Conference terri::cars_uk

	Off hand, without drilling holes, no.  The problem is that there
	are usually only two upper mountings and they are at the side of
	the car  (just like the front belts).  So, you don't have any point
	to mount a 4 way harness to.  There are 4 way harnesses on the
	market and some do come with mounting kits, but they usually
	require drilling - depends how brave you are.

	Dave

	And will not use the middle seat belt for children or adults.

    Some child seats come with an integral harness.  You then fix the seat
    to the car with either a lap and diagonal or lap-only belt.  These are
    reasonably safe (there was a Which? report on seats a couple of months
    ago).
    
    Boots certainly used to do one (which I bought) and I think it was a
    rebadged Kangol (?).
    
    My advice would be to get the Which? report and follow their advice.
    
    Jon

    I remembered a reply to a letter in August 1993 "What Car".  A company
    called Autotrim (0484-666333) produce a kit which adds upper straps to
    a lap belt which makes it a full body harness for age 4 upwards.  Cost
    is approximately �50 fitted or �25.20 plus postage for the kit.  The
    harness is tested to BSI E16 and Euro standard E44.  The company is
    Autotrim Specialist Services, Honley, Huddersfield.  It sounds safer
    than rear 3 point belts!  However, from the photograph in the magazine
    it's fitted to a saloon car and therefore probably can't be fitted to a
    hatchback car (no fixed metal parcel shelf).  Worth giving them a call
    anyway even if you have a hatchback.  Let us know how you get on.
    
    
    David
    
      

    The cost is #35.25 inc post & vat and it is suitable for most cars
    including cavaliers & my current citroen bx.  I'm just about to order
    one & will post an update when I've fitted it.
    
    	Regards,
    		dave
    

    The belt requires a 1/2 inch or 10mm hole drilling in the boot as far
    back as possible and as central as possible.  As I didn't have such a
    drill my local dealer kindly drilled one at my next service.  Into the
    hole you fit an "eye" bolt.  Attached to this via a quick release clip
    is the seat belt.  A single strap goes from the bolt to the back of the
    rear seat and then splits into two, one piece going over each shoulder.  
    The existing lap belt is then threaded through each end of these.
    You use the lap belt as "normal" and adjust the shoulder straps to fit.
    
    You can't use it with a 50/50 split rear seat and you may have to also
    take a small piece out of your parcel shelf.  My 6 year old has used it
    on a long journey and finds it OK.  You can use it with a booster seat
    but we found that because of the slope of the rear seat the lap belt
    was being pulled up over his stomach.  The instructions also say it can
    be used for adults but after talking to some of the guys at Ford who
    design seat belts they reckon that if your shoulders are abover the top
    of the seat then you shouldn't use this because in an accident you will
    get pushed down, start to submarine in your seat and could compress
    your spine !
    
    The biggest disadvantage of the belt is that the boot space is divided
    and you have to be careful loading it up so that the belt is not
    obstructed etc. I can live with this though as I prefer the safety
    advantages.
    
    	Regards,
    		dave
                    

    I have just acquired a 1989 (G-reg) Renault Espace.  Having been told 
    by more than one person that it is possible to fit three-point inertia- 
    reel belts to the outside rear seats (to replace the lap-straps which 
    are standard), I have now been told by several main dealers (and Brown 
    Brothers in Reading) that only static three-point belts are available.  
    I am not very happy about this as static belts and lap straps both have 
    major shortcomings.
    
    Does anyone out there know of a suitable conversion that would allow me 
    to fit three-point inertia-reel belts?
    
    Ian
    

    
    	Did anyone catch the "Face the facts" programme on Radio 4
    wednesday night,where rear seat lap belts were discussed,and several
    people were interviewed,one poor girl had no bowel left as a result
    of injuries inflicted by a 30mph crash from a lap belt.Various other
    "horror stories" around broken backs,crushed spines etc.
    
    It finished up by saying that there are far more people walking around
    whose lives were saved by rear lap belts that those who died because
    of them,but at the end of the day I guess its about economics. I
    certainly will be looking at other options for the center lap belt..
    
    On a related topic,has anyone noticed the almost total disregard for 
    seat belt laws displayed by van drivers ? Next time you are in a 
    jam,do a "straw poll" of van drivers,and you will probably find that
    75% are not wearing seat belts. OK,I know that the law says that
    delivery drivers are exempt,but plumbers ? builders ? and every other
    kind of drivers. Anyway ,even if I was a delivery driver in and out
    of the cab every minute,I would still wear a belt,wouldnt you ?
    
    					Mick
    

    RE:.7
    
    My wife was telling me sometime back about the research in the area of
    lap belts on planes and the damage that they can do to a passengers
    body (okay the crash may kill but the state the bodies are in from
    what the lap belt did to them is not nice to know).
    
    Dave

The new Peugot 306 SEDAN (saloon to you and I) on sale from 13th in the UK
has in the rear 3 three point inertia seat belts. i.e. no lap belts!

Richard

    Even with a 3 point belt there are some tragic injuries.
    
    The most common one is readily prevented.  Empty the bladder before and
    keep it empty during the journey.  Most common internal injury is a
    burst bladder from being compressed by the lap belt.  This is very
    difficult to treat.  If the bladder is kept empty it is less likely to
    burst.