Conference terri::cars_uk

�    diesel estate broke - the engine stopped immediately - luckily I
    ^^^^^^^
�    what is the likelyhood of valve/piston damage as I believe the pistons
�    on the Peugeot are "dished".
    
    I thought that diesel engines used very high compression ratios,
    which would involve smaller chambers (wouldn't they ?).
    
    If this is the case, I would expect piston damage, although I have no
    idea what the combustion chamber shape/design is like.
    
    J.R.

    The local Peugeot garage took the rocker cover off today. The cam
    shaft is in 3 pieces. The senario seems to be the cam belt broke
    leaving 1 valve in number 2 cylinder, the piston hit the
    valve which instead of bending broke the camshaft at the lobe and
    middle bearing support. The garage have said it would take 4-5 hours
    to remove the cylinder head (a claim I strongly dispute) and it
    would make more sense to just replace the engine at a cost of 2000
    pounds. I suspect they aren't prepared to repair the existing engine
    and an option swap is quicker. I told the garage I would seek a second 
    opinion at which point they said it would only cost 60 pounds to
    remove the head (this obviously isn't 4-5 hours work). The garage 
    said they have my best interest at heart but this seems to be
    defeatism and how to make a fast buck/pound. I now have a certain
    distrust of the garage!! I'll post another update shortly
    
    Cheers....Norm Pettet
    

    A similar thing happened to the strife's 1985 Escort (CVH 1.3 Engine)
    the other week. The timing belt snapped as she pulled up at a road
    junction. I was horribly confused when I rolled up in my car to
    try and get it started. There was no fuel nor sparks - incredible
    for two faults to occur at the same time!! Being truly "stumped"
    I had no option but to tow it round to the local garage. The guy
    peered into the oil filler 'ole whilst I turned the engine over
    and instantly shouted "that'll be 250 pounds please!" It turns out
    that when the timing belt snaps everything stops, ie fuel pump,
    distributor, chuckle chocks, knacker thrashing plates, etc, etc.
    This is a very common problem on this particular Ford CVH Engine.
    
    Anyway, the good news is that it hadn't damaged the valves/rods, as
    per note .0. According to the garage guy this was only the second
    time in his considerable experience (he's quite old) that a broken
    belt had not effectively written-off the engine. We only got charged
    the cost of fitting a new timing belt and adjustments, etc., around
    35 pounds.  
    
    The moral of this story is that timing belts must be replaced according
    to the service book, at 36000 miles in the Ford case. The alternative
    can be VERY expensive unless you're lucky. I admit that I did not
    replace the belt (I do the normal servicing) since it looked "OK"
    and didn't appreciate the importance of it. Perhaps the Haines manuals
    should highlight "essential" work from your normal "preventive"
    servicing tasks.
    
    Ian
    

   re: .3

    The same happened to a friends 1.3 Escort. Again, no damage to the
    engine. I can only assume that the valves don't get that close to
    the piston at TDC.

   re: .2

    2000 sounds rather a lot to pay. A rebuild should be less than 1000
    I would have thought, although I didn't read the note which mentioned 
    which car is was.

  Mark

       Re .3
       I wonder how many other people have suffered this. Fortunately, when
       the belt went on my Escort I had only had the car a month, and I
       claimed the cost of the damage from the garage that sold it to me.

       The damage occurs, of course, because as the belt disintegrates
       it starts to slip and the camshaft gets out of synch with the
       pistons. You were obviously lucky enough for the belt to fly off
       suddenly at just the right moment. Very rare. 

       Re .2
       What garage is this, Norm? (Is it approximately 25 miles south of
       where you work with the initials W-S?)

       Ian.

    The same happened to me about three years ago on my XR3i but I
    was'nt so lucky it actually cost me 250 quid to get most of the
    valves replaced.
     The garage said it was to do with the water pump seizing as this is
    driven by the cam belt. I think Ford actually changed the spec for
    the mileage before camshaft belts should be replaced.
    
    
    Regards
    Martin
    

�       where you work with the initials W-S?)
    
    Would this refer to a garage 'chain' which now has the initials W-K ?

    ref .5
    
    Ian,
    
    	your starter for 10 The garage initials are C-G
    
    Anyway they are taking the head off today after I got a second opinion
    (the maximum time to take the head off is 1.5 hours!!) depending
    on what they find will determine whether they fix it or another
    garage. I'll keep you all posted, in the meantime thankyou for your
    replies. I think the moral of this story is change your cam belt
    every 30000 miles regardless what it says in the handbook.
    
    Cheers....Norm Pettet
    
    
                                 

    Update
    ------
    
    	The garage took the head off today. The verdict is:-

        1) Every valve has hit its associated piston
    	2) Each piston has movement (number 2 piston can be turned 1/4
    	   inch so suspect little end/pins and piston require replacement
    	3) The cylinder head is cracked
    	4) Camshaft broken in 2 places
    	5) The bores are OK however
    
    	The cost of parts + labour to repair is 1700 pounds The garage
    (after a little persuasion) agreed to put in a new engine for 1800
    pounds. 
    
    	The moral of this story is ALWAYS replace your cam belt at 30,000
    miles regardless of what it says in the handbook. It may cost you
    100 pounds to replace but failure to do so (as I found out) is a
    hell of a lot more expensive.           
                                 
    You have been warned!!!!
    
    Norm

When does the handbook say the cam belt should be changes in the Peugeot ???


Karen

      (whose a bit nervous 'cos my 205 XLD has done 50,000 miles and the
cam belt has not been changed)

    Re -1
    
    I think the Ford Escort engine is more susceptible to this than the
    Peugeot, but at 50,000 I would consider getting it replaced!
    
    ..Craig

Alfa used to recommend replacement every 35,000 miles on the Boxer engine and,
suprisingly for Alfa Romeo, the belts were dirt cheap and it only took 30 mins
to replace them both.

Dick

    I have heared some rumours about this happening on 309's and BX's, but
    never seen first hand evidence. If your concerned check with your
    dealer!.
    
    Richard

    ref .10
    
    	According to a couple of garages I've contacted the cambelt
    should be changed before 50,000 but there doesn't seem to be any
    hard and fast rules regarding when. After my experience I would
    recommend you get it checked ASAP, the cost of replacement is about
    100 pounds- cheaper than a new engine :-)
                                   
    Cheers....Norm Pettet
    

    About BX and Peugeot's: Never heard of it.
    I have drive BX diesel and drive a 16 TGI now, not trouble.
    
    One of my previous cars had this problem though.
    I have had the camshaft slip one tooth, so the valves were
    ticking againgst the pistons after driving the car downhill when
    speeding to Hull (I like to prevent arguments on missing hills in
    Holland). The VW Passat 1500 CC diesel did not like to driven 100 M/h.
    
    It did no do any harm, garage readjusted the timing and all went well.
    
    Hans