Conference terri::cars_uk

    It`s not only new cars that have this on it. A lot of second hand
    dealers are putting them on too. I know if I bought a second hand or
    new car and it had one of those on it I`d be telling them where they
    could put their plaque. I`d at least want them to remove the plaque and
    attend to any damage on a second hand car.
    
    				  Ian.

    No you are not being fussy, I also find it irritating. Over here
    in Holland dealers also have the annoying habit of sticking the "NL"
    badge on the paintwork instead of on the rear window.
    
    Tim 

    I believe the reason they are doing it is because dealers will not
    be able to "advertise" on number plates in the near future.  Therefore,
    if Joe Public decides to take the plastic sticker out of his rear
    window, the dealer will no longer be getting free advertising.
    
    I agree with the base note.  Not only do cars (generally speaking)
    have enough badges on the back, but these additional badges are
    in my opinion rather tacky. 
    
    It's interesting to note that the "perceived quality" franchises
    like BMW and Mercedes have not resorted to this practice.
    

>>    It's interesting to note that the "perceived quality" franchises
>>    like BMW and Mercedes have not resorted to this practice.

not true (unfortunately) i've seen loads of these tacky badges on new mercs & 
new bmw's . The Mercedes dealers in Coventry & Birmingham put them onto both
new & used cars.


...art

    Re .2
    
    Guernsey in the Channel Islands has a good solution for displaying
    the nationality plate.  All number plates include on the right hand
    side the GBG symbol, legally-correct size and shape, for example:
    
                  12345 (GBG)
    
    If this were adopted across Europe, you would escape the situation
    that .2 describes. 
    

    
    I always thought that the 'Dealer's Stickers', on the rear window,
    were there to help you with reversing ;-)
    
    Merc and BMW are available now without the gleaming, crome, 'Series 
    Denoter'. That should leave enough room for the poxy plastic garage
    sticker ;-)
    

    My 316i has "no model identification" (as BMW call it), mainly because
    I don't see the need for all and sundry to see exactly what model
    I'm driving, and also because I don't want people to know its ONLY
    a 316i and not a 325i (though we all know how to spot the difference
    at a hundred yards).
    
    In my opinion there's nothing worse than seeing, for example, the
    following on the back of a car:
    
    Cavalier 2.0 L i
    
    I know its a Cavalier
    I don't NEED to know its a 2 litre model
    I don't WANT or NEED to know its an "L"
    Who cares if its got fuel-injection?
    

    The Japanese are some of the worst offenders..
    eg:
    
    Mitsuhondasakihatsu 3.0i GLXS 4wd turbo landcruiser special
    
    you need a 10ft wide car just to get the badges on..!!
    
    :-) :-) :-) 

	Even worse are the large paint jobs down the sides saying things
	like SRi.  I guess 'cos the boxes look the same, you've got to add
	stuff to differentiate between them so that people  can tell your
	status in life.  Which is, of course, what the letter in the 
	numberplate is for.

	Of course, this only applies to ordinary cars, no one in their
	right mind would do this to a Ferrari...

	Dave

    
    When I come up behind a car, I like to know what engine its got so that
    I can determine the overtaking distance required. Most infuriating tend
    to be the 205 GTi's, with the engine size on the panel on the side.
    
    Chris

    Going back to the basenote, why not quote the dealer for the
    advertising space? If he then puts his plaque/sticker/why on the car,
    he is, in law, accepting your offer, and you have a contract. All you
    need to do is invoice him, and collect the dosh.
    
    If he decides to terminate the contract, it will, of course, be a
    condition of your quote that he gives due notice (a month seems
    reasonable) and removes the advert, and makes good the paintwork.
    
    Simple, really.
    
    Steve

Surely you pass 205s so quickly there isn't time to look and see how small
their engines are?

Scott ;-)

    I agree that the Japs tend to be the worst...seems to be a hangover
    from their dominance in the m/cycles market.
    
    Of special importance seems to be the need to specify the number
    of valves and all the go-faster goodies under the bonnet which make
    the cars unserviceable yourself. I bet the garage mechanics' hearts
    stop beating when they see some of them coming in for a service/tune.
    On the other hand, perhaps it's all a ploy to ensure you take the
    car to an "authorised service agent".
    
    How about the MG rubber stamp marks all across the previous series
    Metro doors and rear side panel?
    
    Even LADA are getting in on the act!
    
    Timbo

    My Lease car has no dealer markings whatsoever, no trademark on the
    number plate, no sticker in the back window and no stick-on badge on
    the bootlid.    I've only got a PHH licence holder!!
    ( To tell you the truth I've forgotten who supplied it!)
    
    As regards manufacturers model markings, we all know that some
    individuals treat their cars as extensions of their manhoods, and want
    everyone to know how big their .. car is! 
    
    :-) Huw.  

    Re a few back. 
    
    
    	Most 'quality' car dealers (ie: Jaguar, Rolls Royce, etc) don't put
    all the crap on the boot lid. However I have seen that Village Mercedes
    do put a smalll logo on the boot lid. It really gets up my nose all
    that crap on the boot lid. If I ever get a car with it on, they can
    take it off as quick as they put it on ,and repair any damage caused by
    it. I don't mine on the number plate or a small sticker in the rear
    window but the boot lid is right out of it.  My Bmw has got so many
    badges on it anybody elses would be lost.
    
    
    Garry

    What's even worse is:
    
    1) The Terry TURBO back window halfords stickers in red that block all
    rear vision.
    
    2) Some prat in a 950cc dodgy old motor who has been down the scrap
    heap and pulled of all turbo, i and other stickers and whacked them on
    the back, side , front etc of his/her 'motor'.
    
    3) Someone with a Ford L, who has also been down the scrappy and got
    the RS -Turbo badge and whacked it on his/her car. (Ford just used as
    an example)
    
    It makes me so mad...
    
    
    Mr Angry from Pearly

    I'm afraid most of those badges are off someone else's motor !

A car is a car. An object to transport people and goods from one place to 
another. Some do it faster, some cheaper, some more comfortably. Who cares what
badges it has on it! You don't see them when you're in the car anyway!


Ian

RE: 1164.8;

>> I don't want people to know its ONLY
>> a 316i and not a 325i (though we all know how to spot the difference
>> at a hundred yards).

Well only people who are interested in BMW's would know.

With the advent of these 'unmarked' BMW's and Merc's, I detect a little note
of smugness. A bit like BMW are saying that their cars are so special that it
is beneath themselves to play in this childish (2.0 i GLS DOHC Turbo stuff).

I think the only way to declare yourself above this is to say that you don't
care.

Mark.

P.S. Yes, I do look at the side panel for a Peugeot 205 GTi, as I overtake them.

    How many 750i Bmw's get debadged?????? I can't honestly say that I have
    seen a many non 316 318 or 320 Bmw's that have been debadged. The low
    end 3 series don't need the badges . Everyone knows what it is.
    
    
    Garry

    A couple of years ago there was a new fashion that consisted in
    collecting badges. The collectors were the kids of a school that
    I happen to know particularly well. Many cars that were parked near the
    place were debadged daily. The thing took such proportions that police
    had to be envolved. Some kids had some real good collections. I
    "contributed" with a MINI 1275 GT badge :-)). I would say that the
    most searched badges are the ALFA ones. There are plenty circulating
    without badges. The Japanese must have studied this because a lot
    of Japanese cars have the bagdes painted on the body. There are
    some really long ones like the Toyota "Corolla GTI 1.6 Twincam 16"
    (uf!)...
    
    Regards,
    
    RUI 

    Anyone seen those 'MC Coll' stickers on cars ?  Ugly looking cartoon
    character about 4" tall in garish colours - Ultimate in bad taste - I'd
    sue them if they stuck that permanently on any car of mine !
    
    Dave.
    

   I always thought that the best way of doing things with the badges was
to get a turbo version, then stick 1.1 badges on it, and watch the looks
on peoples faces as you leave them for dead !!!!!

   Alan
  ~~~~~~

    I wanted to borrow my stepmother's 'Golf' badge for my GTi when I
    brought it, but i'm afraid my ego argued with me on that one!
    
    Does anyone notice that the GTi, SRi, XR, GTE sticker actually attracts
    cars behind you to the back of your car?  What effect to the shiny dealer's
    adverts have?
    
    Rob.

Whilst sat in traffic on the J11 roundabout before coming into DECpark, I
noticed a Citroen with a small shiny badge that said "16V".  On the driver's
dashboard.  Following earlier arguments for this note, does the driver check
the rating of the car in front, glance at the dash to check his/her own and
if his/hers is better, then overtake?

Dave

    My BMW motorcycle doesn't have all this i or turbo crap on it, it just
    has K100LT. It could have had K100 1.0i LT ABS. It don't go no faster,
    dosn't change its appearance . It goes like stink without all that ,
    I'm happy that just have model number on it.

    Re .20
    
    On BMW drivers (for example) being smug.
    
    Perhaps this could be true for some, but my personal reason for
    having no badges, is purely because I really don't see why a car
    should be labelled as a particular model.  The shape alone denotes
    that it is a 3 Series, the person driving behind me has no need
    for information that it is a 316i and not a 318i or a 320i for that
    matter.  As you say, only people who are interested in BMWs would
    know the differences between the models in the Series.
                               
    For example, think of all those cars that have a little "Automatic"
    badge on them.  Totally unnecessary in my opinion.
    
    Someone commented earlier that when you come up behind someone with
    a view to overtaking them, its good to know what you're dealing
    with in front - is it a 1.6 or a 2.0i, for example - I don't believe
    this is important at all.   If you plan to overtake someone, regardless
    of engine size, you should plan your maneouvre carefully and only
    implement it if you are "confident" of overtaking successfully and
    most importantly, safely.
    
    
    

    Unless, of course, the personal you are overtaking perceives it as a
    personal slight, and accelerates to prevent the overtaking manoevre.
    
    Steve

    re -1
      
    exactly. On many occasions I have had the vehicle in front accelerate,
    just because I was starting to overtake. Looking at the badge is
    simply a further safety device to ensure that you don't get left
    facing a head on collision.
    
    Chris

    The badge that IS useful on tha back of a car is the one that never
    seems to be there....
    
    The ABS badge. 
    
    But by the time you can read it, it is normally too late - he can 
    stop a lot quicker than you can!!

    
    not on a dry road he can't....

RE: .32

Or he brakes a lot later than most people, because of supreme confidence.

Why bother with ABS and Catalyst!

	Actually, ABS can't stop you faster in any conditions... but
	you can steer the car while you're slowing down which you
	can't when you've locked normal brakes up...

	Jonathan (who has ABS and hates it)

    

    .last (not quite true and a rathole)
    
    In the wet a car with ABS will stop faster than a car without, assuming
    the cars are braking hard enough to lock the wheels.    

    However, ABS equipped cars will take longer to stop in both dry
    conditions and snow.

    

    > In the wet a car with ABS will stop faster 
    
    Do you mean 'stop sooner'? :-) :-)
    
    Jeff.
    

    I've got abs on a motorcycle. I've tested it at Bmw's expense on thier
    machine in controlled conditions. You'd have a job to convince me that
    it dosn't work better than ordinary brakes.  Ask anyone who's rode a
    motorcycle a) what would happen if you lock both wheels up on a wet
    greasy road at 40 mph and  b) what would be the braking distance under
    those conditions. I can say without fear, that the answer to a) will
    determine the answer of b)  and that whatever the answer is it will not
    favour the bike without abs. ABS does stop quicker, safer and in a
    straight line under total control. I can't imagine that a car works any
    different , save for the fact the abs does not work on snow (so I'm
    told)
    
    Garry

    
    ...a car doesn't fall flat on it's side when you loose traction...
    
    I'd say that ABS would be of more use on a motorcycle than on a car for
    just this reason !

why do you think that a car with ABS has a greater stopping distance than 
a car without ABS ?


...art

    I was always under the impression that ABS helped 'dry'  braking.
    
    This is because maximum braking efficiency is at the point where the
    wheel is a hair's breadth away from locking. But your average right
    foot isnt sensitive enough to get to this position. So the nearest you
    can get to maximum efficiency is to lock all 4 wheels and screech the
    tyres. (Dont do this when its wet!)
    
    so electronic ABS can get the wheels/brakes to maximum efficiency 20
    times a second.
    
    This is what a police instructor once told me.
    
    Huw.

    
    Because the coefficients of sliding and rolling friction are very
    similar for rubber on dry tarmac. So, using ABS your average braking
    effort will be less and your stopping distance a very small bit
    longer. In practice, with a decent ABS system, the difference is
    theoretical.
    
    On a wet road, an ABS equipped car will stop sooner in an emergency.
    
    A quote I liked was 'The ABS gets confused when you're going
    backwards', from somebody I know who had just spun a 911 Carrera 2.
    (on purpose, off the road).
    
    Bill.

    I believe the last two have nearly got it.
    
    Mansell, Senna, Prost or whoever your favourite is, is probably capable
    of beating ABS because of their highly developed driving skills in
    marginal situations, and can cadence brake effectively, thus acheiving
    a very high degree of braking efficiency. Most of the rest of us
    mortals only have to do such braking infrequently. I have had cars with
    ABS for the last four years, and I can only remember the ABS cutting in
    for real four times. Two of them were in situations where steerage and
    braking were both required. In none of these instances were stopping
    distances a problem.
    
    I believe, FWIW, that despite 23 years of driving (for what THAT is
    worth!) my skill level is probably not adequate to beat ABS, because I
    simply do not have cause to practise cadence braking to that extent.
    
    I would not wish to be without ABS, for my neck's sake.
    
    Steve

>        Because the coefficients of sliding and rolling friction are very
>    similar for rubber on dry tarmac. So, using ABS your average braking
 
    The explanation does explain the rash statements that "ABS causes
    longer stopping distances", I question the validity.  What proof
    is there ?  In my experience, a bicycle will stop sooner if the
    the back wheel is not locked.  Also car's going round bends will
    move more laterally if the wheel is sliding i.e. cars skid off
    the road round bends.
    
    Trev

    
    re .37
    
    Yes! apologies - "faster" should read "sooner" :-)
    
    This is all covered in another note somewhere. There were certainly
    some AA tests done and I think others were quoted...

    

    ADAC ?
    
    
    I haven't seen any cars with that on the boot ?
    
    
    Do they sell LADA's ??