Conference terri::cars_uk

    Almost - they went up (ESSO at 2.04 pounds). Are you surprised?
    
    Mike

    
    
    I believe the MMC report (wether preliminary or final) was published
    some weeks ago.
    
    They agreed that there was no evidence of the oil companies operating 
    a cartel. Maybe its the retailers like Heron who fix the prices?
    
    In the meantime the prices only go up and the oil price fluctuates
    wildly.
    
    

    The OPEC meeting in Gen�ve has agreed a new price of $20 per barrel
    (Iraq wanted something nearer $25).
    
    Perhaps diesel could even reach the magical(?) �2.00/gall. barrier!
    
    Martin.

    And what are they now ?
    
    Such a topical subject in the light of the Kuwait invasion.......
    September Brent crude trading at over $26 this morning...
    Watch Out all drivers!
    
    timbo

    The price went up by over a dollar a barrel in the half hour between
    two business slots on BBC Breakfast News this morning.  Should be about
    $50 by this evening at that rate ...
    
    My solution: don't boycott Iraqi oil - just don't pay them.
    
    Jeff.
    
    

    Just heard on the radio that a number of petrol companies are
    increasing the price of petrol from midnight tonight by up to 10p per
    gallon.
    
    Martin.

>>    My solution: don't boycott Iraqi oil - just don't pay them.

I was thinking that. Why not?

Mark.

    Re. 7.
    
    Why, when we have, acccording to 'informed sources', three months stock
    of petrol in the U.K., do prices have to go up NOW ??. Surely the
    petrol being bought now at the higher price will be sold after the
    current batch that is currently in store so in theory the price should 
    go up in three months time ?.
    
    Are the oil companies simply being greedy ??, again !!.
    
    Rich
    

    
    Prices have gone up now to enable the oil companies to replenish
    stocks.  As the cost of replenishment has increased, they need to raise
    additional funds (So they say).
    
    Nev.

But I bet when the price of crude comes down they won't put the price at the
pump down as quickly!  Then they'll probably say they've got three months
expensive oil to sell off first...

Scott

    I used to work for BP so I have some idea how the price of petrol is
    made up. Tax is the biggest part of the price and cost ,transportation
    ,refining,marketing come way behind in 2nd place. The profit margin is
    , some time ago, is fairly small. Don't get me wrong I'm not sticking
    up for this price rise, this price rise in my view is just plain money
    grabbing. Something they don't own up to is, when a field like forties
    starts full production they pay full Petroleum revenue tax, until then
    they get away with paying a very much reduced rate of tax. They don't
    complain about that or when there's spare oil about, they go and buy it 
    cheap on the Rotterdam spot market and still sell it as if they had
    bought it from somewhere like saudi.
    
    What about the oil thats in bunkers at refineries or oil that is in
    transit in a tanker , thats all bought, maybe not paid for , but the 
    price has been aggreed. Normally oil ,avaiation fuel etc are paid for
    something like 30 days after delivery.
    
    
    The whole thing stinks!!!!!! The problem is that you and me are
    powerless do anything about it short of stop buying the real money
    grabbers petrol. I don't buy esso petrol normally and I sure as hell
    won't now...
    
    Garry

    
    Maybe we should start a list of all garages that maintain prices below 
    �1
    
    If everyone in digital then only frequented those garages...it could
    start to hurt the more expensive ones :-)

    �1 per Gallon :-) or Litre :-( ?
    
    Martin.

    
    silly....
    
    seems I was beaten to it....new topic already started :-)

    Baring in mind OPEC have agreed to make up for the lost production
    from Kuwait & Iraq,prices should not be changing at all. Considering
    we pay around about 1.50 in tax for each gallon we buy, perhaps
    we should write to our MP's & demand (re beg) that they reduce the
    tax!  Just a thought.

In case you're interested in a continental comparison, everywhere's gone up.

Switzerland is now about �2.00 for 4 star and �1.85 for lead free. This is a 
rise of about 12-14 pence/gallon.

    
    On the radio this morning they were discussing petrol prices is the
    USA, and saying that the President has been dropping hints about doing
    something to the oil companies because of what is seen as taking
    excessive profits - this has resulted in BP dropping it's price by a
    few cents (because crude price is dropping again, so they said) and
    some other companies putting a price freeze on for a week. The oil
    companies have become the American Public's 'local bad guys'. 

    On the telly recently, senior economist laying large part of the
    blame for the current crisis on USA. ie because the USA public pay
    such a low price for "gas", consumption is still far too high. He
    then also said that all countries were paying too low a price
    considering its all going to run out soon.
    
    What is needed is to keep prices high so that demand decreases or
    alternatives become economic. Then we wont care what tinpot dictators
    do in the sand.
    
    Sounds good to me.
    
    Rich.(R5GTT to shank's pony soon)

re last few

Oil price increases are all the more noticeable here in the US becuase of the
far lower level of taxation on gasoline. 

Two weeks ago my local petrol station was selling the cheapest grade of 
unleaded at $1.05 a US gallon. A few days later, that had increased to 
$1.09 a gallon (an increase in Mass. gas tax caused this). It's now at 
$1.25. That's almost a 20% rise (though some of that was caused by an 
ill-timed tax increase) in two weeks.

If British petrol prices were to jump up 20% (say to �2.35 a gallon) there
would probably be uproar there too.

That's why the US oil companies are seen as 'bad guys' -- every penny a 
gallon increase is far more noticeable here.

John

    Avgas at Southampton goes up by 2p/lt from midnight
    Paul

    On Jersey the pricec of 4* is 97p a gallon and Derv is around 60-70p
    a gallon !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    And income tax is 20%
    
    Grant

    With all the petrol price increases and cuts all atributed to this
    nonsense in the gulf it occured to me today , how is the price of
    Diesel effected in relation to petrol. I must confess I never look at
    the price of diesel , mainly because I never use the stuff. Has the
    price of diesel gone up in simular leaps and bounds. You always hear
    that the petrol price has gone up but never a mention of diesel.
    
    Now I may have grabbed the wrong end of the stick here but, if the 
    price of crude is going up in leaps and bounds , unless you get 3
    buckets of diesel to 1 bucket of petrol per barrel, me thinks the price
    should go up the same amount. Does it???????? 
    
    
    I heard on the radio some bod from shell or someone saying that the
    price on the rotterdam spot market had gone up. Now my understanding of
    what happens in rotterdam is that the oil giants sell off surplus
    stocks there,  and people like Heron and non oil companies can buy the
    stuff and sell it. If that wern't the case where does the oil and
    petrol come from. In my dealings with oil sale and purchase , most of
    the stuff is bought direct from Kuwait,Saudi, Oman and so on then
    shipped to which ever refinery it was bound for. That stuff got paid
    for on presentation of the bills of lading and if my memory serves me
    correct payment would be 30 days after that.
    
    
    Now a quick puzzle. If I'm paying for a shipment of oil today, ie: bang
    on 30 days after loading, do I pay the price that crude is selling at
    today or do I pay the price that was aggreed at the time sale. Most
    smart cookies would pay an aggreed price and not some floating price.
    So the final bit , how long has this gulf buissness going on??? How 
    long has the price of oil been going up???? Would the oil I paid for
    today have been bought during this period?????
    
    
    WHo's conning who?????
    
    
    
    Garry
    
    
    
    

    The oil companies argument is "Yes the current oil was bought before
    the prices went up, BUT we have to buy now at the high price, so to 
    cover our costs we must charge higher prices for the existing stuff".
    
    This is ok in principal PROVIDED that when the price drops they drop
    the price on the expensive oil they bought. There have been drops in 
    prices recently, but never as much as the increase.
    
    Mark

    
    Onto my soap-box!
    
    I understand that some countries are putting limitations on the oil
    companies....whilest the Gulf crisis is upon us.
    1. How is it that the French and Spanish Governments (?)put a max. price
    on petrol at the pumps and the UK Gov't say that they "don't want to
    introduce draconian measures"?
    I believe it just goes to show our lot are cap in hand with the large 
    multinationals and big business...and are soft when it comes to dealing
    with monopolistic supply.
    2. Of course, the large oil companies will cover-up their profits windfall
    before they declare their profits every 6 months.
    3. I've never seen so many oil tankers on the roads.
    4. Even if the Gulf crisis comes to nothing, the oil companies will not
    reduce their prices to fair levels...they'll explain it away with some
    garbage about increased distribution/labour costs.
    5. It's a good way of getting us all used to a #2 per gallon price.
    
    Ouch!

    
    I'm amazed at the price of petrol in Jersey. I seem to remember petrol
    being dear when I went there 7 years ago.
    
    Still it wouldn't suprise me if it was dear then. It's all very well
    to get upset about the cost of petrol, but don't forget that petrol
    would be below �1 per gallon if it didn't have any special tax applied
    to it.
    
    Successive governments, that's who're REALLY conning us!
    
    Mark

	Well according to the Sunday Times ( so it's got a far chance of being
	half right ) the Office Of Far Trading will be investigating the
	price hikes of petrol currently being done by the oil company cartel.
	Sorry, I musn't use that word, cartel, as they officially aren't one.

	The oil companies say they welcome it, as it will "clear the air", and
	let consumers they aren't the baddies everyone thinks they are.

	Their main argument is that they have an obligation to hold, "x" days,
	or "x" million gallons of the stuff in reserve BY LAW . So even though	
	the stuff sold at the forecourts might have bought at the "pre-crises"
	price, they still have to keep their reserve stocks up to the legal 
	limit. They then go on to say that in all probability the expensive
	stuff will be sold at more or less the "normal" price, so things should
	even themselves out

	Well that was their argument, perhaps the OFT can shed a more official
	light on the whole matter.

	Gordon ( paying FL 1.87 for a litre of Euro 95 )
	

    An old friend of mine used to work for Mobil, up in the city. I
    cant remember exactly how he said that petrol prices were calculated,
    but I can assure you that it is MUCH MORE COMPLICATED than you would
    believe. Its not a simple matter of buying some crude from country
    A, putting it on a ship to country B, then refining it. 
    
    Its more like strike a deal with country A to buy some at x$, try
    and then sell this deal to anyone for +x$, if not or the prices
    change, fill the refinery or sell at Roterdam, make another deal
    to sell the refined petrol, or in the least profitable case put
    it into your petrol station network.
                         
    ie. Petrol companies try to make money from every stage AND via
    ANY method.
    
    Rich.  

    The fact that law dictates they keep so much petrol in storage seems a
    bit cop out to me. Do they really expect us beleive that they refine
    it on a when required basis. Even if they didn't keep the supply they 
    are required to keep surely they would have gallons of the stuff in
    store anyway. As for the office of fair trading investigating them,
    what are they going to find??? I suggest exactly what the oil companies
    want them to find and nothing else. Figures say exactly what they want
    them to say. They would be far better stamping on them now and then let
    the oil companies prove them wrong. That way at least they would tell
    the truth. If oil was such a looser ,why do the oil companies always
    show profit ,and a healthy one at that.
    
    The only thing I will say in thier favour is that if the tax on petrol
    were not so bloody steep the price would not be anywhere near the price
    it was before the gulf excuse.
    
    Garry
    

	HHi
  Today the TV said that the petrol company will decrease the price of oil.
It's a good thing. The first company doing that is SHELL, but the others will
do the same. To avoid an important increase of the prices, the french government
freezed the prices two weeks ago, and the petrol company could not over passed 
the maximum fixed by the government. Now the company decide not to go to the 
upper limit of the oil price.

  Good thing !


Oil prices in FRANCE:

Before Gulf problem :     5,05 Fr/liter
Three days ago :	  5,88 Fr/liter     --- A price for each day ---
Two days ago :            5,97 Fr/liter
Yesterday :               6,03 Fr/liter
Today :	                  5,90 Fr/liter 

  Philippe

    Why do we have to have x-days supply stored (in tanks?) when we have
    years supply underground?

    Martin.

    Why is it that Sainsbury's can sell petrol 2.2p per litre cheaper
    than the so called oil companies. Surley those in the business can
    produce it cheaper and sell it cheaper?????? 
    
    Maybe its because sainsbury's buy it throught the Rotterdam spot market
    and therefore only have the transportation costs.
    
    Its a funny old game.
    
    
    

	The 'markets' for oil are in the crude not refined variety.
	The big supermarkets just buy from whatever petrol company
	is selling cheapest and have smaller margins. They see it
	as a way to attract people to their stores.

	-John

I was speaking to one of the Independent's financial writers at the weekend.
He's been covering the petrol price increases, and when I asked him if the
price increases were necesary or profiteering, he said:
"To use the technical jargon, they're coining it in..."  The big oil companies
are putting the price up solely to increase their profits; the Gulf dispute
just provides them with a convenient excuse.

The Government won't regulate the price (and I think they ought to) because in
the current economic situation in Britain, anything which reduces people's
spending power will curb inflation (or so they would have us believe).  Interest
rates alone aren't working, so I think the Government are probably quite
pleased with the (temporary?) price increase.

Scott

    Heard on the 2pm news - Esso are putting up their prices at midnight
    tonight by 8.2pence, even though the barrel cost is half a dollar less
    today than on Monday this week!
    
    They are absoulute b@st@*ds!

	Esso putting their prices up ! Prices, over here, went down today by
	a few cents litre.


	Gordon

    I know what the man from the idependant said is ture, you try and get
    the oil companies to own up to it.
    
    I think the fact that supermarkets can sell at a smaller profit margin
    says it all.
    
    
    
    Garry
    	

    Today - unleaded 1.85 a gallon in any Tesco garage, 4 star about
    1.96/97
    
    And long queues !!
    
    Rich
    

	Yesterday, unleaded �2.13 per gallon at BP Heathrow.
	Crooks. No queues.

	Jonathan.

    It seems that the big players are still keeping prices higher, Mobil 
    have dropped the price 2p per litre, but they were charging more
    anyway.
    
    Garry

    Ye complain about �2 a gallon. Over here in Galway, it's about IR�3.20.
    
    Ye have it good!
    
    Billy
    

    
    Petrol costs about $1.50 a litre just about 2 weeks ago. The price has
    dropped to $1.20 a litre. 60% of that goes to the Govt as tax. The way
    to beat that is to drive about 60 km into Malaysia. They are selling it
    at 70cts per litre. 
    
    The catch is, Govt made a ruling that all Singapore registered cars
    going to Malaysia must have 1/2 a tank of petrol. The excuse is to
    control the car usage but the obvious reason is to prevent too much
    revenue from getting out of the country.
    
    

    Tescos in Newbury last night...
    
    4 star - �1.89 a gallon
    Unleaded - �1.76 a gallon
    
    Diesel - a bit cheaper than 4 star but I didn't catch the price
             properly.
    
    

 digital                   NEWS HEADLINES                   LIVE WIRE
                                                    


E.C. CARBON TAX PROPOSED

PROPOSALS to impose a new duty on fuel after the Gulf crisis - equivalent to
around 20p on a gallon of petrol - are advocated in Brussels as part of an E.C.
strategy to combat global warming and encourage energy conservation. The E.C.
minister for the environment, Carlo Ripa di Meana, said that the revenue
produced would fund research on energy efficiency, the development of renewable
energy sources and 'clean' energy technology, and environment-friendly modes of
transport.

Independent. London. 20 December 1990


More news follows...


  

RE: -.1 Switzerland is going to do exactly the same - I think that the figure
quoted was higher than this (18 centimes/litre?? = 32p/gallon).

I'm in favour - provided that the money is spent properly on what it was
intended for, and not syphoned off somewhere else - which is what can happen.

Steve

    How on earth can you be in favour of paying more for a gallon of
    petrol ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
    
    I hate to sound selfish, but not having a sensible alternative,
    I HAVE to use a car to work and any increase on petrl seriously
    affects my monthly outgoings on transport.
    
    Isn't there enough tax on petrol as it is ? In the states they still
    pay less than a dollar for a gallon. 
    
    - Roy (who is very pleased he's only paying 1.76 a gallon at present)

    I have to agree with the previous reply. I use large amounts of petrol
    per month , something like 2.5k miles per month.  If 20p of the masif
    amount of the 1 pound odd the sting you for per gallon were converted
    to help fight against global warming that would be better. It really
    gets up my nose when the poor motorist is stung yet again. Figures have
    proved that cars fumes only account for 5% of the harmfull gases , why
    don't they get to the root of the cause and sort out industry who
    really get away scott free .
    
    
    
    	Garry
    
    
    

    
    I totally agree with the last two notes.
    
    The motorists subsidises too many other projects already, without
    having to bear further pressure on sorting out a problem which is
    only in a small way their problem.
    
    Just look at all the current 'Don't drink and drive' advertising.
    If we did NEITHER the NHS and Social Services would cease to exist!
    
    Another 20p on EACH and EVERY gallon of petrol would do wonders for
    inflation too!
    
    Mark
    

    
    20p++ per gallon would bring in ZILLIONS of pounds of revenue, far more
    than that required for investigating global warming (despite the fact
    that the Earth is actually getting colder).
    
    Now if that money was invested into improving the road network so that
    we spend less time stuck in jams - pumping pollution into the air for
    hours and hours, wasting valuable time that could be used elsewhere -
    then maybe i would approve!
    
    If the 20ppg was to replace road tax, then again i would approve, but
    just to let airy-fairy pseudo-scientists play with their computer models
    of doom - time to buy a milk float!
    
    mb
    
    p.s.
    
    Why not put the tax on DIESEL and sting the lorries as well?

    
    
    Re last 3,
    
    I dont see too much of a problem increasing petrol by 20p a gal, ok,
    it may be unfortunate for some, but maybe it will encourage a large
    majority of people to use the bus, train, bike or even walk !, instead 
    using the car. I occasionaly stay in London and use the car but dont
    need to, the tube or bus/taxi would suffice, maybe a financial penalty
    is what is needed. ( I would personnaly prefer cars banned from city
    centres. ) 
    
    If it is only going to be the petrol price increased then maybe they
    want people to switch to diesel. Also 20 per Gal wont increase
    inflation too much, firstly it will be a one off increase and cause a
    minor blip upwards, secondly , Parliment will proberbly not count it
    towards inflation because its a "green tax" and "Does not effect the
    underlaying rate of inflation" ( Now where have i heard that before ?
    ), Third, if its only petrol not diesel, than cost of
    production/transport wont be effected to too large a degree. 
    
�    than that required for investigating global warming (despite the fact
�    that the Earth is actually getting colder).
    
    So what do you know the sceintists dont ? 
    
    There really is far too many cars around , especially in some city's,
    I read in "Times/Telegraph" someone was proposing using trams in
    certain ares of London and thereby reducing the access to some areas of
    London by cars, eq Oxford st etc, great idea.
    
    Garry
    

    
    The arguments around global warming are very debatable (and easy to
    tear holes in), so I won't dispute that area, but I'd suggest that if
    you drive a car in London that you deserve an extra 2 pounds per gallon
    put on your petrol! For those people (and businesses) for whom public
    transport is a joke (it would at least DOUBLE my journey times and I
    have a relatively simple journey), an extra 20p in Government funding
    would be littler short of criminal!
    
    If, as was mentioned, some of the current road fund and petrol duty was
    ploughed into public transport then it would be a considerably more
    attractive solution, but what are those people for whom no public
    transport exists supposed to do? Just put up with the price hikes as
    usual, I suppose.
    
    Mark
    
    PS From your title I presume you were simply 'playing the straightman'.

    I agree with the sentiments shown in a few of the previous replies.
    
    City areas (thinking particularly of London) are VERY overcrowded.
    When I worked in London, I used BR/LRT to get to work, because it was
    easier.  The cost difference was not considered.  This also had the
    advantage (for me) of allowing me to get drunk, then make my way home.
    This was often inconvenient as regard timetables etc, but far, far
    better than considering driving or taxi'ing home...
    
    If more of the people who lived in and around the city used the
    Public Transport network, it would alleviate _some_ of the problems
    of traffic congestion.  Of course, there is much more to this argument,
    beginning with the woefully inadequate state of Public Transport.
    
    I think that of the money taken as tax on petrol/diesel/road tax/whatever,
    it would be more than reasonable to spend some of this on the Public
    Transport system.  I think it is accepted that this is the only *real*
    solution to _some_ of the traffic problems we have.
    
    As far as the 'green' issue is concerned, I would not mind _too much_
    if I was charged an extra 20p per gallon IF this extra were used for
    *worthwhile* efforts against the 'environmental issue of the week'.
    
    It does P me off somewhat that most of the tax charged from the use of
    vehicles does not go toward improving the 'drivers lot', or even toward
    correcting some of the 'evils' that drivers contribue towards.
    
    As has been commented on, car drivers are only a percentage of the
    problem of 'global warming' (if that is truly occurring).  The amount
    of effort directed against cars/fuel consumption is TOTALLY out of
    order when compared with the potential gains to be had from changes.
    
    If the Elec. Industry had not been privatised, then maybe the Govt.
    could have put some money into cutting down some of the effect that
    burning fossil fuels for power would have (reminder :- electric
    vehicles are not the 'solution' that some peoply believe, the power
    to recharge these vehicles is not 'green').
    
    
    Well, that's enough of my 'soap box spiel' on that subject, apart
    from a concise description of my 'point of view'...
    
    	As this is a 'free country', I would like to be able to indulge
    	myself in activities that I enjoy.  If these activities are proved
    	to harm others, I feel that it is acceptable if I am penalised in
    	some way - by increasing the cost of my anti-social activity.
    	I also feel that to be 'just', any other person who commits the
    	same sort of 'crime' against humanity is also penalised likewise.
    	If it happens that this 'other person' is a company which would
    	have to 'pass on' the cost, then I would also not mind if I were
    	then charged extra as a result of buying the product of this company.
    
    J.R. (also, consider smoking [cigarettes] as that is harmful to others,
          is taxed heavily, is not 'liked' by many others, but is still
          permitted almost world-wide as an 'anti-social behaviour')

    I agree that anyone who takes a car into London deserved �20 per
    gallon!. It's much simpler to avail oneself on the abundant public
    transport. 
    
    However that doesn't apply one you get out into the sticks of even
    Reading. To get from DECpark to Thatcham where I live takes about half
    an hour by car. To get from DECpark into reading railway or bus station
    by bus would take just as long, plus the wait for the train, plus the
    journey time by train, plus it's cost me more than the fuel I'd have
    used in the car. 
    
    In a large metropolitan city, public transport is viable, elsewhere
    it's a joke!.
    
    
    Richard

As of last week the average price of a gallon of regular unleaded self serve was
somewhere around $1.37.  Different states have different taxes and here in 
Georgia we have some of the lowest.  We're paying around $1.19/gal.

The Feds also upped the federal tax by $0.05/gal to help reduce the federal
deficit.  I think it's going up another 5� next year as well.

Dave

    ref 1150.49
    Martin,
    
    
    >>> Why not put the tax on DIESEL and sting the lorries as well?
      
    1) Diesel cars are getting more popular in the UK. 
    2) Putting extra tax on diesel would cause consumer goods to cost 
    more and aid inflation further.
    
    ref various,
    
    As regards polution DIESEL fuel was "green" before green issues
    were even thought of!!!
    
    Cheers....Norm Pettet
    

    re: .55

    Try not to confuse green issues and polution. DIESEL, or more
    correctly, badly tuned diesel engines, do polute the environment.
    Admitedly, they don't produce the amount of CO that a petrol engine
    does, so don't affect the ozone layer as much. They just produce
    carcinogenic(sp) substances instead ...

  Mark

    
    Re: <diesel is safe>.REPLIES
    
    The 20p per gallon was to combat GLOBAL WARMING, not pollution. As far
    as i know, diesel produces CO2, the gas alleged to cause this. I would
    expect that DIESEL accounts for a large proportion of transport related
    burnt hydrocarbons - so why let it avoid the tax?
    
    Re: .50
    
    
>�    than that required for investigating global warming (despite the fact
>�    that the Earth is actually getting colder).
>    
>    So what do you know the sceintists dont ? 
 
    Without rat-holing too much, satellite data shows that the Earth is
    actually getting colder (by only a fraction of a degree), so it seems
    rather silly to implement a 10% premium on fuel to investigate a
    problem that may not actually exist.   
    
    Re: .55
    
>    2) Putting extra tax on diesel would cause consumer goods to cost 
>    more and aid inflation further.
    
    Putting extra tax on diesel may encourage companies to use the
    railways, but thats another topic.
    
    Re: <the original 20p>.REPLIES
    
    	Does anyone have any figures as to how much petrol is consumed per
    day in the EC? The money that 20ppg would bring in must be enormous!
    
    mb

    
    
    Well, I am surprised at the replies, perhaps its the christmas spirit. :-)
    
    A quick look at the last replies gives a 3/5 vote on the increase being
    good thing. 
    
    I agree public transport needs improving and co-ordinating much better
    than it is at present. However just one or two points from the last
    replies spring to mind.
    
    1, Why not increase petrol substantialy , say �1 a gal more, the
    thought behind this being, a) stop people using their cars unnecessarily 
    b) encourage Jensen interceptor owners ( 8 mpg ) to buy more economical
    cars, say Citroen bx turbo diesel's :-), c) If you want to drive your
    ferarri for fun, then by all means, just subsidise other peoples cheaper
    public transport.
    
    2, re some notes back, those people who drive long distances, do you do
    it specifically for your job, if so why doesn't DEC pay ?, if not then
    presumeably you do it out of choice, better standard of living where
    you are, nicer house for less money then you would pay nearer to work,
    if so then you do have a choice. I dont mean to "pick" on you as an
    individual, just as an example, also emptier roads would help you if
    you chose to continue to travel long distances to work by car.
    
    re Mark, Yes to a certain extent, the straight man , but , something
    has to be done about the number of cars around, Have you ever tried to
    park in Schwabing ?
    
    Garry. 
    
    
    

    Going off the track slightly , when I worked for a major oil company
    some time back. The cost of a gallon of 4* was around �1.40 to �1.50
    the breakdown of that amount was very roughly.
    
    	� 1    T A X 
    
    
    	50 Pence  to the oil company.
    
    	That 50p was split across the cost of drilling for it ,
        transporting , advertising, marketing etc. Of that 50 P  around 5p 
    	was profit. 
    
    	It really  make me mad when people say I don't mind paying more or
    	witter on about green issues. At �1 a gallon , how many million 
    	do they get a month???? How much of that is put back into the road
    	network????? If they were that serious about green issues then I'm 
    	sure that the mp's could pay for lunch or something rather that 
    	sponge off the country.
    
    
    
    	Garry

    
    >> Have you ever tried to park in Schwabing ?
    
    Well, funnily enough, I have, and had no problem at all! However, I'm
    prepared to believe that it can be bad at times.
    
    Suggesting that everybody moves into towns to be near their work is 
    a rather backward thinking idea though. You'd be hard pressed to find
    many people who would support such a plan (workers, managers or
    sociologists). It also rather naive to suggest that by increasing
    tax on petrol that public transport would quickly become vastly
    improved (certainly in the UK, where the current government would decry
    supporting public transport as 'Governmental interference). All a large
    increase in tax on petrol would achieve would be to push up costs and
    wage demands.
    
    The REAL answer is to make it less neccesary for people to have to
    travel at all. More home working would reduce the number of cars on 
    the road at any one time (and lets be honest, cars locked in the garage
    do no harm to the environment) and also reduce the effective working
    hours of millions of people. The trouble is that most employers assume
    that their staff can't be trusted to work without big brother watching
    them and there are perceived problems with people working alone in
    social terms. This kind of thing could be implemented by employers
    (hence circumventing governments and bypassing the inflationary tax
     increases).
    
    Simple isn't it! :^)
    
    Mark

    
�    sociologists). It also rather naive to suggest that by increasing
�    tax on petrol that public transport would quickly become vastly    
    
     I didn't for one minute suggest it would did I ?
    
    
     Since you have been here, (Munich) you must know that the public transport
    system is MUCH better than the UK's and Subsidised heavily, also the
    "green" lobby is much more powerfull ( I dont just mean global warming)
    there has been discusions of putting the Mittlerring completely
    underground, and turning the top into a park, this will cost millions
    but benift nearly everyone. The UK (Govt) really should get its act
    together and start doing something positive for a change, instead of
    sitting on the fence, ie your remark about govt intervention in Public
    transport. 
    
    Also your suggestion of home working has been suggested before, ( Easily 
    adopted by a company like DEC ) on the whole it could be very good, might 
    be a bit boring if you never meet anyone else though, Funnily enough in 
    Germany its not the Companies who wont let people work from home. 
    
    Garry 
    
    re Simple isn't it! :^)
    
    It cant be or Maggie would have fixed it  :-)
    

    
    >> It cant be or Maggie would have fixed it  :-)
    
    She didn't fix anything else, so why this? :^)
    
    Anyway, you may not have actually said that increasing tax would
    improve the public transport system, but it would need to do so to
    be a beneficial tax, or it would simply have the negative effects
    I mentioned and no positive effect (except allowing MPs another 25% 
    pay increase, voted by themselves of course!).
    
    I agree entirely about Munich's public transport system and also that
    the British government needs to take a serious look at providing
    subsidised services, but it won't happen under the remnants of the
    Thatcher regime (regardless of your political leanings it must be
    admitted that the Tories under Mrs T built their reputation on reducing
    Governemnt support in the public sector to the bone). Maybe after the next 
    election, but I'm not hopeful. 
    Interestingly, though, despite its excellent public transport system, 
    Munich still suffers from severe traffic congestion.
    
    Home working would be boring if you never met other people, but if
    all office workers only worked in the office 2 days a week you would 
    reduce the number of cars on the road dramatically.
    
    Mark

    
    As has been said before - public transport will only be used if it is
    seen to be the 'best' option for the traveller - in terms of
    frequency/cost/advantages/disadvantages. When we lived in Munich we
    used our car to get to work - since we worked about half hours drive
    outside of the city, but trips within the city we always used
    trams/u-bahn/s-bahn - because it was more convienient. No problems
    parking, drink as much as you like :-), so many routes/options you
    could get near where you wanted to go, inexpensive....
    BUT it is (I believe) subsidised, and also very well used. 

    
    
�    Interestingly, though, despite its excellent public transport system, 
�    Munich still suffers from severe traffic congestion.
    
    Indeed it does, and although its not a green issue, ( I'm putting my
    sandels away on this one ) anyone who has seen/been in Munich knows
    that they park almost anywhere, including double parking on pavements
    and around street corners, and for disabled people in wheel chairs or
    for blind people it must be horrendous, I'm neither ( thank god ) and 
    proberbly sound like a "bleeding heart" but it cant be very nice for them. 
                                                           
    Well at least it passed the morning waiting for my plane !!, 
    
    Merry christmas everyone, I'm off to pick up my pressie a Z1, a really
    nice BMW. 
    
    only trouble is its battery powered and only 9 inches long, but then arn't
    all the best things in life. :-) 
    

        
    The EEC idea of putting up the price of petrol was to fund further
    research into Global Warming. 
    
    I might be persuaded to agree that the 20p a gallon could be well
    spent on improving public transport, but this was not the EEC wish.
    I certainly don't want the 20p a gallon investigating a problem that
    the only hard evidence available suggests that problem is a figment
    of the over-active minds of some scientists.
    
    It's worth remembering that Steve Schneider, who has been one of
    the noisiest and active proponents of the Global Warming theory,
    was, 14 years ago making similar dramatic statements about the
    return of the ice age.

    

    Current prices at the Mobil garage, Viables...

    Unleaded - 39.9
    4 star   - 42.9
    Diesel   - 43.5

    It's interesting that diesel is now more expensive than 4 star.

re .67;

diesel should come down soon, when the bad weather season is over.

A large proportion of diesel is used as heating oil, and apparantly if the
U.S. has bad weather, the price goes up.

Also, there is a chance the chancellor will start to bring taxes in line
(harmonisation?) with Europe, where diesel is much cheaper, so watch
out at the next budget.

But it is annoying, just at the moment!!

Peter

    Does someone out there know how much 4-star petrol cost yesterday
    (2-April) at BP garages?  I'm trying to keep track of my fuel
    consumption, but forgot to write down the number of litres I bought
    yesterday.  Since I know how much it cost, all I need is the price per
    litre.
    
    Of course, if anyone knows the price today, I assume it won't have
    changed much!  (Perhaps that's not a good assumption to make though...)
    
    Thanks.
    
    Mat.
    *:o)
    

	$1.20 a (US) gallon	:^) :^)

    Petrol appears to have gone up in all garages by about 7p a gallon
    (1.5p a litre) over the last few days. 
    
    Haven't heard anything about this. Anyone know why ?
    
    Roy

    It was a small item slipped in a couple of days ago, it is connected
    with the change in the value of the $ (I forgot whethor the � went down
    or $ went up).
    
    And they are not running a cartel, of course, its just coincidental
    market forces applying to the UK just before the bank holiday!  
    
    Mike

from VTX...

digital                   14-May-92                      LIVE WIRE
                 NEWS HEADLINES                  




    BRUSSELS APPROVES ENERGY TAX TO FIGHT GLOBAL WARMING

    The European Commission yesterday approved its draft directive to tax
    energy in order to combat global warming. EC figures indicate that the
    tax would have most impact on industry and power station operators.
    Petrol and diesel prices would rise by the year 2000 by 6 and 11
    percent respectively.

    Financial Times, London. 14 May 1992





                         Digital Internal Communication                 1 

Oh, well, there go the chances of getting inflation down....


...does anybody know where the revenue from this new tax will go ?


Ian

    Building nuclear power stations ???

        Well, the EC recommended that it be used to lower the other taxes
    paid by the consumer on fuel, such that there was no net effect.
    
    Fat chance (IMHO, of course)

Re .73,

> even more tax on fuel - a bit harsh on diesel unless it's incorrect...

This proposed tax is, at least in part, a carbon tax.  Maybe diesel has
more carbon in than petrol?  The fuel which will go up by the highest
%age is coal - although not many cars run on that :-)

Re .76,

>         Well, the EC recommended that it be used to lower the other taxes
>    paid by the consumer on fuel, such that there was no net effect.

As I understand it, governments are supposed to keep the overall tax
burden the same so they could offset it by a reduction in VAT, income
tax or whatever.  Decreasing other fuel taxes would defeat the object really.

> Fat chance (IMHO, of course)

IMHO too...

Jon

If they want to cut down on global warming, they ought to shorten the EC
parliamentary sessions.  That will reduce the amount of hot air released into
the environment substantially.

--PSW

    
    re: .78
    
    Let's cut out the US Democratic and Republican Party conventions too!
    
    Mike H.
    

    What you didn't report is that they'd only implement it if other major
    countries like US and Japan also implemented it!.
    
    When do you reckon that'll be???
    Richard

Ahhh Gi'day...

    Wouldn't be anything to do with the current EC budget crunch to pay for
    the absolutely SKYROCKETING cost of the bloody Common Agriculture crap?

    The cost of fuel is getting silly around the Newbury area.
    
    I can buy Diesel for 62.9 (yes!) in Marlborough (ESSO - some
    pricewatch!), 51.9 in Andover (Tesco) and 54.9 in Newbury (Tesco). 
    
    Even the A34 (Sutton Scotney, Shell) and M27 service stations (ESSO)
    are 52.9!
    
    Thats a range of 50p per gallon! Same suppliers (ESSO) , same retailers
    (Tesco), same day...
    
    Jc (who doesn't buy it in Tescos any more)
    

    Its rather worrying to see how prices (at least in my area) have
    risen from 50.9p/litre to 55.9p in the space of just a few weeks.
    
    Thats a 10% increase !
    
    The way I see it is that tesco/sainsbury no longer have any reason to
    sell at rock bottom prices because they know that its trendy for most
    garages to have a 'price watch' and match whatever price they have so
    they can't win the competition.
    
    This is bad news as it takes away price war competition.
    
    Royston                                                 
    

    re my .84,
    
    The cheapest (Tescos, Andover), went up from 51.9 to 53.9 over the
    weekend...
    
    Has anyone gor a URL for the spot markn in Rotterdam?
    
    Jc
    

    Found the spot prices in the US - look at 
    
    	http://146.63.192.199/iea/oil/796.htm  (July)
    			              896.htm  (August)
    
    No significant changes....and the price of the crude is only a small
    percentage of the pump price!
    
    Cartel?  Of course not.
    
    
    Jc
    

    Tesco in Basingstoke has risen from 52.9p/litre three weeks ago to
    57.9p/litre - that's 25 pence per gallon - disgusting.  
    
    Of course the government's rubbing their hands together because any
    sort of increase means increased tax revenue...............hang on a 
    minute - increased tax revenue, forthcoming election, Conservatives 
    desperate to buy some votes therefore need to cut taxes - no, they couldn't 
    be linked..........
    
    Paul   
                                                                

    re .88
    I think most of the tax on petrol is a fixed rate. So the increase goes
    to the petrol station and the fuel companies, not the government.
    
    Andrew

    That's true, but don't forget VAT.
    
    

        I once saw a petrol station in Australia that advertised its
        prices without the tax. I'm not sure if it helped sell the fuel,
        but it was certainly an eye opener.
        
        Ian.

    Reference .89..........I think that you're right, but what does
    increased company profits mean? - more corporation tax paid by those
    companies.
    
    Another thing that I've noticed is that around budget time, petrol
    companies tend to raise the price prior to the inevitable (`environmental')
    petrol tax increase. Anybody got any theories about why they tend to do 
    this (apart from greed).
    
    Paul
     

    I'm sure prices go up before the budget simply so that the oil
    companies can make the magnanomous gesture of absorbing the tax
    increase.
    
    Isn't duty on petrol "ad valoren" or somesuch which means that while
    the duty is a fixed amount it also has to be at least a certain
    percntage. The effect of this is that duty does go up as price
    increase, as does VAT.
    
    Fuel is being increasingly taxed to bring alleged environmental
    benefits.
    
    Andrew

    43.5 in Scotland the other week, at a private garage.  Theory is that
    the owner changes the price every now and again to give admin headaches
    to the local Esso garage.  The Esso garage does indeed watch and
    respond.
    
    Ken