Conference noted::bicycle

	You were struck by a motor vehicle and the driver left the scene
	of the accident, right?

	Sure sounds like a criminal offense.  Report it to the police with
	or without a registration plate number.  If there have been other
	complaints, maybe the police have already figured out who they are.

	Make sure the extent of your injuries is known and/or exploited.  Is
	whiplash a possibility (as in delayed symptoms)?  Be on the safe side
	and run up some medical bills.

	Most important, figure out if the police know who they are, and then
	nag the police.  Call regularly to check on progress of the
	investigation.  Drop in regularly and talk to the chief.  Don't forget
	to find out what detectives were assigned to the case.

	Many police departments seem to prefer to let insurance take care
	of everything.  Or, assume the victim won't follow the case.  If
	you nag enough, they'll know you care.

	Or, maybe they're actually waiting for someone willing to testify
	against someone they've already identified...

	Oh, wait.  This happened in Massachusetts?  Car accidents are considered
	acts of God in this state.  -As in not preventable.  Move to another
	state.

	If the police actually do something, be sure to bake them a pie or
	something, so they'll have an incentive to do it again.

Some motorcyclist friends of mine indicate that many police departments
react vigorously when they report things like motor vehicles trying to push
them off the road.  It always appears to me that police take complaints
lees seriously when reported by bicyclists, unless you can show actual
injury, like blood and dirt. 

Here's an idea: report it as a "suspected drunk driver"  Perhaps, you might
have seen something that looked remotely like an aluminum can or amber
bottle in the vehicle?  Come on now you must have seen something!  (smelled
something?)

The problem with Massachusetts is that right of way is patrilineal, you
have it if your father had it. 

I had an officer (in NH) tell me that there has to be actual contact for
there to be an accident, that if you leave the road without actually being
pushed it's not an accident.  I know there was a NH Supreme Court decision
a few years ago that found that "fear of collision" from being pushed was
sufficient to find that an accident had happened and that blame could be 
placed upon the pusher.  The problem is that you have to do a lot of work 
to push that claim.  As it was, I went home, sewed up my sweater and 
recovered.

    
    
    It's funny, I had the same experience at the same place. We were
    on a Plymouth-Ptown day ride which leaves early in the morning.
    There were 120 of us stretched out over several miles of 6A. When
    we were passing through Barnstable this van was getting awfully
    close. The passenger then started yelling at us to get off the road.
    That's when the driver tried to run us off the road, as in swerve
    right in front of our group. He did this for several miles, then
    took off.
    
    But get this. Before we hit the town line, a police cruiser pulled
    us over and gave US a ticket! What for I can't remember, probably
    some obscure law written in the 18th century. We, of course, fought
    it and won.
    
    Bizarre. Maybe the van driver knew the Barnstable police? Maybe
    he was an off-duty cop..............
    
    CdH
    
    

After riding for the last 8 years, I've had my share of near misses and 
discourteous drivers. The best advice I can give you is to be careful, you
don't know who you are dealing with. He/she may have a gun, may be mentally 
deranged, drunk etc. If you catch up to the driver, be careful what you say 
or don't say anything, get a good look at his face and get the license number. 
In many places, you'll have to identify the jerk along with the license 
number to get any chargers to stick. Then follow the advice of .1.

Just remember this. We ride bikes because it is fun. If possible, don't get too
upset and let some asshole spoil it for you. 

It sounds like the person(s) described in .0 and .3 belong in jail. I hope 
they are already there. Just in case they are not in jail, I would like to
lighten up a little. Does anybody know if Rambo rides bikes ? Maybe he
could join us for a ride in that neighborhood and get things straightened
out.

                                         Keith

    In commuting in the Cambridge and Boston area for seven years, I
    was assaulted with a motor vehicle more than once (also by individuals
    and youth gangs).  Generally speaking, I went the other way.  When
    that wouldn't work, the chain I carried to lock the bike (worn around
    waist) could remove a windshield or convince a thug to back off.
     
    The trouble with the approach is that it can lead to escalation.
    
    The one time I called the police (New York State, Motorcycle, not
    bicycle), the state police were simply not interested in the fact
    that someone tried repeatedly to run me off the road with a car.
    
    There are two responses to the brown van, same road.  Both parties
    ought to be on the phone to the police now, not later.
    								John

    I have an idea that very possibly may help.
    I had simmular experinces several years ago and delt with it in
    this way. The advantages are no violence and positive proof of
    partys involved. 
    Try hauling a small 110 or disk camera along and snap a few shots
    in their way. The threat of being caught stopped my problem and
    did provide proof to the local sheriff that I wasent full of air.
    Good luck, and dont back down on pressing charges.
    -Jerry
    

Hi, everybody

I had an incident happen to me about a month ago involving a lady named Dorothy
(of all names). Basically she pulled out in front of me when she had a stop
sign (but didn't come to a complete stop). In fact she didn't even slow down.

What my problem is...is that no one saw the accident happen just the results!
The accident actually didn't cause that much damage to the bicycle or me.
In fact it was $63.00...And a sore back side for a week.

Any way she stopped and asked if I was all right and I just looked at my bike
(the rear wheel was in approximately the shape of a potato chip at this time)
and said "can you give me a ride home?" Two minutes later the police showed up
by chance and asked what happened. She started to say that I drove my bicycle 
right into her car while she was waiting at the stop sign!?! As she was saying
all this I just said to my self! Self, Dorothy (this sweet looking old lady) is
lying though her teeth. "Who do you think anybody is going to believe?" Me 24 
year old 6'2" male riding a bike or Dorothy a sweet looking 50 or 60 year old 
lady TRYING to drive an 86 Buick Regal? Probably Dorothy right!!! After all 
bikers always have a tendency to aim right for the nearest car RIGHT :^}.

Now I just got the word from her insurance company that they're not paying 
anything because no one saw the accident and Dorothy (my favorite person by 
this time) said she was stopped at a stop when I hit her.

So, what do you think I should do? Do you think I can win in small claims 
court? Or, should this be one of the expected "sacrifices" of riding/commuting
on a bicycle? :^(

						Thanks
						John

I'd take her to court.  Let's face it, how many bikers ride into objects?
I think I'd laugh at her version of it, even if I hadn't heard yours first.

.jim

        Where was her car when the police arrived?  In the intersection,
        or back at the stop sign (i.e., she backed up after you ran
        into her)?  What does it say in the police report (you *have*
        seen a copy, right?)?  Find this out as part of the background
        homework you'd need to do anyway.  Also, what did you tell
        the police?  Did you make sure your version of the event got
        into the police report?
        
        Since her insurance company isn't going to pay without a law
        suit, you'll have to sue.  If I were you, I might not waste
        my time in small claims court, since there's a good chance
        that once you sue her the insurance company will get involved.
        Get a real lawyer who will take it on contingency.

        Tom

It's easy for me to tell you to go ahead and fight it;  you'll be the one
doing the work.  Monetarily, I think that you can't win, but you should do it
anyways.  At the very least it will earn some respect for the legal rights of
bicyclists.

I wonder if she actually does think that she stopped, since most people do a
rolling stop instead of a real stop.  Did you hit the bumper, or did you hit
somewhere further back?  If you hit further back, you could probably argue
that she had enterred the intersection.

This might not be appropriate in your case, but I think that the Boston Area
Bicycle Coallition has a list of lawyers that are experienced in bicycle
traffic law.

	Wind, rain, and mud are things the a cyclist should accept as part of
	the cost of cycling.  Law breaking motorists aren't.

			-Jeff Bell

 RE: 81.9 Where was her car when the police arrived?

By the time the police showed up she had backed up and was out of her car!

 RE: 81.9 Police report

Basically it says an accident has happened. No details!

 RE: 81.10 Did you hit her bumper, or did you hit somewhere further back?

That is just my argument with this accident. First of all the stop sign is
about 7 to 10ft. back from the little white line on the side of the road that
we all follow with a bicycle! And where I hit her was at the back of her door
with my rear wheel at the same time I hip-chucked the rear panel of her car. 
This also points out that I was in an emergency stop maneuver! which means I
was going side ways.

I think this should be obvious to any investigative person(s) that she was
in the intersection and over that little white line on the side of the road!

Here's a copy of the claim sent to me by Dorothy's insurance CO.:
**************************************************************************

OUR INVESTIGATION OF THIS ACCIDENT REVEALS THAT OUR INSURED IS NOT
RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR DAMAGES.

ACCORDING TO OUR INSURED, SHE WAS AT A FULL AND COMPLETE STOP AT THE 
TIME OF THE INCIDENT.

(Not to mention in the middle of the intersection) :^{

OUR OBLIGATION AS AN INSURER IS TO PAY LOSSES IF OUR INSURED WAS
RESPONSIBLE FOR CAUSING THE DAMAGE; THEREFORE, WE MUST DENY YOUR
CLAIM.

**************************************************************************

RE: This might not be appropriate in your case, but I think that the Boston Area 
RE: Bicycle Coallition has a list of lawyers that are experienced in bicycle
RE: traffic law. 


Do you or anyone else have a number I can call to find out if this its worth
going into further?

Thanks Jim, Tom and Jeff for your support and anyone else that could be helpful!


					Regards
					J. Warner

RE: This might not be appropriate in your case, but I think that the Boston Area 
RE: Bicycle Coallition has a list of lawyers that are experienced in bicycle
RE: traffic law. 

>Do you or anyone else have a number I can call to find out if this its worth
>going into further?

Dial 491-RIDE to talk to their machine.

-Jeff Bell

Gosh, this sounds so familiar I mighta written it myself - right down to 
the sideways hip into the rear panel!!! Fortunately, in my case there 
were several witnesses, including a doctor (w/bag) and a police officer, 
both were on the scene in under 20 seconds. When the officer saw that 
the doctor was in charge of my health, he took charge of my version of 
Dorothy - he seemed to be taking some delight in going down a ticket and 
checking things off - I recall "Failure to Yield" "Failure to Stop for 
Oncoming Vehicle" "Unsafe Operation" "Reckless Endangerment" - he was 
still looking when I got carried off for x-rays to the hospital (4 
blocks away).

Anyway, I think you have a good case for any/all of the above charges to 
be brought against Dorothy, as well as something on the order of 
"Leaving the Scene" or whatever - essentially she moved her car out of 
the intersection to remove evidence of her wrongdoing. Perhaps this 
could all get started up by talking to someone senior at the PD?

Finally, based on all that my Dorothy's insurance co. was tickled pink 
to pay me for parts, and even for the time I spent rebuilding my rear 
wheel. My feeling is that you should get the police to do their job, 
based on the evidence (where you hit the car, etc.), and if you can do 
that, it oughta free up the ins. co. a great deal. My accident was 
better planned than yours (witnesses, police, hospital, fire station to 
leave damaged bike all within a couple blocks), but I bet you have 
strong enough evidence to get some satisfaction, if you get the police 
to buy in on it.
                                          g'luck!!!!!
                                          ken

    This probably isn't going to make me any friends in this conference
    and if this isn't the right spot in the conference, Mr. Moderator,
    please move it.  I am new to this conference and to biking for 
    excersise and fun, and am lucky to have not had any close calls
    so far.  Anyway,  what about discourteous cyclists?  A few weeks
    ago I was traveling down rt. 125 in N. Andover and this guy is 
    riding in the middle of the lane.  He looked like a serious rider
    by his appearance and equipment and would not move to the side of
    the road.  He knew I was behind him.  After maybe 10 seconds, I
    got to pull into the opposite lane and I let him know how I felt 
    about him and his mother.  I am usually a patient person on the
    road and *very* rarely react to others in a hostile way (the bird),
    but this guy got my blood boiling.  I belive in sharing the road
    with cyclists and runners, but not all cyclists are saints, and
    no one should resort to fist-a-cuffs to get their point across.
    
    Any comments, concerns or questions?
    
    Gary

         I probably would have been right there beside you giving
         the guy an earful.

         As far as criticism goes, I see more complaints, articles
         etc. about poor riding habits from other bikers than
         non-bikers. I think that we are our biggest critic. The
         reason I am sensitive to how people ride on the roads is
         that I would rather not have bikers getting a bad name
         because of somebody's bad habits. It is the "one bad apple"
         theory.

         By the way there is a similar attitude that goes along with
         motorcycles. Some of the biggest complainers about bad
         motorcycling habits that I have ever heard came from people
         who were trying very hard to do the right thing.

         I always get aggravated by people breaking traffic laws on
         *any* vehicle.

         JC

 >>   but this guy got my blood boiling.  I belive in sharing the road
 >>   with cyclists and runners, but not all cyclists are saints, and
 >>   no one should resort to fist-a-cuffs to get their point across.
 
I was riding home from work one day last year when a young lady was riding her
bike on the wrong side of the road (she was riding into the traffic). I was
riding straight at her and she at me. I moved out into the traffic so she could
pass me on my right. Now this was a person that was fully decked out with all
the cycling trim (helmet ect.), so I figured she would under stand when I told
her in a plain voice, "Your on the wrong side of the road". She in turn said,
"F#@%-YOU!". I was so taken by suprise that I just laughed. Oh Well.

Tom

    Just witnessed this testosterone-drenched encounter in downtown Nashua:
    
    A car with two male occupants stopped in a line of traffic at a
    stoplight.  Cyclist rides slowly down the right side of the line, pump
    in hand, and stops at the passenger side of the car.  (Many explitives
    deleted in the following parapharse.)
    
    	YOU [..] [..], LEARN TO DRIVE!! YOU CUT ME OFF BACK THERE!!  GET
    	OUT OF THE CAR, YOU [..] [..]!!! (brandishing the pump)
    
    A short pause, then the cyclist raps the car smartly with the pump,
    remounts, and turns down a side street.  Meanwhile, the passenger
    (or driver, I was trying not to stare) emerges:
    
    	YOU [..] [..]!  COME BACK HERE, YOU COWARD!!  [..] [term
    	describing cyclist's sexual preference]!!
    
    The light changed, the passenger got back in, and the car (which had
    been intending to go straight) took the right down the side street,
    after the cyclist.  What happened next I can only speculate...
    
    In reading this over, it almost sounds funny, but the raw anger and the
    potential for mayhem gave me the shakes, and I wasn't even involved.
    
    Andy

    There must be sun spots or something causing lunacy in some
    people.  While bicycling to HLO this morning I got cut off
    at a rotary by a car determined to drive over a curb rather than
    give me the right of way, then later on a truck pulled out right 
    in front of me, after I had maintained eye contact with the driver 
    and was sure he saw me.
    I'm not looking forward to the ride home.
    
    nmp