Conference noted::bicycle

    	Well, I'm sort of a novice, but I'll give it a go.
    
    	Most shifting is done by the friction method. You sorta
    	have to feel (and listen) for the derailleur to be in the
    	right position on each gear.
    
    	With indexed shifting (assuming proper adjustment), you
    	simply move the shift lever until it clicks. The derailleur
    	moves over the gear in the correct posture. It's less of
    	a "feel" shift.
    
    	The result, I assume, is that you don't make as many "bad"
    	shifts.
    
    	Novicely,
    	Scott

    Re: .1
    
    Does this require a matched set of front and rear derailleurs *plus*
    special shift levers?  
    
    How reliable are these systems, that is, how often do they go out
    of adjustment?
    
    

> Does this require a matched set of front and rear derailleurs *plus*
> special shift levers?  

	Usualy the rear deraileur, the gear cluster, the rear shift
	lever possibly even the chain must be matched.  I don't think
	the front shifting has click stops but if it does, the front
	deraileur and lever must also be matched.

	Indexed shifting depends on the spacing between cogs, the 
	ammount the rear deraileur moves for a given cable movement 
	and the ammount of cable movement between click stops on
	the shift lever.  Frame flex is a problem because it may
	change the cable path length.
    

Re .-1

The front shifters aren't indexed.  THe front derailleur has to be
"fine-tuned" to accomodate the position of the rear, so that is *not*
an application that lends itself well to an indexed shifter!

Concerning chains...is that conjecture, or fact? (An honest, naive
question)  I'm surprised that the chain would have anything to do with 
it, but I've been wrong before.  I thought it boiled down to a shifter 
with detents for proper relative positioning of the cable, and a 
derailleur for the freewheel positioning.  I *do* seem to notice that 
the rear derailleur has more action to it -- in other words it appears 
to do what you used to do without indexed shifting (overshift a hair 
and then back off after the shift).

Re .-2 concerning adjustments:

I have a newer bike with indexed shifters, and it hasn't needed 
adjustment yet.  I'd expect it to be worse with cable stretch, but 
the relative positionings of the shifter for a given rear cog should
never change, i.e., moving the shifter x millimeters should move the
derailleur y millimeters.  

I'm willing to be overruled by others who've had indexed shifters
longer, but my Suntour Accushift experience has been great so far.

General comment:

I find indexed shifting to have several real advantages, not just
a nice feel.  In rough going, it is great to be able to reach a finger
up, "snick" it into the appropriate gear, and get your finger back to
helping the others hold on.

A completely unexpected benefit (and maybe what I appreciate the most)
is the ability to shift under load.  It works.  Having ridden bikes
for years without indexed shifting, I am still amazed at this.

.jim

    
    I haven't heard of any indexed shifters which have special chain
    requirements. However, I have seen a number of cases in which the
    indexed shifters are matched with rear gear clusters with intentionally
    out of line teeth (mine has this) which improve shifting on indexed
    and non-indexed systems. The drawback (?) is that the gear cluster
    must use a chain which has slightly twisted special links which
    mate the "bent" teeth.
    
    							* MAC *
    

       The "twisted" tooth freewheels are made by Shimano. They also
       make the "Uniglide" chain which is supposed to work best with
       the  freewheels.  I've  used both. The freewheels didn't seem
       better or worse than others (maybe a *little* better shifting
       and  noisier,  but  not  really  enough to notice) I like the
       Uniglide  chain  better  than any other I've tried. It shifts
       much better than the Sedisport or Sedis traveller and doesn't
       eat  my  chain rings the way the Regina does. (All of this is
       on a touring bike with *very* wide range gears.)

--David

    I haven't seen any bar-end ("pinky") shifters for use with indexed
    shifting. Are they impractical because of the longer cable lengths?
    
    (In fact, in the Bike Nashbar or some such catalog, we were unable
    to find any bar-end shifters at all! Maybe it's an oversight, but
    I don't want them to disappear from the market.)
    
    --Dan

I've been told by knowledgable sources that Shimano has bar-end
clickers on the way, probably within the next year.


	~Mike

    Bridgestone's MB-1 comes with drop bars and pinky shifters. Suntour
    Accushift XC-9000. And it's a mountain bike!!! :-)
    
    							--- Neal
    

    Has anybody tried the bar-end rotary indexed shifters for road bikes?
    
    It's a rotary sleeve that covers the end of the bar.  You turn the
    sleeve to shift gears.  It comes with a special drilled bar
    to lead the cables through...
    
    (I want a set because I'm disgusted with downtube shifters that
    keep loosening)
    
    	-Bill                                                           

    
    These aren't bar-end shifters are they (I had 'em on an
    old Motobecane)? 
    
    I thought they were neat and they functioned fine, but the hot 
    riders said they weren't "cool". I later upgraded to a Raleigh..

    Grip Shift is the new "cool" way to shift among the pros and would be
    pros.  It's a bar end barrel shift that allows you to shift by just
    twisting the end of the handlebar.
    
    I guess they used to have this in the old days but it wasn't in
    fashion.  Now, I guess it is.

    The bar-end shifters used to be in fashion among racers because
    they let you shift on the sly.  You could go up a gear and jump
    off the pack before anyone knew what was happening.  The price
    of lower shifting precision was apparently too high, however, and
    the systems became relegated to tourers.
    
    Now click-shifting has made precision a non-issue, so handlebar
    units are back.  The twist grip is just a different style of the
    same thing.  
    
    I think they'd be handy for those upshifts from 53x13 to 53x12,
    when taking a hand off the handlebar to reach a downtube shifter
    takes a lot of guts.  I don't like the idea of giving up handlebar
    real estate to the grip, though -- for those of you who've tried
    them, is this a problem?

    MATT

    I went out pricing GripShift and found that it's extremely expensive
    for what you get... as in $160 a set, for just the knobs and the
    cables.  You have to drill your handlebars- but they at least provide
    you with a drilling template.
    
    Also, I would have to replace my derailleur with an indexed unit,
    and "maybe replace" my freewheel cluster/rear hub.
    
    Yecchhhh...       
    	-Bill

      One of the recent bike mags has a product test on the Grip Shifts.
    They said that they shifted well and did not get in the way.  There
    biggest complaint was that they had to twist the grip too far
    especially so when double shifting.
      This year I put Shimano bar end shifters on all my bikes except
    the mountain bike.  I will never go back to down tube shifters.
    They work just as well down tube shifters and work in friction as
    well as indexed.  The big advantage, easier to get to and I can
    shift while standing up without taking my hands off the bars.  I
    don't care what "looks cool", if something else works better i'll
    but it. 
    
    						Norm

    re. -1
    	I'd consider bar ends, but I have this old Schwinn with
    stem mounted shifters that are real long and on long assents
    I constantly find my right knee hitting the shift lever and
    knocking me out of gear.  I have stayed away from bar-ends for
    the same reason.  Am I wrong?
    						Jerry

I've run all of my derailleur-equipped bikes with Suntour bar-end 
shifters for 15 years now. If you assemble and adjust the things 
properly they shift very nicely, thanks, though I've seen them done 
badly (too many bends in the cable housing and inadequate lube when 
assembling a the usual suspects). I can't recall ever having had an 
accidental shift; more than I can say for some )&%^*$$% C*********-brand 
down tube shifters that nearly got me killed. I have heard stories (who 
knows?) of racers being able to shift an opponents bike into random 
gears ....
                                  ken

      When I first started using the bar-cons I would hit them getting
    on and off the bike.  This is a thing of the past though.
      One thing I started doing last weekend (on purpose) was upshifting
    while sprinting.  I do this by tapping the right bar-con when my
    right knee just starts coming over the top of the pedal stroke.
    It takes a conscious effort to do this and I have never done this
    by accident.  I use the index mode.  I'm not sure what this is doing
    to the cogs,chain and derailleur but everything seems to shift fairly
    smoothly.  
    
    						Norm 

    re -1
    	People that consiously shift with their knees must
    be left handed ;-)   If I don't see any negative comments
    I'll convert the Schwinn to Bar-Ends this winter.  I've 
    been wanting to dump the stem mounted harware ever since
    Ed cautioned me about the *male* implications of sliding 
    over the shifters in an accident.  Bar-ends definately have
    an advantage in this category.  Now, since I'm not really
    interested in the expense of a new indexing system for this
    beatter bike, where to I go for inexpensive, last generation
    Suntour stuff?
    
    						Jerry

    RE:.19
      Actually I'm ambidexterous.
    
    			Norm

    
    I've just bought a racing bike with 'SIS' indexed gears -- mainly
    because they seem to be standard on reasonable quality bikes these
    days. It also has a biopace chainset. 
    
    I was a bit annoyed at having to pay the extra for the gears, until 
    I tried them. Now I'm a convert. The biopace chainset I'm not convinced
    is any different to an ordinary one. But I think the indexed system
    seems to be a little noisier in some gears than in others. No clatter, 
    just more chain noise. But definitely worth it -- I tend to use the
    gears more (especially in traffic) now I get instant, perfect shifts.
    And you're even allowed to pre-select gears when stationery.
    
    This is just in case anyone else, like me, is wary of the new system.
    Don't try it if you don't want to buy it!
    
    Richard.

I have a one year old Dura Ace rear shifter that will sometimes get lost 
between index and friction mode.  I made sure the setting on the shifter is
pointing to index but it doesn't seem to matter.  It comes and goes mysteriously.
I've got about 5k miles on this equipment.  Could it be just plain worn out
so soon?

Any ideas?

Phil

    
    There should be a slot on the top for a flat-head screw driver.
    That is so that you can adjust the friction without changing
    in and out of index mode with the thumb-screw.  It sounds like
    it needs tightening.
    
    Rule of thumb: Always try the simplest solution first ; )
    
    R�

I tried tightening that screw with no success.

Phil

    
    Maybe one of the gasket/washers has lost it's "umph".  If it is too
    skinny to offer resistance to tightening.  My D/A shifters lasted
    well over 5K, but I used them, mostly, in friction mode.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    R�
    

    It's all part of the SPO system.
    
    (Shimano's Planned Obsolescence).
    
    They do break, though mine have lasted a while.
    
    You just try to buy some new ones....
    
    (I think the 8 spd down tube shifters should work well enough.)
    
    ed

    
    Yes.  There is a chain, made by Shimano, specifically for Hyperglide.
    I have examined them, but can't tell you the difference.  Not only
    are you supposed to use a Hyperglide chain, but the chain also has
    a special link.  That link is the only one that you are supposed
    to disengage when removeing the chain for cleaning, etc.   Last,
    but not least, you need a special chain-rivet extractor designed for
    the Shimano-Special-Hyperglide-Link.
    
    It is all a part of the SPO system mentioned in another note,
    Shimano-Planned-Obsolescense.
    
    BTW-You didn't describe in what manner the chain was not running
    smoothly.  Maybe your cogs are worn(?)
    
    r�
                                          

    
    	The Sachs-sedisport chain is hyper glide compatible and doesn't
    have a special link and..seems to be a better chain design.
    
    	

    I just installed a new set of 7-speed Ultegra downtube shifters.  They
    work great, but the shifter for the front derailleur doesn't line up
    with the down tube.  When the lever is pushed forward so that the chain
    is on the small ring, the lever is at an angle with respect to the
    tube.  All my old bikes have been set up so that the lever is parallel
    to the tube.
    
    I even took the shifter apart to see if it had been assembled
    incorrectly and it's a marvel of design for manufacturing.  You simply
    can't assemble it wrong.
    
    I've got the index notch going the right way (up) on the piece which
    covers the mounting sleeve.  With the notch down, the spring tension is
    the wrong way.
    
    Is this the way it's supposed to be?
    
    Jamie 

What's a downtube shifter?

;-)
Tim

    What's index shifting ?
    
    ;-)
    Dave

Jamie,

The 600 Ultegra DT Front derailluer shifter are not parallel to the down tube 
when they are all the way down. The are just a few degrees up. Why? I don't
know. Maybe it's easier to double shift.

Dave 

Ahhhhh....... The good old days.

If you shift both levers with one hand (and if you're a righty,
I guess) you'll come to appreciate that little bit of exposure
to grab on to.

While it may not be as pleasingly esthetic, it is ergonomically
practical.

Enjoy!

Chip

    re .30
    
    I looked for a picture in a catalog to see if it was on right and I
    couldn't find one showing downtube shifters. :-)
    
    re .32
    
    Thanks.  It does make it easier to catch the lever with my right hand. 
    It's amazing how little cable it pulls to shift.
    
    Jamie