDED LIKE A GOOD POSSIBILITY, IF HE WAS MY
    HORSE AND I THOUGHT HE WAS WORTH SPENDING THE TIME ON, I WOULD
    GO BACK TO THE GROUND, USE A BITTING HARNESS OR SOMETHING SIMILAR,
    FIND A GOOD HELPER EXPERIENCED WITH HORSES, ONE SHOULD LEAD AND
    USE THE CHAIN, AND THE OTHER SHOULD GROUND DRIVE HIM. DOES HE KICK??
    BE CAREFUL!  PROVIDING THE ONE LEADING CAN CONTROL HIM, YOU SHOULD
    BE ABLE TO TAKE HIM OUT OF THE RING AND WITH ALOT OF WORK GET HIM
    TO THE POINT WHERE HE'S RELAXED GOING BACK TO THE BARN. WHEN HE
    IS TRY SHORT RIDES OUT AND REWARD WHEN WARRANTED.  I'M ALSO NO
    EXPERT, THIS IS ONLY WHAT I WOULD TRY.  GOOD LUCK, KEEP US POSTED.

    There are usually reasons why horses do "things" out on trail. 
    
    For the first year I had my horse "JASPER" ( my horse was named
    for Jasper, Alberta), when I went trail riding, Jasper would get   
    very high, start tossing his head around, and get very strong -
    especially when we were heading back to the stable.  He is really
    good now, but it did take work, alot of ring work combined with
    trail work, to get him there. In fact, sometimes we would go riding
    to a field and do our "ring" work there. 
    One of the things that I learned over the years that I've had Jasper,
    is that ring work is not ended when you leave the ring. You still
    have to be as disciplined as you were back in the ring. If you don't
    want to do that, then the horse may not be the right one for your
    needs.
    
    A couple of suggestions : Take Jasper and walk him with a lead rope
    on some of the trails. See how he reacts then. I would also suggest
    keeping to a walk or a trot until he learns to listen to you and
    your aids(a.k.a. discipline). Ring work is so important for the
    horse learning to obey you. However it will take time so you have
    to decide whether it's worth it or not. One note, I would think
    that a more severe bit would just make your Jasper more rebelious.
    That's what my Jasper would do.
    
    Good - luck. It's depressing when your horse isn't what you wanted
    it to be.
    				Cindy
    
    

    One quick word of caution - be careful with a standing martingale
    on a horse that rears.  Make sure it is adjusted properly -
    specifically, not too short.  If it is too short, and he rears,
    he might lose his balance and fall - maybe on top of you.
    
    I don't envy you this situation!!  He sounds quite stubborn.  The
    dilemma is, how do you get him to *want* to cooperate?  It doesn't
    sound like more force is the answer.  I haven't had experience with
    this problem, so I can't offer alot of specific advice.  However,
    I have had experience with altering my own behavior so I am not
    a "wimp" but I am not too harsh either; neither extreme will get
    you very far in the long run.

    
    
    One of my horses got very difficult to handle.  I too went the
    harsher bit route which I know now is the worst thing you can do.
    The tougher the bit, the tougher my horse got and the reasoning
    is that the horse grows paranoid about being hurt or punished by
    a harsh bit.  I finally admitted that it wasn't my horse but
    something I was doing wrong which is a hard thing for someone
    to do after riding all their life.  I had ridden hunt seat all
    my life and my horse managed to run away with me, would not stop,
    and occasionally bucked me off whenever he pleased.  I veered
    away from forward seat riding and took balanced seat lessons.
    I learned how to sit properly on a horse with a straight back,
    shoulders back, and most important, how to control my horse with
    the movement of my back.  If you don't ride balanced seat this
    might not seem to be such a big deal but I found out that if you
    are not planted right in the saddle, it doesn't take much for your
    steed to get you off or take control of your ride.
    
    My instructor at Trailmare Riding Academy explained this theory
    to me.  He told  me that if a rider is seated properly the horse
    can not get his neck down low enough to get the strength to buck.
    My horse could so this meant I was not sitting properly and my
    snaffle bit was next to useless because I wasn't using it properly.
    If I was sitting properly, my horse could not take charge of the
    bit by getting his tongue over it. All my problems soon ceased
    and I threw out the kimberwick, the pelham, the Dr. Bristol, the
    twisted wire, and all the other harsh bits that couldn't fix my
    ownriding technique.  Thankfully, today, my horse is no longer able
    to take off with me, buck, or control me.  I guess it was worth
    facing the reality that the problem wasn't with my horse.  
    
    I know many other people that went through the same experience
    that I did and had perfectly behaved horses in the ring that
    they couldn't control on a trail.  Some of these horses were
    ridingschool horses, showhorses, or horses heavily ridden in a
    ring where they learned by rote and the rider really didn't have
    to know much of anything and the horse would perform by habit.
    Once out on the trail though, it was a different game, no
    fences, no rules.
    
    This note may seem highly critical of your skill versus your
    horse's behavior but I am just presenting another angle for you to look
    at your problem from. We've been brainwashed to believe that we
    need fancier and severer equipment for our horses rather than to
    step back and evaluate our own riding techniques that we have
    used.
    
    I'm glad I did.  It feels good to be able to go for a "pleasure"
    ride knowing I'm not going to be thrown or runaway with.
    
    Linda  
       

    As far as Jasper goes, I have walked him many times on the trail
    with a lead rope. A little over powering but not nearly as bad as
    when mounted. That's when he thinks he's got control of the scene.
    I had no choice but to change bits. He would grab hold of that snaffle
    and who knows where we would end up? At least with a curb combined
    with the chain he has no grip therefore he has no say. 
    
    He's not out to injure anyone as far as I can see. Has made no attemps
    to kick although  he does knip a little but I'm pretty sure it was
    hand fed treats he's looking for. We don't hand feed!
    
    It almost appears he wants to be left alone. When we return, he
    is all over you with his head, rubbing and pushing like he's glad
    it's ended and he can go about on his own.
    
    It's almost like "I don't want to work but I want food so where
    is it?" It comes down to this, if we cannot Jasper, how will we
    be able to control the next barn rat to arrive???
       

    I have come across a few horses that didn't like to leave home.
    While I was able to deal with them, these were cases where riding
    ability and strength count. It helped that I was 6 ft 5 and 220
    lbs. The key to it is immediate punishment for the horse when it
    disobeyed and immediate reward when it did what was asked. I have
    not found many horses that will not ultimately sell their soul for
    a bag of carrots. However there are a few that won't respond to
    positive reinforcement first. Not only do you want the horse to
    have a positive association with leaving the barn, it needs a negative
    association with rearing or disobedience, other wise it will do
    it again when asked to do something else it doesn't like.
    
    Remember that horses have very limited powers of association so that
    you must be quick. Any punishment must happen within two seconds of the
    transgression and only last for two seconds. It does no good to keep
    flailing away at the horse because it will forget what it doing to
    deserve the punishment. Similarly any reward must be equally quick.
    So, while the suggestion in -.1 may work, and its always best to
    try the positive before resorting to punishment, a "heavy hand"
    may be needed.
                                                        
    First of all you need to assess how good a rider you are before you
    attempt anything because an old sour horse can be dangerous. You must
    also pick the right place for a battle, with no obstructions rocks
    fence posts or anything else that could hurt you or your horse. One
    mare I remember resolutely refused to leave the barn area, and no
    potential reward would make her go forward. She would stop dead at the
    edge of the ring. Kicking her had no effect. When I used my stick she
    would spin round and try and head back to the barn. Coordinating
    stick, reins and legs and she couldn't turn, so she reared. 
    
    THIS IS WHERE IT CAN GET VERY DANGEROUS BECAUSE A REARING HORSE CAN GO
    OVER BACKWARDS AND FALL ON TOP OF THE RIDER. I have had a horse
    I was trying to reschool rear up and fall over backwards. I was
    practised enough in emergency dismounts to get off his back as he
    went over, so I was not hurt. The shock to the horse of falling
    over was sufficient to cure him of his behaviour.
    
    This mare didn't reach that point. She just continued to rear in place.
    A rearing horse should be made to move forward to go forward, so more
    coordinated leg, stick and rein. After about six iterations the mare
    did move forward in the direction I wanted her to go, so I did
    immediately rewarded her. I had no more problems that day but the
    next time I rode her out she refused to go, but we only went through
    three iterations of spinning, rearing, etc. After a couple more
    rides she gave up objecting entirely.
    
    There are a few horses that, for one reason or another, cannot be
    broken of their bad and dangerous habits. The only one I had like
    this I deliberately sent to the meat packers to get a pretty but
    dangerous Appaloosa out of circulation.  

    When I first bought my guy 8 years ago, he had a similar problem.
     He had been used as a event/dressage horse only.  He trailed as
    an exercise -- not for fun.  There were times he didn't want to
    leave the barn.  Coordination of crop, legs and seat got him moving
    (although very slowly in some cases)  Homeward bound he was raring
    to go -- dead gallop, thank you.  I spent a lot of time working
    with him and found various dressage movements helpful.  It's tough
    to run away when you're doing leg yielding, shoulder/haunches in/out,
    flex bending, etc.  He soon discovered that it was a lot nicer just
    walking in the way I wanted to.  There were days, however, that
    he didn't come in for hours before I had really planned.  He discovered
    that I was as stubborn as he and I did win.  The key is to figure
    out where he usually starts running, and start your exercises first.
     If his mind is real busy, he won't think about running home.  You
    are no longer fighting him, but "working" him and to his amazement,
    you're at the barn.
    
    Also, don't start with 2 hour trails -- plan a 10 minute one first.
     The idea is to get him out/in reasonably.  What happens in between
    is usually just the icing on the cake. (my opinion, at least).
    
    If you're not able to resolve your problems, try a pro before you
    try selling -- if you love him, it's worth the money you'll have
    invested in the training.  If the pro finds no trouble with the
    horse, you may find that you have already started anticipating
    problems, and therefore causing them.
    
    Just some thoughts -- no criticism.  Hope it all works for you and
    Jasper and I wish you luck.  I know I wouldn't want a horse that
    I couldn't trail even though we do still compete.  Besides, the
    trailing is good for his head!
    
    Dawn

    It sounds like you are indeed at the end of your rope, and justly
    so.  If you are not a really experienced rider, than by all means
    possible, send the brat to a trainer.  Don't try to do anything
    you are not entirly sure about.  A competent trainer can quickly
    iron out the problems, and work with you so that peace of mind can
    be re-established.  
    
    By working with a trainer you may get old Jasper to a point where
    he is re-sellable at that point you wouldn't feel guilty about
    unloading him.  Also with a trainer, he might know of a horse that
    would be just right for your abilities, or help you find one.
    
    Remember too, and this may sound cruel, you are in no way obligated
    to this animal, for that is all he is.  Your health and  peace of mind
    must come foremost.  If you really can't stand the situation any
    longer, than nail the shoes on another horse.  
    
    BE CAREFUL
    stephanie

    	The previous suggestions are all good sound advice,and I can't
    do better,but I know of something that worked for a friend in a
    similar situation,and I'll offer it for what it's worth.
    	What my friend did , was rather than ride the horse away from
    the barn,he put a little grain in his trailer,loaded the horse,and
    drove to a trailhead. Then he unloaded,saddled up and went for a
    ride. His horse was a little tense at first,then settled down. The
    idea seems to be that the horse no longer has a good sense of where
    home is,so doesn't know what direction to go. He then relies on
    your direction. In this case,after about a month of riding like
    this twice a week,each ride ending at the trailer, he got his wife
    to go with him,and he'd unload a few miles from hime,then take a
    leisurely ride home from a different place each time. After a while
    his horse straightened out,although it took about a year. Another
    thing that he did was never ride back directly to the barn. He always
    dismount a different place and some times walk back to the barn,and
    NEVER feed immediately upon arriving. Many times,he'd dismount,walk
    the horse over to a hitching post,and tie him for an hour or so
    before putting him up.  The varied routine seemed to make the horse
    realize that the ride never ends at the barn.
    
    	Just some ideas for what they're worth,
    
    		George
    

    All of the previous replies sound like good solutions and sage advice
    expecially for rearing.  You should examine your riding skills well
    to see if that may be part of the problem.  My experience has been
    that people who have problems such as yours are frustrated because
    they aren't sure what to do.  Usually the horse can figure that
    out and is quick to exploit you.  I'd recommend that you find a
    trainer that likes to trail ride and explain your problem.  They
    may be able to take the horse for a month or so and get back on
    the right foot.  You can then take a few lessons on what to look
    for and how to correct it.
    
    Regards,
    
    Bob
    

    Just wondering, is Jasper still with you? If so how is he doing?
    
    Sandy