Conference noted::bicycle

    Which bags did you have that sagged?
    
    I have used Cannondale's biggest bags and some "aerodynamic"
    bags by Tailwinds that hols their shape nicely.  The latter have
    a lousy connection system.
    
    ed
    
    (btw, "3200 cu in" not "oz" :-)  )

Maybe just me, but I always recommend getting the smallest panniers you can 
find, keeps you from being tempted to take too much junk along. If you have
huge panniers, the temptation is to fill 'em. Mine run about 1600-1800 cubes,
but have no sleeping bag / tent compartment. With an sb/t compartment, 2400
cubes sounds just about dandy. Makes packing more agonizing, and the trip less
so - you'll be waitin' at the top of Logan Pass sippin' tall cool ones and
watching mountain goats while your buddies with the big panniers are still
popping rivets in their knees :-).......
                                         ken

    re .1
    I meant that my baggage was "sagged" from camp site to camp site via
    truck.  I ride cross state rides mostly where you pack a big duffle bag
    and put all your camping gear in it and then you throw it on a truck
    each morning.

    Oh.  :-)

    Here are some things to look for from a person who has worn out several
    sets of panniers (commuting, not touring).
    
    First thing to go seems to be the seams, usually around the bottom of
    the bags.  Try to compare panniers based on stitching - double
    stitchibng, heavy thread, stuff like that.
    
    Also, examine the stiffener that is meant to keep the side of the bag
    next to the bike from bending.  If it's made of cardboard-like
    material, like in some older panniers, it will turn soft when wet, and
    the rear end of the pannier will tend to flop into the spokes, unless
    you have an unusual rack, one that has several stays which will keep
    the pannier out of the spokes.
    
    And the suspension system in any panniers always seems to give out. 
    First, the elastic bands that fasten somewhere around the dropouts will
    lose their stretch.  This causes the panniers to part company with the
    bike whenever you hit a big bump - disconcerting at best, dangerous if
    they fall into the spokes.  The clamps, or whatever holds the panniers
    onto the top of the rack must be very strong.  Not only do they hold
    the weight of the pannier contents but also the tension in the elastic
    band.  Lightweight plastic clamps tend to break and lightweight metal
    ones can die of metal fatigue.  Look for something really solid. 
    
    Don't worry overly about the strength of the fabric (dernier count or
    whatever).  I've never yet managed to rip the fabric, although my
    panniers have subcumbed to the ailments mentioned above.
    
    Don't be afraid to use large panniers and pack lots of stuff - IF
    you're cycling on reasonably level ground.  But that weight can be a
    real pig on the hills!
    
    Rick
    

    Thanks for the input.  I am going to give the REI Explorer panniers a
    try.  The stiffiner looks like nylon.  The tensioners are extension
    springs and the attachment is metal (do not remember which type but it
    looks like steel not alum)riveted to the stiffener.  I will check the
    seams.
    
    Mike

    
    I've been shopping for panniers to do some credit card touring.  I 
    purchased Nashbar's front/rear panniers and was disappointed with the
    quality.  They had single stiching, lightweight fabric, and a cheesy
    support structure.  I guess I was expecting too much for $55. I'm 
    returning them.
    
    I instead bought some Jandd panniers from a local shop.  They are
    superior to the Nashbar panniers in every way and cost only a few
    dollars more at $85.  I've owned a Jandd pack that fits on top of 
    the rack for several years and I've been very pleased with it.

    I recently bought the Cannondale panniers, front and rear, for my
    ST1000 Touring bike; they're expensive (about $200 for all four bags),
    but I can't fault them on their quality. The fronts are C-Dale Model
    #B119 and the rears are #B120.
    
    You get what you pay for.
    
    	/Harry

    
    In a month's time, I'm going to start commuting to work by bike now
    that I'm coming off of 12 hour rotating shifts and onto 8 hour
    dayshifts. 25+ miles to work is going to give me lots of lovely miles
    to consider giving the Alps a bash next year...
    
    In the meantime, I've still only one bike, my Gazelle which is as race
    spec as they come, and it's going to have to stay that way until my
    neighbours finish building my garden wall so that I can get a shed in.
    At the moment, I don't have room in the house for two bikes. When I buy
    that second bike, I'll probably making a fairly decent spec for a
    commuting bike so that I can turn it into a winter hack/touring bike.
    That's going to leave a lot of miles on the bike, and to go too low
    down spec levels means that I'm going to be constantly changing worn
    out parts.
    
    Now to the point of this note. When I get this second bike, it'll have
    rear panniers, but there's no way that they're going on the Gazelle.
    So, in the meantime, I need a bag that will go on the bike (I won't
    consider putting anything on my body... Well, maybe clothes...). The
    obvious choice is a barbag, but I'm not a great fan of these. Instead,
    I would like a bag that I seen some time ago. It fits inside the
    triangle of the frame, leaving weight distribution normal and it'll be
    nice and easy to put on the bike. But, can anyone tell me where to get
    these? I've never seen any in local shops. Also, how much room do they
    have. I will need room for at least a change of clothes and preferably
    my lunch too, so that I don't have to subject myself to the horrors of
    the SQF canteen...
    
    Graham.

    Graham,
    There's a *huge* string on this in Euro_Randonneur when we were all
    deciding what to take for the raid.  My recommendation is that you
    either buy a codgers CTC special-carradice (but you need a Brooks with
    eyelets !) or a monster sub-saddle wedge.  Alan's got a nice one, but
    I'm not sure how much capacity there is - come out for a spin with us
    one weekend and have a look...
    
    What Alan and I tend to do is just leave a change of clothes at work
    and drive in at least once a week (and I'd be astonished if you cycle
    in 5 times a week) with a change.
    
    Finally you might be suprised about getting racing bike to carry
    panniers - you can get all sorts of stuff (at Fusbertis apparantly) to
    add eyelets and so forth, but why ruin the good looks of a bike with a
    carrier.....
    /rod

    
    
    re: last.... where is Euro_Randonneur?
    
    doug
    

    	MOVIES::EURO_RANDONNEUR

    OK I'll stick it into EASYNOTES `soon'.
    
    sorrry

>> and I'd be astonished if you cycle in 5 times a week
    
    I'm going to try. I've got zero will power and as soon as I say "I
    won't bother taking the bike in today", the second time will be too
    easy, and the third, and the fourth....
    
    It's for this same reason that I'm reversing all that I have preached
    in the past about wind and training. I'm heading out with the tail wind
    so that when I turn into a 20km headwind, I've got no choice but to go
    for it, instead of heading out into the headwind and deciding after
    10km that I've had enough....
    
    Graham.