Conference noted::equitation

    I am slightly embarassed to ask this question, but here goes:
    
    I was wondering how Draft horses related to each other in size.
    i.e. Which Draft horse is larger than which other Draft horse?
    
    		Thanks for the info
    
    			Paul R. Haust

    From the top:
    		Shire
    		Clydesdale	Belgian
    		Percheron
    		Suffolk Punch
    		Then there are a whole bunch of European breeds which
    		are roughly the same size.
    
    "Show" Draft Horses are being bred for size no matter what breed.
    Real working draft horses tend to be a bit smaller and a bit more
    agile. There are draft breeds which are pony sized. Last trip back
    to England I came across a team, which if I remember correctly came
    from Alsace. They looked like a cross between a Suffolk Punch and
    a Dachshund; great big barrel body on very short legs.
    

	I agree with the size ranking given in reply .3. The comment 
concerning breeding for size is also correct but a fact I find interesting
since it brings us full circle in fifty years.
	In the US the Percheron and Belgian horses are being bred to be
taller and heavier than in the past. This is because the larger horses are
in demand as show animals and for hitch horses. The big horses are also used
to feed cattle in the west.
	Prior to World War I, were used in cities and towns to haul delivery
wagons. From these origins came the first American show hitches. The hitches
from "Packing Town" were the best and most famous including the Swift Hitch
of grays with Billy Whales driving.
	Much smaller horses were used on farm teams. The average horse in a
farm team probably weighed less than 1200 lbs. Farmers found smaller, athletic 
horses more desirable than the big ton horses.
	After World War I, trucks replaced horses in the cities and towns but
horses were still used on the farms. Due to the decline in the demand for big
horses, Belgian and Percheron breeders bred for the smaller, athletic geldings
the farmers favored. The Shire breeders, however, never varied from the Shire
standard of feathered feet, 17h and 2000lb. Farmers also did not care for the
feathers or the 17h (try throwing a leather harness up on a Shire sometime
and you'll understand why). Consequently, as the Belgian and Percheron breeds
declined in size and weight the Shires declined in numbers. The Shire breed
bottomed out with about 30 registered Shire breeding stock in the US.
	After tractors replaced horses on the farm the Belgian and Percheron
breeds followed the Shires in decline. The Amish, horse loggers, pullers,
and a few diehards kept the breeds going until the rest of the nation learned
that a bigger tractor isn't the solution to every problem. 
	Today there are over 600 registered Shires in the US and they still 
meet the Shire standards in color, feathers, weight and size. I'm glad they
made it, the world would be a lesser place without the horses of Camelot.

    There are at least three noters in the US who have a liking for
    heavy horses. I'll let the others reply for themselves. It depends
    on the area in the US as to what heavy breed is popular. In New
    England, Clydesdales, Belgians and Percherons can be found but
    relatively few Shires. Out in the Mid West, I believe, Shires are
    more common. I have not come across a Suffolk Punch in the US so
    far. I am biased towards Percherons because I own one and am teaching
    him to drive.
    
    There are a number of Heavy Horse clubs in North America. In New
    England there is the Eastern New England Draft Horse Association
    and the Yankee Draft Horse Association. The YHDA puts on a Draft
    Horse Show every fall/autumn at the Topsfield Fair, north of Boston.
    Horse Pulling, as opposed to plowing/ploughing contests are the
    "sport" here with Heavy Horses. 
    
    Since Digital pays me to go to Reading every quarter, I try and
    go to whatever heavy horse activity is going on at the time I am
    there. I have miles of movie film of the Southern Counties Heavy
    Horse Association Ploughing Championships in 1985. I also caught
    the London Harness Horse Parade last easter. One thing US Heavy
    Horse owners still have to learn is how to decorate a harness. Since
    most of the harness available here is made by the Amish in Pennsylvania
    and Ohio, and they shun ostentation, it's rather difficult to hang
    any brasses or other trimmings on it.
    
    I now let the other Draft Horse fans have their say.         

    There are a few breeding farms in the New England area that use
    Percherons in their breeding programs, crossing them with Thoroughbreds
    to produce the American Sport Horse.  This cross is designed to
    compete with the European warmbloods in eventing and dressage. 
    I'd be interested in finding out if anyone trains these 'gentle
    giants' to be ridden, and if so do they find them very difficult
    to work with or is it so impossible to try and get them to listen
    to your leg aids (way up on their sides)?

    
    
    just a quickie... just a few miles from me there lives a couple
    who have a suffolk punch stallion - and i believe at least two
    mares.  they also have other horses, she teaches dressage, he's
    a 'retired' blacksmith (unfortunately since he was one of the
    best).  his name is Carl Guinzel and he lives in Nobleboro Maine.
    I think he got his suffolks from Iowa (?).. Let me know if there's
    a need to get in touch w/him and I can help.  regards - holly
    butterman @ DNEAST::BUTTERMAN_HO

    
    Re: .2
    
    A quick response - NO, the draft/thoroughbred crosses tend to be
    much easier to train than, for example, a full thoroughbred.  I
    trained several percheron/thoroughbred /saddlebred and /quarter
    crosses - mostly for cross-country work.  They typically are
    extremely kind and willing to learn.
    
    A funny story - I trained a perch/thoroughbred cross nicknamed
    "O'Toole" - the hardest thing to teach him to do was longe.
    Every time I would say "whoa", he would stand still for all of
    3 seconds, then (rather sheepishly) sneak toward me for some
    petting!!  It was almost impossible to get him to stop - how
    do you scold a horse for being affectionate?!?  I finally
    got around it by walking quickly toward HIM, before he got a
    chance to cut in - giving him the longed-for petting of course.
    
    I taught a lot of kids' jumping classes on these horses, and
    prefer them - in spite of their generally large size - to all
    the large pony jumpers.  They are much kinder and thus
    SAFER!  It's also handy to have a saddle horse that will go
    equally well in harness (O'Toole used to haul firewood in the
    winter!), and could even pull my volkswagon out of a snowbank!
    
    Diana

    re: .4
    These gentle giants are extroadinary(sp) for their size.
    
    That's one hell of a tow truck you have there. 
    

    Steve_still_loves_his_Arab.
    
    

    The number of draft horses in the US suffered a steady deline from
    the end of World War II until the mid 1970's. In 1975 there were
    only 30 registered Shires left in the US and only a handfull of
    Suffolks. 
    
    The Belgian and Percheron horses did alittle better than the Shires
    and Suffolks because they were used and bred by horse loggers, Amish
    farmers and horse pullers. The Belgians and Percherons have also
    done better during the recovery because breeding stock is available
    and therefore the prices less.
    
    Today there are still only about 300 Suffolk horses in the US and
    Canada. The Shires have done better since they are more flashy and
    attract show people. The recovery will be long and slow because
    of the cost of importing stock.
    
    As one who has earned a living much of his life with horses, I can
    tell you that the Suffolk horse deserves high praise. He is a will
    worker, is a fast walker, easy keeper, enjoyes a long life, is strong
    and has alot of heart. The more I see the Belgians being bred for
    high strung hitch animals the better the Suffolk looks to me.
    

    
    	Hi Tyke!!  Good ta hear frum ya agin'!
    
    	We went to Disney World for our vacation last fall and (of course)
    	I dragged ma "non-horsey hubby" over to look at the Western
    	camping area.  They use alot of draft horses throughout Disney
    	World and I wanted to find out more...  We went to their big
    	Barn and gawked and stared at all of the different types of
    	horses that they had.  They also have an award winning team
    	of Percherons and they use them in the Western camping area
    	too...  I asked the driver about the shoeing for those "big
    	guys" and she said that they are specially shod with a type
    	of rubber...  every one to two weeks!!  That cost for the 
    	shoes alone is $80.00!!!!  But they do take excellent care
    	of them... they are only allowed so many hours to work then
    	they are rested in their large box stalls... with huge ceiling
    	fans blowing gentle breezes 'round and round.... I wuz thinkin'
    	of movin' in but ma hubby wuz too willin' ta help me do jus
    	that!
    
    	Do you know you can also adopt burros from Disney World too?
    	They have a wide collection of horses..  Mini horses, quarter
    	horses, I even saw an Overo Paint (just being trained to drive).
    
    	Susan

    re .3
    Holly, where do you live?  I know Carl Guinzel and Mary O'Roarke
    very well, I lived in Damariscotta all my life until I moved down
    to Massachusetts last year.  They have the most beautiful horses!
    Mary used to help me a lot with my riding, and I borrowed her Passier
    saddle for years until I bought my own. 
    
    I may have seen you at shows if you show your Morgans - I used to
    show the Studleys morgans, from Nobleboro, when I was in high school.
    What are your horses names - I'll see if I recognize them...
    
    Anyway, the Guinzels used to have two gorgeous suffolk geldings.
    They were so graceful for such an enormous animal!  Do they still
    have them?
    

    
    
    Well Hi there.. I live in Washington, and probably should know
    you and have known Jack and Grayce for years! I have Dear Lees
    Abigail, RumBrook Victoria and her 2 yr old daughter Buffmeadow
    Brookw by Meadowbrook Comet.  "Torie" is bred to Elm Hill High
    Hat for an early March foal.  Carl and Mary are expecting a baby!
    I use to work for Skip Hart 10 years ago and we showed with the
    Studleys all over the place - ahh the good ole days - smiles - h

Thanks to every one who has taken the time and trouble to reply
to this note.   

It's reassuring to find that the heavy breeds are gaining popularity
elsewhere.  I was interested to note that the emphasis in some parts 
is on their power rather than skill (for want of better words).
For those people that have knowledge of this art, is there preference
to a different shape horse than that used for working the land, pulling 
carts etc ?

re. 2
I know of Shires that have been broken to saddle and regularly ridden,
but this has been more for the convenience of exercising than anything
else.  There was an article recently in one of my magazines that described
how one 'wee lass' regularly worked and rode a shire.  It was, if my
memory serves me right, also pointed out that the horse did have to wear
quite a bit of additional harness in the form of martingales etc.
This was by way of an insurance policy.  A ton of excited horse would be
quite a handful.

As to applying any aids, in particular those from the leg would be a problem
for any one.  Therefore I suppose conventual schooling would be difficult.
There must be ways round this.  I've seen some very successful disabled 
dressage riders who for one reason or another have not been able to apply 
leg aids as we know and understand them.  Also, as I've been reminded,
side saddle riders have only one leg with which to 'issue instructions'.  
So...... It should be possible. Does anyone know if it has been done ?


re .6
You talk about Belgian horses, are these the ones we know as Ardenne's
(sp ?) over here.  If they are I'm very surprized, as these are not
noted for being excitable.  Like the Suffolk, they are quite a stocky
horse and are either black or brown in colour.  There is some argument 
over one of the colours not being recognised some where.  I'll have to 
look that one up. (Old age creeps on...).

re .1
If ever you have some free time during your quarterly visits and 
would like to talk horses, please contact me.  I currently work at
Acre Road, Reading and would be glad of the opportunity to exchange
thoughts and ideas.  Depending on the time of year, may also be able 
to point you in the direction of suitable shows etc.

I can be contacted via VAXMAIL on  RDGE43::HARWOOD or my phone number
is 830-4392

(This offer applies to anyone who might find themselves in Reading U.K.)


Judy.

    

    	Just saw your note,and thought I'd throw my two cents' worth
    in. I'm in Colorado,and draft horses are much more popular here
    than they are back east. Many ranches use them for various tasks.
    One of the most common is feeding cattle in winter. The big horses
    can haul a wagon or sleigh loaded through snow far better than a
    tractor. Belgians,Clydesdales and Percherons are quite common,and
    there's a breeder of Shires about fifteen miles East of Colorado
    Springs.
    	There are many draft horse shows here which include halter,driving
    and pulling competitions. Hitches of large horses are also a big
    attraction at fairs and rodeos. For instance,the National Western
    Stock Show which was held in January featured the famous Budweiser
    Clydesdales,and a six-up hitch of Percherons pulling a Heinz pickle
    wagon. As a contrast,Domino's Pizza Company had a six-up hitch of
    miniature horses. Coor's beer company also sponsors a six-up hitch
    of Belgians that are as impressive as the Budweiser Clydesdales.
    	I have Appaloosas and a quarter horse,but I've worked with Belgians
    and Clydesdales as well as several grade draft types,and I enjoyed
    them immensely. I hope to get one or two someday,even if just to
    have them around.
    
    	George
    

     Yes, there are many of us in Colorado who like something besides
    cow ponies.  We are currently breeding Friesians.  For those of
    you who have not had the pleasure of being around a truely gentle
    giant, the Friesian horse is the only one you should consider.
    
    We currently have a 4 week old colt sired by one of only 5 approved
    stallions in the U.S. We have the only Friesians currently in Colorado
    but would like to expand the number of these horse both here and
    throughout the U.S.  The majority of the Friesian Horses in the
    U.S. are in Ca.  I believe there are less than 200 in the U.S.
    
    As far as European shows, please send me dates and scheduled horses
    as I will be in Europe and the U.K. in late March.  Send to:
    Genral::ARCHAMBEAULT
    
    Dan

    re: .12
    I didn't know there were any of this breed in Colo.. I would like
    to get in touch with you about seeing & talking of the breed. Have
    never seen them before, etc. . Talk to you later on.
    
                                                             Steve
    
    
    
    

re .12

This is where I have to show my ignorance and confess that until now,
if anyone had mentioned Friesians to me, I would automatically think of 
cattle.  (Hope no one takes offence as none is intended)

I would very much like to know more about them.  
Pictures are obviously out of the question which makes things a little 
difficult, but if anyone has the time and the inclination a description 
would be greatly appreciated.

Is it possible that we know the breed by another name over here ?

Judy

    

    The Friesian breed has been around since 1000 B.C.   During the
    17th century they were used to carry knights throughout Europe.
    At the end of W.W. II there were only 5 stallions left and breeders
    in Holland saved the breed by the use of Oldenburg Stallions.  The
    Friesian horse is noted for its long tail, feathered hoofs, and
    exclusive black color.  Further, these horses have a high step when
    running (not a gated horse) and are EXTREMELY gentle.  I suspect
    that the number of Friesians in Europe is larger than in the U.S.
    but they are not commonplace.  
    
    The fact that you thought of cattle reflects the fact that the Friesian
    horse and the cattle breed originate from the same area in Holland,
    ...Friesland.   The only place I have seen pictures is in books
    describing all breeds of horses or in a movie released in the U.S.
    about 1.5 years ago titled "Lady Hawk" (not positive on the spelling)
    
    Hope this helps and thanks for the interest.
    
    Dan

    re: .15
    Dan, this breed sounds very interesting, it has a lot of heratege(sp)
    & history like the Arabian breed. Would be interested in seeing
    one of them if you have one around the C. Springs area. 
    Will have to read up on this.
                                                              Steve
    
    
    

I currently have two Friesians in the Black Forest (Colorado).  A four
    year old mare and a 5 week old colt.  I would be happy to show you
    our horses.  In fact, the colt is for sale....anyone interested?
    His blood lines are some of the best in the world.  Sire is an approved
    and certified stallion, dam is a registered and soon to be upgraded
    mare.  In fact, thm's sister was the Grand National Champion. 
    Call me at DTN 522-3445 or at home at 495-0255 and let me know when
    you would like to see our Frie
    

    re: .17
    Will talk to my wife & see how the time schedule is. Will call you
    if we can get loose for a few hours.
    
                                                       Steve
    
    
    
    

    re. 12
    
    I finally got myself organised enough to send a MAIL, but
    have experienced difficulties.  Don't know which end was
    responsible.  
    Hopefully things have now sorted themselves out and you will
    recieve the message sent.  
    At your convenience, I would appreciate knowing whether or
    not the message reached you.  
    
    If you're still interested in show dates please let me know.
    
    Judy.
    
    

Can anyone provide me with any information on the Canadian-Belgian
breed of heavy horse.

One of our monthly magazines has just reported that two Canadian-
Belgian mares have been imported to this country.  It is believed
that these are the first of their breed in Europe.

The very short article makes reference to the fact that this breed 
was developed from the Belgian heavy horse which was shipped to Canada 
in the 19th century.

As it is likely to be a few months before I can visit the Dorset Heavy 
Horse Center which is now their home, I would be very interested in learning
more about them.
    
Many thanks
    
    Judy
    

    RE. 20
    
    JUDY,
    
    The Canadien/American Belgian is far different from the Belgium
    Belgian, or the Ardennes offshoot that you may be familiar with.
    The Canadian/American Belgian was developed to be taller, larger,
    less feather, and has more action when running than its Belgium
    ancestor. It is really a separate breed and should be classified
    as such. Here in New England we have a family in Orwell, VT. that
    still imports/breeds Belgium Belgians and cross-breeds to
    Canadian/American Belgians. The typical Canadian/American Belgian
    stands 17-18-hh and weighs 1700-2500 lbs.
    
    I am presently involved with breeding/training/showing
    Canadian/American Belgians. When I first started, the biggest problem
    I had was locating sources of information. There are 2 main quarterly
    publications devoted to draft horses in the States:
    
    	1/ Draft Horse Journal, Waverly, Iowa. - concentrates on
    shows/breeding
    
    	2/ Small Farm Journal - advocates farming with draft horses.
    
    If anyone needs specific information, I will be glad to share anything
    I may be familiar with.
    
    There is also a British publication that I subscribe to -
    "The Heavy Horse World".
    
    Let's try to get more discussion going about draft horses.
    
    Regards,
    
    bob
    

    Hi,
    I am new to this notes file and have a keen interest in draft horses
    as well as any horse that can be used for pulling/plowing/farm work.
    I had heard that Morgans once were used for farm work but the ones
    I've seen lately would be lucky if they knew which end of the plow
    to hitch to!  Is this the case with all Morgans?  Also I have seen
    ads in EQUUS for the Norwegian Fjord Horse saying they are both
    riding and driving horses.  Does anyone know about this breed?
    
    On another vein, I have about 24 acres of pasture land in Western
    MA that needs mowing to keep it as pasture.  Does anyone know of
    people in the area that have horses and would be willing to use
    them to mow?  
    
    Yet another question.  How does one tell the difference between
    a Suffolk and a Belgian?  I've seen several pairs of chestnut horses
    at horse pulls in Cummington and always thought they were Belgians
    but now I remember that Suffolks are also chestnut(?)
    
    Thanks - I'm glad I founf this file!
    
    Dana 

    My Morgan plows just fine.  And does some logging on the side, too.
    In previous lives she was an event horse and a park horse.
    She's the "old style" morgan - very short, stocky and strong.  And
    she doesn't eat nearly as much as the draft breeds.
    
    -Maureen
    

    	re.23,,Maureen, I had a Morgan mare just like you describe when
    I lived in Taxachusetts. She was a gem. I wish they still made most
    of tham like that.
    
    	George
    

     Is anyone aware of any horse pull competitions in the MA/New England 
     area in the next few weeks (at county fairs, perhaps)?  I have some 
     visitors from Germany who would like to see the gentle giants working.
    
     Thanks,
    
     Sarah

    
    
    I believe the Cheshire Fair is this week.  There has been horse and
    ox pulling there in the past.  The fair is located just south of Keene
    in East Swansy (sp?).
    
    In the past the fair started the last weekend of July and ran thru
    the first weekend in August. Sorry I don't have a schedule.
    
    Dani
    

    I had to say something on the subject of the Shire.  Rather a sad
    story I'm afraid.
    Andy the shire, he is known as to every one at the stables.  He
    lives in the field where my own horse is kept, along with many more.
    But the person who owns the field is the culpret who owns Andy.
    He is the Friendlist shire I have ever come across, and manages
    to tug at the heart strings of every one who keeps there horse in
    this field.  The owner obviously hasn't seen to him in years, although
    he looks well and seems happy, his mane is matted and his feet are
    very overgrown.  What can I do?  not a lot,  the owner is a bit
    strange and if the wrong thing is said to him, he is likely to send
    Andy to the knackers yard.  I'm trying to do what I can, and one
    day, I will make sure Andy is well groomed, fed, and very very happy.
    helena sedgwick
    

    re :-2
    
    There is a publication called the New England Farm Bulletin & Garden
    Gazette.  It comes out roughly twice a month and has listings of
    activities.
    
    Once a year they publish the 'Farmer/Consumer Connection', a compendium
    of information which includes all the known ag fairs, some of which
    have draft horse competitions.
    
    Subscription info:
    
    New England Farm Bulletin
    Box 147
    Cohasset, MA 02025
    
    Subscription terms are:
    1 year, $15
    2 years, $28
    3 years, $40
    
    They don't bill so include your check.

    Also there's a draft horse show in Northampton (I think) on September
    7th (A wednesday) - I just saw the poster for it while at the
    Cummington Fair this past weekend and I didn't take a good look
    at it...
    
    Dana
    

    re .21
    
    Bob, do you have the addresses of the draft horse journal, the small
    farm journal, and the heavy horse world?  I tried sending mail to
    the address in your reply but got 'no such user'.
    
    Dana

    Here are the addresses for the Draft Horse Publications:
    
    Small Farmers Journal
    P.O. Box 2805
    Eugene, Oregon 97402
    
    The Draft Horse Journal
    P.O.Box 670
    Waverly, Iowa 50677
    
    The Heavy Horse
    Woodlands, Warminghurst
    Storrington, West Sussex RH20 3HG
    England
    
    
    I get both the Small Farmers Journal and the Draft Horse Journal
    and find them both to be excellant.  I have never seen the Heavy
    Horse and would be intereset in finding out if it is worth getting.
    
    God Luck
    
    Dave Lindsey

    Just an update to the previous note (199.30).
    The publication 'The Heavy Horse' is now called
    'Heavy Horse World' and the subscription details 
    are :-
    
    Heavy Horse World.
    Park Cottage,
    West Dean,
    Chichester,
    West Sussex
    PO18 0RX.
    U.K.
    
    Judy
    

    Hi,
    
    Thanks very much for the info.
    
    Dana

    I'm very interested in learning more about the Friesian breed. If
    there's anyone in the New England area that can guide me towards
    owners or breeders in the area I'd appreciate it. 
    
    As mentioned in an earlier note, the horse in the movie "Lady Hawk"
    was a Friesian and I've been trying to find some ever since. Perhaps
    I'll have to plan a trip to Holland. 
    
    Has anyone out there ever riden one? The gait looks as if it would
    be very smooth. I have always riden English in the past but am now
    learning Western, does the Friesian go better under English or Western?
    
    Please contact: DTN: 297-7699
                    Mail stop: MRO1-3/LP7
                    Home: (508) 529-4472
    
                    Cheri Ezell
    

	If you're serious about planning a trip to Holland, I can
	give you the name of a reputable dealer there who could
	surely locate you Friesans.   Plan ~3300.00 to import a
	gelding from Amsterdam to NYC (mares & stallions cost
	more).

	Melinda

    
    I was flipping thru my Yankee Pedlar last night and noticed some
    articles or information on the Friesan Breed. Sorry, can't say 
    anything more as I wasn't really reading thru..
    
    Marianne
    

    I've noticed that this note has not been accessed in quite a while
    and was wondering if all those Gentle Giant fans out there have
    disappered...
    
    I'm interested in finding out more about where to find draft horse
    shows in the area, local breeders [New England area] and such.
    
    Anyone out there still want to talk Draft horse??
    
    Lorna
    

    The draft horse fans are still around (I think, at least I am). The
    Yankee Draft Horse Association is still active in New England, as is
    the Hudson Valley Draft Horse Association in New York State. 
    
    There will be a Plowing Match in Lee, New Hampshire, on Saturday April
    28th, sponsored by the YHDA.  

    Well its good to know that there are still people out there that
    are active with their gentle giants...
    
    Do you by chance have the addresses for the associations that you
    mentioned??
    
    Thanks for whatever information that you can spare.
    
    Lorna
    

    I went to the plowing contest in Lee, N.H. , brought back some early
    boyhood memories of watching an old-timer using his tools in the
    newer world of "fast pace" mechanization. 
    
    Your eyes can't help notice there's something special watching the
    the man in overalls work with his team as a unit. Kinda bond you
    don't see much between man and animal these days, it's missing I'd
    say. 
    
    My interest has got me hooked to learn more and more. From observation
    there's much to know about working the horses and not to mention
    the equipment being used, which to me is fascinating in itself.
     
    A man with the right temperament could do a good piece of work in
    a different mind set, which agrees with me...You can listen to your
    own gears grind...
    
    Does any one out there know if there might be some Suffolks at the
    Downeast Show in Maine.[June 15, 16, 17th]  Also is there any 
    Suffolk experienced handlers out there that would like to share
    your thoughts and opinions on the breed...
    
    I'm really interested in the Suffolk....looks good for a small
    farm...
    
    Mike...          
                                                          

    
    	Mike... my x-blacksmith (he gave it up because he wanted to
    	save his back, and he's very back to the land) use to (and I
    	think still does) raise Suffolk "Punch" horses...
    
    	His  name is Karl Guinzel, and he lives in Nobleboro, Maine.
    	I imagine you can get his phone number from information.....
    	His wife teaches and rides dressage.
    
    

    Thank you...for the responce and information, we will try to contact
    Karl. Are you actively involve with draft horses..? 

    Are there many Suffolk breeders here in the New England area, I
    know of Karl of Nobleboro, Maine , but are there others numbers
    out there....
    
    Also does anyone out there have some good suggestions on literture
    to read on drafting, horses and equipment....
    
                                                        Thanks...

    RE: .46
    
    There are two books I have found very informative and helpful in
    learning about draft horses......
               The Draft Horse Primer by Maurice Telleen
                The Work Horse Handbook by Lynn Miller
    
    These books can be found at Wild As The Wind Farm in Upton, Mass.
    (508) 529-6278 and/or Meader's Draft Horse Supply in Rochester, N.H.
    (603) 332-3032.  These folks may also know of Suffolk breeders in
    New England.  Hope this will be helpful to you.
    
    

    
    Thank you for the information..I'll look into these books...

    I thought i would my two cents worth in, because i would like to see
    more activity in this draft horse note. I live up in Sidney,Maine and
    i own a registerd percheron #257430 he is 8 years old and i had him
    know for 4 years. previous i had a belgian gelding for 3 years.I work
    him in the woods quite often and i also pull a sleigh in the winter.
    Last year i really got ambitious and broke him to a draft cart. I did
    not do to bad for a green horn, he responded very well and i might show
    him this year in the cart classes around some local fairs. I really
    injoy working with draft horses and i look forward to get more involved
    with then in the future. Sorry i forgot to mention his size, he stands
    16.3 h and weights 1900 lbs.
    
                                           Greg Dostie
    
                                             ASO 271-6513

    ANY OF YOU DRAFT HORSE PEOPLE HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WITH SHOEING DRAFT
    HORSES? I HAVE AN EIGHT YEAR PERCHERON GELDING THAT I AM TRAINNING
    ON DRAFT CART, IAM PUTTING A LOT ON TIME ON TAR ROADS, SOMETIMES GOING
    7 TO 8 MILES A RIDE. MY QUESTION IS WHAT KIND OF SHOES SHOULD I BE 
    USING, STEEL SLIPPER OR RUBBER ? MY FARRIOR DOES NOT HAVE MUCH
    EXPERIENCE IN THIS AREA.

    My blacksmith doesn't like rubber shoes because he says they don't
    offer any support to the hoof, plus they wear out quickly.  If I 
    were you, driving on tar I, would use steel shoes with rim pads.

	I had the opportunity to ride a Clydesdale stud yesterday, and 
	it was so exciting!  In fact, when I get the space, I want to
	buy one!

	I've always loved the looks of one, but to see my boyfriend
	cantering around the ring on Buster (the stud)...it was too
	beautiful for words!  And he said the same as he watched me 
	on Buster.  It's funny, you can't appreciate the beauty of an 
	animal until you see it in action (as opposed to just riding it).

	The studs temperament was ideal, 5-6 young girls were practicing
	braiding his tail, grooming him, walking under him....and for
	at least and hour.  Buster just stood there and was sooo patient!

	The farm, Mega Clydesdales, is in Sudbury MA.  There are 9 
	Clydesdales there.  7 belong to Al Clark and the other 2 are 
	boarders.  He has a yearling and a mare for sale, and of course
    	stud service.
    
    	Michele

    Thanks...I finally made time to go to Wild as the Wind Farm, the
    place is a museum of old and some new...Phil was very helpful. 
        Thanks again.....Mike

    Does anyone know of any up coming drafting events in the Massachusetts
    area...?

    RE: .54
    
    Thompson, Conn.   Sunday July 15   Thompson Speedway    203-923-9591
    
    Framingham, Ma.   Sunday Aug. 5    Sunshine Farm
                                       135 Kendall Ave.     508-655-5022
    
    Hopkinton, NH.    Friday Aug 31(show) Fairgrouonds      603-428-7732
                      Sat. Sept. 1(log skid)    
    
    Northampton, Ma.  Wed. Sept. 5     Fairgrounds          413-296-4413
    
    Big E
    West Springfield, Ma.  Tues. Sept. 18  Fairgrounds      413-737-BIGE
    
    Topsfield, Ma.    Oct. 6, 7, 8     Fairgrounds             N/A
    
    

    Thanks to the two prior notes, looks like we're off to Thompson
    to learn & see more of drafting these big guys...
    
    Thanks again...Mike.....

    There is a gentleman in town...Sterling Massachusetts...who has or had
    very recently a couple of Belgians.  His name is Roger Pillsbury...508-
    422-7718.  He may be able to steer you in the right direction.  At one
    time I believe he cut his hay with them.
    
    Good luck
    

    I figured I'd stir up this note...by sharing some new news...the
    addition to the family, a Suffolk Punch Colt..."Chester."
    
    Coming to his new home sometime in November, we're excited.
    
    This should be enough time to re-organize his new living quarters.
    Changing an old box-stall area into luxury tie-stalls...fun. We
    researched ourselfs to death and feel we have done the right move
    on his selection.
    
    Also enough time to educate, train and secure good equipment for
    his future participation on the farm...and mine.
    
    Plan for another next year....whata think...gang..!
    
    

    Great enough that I'd like to come meet Chester...
    
    But you're probably in East Foo someplace  :-(
    
    XCUSME::  is in Merrimack, NH
    
    
    Cheryl

    Went to the three annual drafthorse show in North Hampton MA...and
    were again impressed with the Haflingers...
    
    Any noters experienced working with these horses...?...Want some
    imput from others.....

I haven't been in this conference for a long time - now that I've got a
little breathing room I'm hapy to hear that all ye old draught horse enthusiasts
are still out there - and a Punch has come home!!  

Out in western MA where my farm-to-be is, the favorite breed is Belgian, with a
few percherons around for color.  There's a pair of clydesdale-like horses that 
I pass in Goshen - could be shires - they're about 17H, almost black with white
legs, faces, and FEATHERS.  Big old boys - they sugar in the winter and log a
little in the summer.

There was a plowing contest in Dalton a few weekends ago - nice little pair of 
Haflingers were my favorites, although we didn't get to stay too long.  We were
on our way to get parts for the tractor before the parts place closed!!! 

If anyone has info on New ENgland draft horse activities I'd love to hear about 
them.

Dana

    Re .62 
    
    You can go visit the Hallamore Clydesdale Farm (FREE!) in
    Lakeville, MA.  This farm sells and imports Clydes for wagon
    pulling, and sells some of them to Budweiser.
    
    And The Budweiser Clydesdales are located in NH (I think?) and
    can also be viewed.  Probably by appointment......
    
    Lynne

    The Budweiser Clysdales are in Merrimack NH, on Rte 3A. It's open
    most days, free to the public, no appointment neccessary, with
    something like hourly tours. Take your chances whether or not the
    whole team is there, they travel a lot, but there are always at
    least a few youngsters around the place. (At least I think it is
    free, it was the time I went years ago.).
    

    Hi Dana...There is some draft-horse activities this weekend..[Saturday
    10AM-4PM]..at the Heifer Project in Rutland, MA...It's located a
    couple miles north of Rt..122A..[Jefferson]....off Rt 68...right
    at yellow caution light...Then about a mile on the right...I guess
    there will be plowing contest and etc...
    
    The Punch...is doing well...Mike...
                            

    Another Punch has arrive...Rosie...a 3 year old...she has the same
    temperment as the colt...great...!

    Hi All,
    
    There's a draft horse show at the Northampton Fair Grounds all day
    Wednesday September 4th.  The Northampton Fairgrounds are visible from
    rt 91 round exit 19.  I've never been to this show before but I hear
    it's a nice day.  The way I would get there is take the Mass Pike to
    exit 4 (rt 91), take rt 91 north to exit 19, at the end of the ramp
    take a left.  The fairground entrance is on the left a little ways
    down 
    Went to the horse pull at the Cummington Fair this past weekend - 7-10
    teams in each class (<2900,2900-3300,>3300).  Nice to see so many
    horses out for the day.
    
    Dana

    I went to the Skowhegan fair a couple of weeks ago, in the sweepstakes
    horse pulling class a team of draft horses pulled a 9000lbs load on a
    dry boat 440 feet!  The team weight was 3800lb.
    
                                                        Greg

    Is there any interest in drafts...out-there...haven't seen any response
    for quite some-time...?
    
    
    

    Long for some discussions on drafts...199 conference is dead...are
    there many of you that read the notes...?
    
    I have Suffolk-Punch drafthorses...18 month colt @ 16.2H...a 3-1/2
    year-old mare...with a week-old filly..{Ginger}..Gindy was 11 hands,
    170lbs at birth...my first delivery...!
    
    I've beening ground-driving the colt...and going to start some small
    chores with him soon...bringing in some firewood...
    
    I like them all...!...Just felt more for these guys when shopping...?
    
    Any events in the N.E. area comin' up...?
    
    
                                                          Mike...
    
    

    
    	Mike,  I have seen a lot of things about Drafts in the Pedlar
    	and the Northeast Equine Journal. Both list upcoming events,
    	you could take a look to find draft events and there might be
    	some mention on local draft associations (you're in SHR?). Do
    	you read either one of these magazines?
    
    	Sherry
    

    I am quite fond of draft horses, although actual experience with or
    around them have been borderline to nil.  The bigger the better.
    
    kim

    UP here in Maine, I have started to twitch out fire wood with Rowdy,
    he came out winter weighing around 2000lbs. I hope to get him down to
    1800lbs for summer, hope to enter a few cart classes this summer.
    
    
                                                Greg

    Believe it or not, I'm a draft horse fan too. I love Percherons. We
    actually have some experience with draft horses. About 16 years ago,
    Jan and I went to a darft horse workshop run by Ken Demers. At the
    time, we had this fantasy about farming for a living using horses. We
    went to the workshop to learn more about farm work w/ horses. We
    already knew quite a bit about driving as we had trained a horse to
    drive and competed in a couple carriage events. The workshop was great!
    
    We got to do everything: driving wagons, plowing, mowing hay, snaking out 
    timber. The weekend after the workshop was over, Ken and his 16 year
    old son took two of the teams we had worked all week to a pulling contest 
    at the Cummington MA fair and WON! One of the other workshop participants 
    was at the pulling contest too. She came up to us later on and said, 
    "As far as I can see, there are only two horsemen in this pulling contest. 
    And one of them is only 16!"
    
    If you're interested in draft horse publications, two of the best are
    Small Farmer's Journal and Draft Horse Journal. That's assuming they
    have survied the recession. I stopped subscribing to them a while back
    but I might be able to find an address if anyone wants to get more info
    about subscriptions.

    The draft horse journal is still in service. Ihave been recieving it
    for about 8 years now.
    
                                                   Greg

    
    I'd be interested in the address, please.
    
    
    kim
    
    

    I forgot another good New England based draft horse publication that
    used to be around. It was called "The Evener" and carried lots of
    regional news and articles. If it's still around, that would be worth
    looking into as well.

    I had the pleasure of exercising a couple of Fresians (sp?) this
    weekend, under saddle (they're normally driven). Beautiful horses
    to ride once your legs get used to the width, you feel like they
    could carry you all week without stopping... this breed is quite
    rare in the UK, is it known in the US?
    
    JJ.

    Friesians are rather uncommon in the US too. I have SEEN a few but
    never been priveleged enough to ride them.
    
    If I'm not mistaken, Friesians are typically about 15 hands weighing
    1000 pounds. They are used mostly as carriage horses rather than heavy
    draft. The Friesians I have seen were black although I'm told that
    there are occasional chestnut colored horses. Those I've seen also had
    rather hairy fetlocks too.

    Re .79
    
    The chap who owns these Fresians has four of his own, plus two
    recently imported from the Netherlands to school for someone
    else; the tallest is 15h3, the rest 15 to 15h1... they're all
    around the 1000lb weight you mention, and all are jet black
    with long black manes and tails, and feathers (although not
    as hairy as Shires). This four were in the Lord Mayor's parade
    in London last year, and are normally hired out in pairs for
    social events... they're certainly the only Fresians I've ever
    seen, and I must say I think they'd make excellent riding horses,
    as long as you were interested in stamina and calmness rather than
    speed and agility... if you could afford the feed bills, of course ;-)
    
    JJ.

    There is a Fresian breeder someplace in Mass, I forget which town. My
    friend Megan is currently 4th on the waiting list for a male foal, and
    15th or so for a female.....she was told that 4 foals are born each
    year (normally) and that she has about a 50/50 chance of getting a male
    this year, and if not this year is very likely to get one next. I
    believe I've seen this breeder advertise in the Yankee Pedlar and such
    magazines. I don't want to know what she is paying for this foal! :-)
    *I* dont quite know why she even wants one, except perhaps the
    exoticness (is that a word?), she intends to use it as a driving horse
    and train it to ride as well, for trail/distance riding. I certainly
    wouldn't want to foot the feed bills, either! :-) Very pretty animals,
    though, I'm partial to solid blacks, and I was in awe of the one used
    in the movie "Ladyhawk".
    

    
    	Whispering Brook Friesians in West Boylston, MA.  They had a 
    	7 yr old gelding for sale a few months ago for a mere $10K....
    
    
    	Sherry
    

    The feed bill couldn't be any worse than mine! (:
    My horse weighs about 1200 lbs at 16 h....
    
    L-

    Re: .81
    
    The breeder is stringing your friend Megan along.  If she is fourth on
    the list for a colt and there are four foals a year, then the
    probability of her getting a colt this year is the same as the
    probability of all four foals this year being colts.  That probability
    is .5^4 = .0625 or 6.25% chance.
    
    Bob
    :^)
    

    I don't understand the comments about the feed bills for Friesians.
    They are 15H 1000 pound animals with the unusual individual up to 16H.
    Why would their feed bill be anymore than a QH, TB, Morgan or
    Warmblood?
    
    These aren't the Budweiser Clydesdales folks! In fact, I thought
    Friesians had a reputation for being easy keepers.

    RE: The statistics...alright, I'll tell her to call a mathmetician. :-)
    
    RE: Jon, about feed bills...you are not confused, just too literal!
    :-) My comment was not said to be taken seriously, can't speak for
    the other person, though, and perhaps I neglected to put a :-) after
    it. Trust me, I'm bright enough to know the difference between a
    Budweiser Clydesdale and a Freisan. :-)
    

    Actually, it was your comment about a Fiesian not eating more than your
    16H horse that emboldened me to question the comments others had made 
    about not wanting the feed bills for a Freisan. (In other words, I knew 
    you were bright enough to know the difference between a Clydesdale and 
    a Freisan. :-)
    
    I was just wondering:
    
    a) Why Friesians are being discussed under the Gentle Giants topic as they
    aren't draft horses and
    
    b) Whether or not the fact that they are being discussed under the draft
    horse topic was the cause of confusion over how much Friesians actually eat
    
    John

    
    	John, aren't Friesians considered `light drafts'? They are the
    oldest surviving breed that actually carried knights off to the
    crusades, from what I've read...(surviving as in pure line). 
    
    	Sherry
    
    

    Somebody in an earlier note requested the address for the Draft Horse
    Jornal.
    
                               Draft Horse Journal
                                P.O box 670
                                 Waverly,Iowa  50677
    

    Does hitching a Shetland pony or Welsh Cob (Section D) to a carriage
    make them a draft horse? Fiesians are the same size, weight and type of
    horse as Welsh Cob (Section D). The Lippizaner is used mainly as a
    carriage/cart horse does that make them draft horses? Most warmblood
    breeds were originally used as artillery/supply wagon/cavalry horses.
    Are they darft horses? Are Hackneys draft horses?

    The word DRAFT as in draft horse means a pull or the load pulled!
    

    
While the previous definition of "draft" is consistent with the dictionary, 
it leaves a lot to be desired when talking about equines. It categorizes 
    Shetlands, Shires and Standardbreds together because they all wear a 
    harness and pull something. 

The term draft horse is typically reserved for heavy horses where the breed
average is 16H-19H in height and 1600-2200 pounds in weight. These are 
horses like Clydesdales, Shires, Percherons and Belgians. Breeds that were
(and sometimes are still) used for heavy farm work and heavy hauling. Please
notice the title of this topic(i.e. "GENTLE GIANTS").

The term coach or carriage horse is applied to a light horse 900-1300 pounds
which were/are frequently used in harness hitched to a light vehicle but are 
also quite suitable for riding. Of course, ponies are also used to pull 
carriages and they are even smaller still. Examples of carriage horses 
include Cleveland Bays, Friesians, Lippizaners, most warmblood breeds, 
Morgans, Connemaras, Welsh Cobs, most pony breeds, etc. These are breeds are 
in no way similar to those which are generally called draft breeds.

A harness does not a draft horse make!

    Yup that's what "draft" means...and I guess any horse in good health
    could be applied...and most have...But when I think of draft-horses, I
    visualize how they helped as a partner in farm and construct projects
    thru out the land...
    
    I was surprised at the response from my prior note a while back...glad
    the interest is still out there...
    
    On feeding...we have all types...and sometimes the bigger animal is the
    easy-keeper...!
    
    
    Mike...
    
     

    I believe someone in an earlier note asked about the address of the
    Small Farmers Journal it is as follows:
    
    		Small Farmers Journal
    		P.O. Box 2805
    		Eugene, OR  97402
    
    I find that this magazine is geared more to the Small Farmer as the
    name suggests while the Draft Horse Journal is more of a Show Draft
    horse magazine.  It has some very good articles and alot of sales
    results.
    
    The Small Farmers Journal really gets into the how tos of farming. Just
    my opinion but I like the S.F.J. better but I'm more into the farming
    end than the showing and sales end.
    
    The S.F.J. costs $19.00 a year for 4 issues.
    
    Lorna
    

re 199.88-.93
Hi,
I thought I'd jump in on this "draft" horse thing, and state that I believe
that the term "draft" horse is cute but rather imprecise. :-)

I believe the more proper terminology in discussing horses should be based on
their morphology (study of form and structure). This method of classification
leaves much less room for personal interpretation, and allows a uniform
method of classification based on observable characteristics rather than
flamboyant or romantic labels.

Horses are classified as three major morphologies...

DOLICHOMORPHIC - which are breeds that exhibit long limbs and very suited to
running (ie Thoroughbreds, Bulgarian Plevan, French Trotter, Quarterhorse)

MESOMORPHIC - sturdy horses with harmonious lines, capable of powerful and
rapid movements, very suitable for riding. (ie Arabs, Lusitano, Andalusian,
Welsh Cob, Irish Hunter, Frederiksborg, Morgan)

BRACHYMORPHIC - massive, compact, and powerful, predominatly with short
strong lines well suited for heavy work. (ie Shires, Murakoz, Jutland)

Many modern breeds are classified as meso-dolichomorphic (ie Oldenburg,
Trakainer, Hannovarian, San Fratello, Tersky, Orlov, Lipizzaner) as they were
cross bred for many generations in and out of these two morphologies.

There are also meso-brachymorphic horses (ie Irish Draft, Dole Gudbrandsdal,
Lithuanian Heavy Draft, Sokolsky, and Frisian) which are somewhat smaller
and lighter versions of their brachymorphic cousins.

What has this got to do with 199.* (Gentle Giants)? Well Frisians, which was
the topic of controversy (199.88), are meso-brachymorphs which definatly
place then in the subjective "draft horse" category as _all_ "draft" breeds
have some degree of brachyomorphic quality. So discussions of Frisians,
according to its morphology, I believe are appropriate for note 199.*.

Now all you thoroughbred mare owners out there can greet your horse
by saying "Hello Doli" and be complimentary as well as accurate. :-)

Ed P (Equine researcher and student of useless lore)

    Hi Mr.Ed and noter of .93....I respect your opinions and specifics of
    morphology...that's what makes this equine subject so interesting...
    Thanks...
    
    Diversity...of the horse itself and the diversity of a given horse has help
    save the day for many...
    
    Being a generalist in thought...was the intent in my note...Sometimes
    life situations are not precisely to term..but individuals learned to
    teach and train and animal to do multiply functions for them in the era
    of horse...From this contact is probable how certain breeds were
    developed and attend...
    
    Morphology/anatomy does forecast an animal's ability and so, the forecast of
    a given project situation could benefit more from a small draft
    animal...not a 1800-2200lbs horse...Example..halflingers...
    
    To me that's what makes this so interesting...is the adaptability of
    the horse...thru it's history and uses...not to mention his/her company
    under a desert-sky...
    
    Mike....

    Gee, Ed. I'm impressed! I thought I was the only person around who
    retained lots of relatively useless information like who ran second in
    the 1958 US Triple Crown races or the history of the development of the 
    posting trot. We must have misspent our respective youths in similar 
    manners!
    
    I bow to your erudition and accept the argument that, if they are 
    meso-brachymorphic horses, Friesians (aka Frisians) could be loosely 
    lumped with with brachymorphic horses. What puzzles me is why Friesians 
    are classified as meso-brachymorphic horses when horses of similar 
    size and conformation(e.g. Welsh Cobs and Morgans) are classified as
    mesomorphs. Or why Irish Hunters are classified as mesomorphs when I
    have always understood that they are usually a cross between 
    Thoroughbred(dolichomorphic) and Irish Draft(which I assume are 
    meso-brachymorphic since you mentioned them w/ Friesians).
    
    I guess what I'm asking is for MORE useless lore that would define the
    boxes a little better. From the names of the categories, it's obvious
    that limb length has a great deal to do with the classification.
    
    John

re:.98
I will contain my discussion to be within the context of "Gentle Giants"
so as I am presenting Frisians (or the dutch Friesian spelling) may
be recognised as pertinent to this notesstring.

The morphology of Frisians (I like the simpler english spelling) is
charaterized by their short cannons, broad, but not prominent wither,
short neck and broad loins. All of these together charactorize the
breed as having brachymorphic qualities. It's "meso" influence is
primarily its long sloping shoulder, smaller size, and its "trotting"
ability (quite good!) From a genetic view, this is supported by the
breed's development including Friesland stock, Oriental, Trotter,
Oldenburg*, and Andalusian*  (*Oldenburg has strong ties to Cleveland
Bay and Hannoverian, with a touch of Barb for stammina.)
(*Andalusian has Noriker, Barb and Arab blood lines) I wouldn't
be surprised to see Noriker in Frisians bloodlines. Other breeds
influenced by Noriker here are Holstein, Clydesdale and Oldenburg!
But with the ever present arab/barb influence it isn't fair to say
that the Frisian is a straight brachymorph. so meso-brachymorph
is approriate as the conformation suggests more brachymorphic
qualities than mesomorphic.

If you have a copy of the Tyrol (Noriker stud book) I think you'll
find the significant brachymorphic contribution the Noriker plays
in many meso-brachymorphs. By tracing physical characteristics and
overall breed genetics it is to me, beyond a doubt the Frisian
is a meso-brachymorph. Current inbreeding, to refine the breed may
be swinging it to more brachymorphic qualities than before.
(My speculation.) 

The confusion in classifications is in the customary paradigm
of cold-blood / heavy draft classification system. This system
does not account for blood lines or morphology, it classifies
by use. (so by this system my mesomorph equine, which is fully
capable of drafting, (no not with a pen :-) ) could be ridiculously
classed as a draft horse. ha! ha! ha! although I would not fault
that the uneducated eye would and could mistake its Polish breeding, 
for some brachymorphic qualities. Laugh! This is funny stuff.)

In all fairness, I have to state although I admire "Gentle Giants"
I have never had any significant exposure to them. So my
appreciation is only from ringside. My knowledge and understanding
here is very weak, and I do not want to be misconstrued as having
any expertise with the so called "cold blooded" breeds.

Ed P

    
    	Wow, I went on vacation and look what I missed! John, to answer
    	the remark I think you were addressing to me, I didn't mean that
    	just because Friesians were used in a heavy work capacity that
    	they are automatically `drafts'. I have two or three articles I
    	have clipped and saved on the breed, and while one refers to them
    	as [quote] `light drafts', the other calls them a warmblood. I
    	think the third article makes no attempt to categorize.... At any 
    	rate, they are beautiful creatures, I had the pleasure of meeting
    	Erika, trained by Elsie Rodney and shown at last year's UPHA Spring
    	Premiere. Despite my devotion to Tenn Walkers, I know someday I
    	will also own one of these beauties! :)
    
    	Sherry
    

    Hi Sherry,
    
    I know what you mean about Friesians. Despite their morphological
    relationship to draft horses, I am still reluctant to consider them as
    such because they make such great riding horses! In fact, the first
    horse Dr Van Schaik trained to haute ecole was a Friesian! I saw films of
    him doing haute ecole with this horse including some airs above the
    ground(e.g. levade)!
    
    Welcome back. Hope you had a good vacation.
    John

    re -.1
    
    What makes you think draft horses don't make great riding horses? I
    have been personally acquainted with several draft horses that are/were
    excellent riding horses. One, a Clydesdale mare, even won a jumping
    class at a local hunter show, much to the annoyance of the thoroughbred
    owners/riders.

    Good-point...I've read where great prospects in the hunter/jumper
    classes are crossbred with the drafts...high scores...Some drafts are 
    "very heady" animals...
    
    I found the Pedlar Horse Mag...
    
    In reading the magazine...[N.E. base]...drafting and driving has
    increase...they now have a section specificly of the subject and coming
    events...
    
    Do any of you know of such animals...what's their breeding and etc..???
    
                                               
                                                          Mike...
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    How many of you out there handle a "gentle-gaint"...stallions...?...My
    nearly two year old is coming into his own...and like to reintroduct
    him to the herd with the young filly...
    
    Does anyone have any experience or experiences...?...Usual the stallion
    is seperated from the herd...but the temperment of these Suffolk-drafts
    are quite different then riding horses...I know of some of the safety
    risk and etc..
    
    Was thinking of covering her with him first...then reintroduct the
    herd...Some mares know when they are covered and will set the grounds
    rules early...making the situation settle down to general horse play...
    within the herd...
    
    Herd consist of nearly two year old stallion, 4 year-old mare with 1
    month old filly and a 7 year old gelding which is a good
    pasture-buddy...
    
                                                              Mike...

Hi Mike,

I have the sweetest stallion in the world and I wouldn't turn him out with the
mares.  There are just too many opportunities for injury.  Just think how
much damage one of those size double D hoofs could do to your colt! And, even 
though you see him learn the ground rules, you give him a written exam on the 
ground rules and he gets all the questions right, as soon as he sees the girls 
every rule he ever learned goes right out of his head.  Stallions have real good
memories, just real short.  And their philosophy is, I might get my face
slapped 9 times out of 10 but the 10th time will make it worth it!

gwen

    While I might turn out a stallion with a mare band(expect a very high
    conception rate!), I wouldn't turn a stallion out with a gelding under
    any circumstances I can think of.
    
    As a point of trivia, our word stallion derives from an old phrase
    meaning "stalled one"...i.e. a horse that was kept in a stall in man-made 
    social conditions

Actually, I would trust my stallion with a gelding that he knew and liked as
a stable mate...as long as the girls were safely out of the way.  The minute
the girls are even within sight the gelding is the competition.

    Hi Gwen...I agree with your comments thats way I hesitate even to try to
    do it...My stallion hasn't been treated as a stallion until recently...
    do to the circumstances...He was in field with the mare until she
    foaled...and I might add also with the company of a quarter horse
    gelding...[his best friend]...and a QH gray mare...
    
    See I've see stallions being worked in the field with mares and
    geldings and like to learn how tactics these teamters have used to
    accomplish this...given it must depend on the stallion...some are
    workable and some arn't...
    
    Presently the animal are put out to pasture in shifts...morning the
    mare and her filly....them mid-afternoon the stallion and the Arabian
    gelding go out...The gelding is a new comer to the farm...be on site
    for month now...and the stallion and him get along fine...
    
    See there's a lot of trivia out there...but what I was looking for was
    "hand-ons" suggestions from experience doing this...trying to make the
    stallion fit into the working program...granted most of the time it
    can't be accomplished...but the few that are..what did you do..how did
    you made it work...???
    
    I don't understand the comments of to totally alienate the stallion
    from all others...every horse is not alike...!
    
                                                         Mike...
    

    Mike,
    
    I wasn't suggesting that you alienate you stallion, just trying to
    point out that people have had the dilemma of how to handle a stallion
    ever since we domesticated horses. When we domesticated them, we ruined
    their natural social structure which came in two basic flavors: A
    stallion with a band of mares and youngsters(usually colts up to 2
    years and fillies up to 3 years) and male bachelor herds. There was
    also the occassional lone stallion.
    
    If you are interested in working your stallion alongside a mare or
    gelding, it's different than trying to pasture them together.
    Basically, because you're there and in control of the situation. While
    I have worked a stallion in a team with other horses, I have never
    started one to work so I can't offer any advice on how to instroduce
    a stallion into a team.

    
    John...
            Just spent 30 minutes...replin'..and hit "N" at the end...hey..
    57 channels and there nothing on....!...Second-shift becomes brain-
    at 10PM...!
    
    Well I agree...He gets gelded next week...mare will be bred back to
    my stallion's breeder's stock..and training in harness will be more in 
    focused for him this spring...
    
    Given all the variables involved...family safety, fencing and etc...not
    set for a stallion now...guess making the right choice...
    
    Whataya think....                                         Mike...

    My favorite thought on the subject of whether or not to geld was made
    by a racetrack Hall of Fame trainer, Woody Stephens. After he won the
    Belmont Stakes with a gelding, he was asked if he regretted the
    decision to geld the colt since his stud value would have been
    considerable. Mr Stephens replied, "We don't geld enough of 'em. If
    they gelded two-thirds of the colts, they wouldn't be makin' too many
    mistakes."
    
    In other words, I think gelding is the best way to go for most male
    horses. Good stallions make great geldings.

    I agree 100%!  My good stallion has made a GREAT gelding.  

    I guess I had reservations in gelding the stallion because there are
    only a few registered Suffolk-stallions...Maybe one day when time and
    the facilities are right...I might consider breeding them...?
    
    Some others reasons were the blood-lines were too close and this other
    stallion in Vermont will introduce older different lines when breeding
    our mare...hopefully soon...
    
    Also I discussed working a stallion...learned he works his
    stallion...He said with a stallion in harness you have to be a
    different type of teamster...always having it in mind to be
    more alert to the stallion...More discipline and etc...He has a 4-year
    old...But with a gelding...will settle in like a well-worked mare...He
    works his farm with horses only...
    
    Feel the same...he has been a good colt...and will be better as a
    gelding...
    
    Has anyone worked much in single harness...one-horse projects...?
    
                                       
    
                                                        
                                       

    Hi back again...I just got back today from Vermont...our
    mare.."Rosie"...was bred this past week-end...Ben is a dark chestnut
    with flaxen mane and tail...and a little over 16.5 hands...and
    big boned...So we have to wait for the vet check and go from there...?
    
    The foal was quite a chore putting on the trailer to go...but she
    walked right on for the ride back home...wasn't expecting the later
    to go so well...I guess she realized there wasn't any danger after
    the first 2 hour trip...and was safe with mom...?
    
    Chester is still healing, so I'll put them all together in another
    week or two...He was gelded...May 13th....Well we'll see how they
    adjust to each other then...
    
    Man...the black-flies are wicked on the farm this year....!..I guess
    I'll have to get some "Old-Woodman's" fly dope...That'll keep
    everything away...!
    
    Later...........

    Something for everybody in the Oct 30 Chronicle! Also found this!
    
    "GENTLE GIANTS SAVED
    Four unsuspecting draft horses-King, a 5-year-old Belgian and the
    Percherons, Barney,7, Jack,9, and Bill,7-became the focus of national
    attention this past summer in Canada when their owners will was taken
    to court in New Brunswick to prevent their death.
    
    Clive Wishart of Tabusintac,New Brunswick, died over a year ago and
    stipulated in his will that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police should
    destroy his four horses when he died. Wishart disliked horse pulls,
    polpular events at fairs throughout the Maritimes, and had bought the
    horses from someone who used them in hauling matches. It was his wish
    that the horses not be used in these again after he had turned them out
    to pasture on his large farm.
    
    When the RCMP refused to destroy the horses, the matter went to court
    and gained the attention of local residents and the media. Letters
    poured in from as far away as Vancouver, British Columbia, to save the
    horses. A fund was even set up by New Brunswick residents to cover
    legal fees in the action against the will.
    
    On Sept 30, a New Brunswick judge ruled that the horses' death would
    not be in the public's interest and denied Wishart's request in his
    will.
    
    While lawyer's argue over who should have custody of Canada's most
    famous draft horses, King, Barney, Jack and Bill are being cared for by 
    Wishart's neighbor, Lorne Harding.
    
    The horses' plight drew attention to the hauling contests, now banned
    at larger fairs in the Maritimes. In these, horses pull their weight(a
    one ton horse pulls one ton) until they are no longer fit to haul."
    
    I got one question, why didn't the guy say in his will that the
    horses should go to a farmer or darft horse enthusiast who would give
    them a good home rather than that they should be put down?
    
    BTW, I don't think those Hauling contests are like the pulling matches seen
    here in the US. The couple draft horse pulls I've seen here were
    competitions to see which team and teamster could move the most weight.
    They only had to pull it a few feet. From what I could see, it was
    humane and most of the teamsters were good horsemen...although some of
    'em were fairly inexperienced, their consciences seemed to be in the
    right places namely the welfare of their team came first 

        Could any of you folks help me? My barn owner is starting
    to get into drafts,and has just aquired a beautifull Shire mare.
    He would like to get some draft show dates in NH and MA,as well 
    as some info on how they are shown ( stretched, square etc).
    also , are there any Draft Horse associations in the area.(we live 
    in Auburn NH). Any help would be greatly apreciated.
    
                               Thank you   Frank

    
    An ex-DECCIE named Tyke Frost used to help out on the draft horse
    discussions.
    
    I know he lives in N.H., not too far from Manchester, and he and
    his wife have grown their business (including involvement in
    draft horses) since he left.
    
    Does anyone know Tyke's home address/phone?  If not, send me mail
    off line, and I'll put you in touch with a mutual friend who can
    help find him.
    
    Diana
    

    Tyke lives in Deerfield, NH now (Tyke and Sue Frost).  I had the name
    of their farm on the tip of my tongue but I've lost it.  They also do
    romantic evenings (Sue makes a dinner and then you get a carriage ride
    or vice versa) and they do sleigh rides and hay rides.
    
    I'm sure information can give you their number because there can't be
    many people with Tyke's name in Deerfield.  

Sue and Tyke Frost own Point of View Farm -- we thoroughly enjoyed
one of their Romantic Evenings which consisted of an hour long
carriage ride in a white carriage with blue velvet interior and
a superb meal, including corn just picked that day and a rhubarb
pie for two.  We had a tour of the barn afterwords and a lovely
chat with both the owners.  They love their big horses and take
wonderful care of them, and the brass on the harnesses was
polished to perfection!


Point of View Farm
160 South Road
Deerfield, NH 03037

603-463-7974


JanB

re. .56

How is the "new colt doing" We just recently moved here from England where 
we were helping on a farm using two Suffolk's. Since we have moved back we 
just got our own two Fair Winds "Sunny" and Fair Winds "Apple Jack". They 
are both 4 years old. 

We are going to start breaking them to harness as soon as two things 
happen. 1. We get the harness and 2. The snow goes away. 

I have ordered harness from a guy in Penn. It is nearly finished. I never 
knew how much stuff my friend Ian had to work with the horses. It was all 
there. Now that we are trying to do it ourselves it is quite a different 
thing. Still even though it is a challange it is fun. 

Cheers, 
jal

Nothing to do with anything else but John's trivia reminded me of this.

This year at the National Western Stock Show (one of the biggest stock 
events in the western half of the US), the Draft and Mule Show included an 
8 horse draft hitch competition for the first time.  

Up until this year, the draft competitions (both driving and pulling) were 
held in a fairly small area and an 8 horse draft hitch just wouldn't have 
worked.  I understand they tried an 8 horse demonstration a few years ago 
and it was a disaster.  This year, a brand new area (seating for 5000) was 
completed and the 8 horse was held for the first time.

Truely impressive to see 8 teams of 8 horse drafts (64+ tons) lined up in
the middle of the area at once.  Percherons, Belgians, and Clydes pretty
evenly distributed (and places like Iowa and Florida represented :) 

They worked in 2 groups of 4 but came in for a final lineup together.

My pick is usually the Clydes team from Florida, traditional bay color with
white accents (socks, blaze), brass trim on the harnesses, white trim
wagon... sigh :) 

    You should see the 6 and 8 horse hitch competition at the Big-E
    (Eastern States Fair, Springfield MA) each year.  It's not a humongous
    arena and the thundering and shaking that goes on as they bring those
    hitches in at a pretty quick trot is really exciting.  Good
    representation of Clydes, Belgians, Shires - not too many percherons
    unfortunately.  
    
    In my neck of the woods Belgians, and haflingers are popular - too bad
    to just see beige, if you know what I mean.  I'm partial to percherons
    myself.
    
    Dana

    Fella down the road from us used to have 10 - 12 drafts - about 
    half percherons and half belgiums.  He only has 2 left now, both
    belgiums.  He used to go around to all the local fairs and do the
    pulling contests with them - it was kinda fun to see him around 
    the woods training with them.  FWIW - he told me once that lb for
    lb, Clydesdales don't have the strength/pulling power that most
    other draft breeds have, being breed more for 'pretty' and show.
    His favorite was belgiums.  Let me ride one once - I felt like
    I was riding a tractor trailer; big, slow-moving, and a bit
    akward.  Or maybe the one he put me up one was just an
    old 'plug' at heart. Personally, I'll stick to the littler, 
    more agile kind. :-)
    

�              <<< Note 109.122 by MTCLAY::COBURN "Plan B Farm" >>>

�    the woods training with them.  FWIW - he told me once that lb for
�    lb, Clydesdales don't have the strength/pulling power that most
�    other draft breeds have, being breed more for 'pretty' and show.
�    His favorite was belgiums.  Let me ride one once - I felt like

The heavy draft pulling contests are pretty impressive as well.  The teams 
that we see here I understand are usually not pure-bred but appear to have 
Belgian as a large component.

These guys are impressive.  2-horse teams weighing in at about 4000 lbs 
pulling over 15,000 lbs 20' (3 tries).  And these guys sure look like they 
like pulling... they're pulling at the harness before the hookers can get 
them hooked to the sled.

Their shoes are pretty interesting too - big cleats on toe and heel of all 
4 feet...

    
    it's nice to see some activity in the draft note,  i myself have a
    strong intrest in the draft breed and wanted to let you know of a draft
    horse auction held spring and fall in denver, co.  the auction this spring
    is april 7, and 8th.  they auction, carts, harness, collars, and of
    course horses.  the auction is held by harly troyer at the adams fair
    grounds just north of denver.  the quality of horses is very
    impressive, i have purchases 2 full breed belgiums.  if you want more
    info on this let me know,   the flyer is at home.
    
    gail

Re: <<< Note 109.124 by CSC32::G_TOBIN >>>
    
>>                                                       the auction this spring
>>    is april 7, and 8th.

Before anyone makes any wrong assumptions (like my wife and I did awhile ago),
this is a Friday and Saturday, not a weekend.

                             Roak

This is a short string of 3 entries from the Internet Mailing list
antique-tractor.  I found the horse to tractor comparisons amusing.
Bill

Archive-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 1995 19:30:12 EST
Sender: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 16:30:43 -0800
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (Chuck Bealke)
Reply-To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Most hated implement + moldboard plowing
To: [email protected]

Regarding Tom Wagner's problem with the horse drawn plow behind his 
Farmall A, Bob Seith's suggestion that it's best a two man ('scuze me 
ladies - a two person) job is right on.  And it prompts me to make a 
suggestion to all fellow fans of moldboard plowing - if you ever get a 
chance to plow with a horse for a little while to get the feel of it,
pounce on it.  

I had such a chance at age 15, after probably 500 to 1,000 hours of 
plowing with several types of tractor/plow combinations and a firm 
(teenage-invincible) belief that I knew a thing or three about plows.
Friends, when you hold a plow by its handles behind an independent, oat 
powered engine and attempt to guide it in a fairly constant manner and 
depth for a while, you get a college education in plow physics.  With 
that comes a new appreciation for tractor plowing and not being born 
into farming before the Waterloo Boy.  But there is also a romance about 
it - a  close-to-the-earth feeling that you don't quite get from a 
tractor seat.  I highly recommend it - at least for a lesson.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|      .    ___/___/
  ----- Chuck Bealke -----       |     .        \    
Writer, antique tractor          |    .              
(esp. 2-cyl JD) buff, pilot,     |   _|___\ __       
welder, farmer, photographer,    |   |_____/  \      
and of late, WWW surfer.         |   ()    \__/      
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 1995 21:41:01 EST
Sender: [email protected]
From: Charles Irwin <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Most hated implement + moldboard plowing
To: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 20:41:56 -0600 (CST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



> tractor seat.  I highly recommend it - at least for a lesson.

**** Aye! Indeed it twas a lesson...I still remember helping my dad
     plowing our garden with ol' Ted.  When it came time to cultivate
     the corn after it had reached about 3'. My responsibility was to lead
     the horse thru the rows holding his head just in case temptation
     should prove to be too much.  Even at that the ol' boy still managed
     snitch a few stalks along the way.  When he got too old to work my
     dad retired him and we ended up getting a used AC-B.  I thought I had
     died and gone to heaven.

     CW
   

> 
> -- 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|      .    ___/___/
>   ----- Chuck Bealke -----       |     .        \    
> Writer, antique tractor          |    .              
> (esp. 2-cyl JD) buff, pilot,     |   _|___\ __       
> welder, farmer, photographer,    |   |_____/  \      
> and of late, WWW surfer.         |   ()    \__/      
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 1995 01:05:29 EST
Sender: [email protected]
Message-ID: <9503060608.AA17539@blazer>
Subject: Horse, Truck & Tractor
To: [email protected] (Antique Tractor)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 22:08:13 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected] (George Best)
Reply-To: [email protected]
Content-Type: text

Anytime I'm in a used book store I always look for old books on tractors,
engines, or related topics.

A couple weeks ago I bought a book, "Horse, Truck and Tractor" which was
published in 1913.  The main reason I bought the book was because of the
numerous pictures in it of Rumely Oilpull tractors.  It also contains some
interesting bits of information.

In 1912 there were 25 million horses and mules in the country.  They consumed
food to the value of $2,000,000,000.  (in 1913 dollars!)

"Merely the horse shoes that were hammered on by last year's blacksmiths
contained enough iron to make 40,000 tractors."

"All told, our horses and mules consume in a year 73,000,000 tons of hay -
an immense bulk which has to be produced and handled.  If all the horse-food
were grown in one vast farm, that farm would be as large as Iowa, Indiana,
Illinois, and Ohio combined."

"During 1912, in Kansas, more than 20,000 horses died of a new mysterious
disease, which was commonly called the "horse-plague."  How can these horses
be replaced by others?  There is no surplus of horses in any State; and four
years must elapse before 20,000 new horses can be developed."

"In Western Canada we find this shortage of horses most conspicuous.  To plow
the 200,000,000 new acres of Western Canada requires the power of 4,000,000
horses - twice as many horses as there are in the whole Dominion of Canada.
There is absolutely no way, therefore, for this new vast region to develop
itself, except by the use of tractors."

The books lists the advantages of tractors and trucks over horses in
numerous ways and trys to convince the reader that they really need a
tractor to be a successful farmer.  In a chapter on raising wheat there
is a list of the number of days spent during the year.

"If we assume that we are working with 1,200 acres of old ground then the
tractor would be in use for the various operations the following number of
days:

   Plowing and discing....... 40
   Discing and drilling...... 14
   Harvesting................ 12
   Threshing................. 12
   Hauling................... 24
        Total................ 102 "

In their example they were using a 30-60 Rumely Oilpull pulling an 8 bottom
plow.  I have a hard time imaging what it must have been like to spend
40 to 50 days just plowing!  The book gives 50 days as the amount of time
needed to plow the land the first time.

Anyway, its an interesting book and I am sure if you check your used book
stores you too can find some interesting reading.
  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
George Best           24696 SW Daniel Rd, Aloha, OR 97007 (503) 649-3576
[email protected]  Editor for Br. 15 Early Day Gas Engine & Tractor Assoc.

    > [snip]  if you ever get a
    > chance to plow with a horse for a little while to get the feel of it,
    > pounce on it.
    
    We did! When we were married a mere 2 years, Jan & I went to draft
    horse school! It included everything from harnessing to drawing logs
    out of the wood to pulling wagons to haying and plowing...It was really
    fun, especially the plowing. 
    
    The funniest thing was watching 2 women harness a 17-18 hand draft
    horse. Jan stands about 5'7" but her work partner was only about 5'1".
    Neither of them had the strength to lift the harness high enough to put
    it on the horse's back. They could get it up part way but the harness
    would slide right back off before they coudl do anything with it.
    
    There weren't any stools or step ladders handy so they had to workout
    something. Apparently, women are used to being resourceful to
    compensate for the usual differences in strength between men and women.
    
    They came up with a scheme were 1 of them would take a running start
    and jump as high as they could and fling the harness up on the horse's
    back. The other would stand on the other side of the horse and grab the
    harness to keep it from falling off. It worked. They buckled the
    harness and got their work done. They paired up every day after that.
    But, us guys were rolling on the barn floor the first time we saw it!
    
    Anyway, we both got to plow and it was fun. 

Re: <<< Note 109.127 by DECWET::JDADDAMIO "Seattle:Life in the espressolane" >>>

>>    We did! When we were married a mere 2 years, Jan & I went to draft
>>    horse school! It included everything from harnessing to drawing logs
>>    out of the wood to pulling wagons to haying and plowing...It was really
>>    fun, especially the plowing.

Do you have any more details?  Contacts?  Phone numbers?  Location?  I've seen a
few advertised in the Draft Horse Journal, but I'd like a place to start
researching...

Thanks.

                                Roak

    >Do you have any more details?  Contacts?  Phone numbers?  Location? 
    
    I neglected to mention that this course was about 20 years ago...literally
    It was 1976 so the info would be out of date but...
    
    I read about it in the Draft Horse Journal in 1975. When I saw the
    announcement for the 1976 class, we signed up. It was put on by
    North Adams State College in North Adams MA. It was taught by a local
    dairy farmer named Ken DeMers who lived a few miles away on the MA/VT 
    border. Ken wasn't a young man at the time so he's at least in his 70's
    if he's still with us. I know his wife and one of their sons have
    passed on but I don't know about Ken.
    
    If he's alive and still teaching, he's a damn good man with a horse so
    I would highly recommend him. I don't give out praise lightly.

Even though not a draft breed (nevertheless, they're big!), this is one of the
few places the Fresian is mentioned, so I thought I'd point out that the January
1996 "Horse Illustrated" has a Fresian on the cover as well as an article and a
centerfold on them.

I still think they're the prettiest horse breed, the problem being so do the
people who sell them! :-)

                             Roak

    
    	Thanks Roak! Friesians are my favorite breed. I looked at a
    	colt a couple of months ago in the central MA area. He was
    	gorgeous. The woman had 2 stallions, 3 yrs old, whom she had
    	in a pasture together. We walked right in with them and they
    	were angels! She also has 2 mares and a gelding. All from
    	England. Very impressive and beautiful, all of them.
    
    	The colt was $7K. I'm still playing the lottery. :)
    
    	Sherry

    
    I to love the Friesians!  They are lovely!
    

    Sherry, 
    
    From England?  Most importeds are from Holland, where the breed
    originates and is very popular.  My friend Megan has a 3 yr old
    stallion, who was just recently broke to saddle and is destined for
    low-level dressage.  He has a very nice temperment, and is quite
    level-headed.  With the exception of not being in the least bit
    interested in trailering (he rears up over the chest bar), she hasnt
    had any trouble with him at all.  He's on the larger side, being 16.3
    and approx 1300 lbs - being a cold blood, he's a pretty easy keeper,
    eating only 4 lbs of complete feed a day, but I say 'easy keeper' with
    tongue-in-cheek - he also eats his way through bale and a half of grass
    hay daily.  Admittedly, she could cut him down, he's borderline obese!
    
    Just this past weekend, I went out on a short trail ride with her on
    him (I rode her older gelding along side), and he did excellent! The
    older, far more experienced gelding was more intimidated by the gusty
    winds that day and the stop sign he's seen 8 million times than the
    colt was.  
    
    Unfortuneatly, he has been diagnosed as having OCD in both hocks (not
    an uncommon problem in the massive breeds), discovered at his 3 yr old 
    Kuuring.  Tufts declared him only 'servicably sound' and dont' believe 
    he will hold up to any degree of hard work - his owner is planning to 
    seek a second opinion in spring.  I'm hoping things will work out for
    the best for my friend, he's such a sweet-natured horse!
    
      

    
    	Yes, she was from England herself and had bought the horses
    	there, moving here a year or two ago. Shipped them all over
    	by plane [one look at her place and you know she's not hurting
    	too badly for money!].
    
    	Her broodmare is related to the horse Goliath, of Ladyhawke
    	fame. 
    
    	Her retired gelding was about 17hh, but all of her others 
    	were no more than 16hh. Very hefty but not fat, and when they
    	came running across the field boy did you hear them! :) 
    
    	Sherry 

    FYI, we got a "junk mail" flyer from EQUIVID the other day that said
    they had a new video about Friesians. They claim it's worth the price
    even though it's in German. YMMV

A reminder, the National Western Stock Show "Draft Weekend" is this weekend,
January 19th-21st.  They'll have everything from halter class up to and
including the eight horse hitches.  If memory serves the eight horse hitches are
on Saturday and the six horse ones are Sunday.

As I posted in another reply, the Bud Clyde team is currently at NWSS, and is
performing at the Rodeo, but their stable is poorly marked so it's very hard to
find if you don't know where to look.

To find the stables go to Portal 11 (entrance to the Arena) in the Coliseum and
face outward. About in front of you you will see the woman's rest room.  Walk
toward the rest room and to the right of it and you'll end up in a corner with a
staircase leading downstairs.  The Clydes are down those stairs.

If anyone wants further details (how to get to NWSS, schedule, etc.) send me
mail (John Lyons is doing a demo on Thursday during the day sometime).

                               Roak

    i was lucky enough to attend the nwss on sunday the 21st..
    
    just imagine 16  6 horse hitches in the same arena... 96 draft horses
    in one ring.  it was great!.
    
    i also enjoyed the draft pull, they sure are a powerful breed.
    
    
    and a gentle breed..  i have not been able to work my 2yr old very much
    this past year, but with-in a half hour i had a saddle on his back and 
    was sitting on him for the first time..  try that on a none draft
    breed!  

Colorado State Fair Draft Schedule

Saturday, August 24th:

8:00am West Arena
	Halter Classes
	Log Skid -- Single
	Log Skid -- Team
	Farm Team Obstacle
	Cart Obstacle

Noon Grandstand
	Team Pulling -- 1st Go Round

Noon East Arena
	Ladies Cart
	Farm Team
	Show Team
	Unicorn Hitch

6:00pm West Arena
	Mare Cart
	Tandem Hitch
	Junior Team
	Four Horse Hitch

Sunday, August 25th:

9:00am East Arena
	Junior Cart
	Amateur Team Driving
	Ride A Draft

Noon Grandstand
	Team Pulling -- 2nd Go Round

1:00pm East Arena
	Mens Cart
	Ladies Team
	Six Horse Hitch
	Feed Team Race