Conference terri::cars_uk

    I <think> I know what you mean, yes, they appear in a few places I've
    noticed and seem quite detrimental. Maybe some obvious point eludes me,
    but the small ones I find at mini roundabouts I just pootle straight
    over (as does everybody else).
    
    I can see the point of some large ones, however.. the scenario is like
    this. Coming off a roundabout there is two lanes, but further down the
    road it reduces to one. I can see the use of hatchings here, to try and
    make traffic flow uniformly and without those annoying ar%%holes who
    have to shoot down the outside and force their way in at the front.
    
    Any other ideas?
    
    In full agreement, yours..
    	Dan.
    

    I think the idea is to guide those of us with no lane discipline onto
    the roundabout itself. In other words it's to try to prevent "the
    geezer pulling up to the roundabout on your nearside, who then proceeds
    to try to get to the 'inside' lane of the roundabout (ie. your lane)
    before leaving the roundabout at the exit of his or her choice...
    usually without indicating any manouvre at any time either".
    
                                                       

   > I can see the point of some large ones, however.. the scenario is like
   > this. Coming off a roundabout there is two lanes, but further down the
   > road it reduces to one. I can see the use of hatchings here, to try and
   > make traffic flow uniformly and without those annoying ar%%holes who
   > have to shoot down the outside and force their way in at the front.
    
    Hmmm. maybe, but I'm thinking of two places in particular (that I know
    off) where they seem to make no sense whatever.  
    
    1. Roundabout at the Stratfield ?Saye? (I think that's how you spell it)
       end of the Swallowfield end of the By-pass.  Here they have reduced
       the entry lanes to one on both the roads coming from Basingstoke and 
       from Beech Hill. Both are effectively single carriage-way roads emerging
       into dual carriage-way.  The roundabout itself is quite capable of 
       taking two lanes of traffic (provided that people maintain lane 
       discipline - another story).
    
    2. At the road emerging on the A33 at the Stratfield Saye Wellington
       Monument, coming from the A32/Bramshill.  Here you now have to
       single-lane-queue if you want to turn left towards Basingstoke.
    
       
    I'm sure that there are many more examples.  As to further
    theories.......what about the creation of an ideal parking
    place for Mario's Kabab van? 
    
    
    Paul
    

re.1:

>I can see the use of hatchings here, to try and
>make traffic flow uniformly and without those annoying ar%%holes who
>have to shoot down the outside and force their way in at the front.
    
If there are two valid lanes converging into one, then it's logical to merge the
traffic at the point the lanes meet for optimum efficiency, the behaviour
required being that both lanes continue to move unless obstructed, each lane
taking turns vehicle by vehicle to merge. If there is an obstruction caused by,
for example, sheer weight of traffic, then this still works efficiently by
enabling the maximum number of cars to queue before blocking of prior junctions
occurs.

A good example in Reading is the A33 northbound outside DEC Park, where two
lanes merge into one. Here the traffic is frequently backed up and the use of
both lanes for queuing keeps the M4 J11 roundabout clear most of the time.

Dave.

    I agree, even on the exact place you refer to...
    
    ...but people never behave quite that rationally do they. Someone on
    the outside lane always vows he won't let anyone in, or else somebody
    in the other lane dangerously pushes in, and tensions grow, and so
    on....
    
    .... it's just a case of too much traffic, too little road, and not
    enough kebab vans to put on the hatchings.
    
    Dan.
    :-D

re.5:

Well (!), I drive down there everyday, take the outside lane, and encounter
inside laners who won't let me in, or lorries who swerve out into my path. I
think the outside laners are blameless in this matter.

Dave.

Not trying to confuse the issue but.......
When doing advanced driving etc I was always taught that white hatching is NOT
compulsory traffic discipline line ie only guidelines

therefore if road other side looks clear use it!

On roundabouts it is only trying to help out the ditherers who switch lanes
and manage to use 3 lanes whilst going round the thing
Alan

    re .6
    
    Not this old chestnut !
    
    Royston

    re.6
    
    What's your reg? I'll let you in any time (ooer)!!
    
    Dan, normally in the outside lane cause he's afraid he won't be able
    to get in at the other end.
    
    

    From memory, the highway code states that if the chevrons are bordered
    by a broken line, they can be crossed if it is safe to do so, if the
    lines are unbroken, the chevrons cannot be crossed.  This makes sense,
    otherwise people would have to do a complete circuit of the Basingstoke
    Town Centre ring road/one way system before being able to turn off.
    (The top sections has two lanes separated by chevrons bordered by
    broken lines).
    
    tmp

Re: .7

>When doing advanced driving etc I was always taught that white hatching is NOT
>compulsory traffic discipline line ie only guidelines


There are two kinds of "white hatching", one with solid lines around the
edge and one with dashed lines. It is an offence to drive over hatching
with solid lines (except in an emergency), but Ok to cross ones with
dashed lines. However, if you are involved in an accident whilst driving
over the dashed ones it can be taken as "ignoring a traffic sign" or some
similar offence, so you may end up in more trouble.

Whether the big white dot on mini-roundabouts has a solid or dashed edge
i don't know?

mb

    Or perhaps...
    To restrict entry onto the roundabout to give a different entry a
    higher(=wider entry) priority.
    i.e. your entry road has 1 approach lane
         the next entry has 3 approach lanes
    
    Just a half-formed idea  :-|
    
    Tony
    

After 5 years of driving round the Ring Road, now he tells
me!

re.14:

Amazing! How did you refuel?

Dave.

...it's a diesel

    �   it's a diesel
    
    A 'Calibra diesel'. Now theres an oxymoron !
    
    Royston
    
    

    I think that I've sussed it. It's all about altering your angle of
    approach to junctions and roundabouts.  They could make you drive more
    `prettily' around corners and exits of roundabouts without straying into
    other people's lanes.  There's one ON a roundabout in Basingstoke that
    I spotted last night.  It seems to trim the left hand lane of the
    roundabout, effectively extending the curb-line into the road by 2-3
    feet at the lines thickest.  If you're taking the first off the
    roundabout, the lines force you to exit at an angle in which you are
    unlikely to stray into the offside lane (this particular exit is very
    angular when approached from the previous roundabout entrance - if you
    see what I mean).
    
    (rathole alert)
    Ref a few back.  Basingstoke road Northbound from J11 M4.  Two
    thoughts:
    
    1. Crazy - M4 East and West bound traffic + that from A33 emptying onto
       single carriage-way road.  Problems in the morning could be solved
       or alleviated by pinching/buying 4 ft of Digital's frontage and 
       painting two lanes along the length of the rest of the Basingstoke road 
       into Reading.
    
    2. Who are these self-righteous bas$�@ds that don't understand that if
       there are two lanes on a road they can both be used - you don't
       straddle the lanes deliberately just because you didn't think of going
       down the outside lane yourself.
    
    Oh well - got that off my chest
    
    Paul 
                                               

    < 2. Who are these self-righteous bas$�@ds that don't understand that if
    <   there are two lanes on a road they can both be used - you don't
    <   straddle the lanes deliberately just because you didn't think of going
    <   down the outside lane yourself.
    
    Has anyone noticed an increasing trend for lorry drivers to form a
    slow moving roadblock, on motorways at least, when they know a lane
    merge is up ahead ?   I presume this is to stop cars pushing in in
    front of them...
    
    I've seen a lorry block the road from the junction 11 towards DECpark,
    but last night I got stuck for an hour behind two trucks westbound on the
    M4 appraching the roadworks around junction 10.  The one truck was
    straddling lanes 1/2, while the other as busy with 2/3.  They must have
    been moving at 5-10 mph with a huge gap opening up between them and the
    'free' traffic in front.
    
    This can't be legal........  What should one do ?  I must admit to
    being tempted by the gap between the truck 'looking after' lane 3 and
    the crash barrier - I know it's illegal......
    
    Is this becoming common lorry driver behaviour ?
    
    -Dave.
    
    

    One thing I will say for a lot of lorry drivers, when it comes to slow
    moving traffic and roadworks, they have a lot more sense than most
    drivers (ie. they find conservation of momentum a lot more important,
    and so drive smoothly and slowly instead of stop/starting).
    
    But I know what you mean - sometimes it looks like they're all on their
    CB's arranging a road block!
    
    Hmm - <thinks>.
    
    Dan
    :-)

re .19


Apart from being a completetly different topic, which I am sure has been 
discussed many times before.....

is there any reason why you needed to rush past the lorry to reach an obstruction
2 seconds before anyone else. Nothing more infuriating than drivers believing
that they do not need to merge until the last couple of feet and causing the
moderate drivers to brake whilst they squeeze into the tightest of gaps

Alan

    re .1
    
    It definitely is 3. And ONLY 3., traffic flow is NOT a criterium in
    this one. 
    The idea has been practiced over here in the Netherlands since some 3
    years back.
    The idea is to make crossings easier to overview so as to reduce the
    number of accidents. Truely that's it. I followed up my apoplexi and
    went to the bottom of it and got to written statements of this effect
    by the DOT!
    The same idea is behind reverting to single lane, miniature roundabouts
    over here.
    
    Although heavily critised by the routined and professional drivers, the
    elderly, shopping, and casual users are enthusiastic and they are in the
    majority! Tough luck to the rest.... Some consolation to the happy few
    is that motorbikes can get through more easily. 
    
    Now if you think th'is is bad enough, you just wait untill the plastic, 
    stick-on, road "deviders" they started using over here reach the UK!
                                                    
    Peter

    re .21..
    
    Following a few trips from Fife to Solent and back recently, with all
    the roadworks all over the place, I have seen some quite unbelievably
    stupid behaviour when it comes to merging in prior to a contra-flow....
    
    I generally start looking to merge at around the 800 yds sign, nad the
    watch all the Richard Edwards drop two gears and accelerate towards the
    200yds sign as fast as they can.. ** just beat that
    lorry/van/caravan/anything_that_MIGHT_go_slower_than_me!!!
    
    Also, when stationary, approaching a contraflow, you see other Richards
    pull out from the MERGED lane and blast off towards the top of the
    queue!!!! All to get there about a minute quicker!!, and also forcing
    everybody to brake, and make the tailback longer....
    
    They all seem to drive Cavaliers or mondeos etc with an "i" on the
    back.
    
    Stands for "idiot" or imbecele or "inconsiderate *****ole"
    
    These are just a couple of reasons for the mobile roadblocks.
    
    It happens up here in Scotland too, but to a far lesser extent. Is it
    something to do with living closer to the equator ???? 8-)
    
    Dave, who always "tries" to be patient with dipsticks.
    
    

    < is there any reason why you needed to rush past the lorry to reach an 
    < obstruction 2 seconds before anyone else. 
    
    That's not really my issue, but I agree there's no point.  But that
    doesn't give them the right to employ obstructive tactics.
    
    Anyway, the trucks started doing this 4 miles before there was any 
    evidence of the temporary westbound 3 into 1 lane merge.  Hardly rushing 
    up and squeezing in at the last moment.......
    
    Apologies for the diversion, now back to the topic thread.
    
    -Dave.
    
    

    Since the topic is "Strange Road Markings", could I note about the
    'lack' of some...
    
    Having only just moved into Reading, I've found it rather embarrassing
    over the past 2 weeks to be approaching an island in what would seem to
    be a perfectly fine lane, only to find a painted arrow in the road
    telling me it's for left turns only .... about 2 metres from the island
    itself!! How annoying?! I can either sit with my indicator on a wait
    for someone to let me in, or I can nail it around the roundabout and
    cut someone up in the process....
    
    ....still, I'm starting to learn where they all are now. Good thing, I
    suppose!
    
    Dan, the one who'll probably cut you up by mistake on a Reading
    roundabout! Sorry in advance...
    
    :-)

Back to orginal note
Can anyone confirm type of hashes (ie broken line or unbroken)
Have only seen the unbroken kind

Alas can anyone explain what Highway Code says about them, from what i have heard
it is very ambiguous

Going on previous reply I can only add that the Newbury/Basingstoke/Reading 
triangle is the worsts area I have ever lived in for number of roundabouts
both mini and normal, plus double roundabouts, and most inconsistent road 
markings associated with them


:-)
Alan

RE: .25

I've found myself in that situation sometimes!

How to say sorry?

Mark.

    re:.25
    
    ... or take the left you've been forced into and U-turn later - just
    the sort of really safe manoevre the road planners had in mind, I'm
    sure (not).
    
    Andy (who's also suffered from this oop north)

>    Can anyone confirm type of hashes (ie broken line or unbroken)
>    Have only seen the unbroken kind

    I've been looking for solid outlined hatching since it was pointed
    out a few replies back that there were more than one type.  To date
    broken outline is all I've found.......
    
>   Alas can anyone explain what Highway Code says about them, from what i
>   have heard it is very ambiguous
    
    After 22 years of driving, I'm going to buy the highway code but
    before I even look at the explanation for hatching I sure that it will
    be deliberately vague.  After all, if laws in this country weren't
    deliberately vague, we'd have no need for as many lawyers, solicitors
    and the like - in fact we'd probably have a Bill of Rights...........
    
    I digress (again). 
    
    I'm still spotting strange hatched areas. These ones differ to my earlier
    descriptions in that they shave bits off the nearside of the left
    hand lane on the approach to roundabouts (Halfords Superstore roundabout 
    on the A33 when approached from Winchester direction). Don't seem to
    serve any purpose other than to reduce the width of the left hand lane?  
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    �I'm still spotting strange hatched areas. These ones differ to my earlier
    �descriptions in that they shave bits off the nearside of the left
    �hand lane on the approach to roundabouts (Halfords Superstore roundabout 
    �on the A33 when approached from Winchester direction). Don't seem to
    �serve any purpose other than to reduce the width of the left hand lane?  
    
    Correct. All they do is take the approach to the roundabout to two
    lanes.
    
    As someone who used to use that particular roundabout every day when
    that approach to the roundabout had three lanes, it was the best move
    anyone could have made. Three lanes onto a roundabout which is only
    two and a half lanes wide is a recipe for disaster, especially when all
    three lanes are occupied by people who all want to take the same exit
    from the roundabout! 
    
    I think that approach road was designed by someone who had shares in a
    bodywork repair centre.
    
    Steve
         
         

At the A33/J11-M4 roundabout heading north into Reading a two lane
dual-carriageway goes into three lanes on the roundabout. Should be no problem
but...

Of those in the left lane about 15% turn left - no problem.

About 5% go straight on keeping in the left lane - no problem.

About 35% go from the left lane to the middle, ok if done carefully but few
signal their intention.

About 40% go from the left lane to the middle and back again (cut the corner)!

About 5% go from the left lane right across to the right lane!

Dave.

    < is there any reason why you needed to rush past the lorry to reach an 
    < obstruction 2 seconds before anyone else. 
    
To escape the exhaust fumes being pumped directly into your
car!

re .31
And don't forget those drivers who indicate right at roundabouts
and then go straight on. It seems to happen more in Hampshire
than anywhere else.

    Yes, Saw one today,
    
    2 lanes onto the roundabout, 3 lanes on the RA & 2 lanes off.
    
    Car in left lane with rh turn indicator on, which flicks to lh as he
    effectively goes straight on.
    
    The message is clear, "Give me a wide berth, I dont know what the �v(%
    I'm doing, & nor do you".
    
    Tony.

   RE. .29

   >>    Can anyone confirm type of hashes (ie broken line or unbroken)
   >>    Have only seen the unbroken kind

   > I've been looking for solid outlined hatching since it was pointed
   > out a few replies back that there were more than one type.  To date
   > broken outline is all I've found.......
    
   Solid line hatchings can be spotted at motorway junctions, between the 
   slip road on/off the motorway and the inside lane. 

   Cheers,
    Diane (oh b&%*^r ... I use that area for checking the map ;^) )

    Solid outline hatching is also found in box junctions.
    
    There the absolute prescription against driving on solid 
    hatching is modified by the colour (yellow), the sign
    saying do not enter box unless your exit is clear and the
    appropriate section of the Highway Code.