Conference noted::bicycle

    GET BOTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:-)
    
    Nashbar has the OLD style LOOK COMP. pedals for $68.00 was $124.00.
    The only draw back I see is that the pedals are Black(I like this)
    and they are not as lite as the new ones.  
    
    As for rims go MA40 I love mine (I am 210lbs) with no problems yet!
    
    Smile be happy, its only money.
    
    
    John_who_did_23_miles_on_his_MTB_on_the_pavement_:-(_sunday!

    Ok, you could probably not go wrong getting both.  I agree.
    
    As Matt Johnson says, the single biggest performance upgrade
    you can make is the wheels (specifically the rims, I'd imagine).
    As per .-1, the MA40's are good rims.  I'd choose those over the
    Campy's.  (The Campy hubs are fine, of course.)
    
    Once you get used to the added speed, however, and the ensuing
    spate of traffic tickets from zooming on your new rims, you'll notice
    a real *comfort* difference with clipless pedals.
    
    So if you have to make a choice, your making it between higher
    performance and more comfort (with slightly more performance).
    
    -john

    PS: Largely off-the-point anecdote about wheels:
    
    During the BANC 400km qualifier two days ago, one of the contenders
    pulled into the 160km checkpoint (the NC Zoo), sporting a radial built
    front wheel, bladed spokes (24 or 28, I think), and radial/2-cross 
    bladed-spoke pattern on the rear wheel.  He said, yes they were fine, 
    and "very responsive."
    
    On down the road, this evoked mild mirth among those just who left
    him at the checkpoint, everyone agreeing they wouldn't trust wheels 
    like that 50 feet from a time trial course, certainly not in a 
    road race (or brevet, such as this)... and if they were all that
    responsive, wouldn't he be up with the front runners?
    
    I know this notes conference has gone over radial, bladed, etc.,
    before ... but would you all consider such a wheel for any sort of
    road riding?  (Honest inquiry.)  I presume Nancy is looking for
    some sort of compromise between performance and reliability.
    
    -john

    The woman who won the RAAM Open East last year had 18 spokes front
    and rear.  18 front radial.  18 back: 6 on the left radial, 12 on the
    right 2 cross.  She weighed perhaps 110-120 lbs.  Did the 540 mile
    course in, I think, under 40 hours.  Yes, it is technically a time
    trial but the course was really "road."
    
    Now, would I trust such wheels on a brevet?  No, finishing is more
    important.  This reminds me of the fellow who showed up for a club
    TT with a delta bike and a disk wheel, lycra body suit, aero helmet
    and 60 lbs of extra adipose tissue.  We all waited a while for him to
    finish, and he didn't start last either.
    
    Ultimately it's more than equipment.  Though it's a lot of fun to have
    the latest dweebery.
    
    ed

  >>  My original intention
  >>  was to get Campy Record hubs - I haven't quite decided on rims yet,
  >>  but again I was thinking Campy.
    
	I went with Dura-Ace cassette hubs. I love the cassette freewheel.
	It is so easy to change freewheel cogs, not whole freewheels. Cheaper
	also. So if you plan on doing a TT you can make a few cog changes and
	make a 13-19. Then on training rides change it to a 13-24, for the
	price of two cogs. Also Dura-Ace allows you to go click-click.
	
  >>  So, what do you guys think - should I upgrade the wheels?  Or, seeing
  >>  that I have yet to have a wheel problem, should I leave well enough
  >>  alone and buy myself some clipless pedals instead?
	
	It's good to have two sets of wheels, but I got them after I got LOOK 	
	peddles. If I had to give up my good wheels or my LOOK's. I'd give up
	the wheels.

    	Tom_who_has_a_SHIMANO/CAMPY_bike_and_loves_the_mix
    	   

>	I went with Dura-Ace cassette hubs. I love the cassette freewheel.
>	It is so easy to change freewheel cogs, not whole freewheels.

    What good is that.  Now you have to toss the whole
    hub when the freewheel dies.  (It happened to me.)

    -Jeff Bell

    On the new bike I specified this year, I went for wheel durability at
    the expense of performance.  I'd characterize these as training
    wheels.  I also went for clipless pedals, and like them more and
    more each time I'm on the bike.  It would be difficult to choose
    between the two.  I also went for a mix and match on components
    and have been happy with the interoperability (Shimano, Mavic,
    Stronglight and Campy [seat post bolt only- had to have something
    Campy]).  The wheels are:
    
    Mavic RD556 hubset (32 front, 36 rear)
    Mavic MA40 rims
    15ga DT spokes front, 14ga rear; 3X pattern
    
    The hubs use sealed cartridge bearings.  I've been told they only
    need replacement every 10-15K miles.  I was considering the Campy
    clincher rim until someone told me that it was designed with a
    particular spoke pattern in mind.  The standard 3X pattern would
    result in crossed spokes over the valve hole.  The other factor
    was that many people universally spoke highly of the MA40 while
    few have had experience with Campy rims.
    
    Whatever you decide, I'm sure you'll enjoy either one or both of
    these birthday gifts.
                                                    

>    need replacement every 10-15K miles.  I was considering the Campy
>    clincher rim until someone told me that it was designed with a
>    particular spoke pattern in mind.  The standard 3X pattern would
>    result in crossed spokes over the valve hole.  The other factor

Uh, this sounds like some'un was pulling your leg just a weeeee bit....

                                                    ken

    re: -.1
    
    I checked with the place which built my wheels, and I was indeed
    inaccurate.  The Campy rims are unique in that the spoke holes are offset
    both in direction and angle.  Their design works *only* with 3X
    pattern.  In theory, the Campy design should put less stress on
    the nipple end of the spoke.  What you give up is flexibility if
    latter decide to radially spoke or do some asymmetric pattern. 
    All in all, its not a very big issue.
    
    Sorry for the mistake.

    	My philosophy: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.   The only reason
    for an early upgrade of rims is to change from steel (a real safety
    problem in wet weather) to aluminum.  The Look-type pedals are so
    much better an investment that it's no contest.  If you want to
    play wheel games, spend $30 and get a cover for your rear wheel.
    That will make a larger performance difference.  - Chris

    Hi,
    
    How about no answer at all :-)
    
    Light wheels and corresponding high-pressure tires will make a large 
    difference but they will tend to be more fragile.  However, it appears
    that you keep a close eye on your wheels.  Campy hubs in my experience
    are smooth and tough, that is they can live without being re-greased
    a lot.
    
    Clipless Pedals, I have had LOOKS on various bikes for a couple
    of years now.  I found them to do all that was advertised but I
    don't reccomend that people go straight from no-cleats to looks
    the reason is you folks should suffer like us :-).  No, really if
    you are used to being able to remove your foot it is easier IMO
    to get used to the idea of having to yank harder than it is to twist
    rotate, lean etc.  
    
    Joe

> As Matt Johnson says, the single biggest performance upgrade
> you can make is the wheels (specifically the rims, I'd imagine).

    Yeah, but that guy Matt is always mouthing off.  What does he know?

    Well, I spent my weekend at Gamache's as well as pouring over the
    Nashbar and Performance catalogues.  And I'm even more confused than
    ever now!
    
    A couple questions first:
    
    Re .5  Is there a discussion somewhere in here about the cassette
    freehubs?  All I seem to remember about them is that during the
    MS150 2 years ago I was riding in the repair van and it took us
    about an hour with 2 pairs of vice grips to get some guys freewheel
    off so that we could change a broken spoke.
    
    Re .9  Am I correct in assuming that if I went with Campy rims that
    I would be unable to have a radial front wheel?
    
    
    All in all, I think I'm leaning towards the clipless pedals, but
    I'm going to have to read up a little more on them first.  
    
    Reasons for going towards the pedals:  
    
    	My current pedal is always working loose making crunchy noises
    
    	I have no problems with my current wheels, and I'm a bit hesitant
    	to change a good thing
    
    	I have an extra set of wheels on my old bike, if for some reason
    	I ruined my current set
    
    	Price - New wheels will cost me in the $300 range, plus an
    	estimated 7 hours to build.   Clipless pedals will cost me in
    	the $200 range, plus 30 minutes to install.
    
    	I need new cycling shoes anyway.
    

    Decisions, decisions, decisions.
    
    	-Nancy

< Note 1194.13 by WITNES::HANNULA "Well, you see, I have this cat......." >

>                  -< I think I'm becoming an equipment dweeb >-

Join the club!

>    Re .5  Is there a discussion somewhere in here about the cassette
>    freehubs?  All I seem to remember about them is that during the
 
Don't know, but I want to convert all my wheels to Ultegra freehubs, because 
of the ease and low cost of changing gears.  I like the idea of the stonger 
axle due to bearing placement, but at <140 lbs I've never had axle problems 
and doubt that I will.  The one disadvantage that I've heard is that if the 
freewheel mechanism does break, you probably have to throw out the hub and 
re-lace the wheel, a rather expensive, time-consuming fix.  But in 20,000m+ of 
riding in the last few years, I've never had a FREEWHEEL die on me.  Are the 
freehubs as reliable?  I don't know...

BTW, the newer freewheels with the splined removal tool should never get 
stuck or stripped.  The old style with the pronged remover does have the 
tendency to allow you to screw them up.

>    	Price - New wheels will cost me in the $300 range, plus an
>    	estimated 7 hours to build.   Clipless pedals will cost me in
>    	the $200 range, plus 30 minutes to install.

Why so much for both?  For about $160 you can get any clincher rim you want 
with Ultegra freehubs w/ cassettes from Colorado Cyclist.  If you go for LOOK 
pedals, any number of mail order places have been advertising the old 
competition pedal for about $80.  They're fine (I use them).  The new LOOK 
sport pedal should cost about the same.  $80 max for new shoes, and you've 
spend $160.
    
Kevin

Regarding Shimano cassette hubs:

    The idea of the cassette hub is to make a stronger hub by better
    positioning the bearings.  On a normal rear hub the bearings on the
    right side must be moved to the left of the freewheel putting move
    leverage on the axle.  This extra leverage can cause bent and broken
    axles.  Is this a problem?  If you are on the heavy side and/or ride
    over rough roads then it sure can be.

    An extra advantage is that changing cogs becomes easy.  It also weighs
    slightly less (although not enough to make any difference).  Contrary
    to a previous note which called them "throw aways" they are as
    serviceable as any other hub/freewheel combination.

>    Contrary
>    to a previous note which called them "throw aways" they are as
>    serviceable as any other hub/freewheel combination.

    Perhaps yours is servicable (at least for the next year or two
    before Shimano changes it's design again); mine is not.

    At Bike Exchange they said that the freewheel was swaged onto
    the hub, and I would have to replace the whole hub.

    At International Bicycles, they said the same thing, and gave me
    an old hub so that I could try to just rebuild the freewheel part.

    Maybe not all cassette hubs are equal.
    Mine was Shimano 600 EX circa 1982.

    -Jeff Bell

    Nancy,
    
    You seem happy with your wheels.  Go with the pedals!  (And here
    I'm supposed to be the big wheel advocate.... Oh well.)  As long
    as your current wheels are 1" or 1 1/8", and have a hook-bead rim,
    you can take advantage of the recent improvements in clinchers.

    One thing about the freehub discussion -- what's this about cogs
    being easier to change?  I can't think of how they could be easier
    than they already are on my Shimano freewheels.  Just take two 
    freewheel tools, wrap the little length of chain around on of the
    middle cogs and the smallest one, and twist.  Swap out cogs as you
    like, tighten the smallest one, and go.  Am I missing something?
    
    MATT

I have never found anyone who could tell me why the term "cassette" is used with
this type of hub.  Can anyone here do this?

I am used to the typical Suntour screw-on type that uses the tool with two pegs
that drop into recesses on the freewheel for removal.  After you remove the 
freewheel, I think you can disassemble the individual rings to replace them or 
change the gearing.  Is this the "non-cassette" type?

It occurs to me that the left side bearing is mounted quite inboard of the axle
end, which could cause axle bending or bearing stress problems.  I assume that 
the "cassette" type has the bearing closer to the axle end.  This must be one 
advantage of the cassette type.  Is it the only advantage?

Can someone do a two column comparison of cassette / non-cassette?  I'd be
very grateful, but I couldn't send any money!

i.e.

           Cassette                       Non-Cassette


Thanks,


Steve

I have raced on Dura-Ace cassette hubs for 9 yrs and have had no problems
with them. I weigh between 165-170 lbs and mash these wheels when I race.
Rather than spend a lot of money for freewheels. I chose cassette hubs which
allow me the ability to make gear changes with complete freedom. After each
race I would make a note in my training log about what cluster set-up I used
so that next year I could use the same set-up or make any modifications based
on last years notes. I have every gear between 11 and 26 which gives me
complete flexibility. If I'm racing a new course I'll drive the course and
determine what I want for gearing. If its a hill climb I can set up my cluster
with 23,22,21,20,19,18. Seldom will you be able to buy a freewheel in this
configuration. I would go with cassette hubs.


/Charlie

Re .14
    
<>    	Price - New wheels will cost me in the $300 range, plus an
<>    	estimated 7 hours to build.   Clipless pedals will cost me in
<>    	the $200 range, plus 30 minutes to install.

<Why so much for both?  For about $160 you can get any clincher rim you want 
<with Ultegra freehubs w/ cassettes from Colorado Cyclist.  If you go for LOOK 
<pedals, any number of mail order places have been advertising the old 
<competition pedal for about $80.  They're fine (I use them).  The new LOOK 
<sport pedal should cost about the same.  $80 max for new shoes, and you've 
<spend $160.
 
    
    Why so much?  Quoting Peformance Prices:
    
    WHEELS:
     Campy C-Record Hubset	$129.95
     Campy Omega Rims		  74.95
     Avocet 20K Tires 	
    	3 @ 18.95/ea		  56.85
     Spokes, pkg of 37			
    	2 @ 10.95   		  21.90
     Alloy nipples, box of 75	   6.95
    	
    	TOTAL			$290.60
    	  plus tubes, rim tape, etc. - estimate $25
    
    PEDALS:
     Shimano PD-6401 		$119.95
    	plus shoes - estimate $80
    
    
    I guess I just like to spend money!
    
    	-Nancy

      Yes, well, that about sums it up.  You clearly have certain
      goals (such as using Campy components) for the wheels, which
      entail big prices.  Try pricing the MA40 rims + Campy Record hubs.
    
>     Campy C-Record Hubset	$129.95
>     Campy Omega Rims		  74.95
    
>     plus tubes, rim tape, etc. - estimate $25
    
      Are you sure?  How many tubes?  Don't you have tubes already?
    
>    I guess I just like to spend money!
    
     Hmmm... you said it, I didn't!  :-)

    You're going for some fairly exotic stuff.  At over $10.00 a set
    for the spokes, I assume you're talking about bladed.  The Omegas
    are a sleek aero rim.  The C-Record hubs are the second-most
    expensive you can buy.  (If you really want to spend money, try
    the Mavic freehub -- about $225!)  There are definitely CHEAPER
    ways to go, like Nashbar's deal on complete wheels with C-record 
    hubs and MA40 rims for about the same price as Performance was
    quoting the hubs alone.  
    
    Those chromium aero rims sure are fine-lookin', though....
    
    MATT

Re .23
    
    >You're going for some fairly exotic stuff.  At over $10.00 a set
    >for the spokes, I assume you're talking about bladed.  The Omegas
    
    Nope.  Oval spokes.    The bladed are $22.95 a set.
    
    
    I'm still leaning towards the pedals though.
    
    	-Nancy
    

	RE: .24

	I don't see where the problem is. Why don't you just get both the
	wheels and the pedals. You're going to do it sooner or later. So
	Just Do It.

	Paul
	

  	Colorado Cyclist has C-Record hubs with Omega Hardox Aero's
    for $198, and charges an additional $27 for DT Stainless Bladed
    Spokes for a total of $225.  Avocet K-20 tires cost $18.95 (including
    tubes).  Since they mount them, I assume the rim tape is free.
    
        Although I'm sure the Ultegra pedals are nicer, Bike Nashbar has 
    last years Look Comp pedals for ~$68.
    
    	If you've been really good this year, I say you 'wheel & deal'
    and get yourself _both_ presents.  (although if I had to choose I'd 
    definitely take the pedals and maybe a rear wheel cover)
    
    	Let us know which present(s) you decide on.
    
    Good luck,
    		Nick B...
    

I went to Nashbar and checked out the wheels for 129.XX. These are
NOT C-Record hubs. They are the older Record hubs. I don't know
how much a difference it makers in performance but the hubs definately
don't look as polished and clean as the C-Record.


Just thought I'd let you know.
Mano

    Old record hubs are extremely smooth and tough.  For performance,
    I seriouly doubt record-c will add anything to your performance.
    
    steve

    Well, I ordered a nice pair of shoes from George Gamache on Saturday.
    As soon as they come in I will be buying the Sampson Clipless pedals.
    
    Wheels will probably turn into a fall/winter project.
    
    	-Nancy

    	As a new owner of Sampson clipless pedals, be advised that when
    	you get them it will be impossible to get into them unless you're
    	Godzilla since the adjustment "spring" is a hard rubber/plastic
        rod.
    	
        I had to to remove the rod (by removing the little black cover
    	and the allen bolt underneath) and hacksawing off about 1/8"
    	and then re-inserting it. This gives a reasonable starting point
    	as far as insertion/removal force goes and you can keep increasing
    	it till you get to a point you like by tightening down the allen
    	bolt. Also tightening the allen bolt stops the pedal from spinning
    	freely when the cleat is not engaged (which makes it much easier
    	to step into).
    
    	Good luck,
    	-tom

    Re .30
    
    >	As a new owner of Sampson clipless pedals, be advised that when
    >	you get them it will be impossible to get into them unless you're
    >	Godzilla since the adjustment "spring" is a hard rubber/plastic
    >    rod.
    	
    >    I had to to remove the rod (by removing the little black cover
    >	and the allen bolt underneath) and hacksawing off about 1/8"
    >	and then re-inserting it. This gives a reasonable starting point
    >	as far as insertion/removal force goes and you can keep increasing
    	
    
    I must be a Godzilla, since I seemed to have no problem getting
    in and out of the pedals - that is of course once I finally got
    the cleats properly attached to the shoes - the screws weren't long
    enough to seat in the holes.
    
    I was real nervous about the tension adjustment on these pedals,
    but since I had already asked George Gamache to paint them for me,
    I figured I couldn't change my mind.  But George mentioned that
    he had put in the "new" springs in the pedals - apparently Sampson
    now makes a spring that has less tension in it, doing away with
    the Godzilla problem people have been experiencing.
    
    Now if I can just remeber how to get out at stop signs. . .
    
    	-Nancy

    
                                             
    >     Now if I can just remeber how to get out at stop signs. . .
    
    
    Track Stands