Conference 7.286::home_work

We're about to begin major restoration of our 1870's house.  Most of the
downstairs rooms are being gutted to the studs.  I'd like the new walls to
match, at least in appearance, the old rough plaster walls (some are painted,
most are papered).

As I understand it, there are three basic techniques for creating plaster
walls:

    -  Several layers of plaster over wooden lath
    -  Several layers of plaster over metal, mesh lath
    -  Skim coat of plaster over blueboard

I'm looking for recommendations about these three techniques (or any others).

One thing that I do understand is the putting blueboard on old, non-aligned
studs in non-square rooms can involve a lot of tedious cutting and shimming.

-- Ward

re: .0

A word of advice about timing your plastering, whichever method you choose.

We had out bathrooms redone a couple of years ago.  Downstairs was just
wallboard  covered with wallpaper.  Upstairs was wallboard with a very rough
stucco-looking plaster finish (they called it "Olde Englishe", I think).

Last year, we had the back porch ripped off, an addition (with foundation) put
up in its place, a new septic tank, a french drain(?), and serious landscaping
done.  Apparently, the strain of the heavy machinery, digging, and so on, on the
fieldstone foundation was too much, and the upstairs bath's plaster is now full
of cracks. 

The moral:  Do any heavy work before you plaster.

-joet

I THINK YOU SHOULD CONSIDER THE WALLBOARD AND YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO WORRY TO 
MUCH ABOUT THE SHIMMIMG BECAUSE YOU'LL BE COVERING THE MISTAKES UP.
GOOD LUCK 
   --PAUL--

re: .2

By just covering up the present wall, won't you have to worry about the
additional thickness screwing up the windows?

-joet

		...can someone detail the difference between blueboard and 
	plain ol' drywall/gypsum/sheetrock?

__Rich

Just a guess, but I think the blueboard is a waterproof version of the white
sheetrock.  When I had some tile and wall replaced in a rental bathroom,
they used a blue colored sheetrock because it was water-resistant.  It may
be the same material.

BB

	As I  understand it, blueboard has a chemical coating on it. The
    newer  plaser  mixtures  also  contain  a similar chemical. When the
    plaster  is  applied  to  the  blueboard,  the two chemicals cause a
    tighter bond between the two to help avoid sagging ceilings, cracks,
    etc.

	If you  make  a mistake and use gypsum which you want plastered,
    you  can roll on the chemical coating to simulate blueboard. It does
    not  work quite as well as real blueboard, but well enough for those
    of  you  who  are  stupid  enough  not to know to use blueboard ( of
    course  I  only  heard  about  this, I didn't find out by making the
    mistake myself (-: ).

	I had a ceiling in my house done by Tom ? of Stow Drywall ( I'll
    look it up if anyone needs it). I would recommend him to anyone. Did
    a nice, clean job, showed up on time, and was reasonably priced.

	BTW, one  more  word of caution. I seem to remember hearing that
    blue  board has a "half-life". The chemical coating is only good for
    a period of time (6-9 months??) so if you use it, plan on plastering
    shortly thereafter. Anyone else know about this?

					    mark

	Could someone please tell me why plaster is preferable to
sheetrock? I mean... why would anyone want to apply plaster over
it? What would you gain?
	I have an old house, and am in the process of tearing out
the old plaster and lathe walls, room by room. I figure the money
and time I can save on re-wiring, plumbing, and insulating the open
walls will pay for the re-surfacing, however, my intention is to
use sheetrock, since it's something I can do myself.
	Am I missing something? What's so great about plaster?

-Bob B.

I believe it is much easier to scrape wallpaper off of plaster if you
are the type that likes wallpaper.  However if one uses the "stripable"
stuff, maybe then that is no longer a problem.

With plaster you can get cracks anywhere.  With sheetrock they will
only develop along the seams.  In that sense sheetrock might be better.

I remember the many very painful hours my dad spent finish sheetrock
in a house we built years ago.  In the daylight all looked ok.  Soon
as it got dark and the light hit the wall or ceiling just right you
could see the seams.  He spent many hours sanding to make the seams
disappear.  Of course he was just an amature at sheetrock...

One of the primary reasons I'm interested is plaster for our home is that
the original walls are plaster.  Sheetrock just isn't the same.  It doesn't
look the same, it doesn't feel the same, it's not as good a base for
wallpaper, etc.

In addition, putting 8-foot sheets of sheetrock on 10-foot high walls
leaves a big gap near the ceiling.  :-)   Seriously, high ceilings
complicate the seam hiding problems common to sheetrock walls.

-- Ward

Well, in my opinion, the only difference between the two is the amount of
time it takes to do a good job. 

If you have someone, even yourself, who can do a good job with sheetrock
you cannot tell the difference between a sheetrock or plaster installation
(other than tapping the wall). 

A sheetrock wall will hold wallpaper just as well as plaster, if it is prepared
properly. 

If you're willing to put up with the aggravation of plaster then go for it..

Having had to deal with both I will take sheetrock anyday (I'm also lazy).

The problem with plaster is you cannot find the craftsman today who can do
a good job. If you do find one they are EXPENSIVE. 

Merle

If your ceiling is over 8' high, then go to a drywall supply
firm instead of your local building supply.  They have lengths
of 10', 12', 14', and probably others.  Look in the Yellow
Pages under Drywall Supplies.

jim d.

    Re, -1, -2, -3

	Couldn't you  get  the  best of both worlds by hanging sheetrock
    and  then putting on a skim coat of plaster. I have this in my house
    and it is great. No seams to show, easy to repair, and convenient.

					Mark

I've had a couple of contractors tell me recently that skim coat plaster
over blueboard is the preferred wall treatment these days, simply on
economic grounds.  Although plasterers are indeed highly paid, they only 
have to do their stuff once, whereas the taping-and-topping procedure for 
drywall requires three visits on different days.  Taping and topping also 
involves some fairly messy sanding, which implies that nobody else
(electricians, flooring people, etc.) can work on the room at the same
time. 

The above (so they tell me) applies both to new construction and to
remodeling work.  Note, too, that plaster is more forgiving of the 
plumb-and-square problems found both in old, settled houses and in new, 
slap-it-up construction.

Ward, are you sufficiently rabid to put up lath and scratch coat (if so, my 
unbounded admiration and sympathy), or are you too resorting to the 
expedient of blueboard?

    				David Larrick

RE: .14

The reason I started this topic is that we haven't yet decided what our
new walls will be.  I wouldn't have considered lath and plaster except that
a contractor friend recommended that approach several years ago.

When we do decide (soon, I hope), we'll be considering cost and the
preference of the person doing the work (not me -- it would take me several
years of weekends).

-- Ward

Even if you opt for plaster, there is no need to nail up lath.  There exists
something we used to call "rocklath" which is sheetrock that has a layer
of metal mesh, to which the plaster sticks.

(I just happened to be working for a housing contractor who was putting up
a development in Harrington Park, NJ.  The town's building codes were designed
to keep housing prices up and so required plastering.  They had to hire
plasterers from 50 miles away (that's a fur piece in NJ...) and they were
all in their seventies.)

JP

    
    Does anyone know the difference between blueboard and conventional
    sheetrock?  Can blueboard be painted like sheetrock?  What type
    of material is used the for core of blueboard?
    
    I have had this material recommended for my basement, but know nothing
    about it.
    
    Thanks,
    Denis
    

    As I  understand  it,  blueboard  is  moisture  resistant.    Thus  the 
    recommendation in typically damp areas, like basements, bathrooms, etc.
    
         Bill
         

>    As I  understand  it,  blueboard  is  moisture  resistant.    
         
Nope, that's greenboard (you can't tell the colors without a program!).  
Blueboard, as far as I know, has the same core material as regular sheetrock, 
but the surface is more easily adhered to by plaster.  It is used when you are 
having skim-coat plaster instead of the normal taping of joints.  I don't know 
exactly what is different about the surface, but I would guess it would hold 
paint fine.

Paul

    Technically blueboard is said to be moisture resistant, but only
    to the extent that it can take a skim coat of plaster without wicking
    the water out of the plaster.  As you said, 2. greenboard is for
    for moist and below grade areas.
    
    There is yet another "wallboard product primarily for bathrooms
    with tiled surfaces.  This is called "Wonderboard" by one manufacturer
    and Durarock by another (U.S.G.).  This stuff is  *truly* water
    resistant, as it is Portland cement sandwiched between two screens.
    (its also quite heavy).  You use it as tile backer board, and apply
    it with roofing nails, (or a galvanized common nail).

    I was under the impression (from comments in a recent issue
    of FHB) that blueboard was just moisture absorbant enough
    to wick *some* of the water out of plaster. This helps the
    plaster adhere better to the board. 
    
    I don't know how this characteristic will affect latex, oil 
    or alklyd paints.

    This sounds like a question to ask at your local lumberyard.

    
    Thanks for the replies!  It seems that blueboard isn't really worth
    using unless one plans to plaster over it.  I didn't plan on doing
    any plaster work; I'll have to see what else is available at the
    lumber yard for a moisture resistent application.
    
    Regards,
    Denis

either or can be used successfully, however (in my opinion) blue board
    is slighly thinner to accept the plaster, and the plaster is a superior
    surface (after priming of course) for wall papering. Sure you have
    to prime the sheetrock surface also. But did you ever try to strip
    wallpaper off a piece of sheetrock??? you  usually wind up hitting
    the paper surface. But stripping wallpaper off plaster is a cinch
    as the water you use to soak the old wallpaper with is essentially
    trapped between the paper and the plaster .
    
    So.... unless you're planning to wallpaper twice, sheetrock is fine
    and you don't need to hire a craftsman. Sheetrocking is bullwork
    but plastering is an art in itself. I know they were at my house.
    

         I have completely sheet rocked, blue boarded, and wonderboarded
    my entire home.(had to take down horse hair and plaster....YUK!!!)
    I put blueboard on all the ceilings and had a plasterer apply a
    textured surface(hides all seams and waves especially in an older
    home) I put sheetrock on all walls and after taping with an adhesive
    mesh tape and jointcompounding, I put two coats of paint on all
    walls. The plasterer assured me that painting before wallpapering
    is fine and results in easy removal down the road. I put wonderboard
    in the shower area and would highly recommend it to all doing over
    their bathrooms. Plaster adheres much better to blueboard than to
    sheetrock... they are similar in cost ~$7.00 a sheet for 3/4" and
    the wonderboard was ~$15.00 a sheet for 4'x4' piece...well worth
    the money.

Not that I need any wonderboard, I had used some to make a tile platform for
my woodstove.  When I bought it (over 5 years ago), I had to call MANY stores
before I found it at Concord Lumber and then a 3X5 1/2" piece was around $25!

Are we talking about the same stuff?  It's a concrete and nylon mesh composit
and weight around 50 lbs/sheet!  Whenever I hear about using it in batchrooms
I cringe about both the weight and cost.

Perhaps what you're using is different but goes under the same name?

-mark

         That is the same stuff.....I wasn't quite sure of the size.
    Since my pop-in-law is in the buissness, I happened to pick  up
    the wonderboard at cost. I really would'nt worry about the weight
    since it it nailed to the studs. The price is well worth the 
    aggrivation you will run into down the road if you don't use it!
    All that is needed is a pinhole through the grout to cause quite
    a dilemna under the tile. Regular sheetrock will soak water up
    like a sponge!

    	I think that with all of these replys I'm getting confused...
    Can we clarify things...
    	- Should "wonderboard" be used for ALL tiled wall surfaces
          (kitchen under cab's, bath enclosures etc)? Is
        - Should / Can "greenboard" be used in the rest of a bathroom
    	  that is not going to be tiled. (painted or wall papered)?
    	- Should "greenboard" be used in a kitchen instead of sheetrock?
    	- Should "wonderboard" be used in a bath enclosure even if you
    	  are installing a "tub enclosure" or is "greenboard" good
    	  enough?
    	- What about taping joints on all these products? Is it the
    	  as doing sheetrock?
    
    	I hope this covers it (for now). I hope that they don't come
    	out with somthing new to add more confusion on my part... 
    
    	Any clarification on this will help... Thanks...
    
    
    					Steve
    

        I used the wonderboard only in the tub/shower area of the bathroom,
    as this is the only area that has the potential of getting soaked.
    The wonderboard repels the water. It would be senseless and costly
    to use this throughout the entire bathroom. Greenboard is fine for
    all other areas . Blueboard is also acceptable for walls and cielings
    and plaster/unical adheres better to it. Providing that walls are
    even, it is not necessary to use joint compound over the seems when
    tiling. I would not use wonderboard behind a tub enclosure unless
    it is a sectional one. I think that should cover it.
    
   
    

    I just installed a shower stall and used wonderboard for the walls.
    I got 3'x5' sheets for about $22.
    
    It is an expensive way to do a shower, but in the long run i think
    it is well worth it.
    
    Wonderboard is tough to install. They say you can cut it like
    sheetrock, although I did not find this to be the case.  The majority
    of my cutting was done with an abrasive cutting wheel in my circular
    saw. This method of cutting is VERY, VERY, DUSTY. Cut as much as
    you can like sheetrock, cut they rest outdoors.
    
    I used a fiberglass tape and KERABOND to seal the joints.
    Applying the tile to wonderboard with the kerabond was a easy and
    gives the installer the feeling they're doing a job that is going
    to last.
    
    I used plated wallboard screws to attach the wonder board. It takes
    longer than nailing, but is much neater.
    
    
    

    I'm not sure it makes sense to REPLY to a very old note, but I just
    this moment entered this conference.
    
    We have a 200 year old farmhouse --- nothing is straight, nothing
    is level    except in one room where we made the mistake of "doing
    it right" --- looks just like a damn motel room,  neat, tidy, out
    of character with the rest of the house.  The original house has
    split lathe behind horse hair plaster.  We dragged our feet for
    years before tackling one of the front rooms where the plaster ceiling
    was badly cracked and loose.  Betty dragged down the old plaster
    leaving the lathe intact; God, what a job!  We were lucky enough
    to find a local craftsman who replastered to our specifications:
    woobles and wiggles and waves retained, surface texture matched
    to the rest of the original house.  Other bidders would only consider
    wall board and making the ceiling "perfect".  We did the right thing
    by retaining the character.
    
    Here then was one very valid reason to use plaster.

    
    Is there anyone out there who has removed this stuff???
    
    I'm in the process of redoing a 36 year old house that I bought
    and I'm into my first problem!!!How do you remove Z-BRICK from
    the kitchen walls (backsplash) without pulling down the wall???
      About 25 linear feet approx. 18" high.
    
    I will be putting new cabinets in and probabally put tile or 
    some sort of backsplash back up.(whichever is easiest)
    
    So far,I've put down 1/4" exterior grade plywood in the bathroom
    and then tile....will grout it tonight.I didn't replace the 
    flange (?) as it was pretty well secured and I couldn't find how
    it was attached?? My next question is how do you put the hopper
    back with just a wax ring (doesn't it move ?) or is there a ring
    that looks like this |      | <--- wax.I think this is what I need??
                          \    / <---- rubber    
      BTW,from the top of my tile to the top of the flange is about
    1/4".
    
     Any help this novice can get will be GREATLY appreciated (sp)
     thanks in advance.
    
    Tony....
    

    We TRIED removing Z-brick several years ago.  We failed.  We instead
    removed the sheetrock it was attached to and started over.
    
    We spent lots of effort trying to keep the sheetrock from self-
    destructing.  Didn't work.  The glue was too good.

    re: fake brick
    
    I have the same problem in my kitchen.  Compounding it, is the fact
    that they didn't want to buy many bricks, so they left over 1" gaps
    between each brick.
    
    Over the years, several contractor friends have been over and they
    say the only way is to tear the wall down.  It's a hell of a lot
    easier then trying to scrape that epoxy mastic off.
    
    re: wax rings
    
    I'm not sure what your question is.  your little picture IS a wax
    ring.  The part that you indicate is rubber is usually plastic.
    Can you rephrase your problem?
    
    -joet

    
    Re: .1 I was thinking that would happen and figured I would have
    to cut it out and start over.Just thought there was an easier way.
    
    Re: .2  I never saw one when I removed the old hopper and I thought
    that's what they looked like,but I wasn't sure.
    
    Thanks a lot,I feel better already....almost like a pro :-)
    
    Tony....

    	You are lucky, the previous owner of my place put fake brick not
    only on the walls of the kitchen but also over the counter tops!
    It makes cleaning up spills real fun.
	I've had no luck removing it with out ripping the plaster off
    the walls and exposing the lathe.  Looks like I'm going to have
    to go to the studs on the room in addition to replacing the counters.

    					=Ralph=
    
    	(who will redo his kitchen after he replaces 10 windows, insulates
    the attic, and pours the concrete for the new bulkhead)    

    Since I will be doing a lot of work on this place and I am a novice,
    if it helps anyone else...I will use this note as a diary of my
    costs and experiences/problems.
    
    Well to start things off,my sub-floor that I put down and tiled
    (which I thought I did a good job on) had some movement when I walked
    on it and on further inspection....I found that I didn't put enough
    ring nails in .....6" apart on 15" centers....well I chipped out
    the tiles without nails under and renailed and then put the tiles
    back!!! Its ok now.Then I figured I try and grout a small spot to
    see what kind of problems that would be.....some of the netting
    is sticking between the tiles and didn't take grout properly,so
    it looks like I will go over the whole floor and trim the excess
    netting.
    
    

    	Re. Wax rings. You are correct about the wax rings with a rubber
    	gasket on the bottom. I have used both types (with the gasket
    	without) and have found that the ones without tend to develop
    	leaks eaiser. For a little more $$ get the kind with the
    	rubber / plastic gasket, as you drew.
    
    					Steve
    

    Thanks for the info on the wax rings...I bought 2 as was suggested
    somewhere in here,but I only need one.They are only $1.29 at spags!!
    I set the hopper over the weekend and now I can go to the bath room
    :-)...seems like I always had to go when it wasn't hooked up!!
    Well the kitchen cabinets are all ripped out and I'm now in the
    process of putting a primer coat of paint on all the walls and the
    wookwork.I have to wire in some new outlets and move the 220v to
    the other side of the room.Also have to move the sink drain as it
    interferes (sp) with where the dishwasher will go!!
    I feel like I've gotten a lot accomplished as I can now see the
    end in sight.BTW,if any one wants to see the finished product when
    its done....let me know!!
    
    I got the prices for the cabinets and they will cost $2500. including
    tax.(thats for approx.24' of cabs. top and base with a wine rack)
    
    The counter top will cost $568. this includes a special radius top.
    This is more than I expected to pay it averages around $16/ft.
    
    Tony....

    If you have increased the space between the hopper and the toilet
    flange by installing tile and thus lifting up the toilet, you should
    double up on your wax rings. use one flanged ring and one flat ring.
    Mount the flanged ring so the plactic flange is down in the toilet
    floor flange and the flat ring should be against the hopper. When
    you push them together they will seal up and the excess will just
    spill over into the space underneath the hopper.
    

    
    Hi folks,
    
    I have a question.  About 3 months ago my mother had the walls
    of her attic (now renovated into two bedrooms) insulated with
    "blown in insulation".  The indoor walls of the attic are made
    of dark paneling.  She now would rather have sheet rock instead.  
    Due to the type of insulation she has would it be o.k. to
    put the sheet rock over the paneling to avoid a big mess.

    Thanks,
    
    Sandy
    

    We too had our house insulated this way.  Last year I gutted the
    kitchen and I'd say 75% of the insulation stayed in place.  It is
    packed very tightly.  I replaced what had fallen with unfaced
    insulation and wrapped the room in 4 mil plastic.  It wasn't that 
    big a mess.
   
    If you were to go right over the paneling you'd have to think of
    what you'd do with the outlets and switch boxes, because they wouldn't
    line up with the 1/2" (or whatever) sheetrock.
    
    					Steve

    I am replying, assuming that the attic area has anglar celing. Blown
    in insulation have a problem with gravity. In time, as they pack
    down, the upper area will loose their insulating properties. If
    youre to sheet rock over the paneling, it'll save you the headache
    of rensulation if you remove the paneling and reinsulate with
    insulation that have foil reflector, vapour barrier bonded to the
    fiberglass insulation.
    
    /cal hoe

I'M  in the process of putting new sheet rock up on my 3 seasons porch.
    When I went to pick up the sheet rock the lumber place only had
    blue board. So I picked up a couple sheets. Then later I used sheet
    rock to finish the job. Now I was wondering, I want to paint the
    walls will there be much of a difference in texture between the
    2 types.
    
    
    Art
    

    Blue board is intended to have a 1/8 inch or so "skim coat" of
    "plaster" over it.   Thus, it is "thinner" than normal 1/2 inch
    sheetrock (the skim coat makes up the difference).   The blue surface
    is specially treated to be able to sustain the one-shot moisture
    burden of the plaster.   I doubt that this will look good with the
    regular sheetrock next to it.  They are not intended to coexist
    without the skim coat.   I would bite the bullet, learn from the
    experience, and take down the "couple of sheets" of blueboard and
    replace them with regular 1/2 inch sheetrock (or replace the regular
    sheetrock with blueboard).   The latter is likely to be more expensive,
    but will give you a much better surface.   Skim coating (plastering)
    is not to be undertaken  by a DIY'er lightly.   It is a difficult
    undertaking if you've never done it before.   If you don't mind
    "wasting"  a wall, experimentation is possible.

       Do a dir/title="blueboard" or see note 235 for more info.

    
    
    OK, OK, 
               I give up, 
                        please excuse me for being British


              But what is sheetrock?    You guys are always talking
    about the stuff, I have this picture in my mind of factories all
    over the US slicing up damn great lumps of granite and then people
    nailing them to their walls.
                            
           I know we we have some odd ideas over here & over there but
    I can't quite swallow this one.
    
                                 Chris H
                                     (Confused of Basingstoke)

    gypsum between paper

    It's powdered gypsum, compressed and more-or-less bonded together,
    sandwiched between two sheets of heavy paper.  It comes in 3/8",
    1/2", and 5/8" thicknesses, in 4'x8' sheets.  It is fairly cheap
    (about $8/sheet for the 1/2" thickness,last time I checked), mostly
    fireproof, and it makes a smooth wall surface without too much effort.
    After nailing (or screwing) it in place, the joints between the sheets 
    and the indentations of the nail or screw heads are filled with goop 
    known as "joint compound", then sanded smooth when the stuff dries.  
    It doesn't make for quite as nicely finished a job as "real" plaster, 
    but it's not too bad.

Sheetrock is a brand name of wallboard.

    
    Ahaa, Its plasterboard, I thought it might be, thanks folks, I
    can sleep nights again.
    
                    Chris H

    I am thinking of a putting up a short wall and covering it with
    oak stripping (2 1/2" or 3").  I'm interested in sugggestions
    regarding:
    		sheetrock vs. plywood or chipboard
    		nailed oak vs. adhesive.
    
    Seems to me that glued oak over sheetrock would be easier than
    nailed oak over wood (I presume nailing into sheetrock isn't the
    way to go?).
    
    Thanks	__Rich

    Why not just use tongue and groove oak and blind nail it directly
    to the studs?  As you work up from the ground, you will always be
    able to see where the studs are.
    
    -al

    You don't say if you want the oak finish to be vertically or
    horizontally oriented; if horizontal, then I agree with .1 that
    t&g blind nailed to the studs of the wall is best; if you want vertical
    strips of oak, you could also use the t&g (such as flooring, actually)
    and just put furring strips (1x2 pine) horizontally across the studs
    first (I'd space them 12"), then blind nail the t&g oak to the furring.
    Bear in mind that nailing thru oak isn't easy to do without danger
    of splitting (at least in this application)... best to pre-drill,
    and
    I'd also suggest using spiral-shank flooring nails-- they are excellent
    for holding power.
    	Jim
    

    Thanks for the ideas; I like the idea of no intermediate 'sheathing.'
    One reason that I was going to go that way was that I did not plan
    on using the oak immediately; rather, have a painted wall for a
    while, then when I have time, add the oak.  In that case, suggestions?
    
    The oak would be diagonal, actually.  No furring needed.  More
    specifically, I am biulding a 'closet' at one end of a long room
    to hold a large aquarium with a cutout in the wall for the tank;
    something like at a public aquarium.  I thought it would look nice
    to add diagonal oak stripping.
    
    __Rich

    Suggest you use square-cut flooring nails; my guess would be that
    spiral or any other kind of round nail would be almost guaranteed
    to split the oak.  With the square-cut nails you can put them in
    without pre-drilling, with no splitting.
    
    					   // <-- nail at angle, with
    		_________________________ //      "wide" axis of square-
    		|__			|__       cut nail parallel to
    		  |			 __|      grain.  (slightly more
    		|--			|         angle than shown here)
    		-------------------------

    have looked here for this ans and couldn't find it, soooo.
    I'm putting in a half bath, have put up the walls and taped them.
    Should I sand the seams before putting on the second coat of paste?
    My DIY book mentions sanding only after the third coat.
    
    Gary

    I always sand the seams to remove the rough spots.   I don't pay
    as much attention to the sanding the first coat as the second. 
    Third coat?   I've NEVER done three...

    I think it depends on how bad the first coat looks.  Me, I seem
    to ALWAYS end up sanding!  (I think it would probably be helpful
    to knock off any high spots and bumps, the second coat will go on
    more easily and more smoothly.)

    thanks, sanding between makes sense. 
    re.1 3 coats is what is in the book. I guess it would depend on
    how it looks after two.
    
    thanks again
    gary

  You can save yourself some sanding time by smoothing the joints with a
  damp/wet sponge *before* it dries.  Final sanding may still be needed,
  though...

  JP

    On the second coat:   I thin the compound with a little water before
    the second coat.   This makes it spread lots easier, and you can
    get by with less on the second coat.   It also spreads out lots
    easier, and so requires less sanding.

    I have just completed hanging 65+ sheets of 4x8 sheetrock and doing
    the seams. I too would suggest NOT worrying about sanding the FIRST
    coat. You should however make certain to sand down any bumps and
    splatters that would get in the path on the second coat. As for
    the second coat, I find that I didn't have to thin the mixture,
    instead, I put a 'glob' of the joint compound on the seam and then
    work with it from there. This movement and the 'kneeding' effect
    that it produces basically 'thins' the joint compound and makes
    it real smooth. Looks VERY clean and neat. Finally, I sponged
    the edges of the second coat a few hours after I applied it.
    (yes, it looked dry, but it really did help!)
    
    M
    

    
    The pro's hardly sand at all, if ever.
    
    The important thing is not to leave high spots on the first coat.
    Low spots are ok, because they will fill in later. The trick is
    not to play with the mud too much. Get it onto the joint, remove
    some of the excess, then make one smooth-motioned pass and LEAVE
    IT ALONE.
    
    After it is dry, run a blade along the joint at a very low angle,
    to remove any beads of excess to the sides of the joint, left from
    the final pass. This will also locate the small ridge you probably
    left when you moved the blade away from the surface during that
    pass - sand that lightly, or just worry it with the blade a little
    to flatten it.
    
    There's a bunch of good reasons to sand as little as possible:
    
    	o  Joint compound dust is just as miserable as plaster dust
    	   to clean up.
    
    	o  Coarse paper leaves gouges - fine paper clogs almost immediately
    	   (and damp sponging will leave a mess unless you have *just*
    	   the right amount of water on the sponge - BTW, sponging should
    	   be done after the mud is dry; the water resoftens the top
    	   layer; too much water resoftens a lot more).
    
    	o  Sanding to feather the joint edges will raise fibers from
    	   the paper surface of the wallboard.

I, too, am in the final throes of sheetrocking six very large rooms--four are 
done and I'm on the last coat of the biggest (16'x32' w/ cathedral ceiling).
In addition to all the good advice already in this note, I offer the following:

	- After a light sanding (or sometimes just a going over with a spackle
	  knife to get off the lumpys) of the second coat, I apply the final 
	  coat with a 14" trowel.  This gives a near perfect joint with one 
	  swipe and what little sanding is required is quite easy.  The trowel
	  is slightly convex so that the little bit of pressure applied while 
	  putting on the compound gives a nice feathered edge to the joint.

	- After sanding and you think the joint is perfect, take a flashlight
	  and run the beam parallel to the wall up and down the joint from 
	  both sides.  Every imperfection will jump out at you like a beacon!
	  I carry the flashlight in one hand and a 4" knife in the other with
	  a small amount of compound on it.  As I spot the imperfection, I
	  swipe it with the compound.  Later (usually just a few minutes 'cuz
	  it's such a small amount) a swipe with the sander finishes it 
	  This step really makes the difference--after all it is merely simulat-
	  ing what happens later when you put a lamp near the wall (except then
	  it's too late!)

	- Do not wet sand the final coat!  Wet sanding gives a near mirror 
	  finish to the joint, but there _is_ a texture to the sheetrock.  When
	  you paint the wall, the differences in the texture sticks out like 
	  crazy.

As you probably guessed, I've made few mistakes along the way, but I learned
from them and I hope this helps you out.

						--Mike

    
    RE .8 For the final coat do you use a trowel or do you use a large
    joint compound knife?   Also, I tend to have a problem "feathering
    the edges" correctly?  None of my books really go into this much
    -- could you offer some advice?  Also, is it a good idea to thin
    the final (third coat of compound to make it spread easier?
    
    Thanks

> RE .8 For the final coat do you use a trowel or do you use a large
    joint compound knife? 
    
I would call it a trowel.  I'll try to "draw" the tools I use (definitely *not*
to scale):
	<--4"->		<---6"---->		<--------14"------------>
	_______		___________		________________________
	\     /		\	  /		|	________	|
	 \   /		 \	 /		|	|_______|	|	
	  \ /		  \     /		|_________^_____________|
	  | |		   \   /			  |
	  | |		    | |				Handle
	  | |		    | |
	  ---		    | |
			    ---
	1st Coat	2nd coat			Final coat



As I mentioned in .8, the trowel is slightly convex so as pressure is put on it,
it tends to flatten out and the feathering happens almost automatically.  Be-
ing 14" wide also helps to feather.

> Also, is it a good idea to thin the final (third coat of compound to make 
    it spread easier?
    
I don't thin it and have never tried it, so I guess I don't know.  I don't 
think it's that hard to spread anyway.


						--Mike

    re .8  I found that while working with the compound for any of the
    coats, it tended to thin itself out. Using a trowel definately 
    helped the feathering process.
    
    Gary

    On a similar note, I just finished some shopping around for sheetrock;
    here are the prices I found, fyi:
    
    			1/2	FIRE		GREEN		BLUE
    				5/8		1/2		1/2
    
    Somerville		7.46	10.40		11.52		7.46
    (free delivery)
    
    Coldwell's (berlin)	8.10	10.50		12.85		8.10
    (free delivery)
    
    Lampson		8.65	10.25		11.20		8.65
    
    C&S (Millbury)	7.75	10.50		10.80		8.20
    (0.25/sheet liv)
    
    Pelletier & Sons	7.45	9.28		10.43		7.45
    (Fitchburg)
    (free deliver on
     orders over $700.
     has a boom truck
     for 2nd/3rd floors)
    

    I was surprised that Somerville was so close to the top in terms
    of best buy; I go there for almost everything, but had figured I
    was paying more of a premium for the one-stop shopping.
    -reed
    

I've generally found Somerville lumber, (in Derry NH, mostly) to beat most other
places for price for lumber, at least...  I've been making some bookcases, and a
base for my waterbed;  Somerville lumber had 1x6 for .33$/foot, and 1x8 for
.44$/foot, typical prices seemed to be .45$/foot, and .60$/foot. I know which I
picked!  I'm a cheap sucker, I make most things out of Common Pine, and shuffle
through most of the stock, and take the best pieces...

Jim.

    Weren't those sheetrock prices at Sommerville lumber just sale prices?
    I saw them in a recent ad and assumed that they weren't their regular
    prices.
    For regular pine (as described in .-1) you'll get it cheaper from
    a mill like Bingham lumber in Brookline NH than you will from
    Sommerville lumber.
    

re:.-2

>Somerville lumber had 1x6 for .33$/foot, and 1x8 for
>.44$/foot, typical prices seemed to be .45$/foot, and .60$/foot. I know which I
>picked!  I'm a cheap sucker, I make most things out of Common Pine, and shuffle
>through most of the stock, and take the best pieces...

If you're indeed a cheap sucker :-), you're getting ripped off!!! Nobody 
should EVER buy pine from a retailer.  Go to a saw mill.  There are LOTS 
around.  I buy most of my stuff at Parlee's in Littleton.  They sell 
kilndried pine for 60-80 cents a board foot.  That's about half of what 
you just quoted for Summerville.  If you don't mind one side of the 
board rough, they sell it for I think 45 cents a board foot.  Remember, 
it takes 2 feet of a 1X6 to make a single board foot.

For those in Southern NH, there's Binghams.  I know there are lots of 
them around, you just have to look a little.

-mark

>>Somerville lumber had 1x6 for .33$/foot, and 1x8 for
>>.44$/foot, typical prices seemed to be .45$/foot, and .60$/foot. I know which I
>>picked!  I'm a cheap sucker, I make most things out of Common Pine, and shuffle
>>through most of the stock, and take the best pieces...

> I buy most of my stuff at Parlee's in Littleton.  They sell 
>kilndried pine for 60-80 cents a board foot.  That's about half of what 
>you just quoted for Summerville. 
    
    How did you figure that?  .33/linear foot of 6" = .66 bd ft.  which
    is at the bottom end of what you quoted.  And Somerville lumber
    has free delivery!  
    

re:-1

oops...  I looked at the price quoted for 1X8 but saw 1X6 and hence 
thought they were charing over .80/foot.  Oh well..

Anyhow, I first got interested in dealing with Parlee after buying 
several 16 foot 1X12's at the local lumber yard for close to $15 a 
board.  The local mill sold me the same board, shiplapped and planed 
only on one side for around $4.  I would NEVER, EVER buy pine at a 
lumber yard again!

Then again, I don't live to far from Parlee and even drive by one my way 
to/from work (at LKG).

I'm sure there are other saw mills around the state (and country) that 
people could benefit from if they knew of their existence.

-mark

I've got  a  joint  compound  question.  I  have been using a joint compound
manufactured  by  Georgia Pacific simply called 'Joint Compound'. It proudly
states on the label that it contains no asbestos.

Now, I  just  bought  a  5 gal bucket of joint compound called 'Gold bond EV
280',  from a company called 'Gold Bond Building Products'. It doesn't say it
does  or  does  not  contain  asbestos, but does have several warnings about
making  sure to wear an approved dust mask and eye protection. It also says
that  dry  sanding  should  be avoided, if possible, to reduce the amount of
dust.  The compound is gray in the bucket, instead of white as I am used to.
The label says the material meets 'ASTM C475', whatever that means.

I was  confident that home building materials with asbestos were outlawed or
something, but could it be the this stuff has asbestos in it?

Jim...

    I have a bucket of EV280 here that I've been using.  I also have
    a bucket of USGypsum compound which states non-asbestos.  
    
    I couldn't find anything about asbestos on the gold bucket either.
    Why don't you call them up and ask?  Gold Bond Building Products
    is in Charlotte, NC.  
    Let us know what they say (although I suspect there's no asbestos
    in there).
                                                   

    I too would assume that it contains no asbestos... the dust mask
    and dry sanding warnings are probably good advice for ANY type of
    compound...
    
    M
    

    
    A little comedy relief:
    
    What is JOINT Compound used for???  Is the name of the stuff
    misleading?
    
    Steve
    

    Makes 'em easier to roll...8^)
    It is basicly a plaster mud that is used as the adhesive/filler
    for taped joints between panels of sheetrock. It can also be used
    as a patching compound for nailholes,ect.
    

	Good for thickening soup too.....8-{0}

Or applied to a ceiling with a trowel for that "stucco look".

    Can you use joint compound to skim coat an old plaster wall?  The
    original plaster has a concrete like finish.  I tried "skimming"
    a section with joint compound and a trowel, and it looks pretty
    good.  I'd like to paint this wall instead of paper it.
    
    I guess "real" wall guys use plaster; does it matter?
    
    
    thanks,
    ...bill

    
    Suppose you could, but:
    
    	o  it doesn't get hard like plaster - may not hold
    	   up too well to abuse
    
    	o  it will resoften when it gets wet - you must seal it (since
    	   you intend to paint over it, this should not be a problem,
    	   except perhaps in a humid area - I would definitely seal
    	   it before papering over it)
    

    re: .8
    
    I guess joint compound over the whole wall can't be any worse than
    than seams on good ol' wall board.
    
    ..bill

    I have used it as texture and cant tell the difference.
    But time will tell this was less than a year ago.....
    Why wouldent it work?
    

    Re: the original question posed by this note... Joint compounds
    do not contain asbestos; they do, however, contain ground minerals
    (especially mica dust) which are no fun to inhale.   Probably also
    some silicon dioxide (sand), because it's cheap filler for such
    stuff.
    

    I plan to retile a bathroom including the sheetrock. I've used Wonder
    board before, but would prefer not to use it again because it is
    expensive, hard to handle, hard to cut and hard to fasten to the
    wall. How much less water resistant is green sheetrock than Wonder
    board and do you think it is worth using it instead. Or is there
    an even better product around now? Thanks.
    
      mitch

    See note 235

    
    How about using marine grade plywood?  

    The amount of time/energy you will spend putting up Wonderboard is
    negligible compared to the difference it will make in the longevity
    of your tile job.  With sheetrock, you apply the tiles with mastic;
    if any moisture gets behind the tile, either the sheetrock or the mastic
    gives out and tiles start falling off.

    With Wonderboard, you apply the tiles with thin-setting concrete.
    Moisture makes it stronger!  Of course, if you have a real leak
    something else will eventually get damaged by the water.
    But, you won't have any problems caused by pin-holes in your grout
    or by water vapor getting behind the tiles.

    Tile is a brittle medium; you can't expect to build a waterproof
    membrane (your shower enclosure) out of tile.  Therefore you should
    use materials that will not fail in a damp environment.

	There is now a product called Durock (US Gypsum) which is I
suspect a Wonderboard competitor but I know nothing more about it.
Their store displays are usually a small box made of the stuff with
water in it (one enterprising place had some turtles!).

	I agree with .-1 that the expense/time with these products
are nothing compared to the expense/time of eventual failure of other
systems...and I have the experience wherefrom I speak...

    I built a wood stove stand using DUROCK.  Used an abrading blade
    on my circular saw to score it for 'cutting'.
    
    Stuff appears (used advisedly, cause I don't _know_) to be a mixture
    of cement (or gritty plaster) with very small styrofoam balls stirred
    in, confined between two layers of nylon mesh.
    
    Is messy 'cause it crumbles at the cut edges, is _very_ heavy, and
    does not burn.  Nor dissolve in water.	;})
    
    Dwight

    Made by:	United States Gypsum
    
    Material:	Aggregated hydraulic cement board with vinyl-coated,
    		woven glass-fiber mesh in back and front surfaces.
    
    Size:	1/2" thick; 3 ft wide; 4, 5, and 6 ft. long.
                              
    Weight:	Approx. 3 lb/sq. ft. for 1/2" thickness.
    
    Edges:	Square cut.
    
    
    Just happen to have a sample piece in my desk.

    But joint compounds ALL used to contain asbestos.  It took awhile
    for the companies to develop a substitute mixture that had the same
    flow characteristics of the asbestos mix.  Also, according to someone
    who resides in San Diego, all those neat popcorned (spray textured)
    ceilings done before about 1979 have asbestos.  And that stuff is
    made to flake!!
    
    So exercise care when remodeling.

    I'm in the process of finishing off a new bathroom, and I now have
    to install towel holders, toilet paper holder etc ...
    
    In won't be able to use a stud in all instances, and I'm wondering
    what the best method is for fastening these items to sheetrock walls.
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated, Thanks, Larry
                                                           

    From my experiences (far, far from expert or exhaustive) I would
    say - don't.  Those lag bolts (?) or at least mollies only succeed
    in tearing out an even larger, more ragged hole than not.
    
    Dwight    

    
    We've put up permanent toilet tissue holders and towel rings
    using plastic anchors and screws.  Drill a hole in the wall
    just big enough to hold the anchor snugly, then screw the
    fixture into the anchor.  The anchor expands a little inside 
    the wall, making for a nice tight fit.
    
    If you ever want to remove them, all you'd have to do is unscrew
    the fixture, pull out the anchor and plaster/spackle/sand/paint 
    and you'll never know the difference.  We've done it...
    
    Sometimes it's just not convenient to install something directly
    into a stud.  If we'd put our toilet tissue holder into a stud,
    it would have been tough to reach...
    

    The plastic anchors invariably weaken, and the item pulls away from
    the wall, especially on towel bars.   Nearly all of the towel bars
    have pulled away from the top anchor.
    
    I've gone over to using the wood towel bars (and TP holders).  
    Instead of the plastic screw anchors, I use molly bolts.  The screw
    from the molly doesn't show since it holds the wooden piece to the
    wall, going over a metal bracket which attaches to the wood piece.
    Then, over the metal bracket the "business part" of the towel bar
    is attached with a set screw from below.   Viola.  It'll hold forever
    unless the kids decide to do chinups from it.

    I've had good luck with a product called "The Toggler". 
    
    It's a plastic insert that has two "wings" that you compress before you
    stuff it in the hole. Next you insert a plastic "key" thru the hole and
    push the "wings" so that they snap open. Remove the key and screw in
    the sheet metal screw. They are very strong and secure. 
    
    I tried to remove some the other day and couldn't, I finally gave
    up and drove them into the wall with a hammer and punch and patched
    the hole.
    
    Charly
    

I've has excellent luck using 'wall fasteners' (are these also called
molly bolts?) to support weight, and plastic fasteners for secondary
holes.  To 'remove a wall fastener - sink it about 1/4" into the wall
and spackle over it.

re:-1

They're even easier to remove.  I simply pry the top up a little and it pops 
right off.  Then all you need do it push the remainder through the wall.

I've always wondered if they were explicitly designed for this purpose since 
it's so easy to do.

-mark

This sounds good, but I don't understand it< Note 1122.6 by BOEHM::SEGER "this space intentionally left blank" >

>They're even easier to remove.  I simply pry the top up a little and it pops 
>right off.  Then all you need do it push the remainder through the wall.

What's "it" - 
		thanx!	/j

    I'm not a big fan of either plastic expansion plugs or toggle bolts.
    The plugs fall out and the toggle bolts require too big a hole to
    get the wings through.
    However, I like and have had good luck with Molly bolts.  You do
    have to be a bit careful to get the right length for the thickness
    of wall you have.
    Another alternative might be to glue the fixtures to the wall.

    I used to work for the corporate parent of Molly (tm) Screw (EMHART Corp.)
    There are a lot of engineering considerations which indeed go
    in to the design of that simple device. 
    
    Yes, the head is designed to be able to be easily pried off, permitting
    you to push the whole body of the Molly through the wall when no
    longer needed. The hole left behind is the diameter of the original
    shaft before expansion, not the larger diameter of the bolt head.
    
    Remember, the bolt expands while screwing. When the screw head meets
    the bolt head the force applied by additional screwing is what expands
    the bolt. This means that no force is applied to the wall at this
    point, only when the bold expands enough to actually meet with
    the wall interior. Over tightening may cause wallboard failure
    from the inside - out, but only if you have chosen an incorrect
    size ; there is a correct size for all standard wallboard thicknesses,
    be sure to use the correct one.
    
    There is a special tool that Molly markets which performs the
    bolt expansion without screwing. This is convenient if you have
    many bolts to insert, and wish to perform your job sequentially
    ---,  drilling all the holes , inserting all the Molly's ,
    attaching what ever it is you're trying to fasten to the wall.
    After the hole is drilled, the tool accepts the complete Molly
    assembly (screw and expansion bold). You insert the shaft into
    the whole and press the tool's trigger. The trigger pulls the
    screw with enough leveraged force that the bolt expands without
    screwing, and you can feel the point where the bolt is firmly
    expanded against the wall interior without any damage. Remove
    the screw (it's loose, no screw driver needed) , position
    the item which you're fastening, screw with a screw drive.
    The tool is simple to use... and available from places like
    Somerville Lumber for about $5.00.
    
    

    I cut the towel rods down so that they fit on the studs. It takes
    two rods now instead of one but they're not going anywhere.
    
    Molley bolts seem to work fine on the other ones in the house.

    And the moral of this note is ...
    
    Plan ahead !  Design the room so that it contains 2x plates in places
    you plan to attach things to the wall.
    
    
    Mark
    

	Re: .-1

		I have a bucket of joint compound, (brand uncertain, but
a major one - Durabond, US Gypsum etc.) purchased within the year, which
has an explicit "Contains Asbestos" warning recommending mask and wet sanding
only...

    Couldn't find this in directory so,,,,
    
    I need to cut a window in my loft which overlooks the master bedroom.
    I can cut it from either side. The side in the master bedroom is
    finished.
    
    Which side do I cut from. I remember cutting some sheetrock before
    and it left one side jagged, the other smooth. 
    
    Can someone help?
    
    thanks
    Gary

    How did you cut it before?  I'm not sure why one side should end
    up jagged and the other side smooth.
    I assume you have to cut the hole in the center of a sheet.  I'm
    no great expert on sheetrock, but here's how I'd do it.  Maybe
    somebody else has a better idea.
    Locate the four corners of the hole, and drill a small hole (1/8"
    or so) at each corner to mark it.  With a straightedge and a sharp
    utility knife, cut around the opening on BOTH sides, cutting between
    the holes you just drilled.  Go back to the first side and cut a
    little deeper, then the other side.  At that point you can probably
    cut from just one side and work the knifeblade through to cut it
    completely.
    Another way would be to finish cutting with a small handsaw, after
    first cutting the paper on both sides with a knife.  A Skilsaw makes
    a pretty clean cut, but the amount of dust it generates in the process
    is absolutely astounding...don't try it!
    

    Regardless of how you cut the sheetrock (although a saw would be best
    in this situation), wouldn't you be installing sometime of window and
    then framing in with finish molding? If so, then the "smoothness" of
    the cut really isn't too important, unless you plan to use a chainsaw.
    :-)
    
    Charly 

    Actually I used a keyhole saw last time. 
    
    And yes I will be putting trim around it, but because the outside
    (bedroom side) has been spayed with a textured paint, I was trying
    to keep it from cracking. I am concerned that the saw may rip the
    finish off or crack it.
    
    gary

    
    re: .3
    
    If you're concerned with cracking your paint, I suggest you cut
    from the side the paint is on.  Take your time and make sure you
    use a good blade on your utility knife.  It may take several passes
    over each cut line but it should come out smooth and straight.
    
    Shane
    

    An excellent aid to cutting is a metal ruler (got a 48" one at
    Channel for under $10 for this purpose).  It is heavy enough not
    to shift a lot when you are cutting and the edge doesn't bugger
    when you cut against it.
    
    --Peg__

    
    
    reply to .4
    
      I second the motion for taking your time and using a box knife.
    Don't be afraid to change the blade on your knife after only a few
    scores because it will dull VERY quickly. A dull blade could lead 
    to your using too much pressure on the knife which in turn could
    cause you to crack the paint or go astray with the knife and cause
    a mess.
    
    Glenn

    When cutting with a knife score the finish side first then after
    bending to make the break cut the paper on the hidden side.
    This will give an almost perfect cut everytime.
    If you are sawing cut with the finish side down(saber saw) which
    will prevent the paper from being pulled away by the upward cut
    action of the saw.
    As said in other replies besure to cut all the way through the paper.
    A linolium(sp?) knife will work the best(hooked blade) I have one
    that has been used on countless sheetrock jobs and still hasent
    been sharpened. The razor blade type are only good for cutting yourself
    for this type of work, the blade is not sturdy enough.
    
    -the mud slinger
    

    thanks for the advice. I'm going to give it a go this evening. I'll
    let you know how it comes out
    
    g

     I once saw an 'old pro' cut out holes for electrical outlets by 
scoring the outline of the hole on both sides, then score the 
diagonals of the rectangle on both sides, and then just give it a good 
whcak with a hammer.

    re.9
    That always impressed me too.
    

    Professional sheetrockers and plasterers do amazing things - most
    of which lead to a disaster if tried by amateurs.  The diagonal
    slash over an outlet box trick will work but you usually get a lot
    of paper ripped off the back of the cut and a lot of loose gypsum
    comes with it.  Yeah you don't see it when the wall is finished
    but it sure is sloppy.
    
    I use a sheetrock hand saw and a magic marker.  Just mark around
    the front edge of the electrical box and press the board into position
    - the outline of the box will transfer to the back of the board.
    Remove it, cut, and put it back up.
    
    There is also an expensive gadget that some pros use.  It's sort
    of a side cutting drill designed to pilot along the outside of a
    box.  It's super fast and accurate.
    
  
    

    I have 2 questions concerning sheetrocking around electrical outlets.
    I know other people must have run into these problems but I haven't
    seen them mentioned.
    
    What do you do if after you've finished sheetrocking, and painting,
    and:
    
    1.  The hole is too big so the outlet cover doesn't cover the hole
    on 1 or more sides?
    
    or worse, 
    
    2.  The outlet boxes stick out slightly beyond the sheetrock so
    the outlet covers aren't flush with the wall?
    
    Although I can think of solutions for the first problem, I've never
    found a way to fix the second.
    
    

    You can take joint compound and fill the space between the sheet
    rock and the outlet. After that has dried you can put on another
    coat and taper it from the outlet, out. If the space is veryly fairly
    large 1/4" or more, you might want to put a layer of drywall tape,
    similar to what you would do when your taping a normal drywall joint.
    Hope this helps!
    

If it's a plastic box and it doesn't stick out too far, you can just shave it 
down level with the sheetrock.

Paul

Easy way:

Knock the box back into the wall cavity or rip it out as suits you, then 
install a new one using the boxes that are made to install into blind 
holes.  There seem to be two types; one has "ears" at the top and bottom 
that you snug up to the sheetrock with screws, the other has springs 
that compress as you slide the box into the hole then pop out on the 
back side of the sheetrock.  Both have a lip that holds the front to the 
wall while whatever is in back holds it in tight.  Neither one is a 
great fix, but they'll do the job.


Right way:

Punch out a section sheetrock large enough to let yo work, re-install
the box, put in a new section of sheetrock, tape, spackle, sand and
finish. 

I've tried both methods.  The right way is -- well -- the right way.  
The easy way will do the job if you're installing something that won't 
see a lot of use, like a phone jack or an outlet in a place that it 
won't be used much.
						>>>==>PStJTT

    Another possibility in both cases would be to put some kind of filler
    around the box, behind the outlet cover. For example, you can cut a
    rectangle 1/2" larger than the box on each side out of 1/8" plexiglass
    using a 30 degree angle on the cut. Then carefully cut an inner
    rectangle the size of the box out of this, leaving a frame to go around
    the box. Glue this to the sheetrock around the box, and paint it the
    same color as the wall. This will both cover the space around the
    outside, and fill out the wall to the edge of the box. Of course, this
    is a fair amount of work, and it will make the outlet look different
    than the others in the room, but it does look good and doesn't cost
    much. It is actually probably less work than tearing out and replacing
    the box, which can get pretty messy if the box is nailed into the
    stud.
    
    There are also such things as oversized outlet covers which accomplish
    basically the same thing, but in my opinion they are not as attractive. 

    - Ram

    
    	Get a bigger outlet cover
    				
    			       =Ralph=				
    	

    re: .11
    		That "super fast drill"  is a hand router with a router
    	bit that looks very much like a drill bit.  I tried the bit
    	in a hand drill and the results were acceptable.
    
    	- Bob

    
    
    	I would like to re-sheetrock a room but really don't want to
    rip the old stuff down. Can you apply sheetrock over sheetrock and
    if so here are my questions.
    
    	. Do you put strapping up
    
    	. How does the new sheetrock affect trim around
    	  windows and such and how do you handle this.
    
    	. Any ideas on how to handle the 1/2" bulge where
    	  the new ceiling meets the existing one. I don't
    	  want to due the hallway ceiling also.
    
    	-Steve-
    

> Can you apply sheetrock over sheetrock 
    
    Yes.
    
> Do you put strapping up

    Shouldn't be necessary if the walls are reasonably true, and if
    you can locate the joists (try a StudSensor, or whatever they're
    called, and mark the centers on the ceiling before you put up the
    new sheets). You could also use paneling adhesive to make a tighter
    bond and reduce the number of nails or screws you would have to
    put, but I probably wouldn't bother.

> How does the new sheetrock affect trim around
> windows and such and how do you handle this.

    There are two ways to handle this. The preferred way would be to
    remove all of the trim, add strips to extend the door jambs and
    window frames out to the level of the new wall surface, and put
    the trim back on after the wall is up. The short cut way is to apply
    the sheetrock around the trim, and either plaster over the joints
    or apply quarter-round moldings to cover the edges. This is actually
    a somewhat self-defeating "short cut", because it ruins the intended
    appearance of the moldings, and it's probably just as much work
    to get the finish to look nice as it would be to just remove all
    of the moldings in the first place. But I've seen a lot of people
    do it this way, so I just thought I'd give you both points of view.    

> Any ideas on how to handle the 1/2" bulge where
> the new ceiling meets the existing one. I don't
> want to due the hallway ceiling also.

    Probably the most unobtrusive thing would be to get a piece of 1/2"
    quarter round and apply it at the edge of the sheetrock. You can
    plaster up to this and it will give a reasonably smooth transition
    between the two surfaces.    

    I put 1 1/4" pine nosing around the trim when I strapped and put
    up new sheetrock.  The result was very clean and nice.  One might
    not need 1 1/4" if there isn't strapping though.
    
    dcb
    

    
    Re:  sheetrocking over sheetrock...
    
    	we just finished remodeling our house and chose to rip out the
    old sheetrock... it was messy, but we are glad we did it for the
    following reasons: 
    
    1 - the transition to other surfaces was easier
    2 - no worries about trim, light fixtures, electrical outlets,etc
    3 - the previous wall texture was heavy and we would have had bumps
        and ridges showing thru
    4 - the previous stuff was nailed on and we wanted to use screws...
        the screw would have to be a 1/2 longer (incidently we recommend
        screws...much more secure and easy to remove if you goof)
    5 - the previous stuff was not shimmed out well so the walls were
        a bit wavy
    6 - because the walls were bare we got to remove a skeleton of a
        mouse that got trapped, insulate some more and add a couple
        more electrical outlets
    
    to take off the old stuff we hit the wall with a crowbar and (with
    gloved hands) ripped the pieces off the wall...sometimes we got
    some big pieces.  we thru the pieces out the window into the back
    of the pickup truck.
    
    hope this helps
    
    	sherry

    I HAVE RECENTLY RECEIVED TWO ESTIMATES FOR PUTTING UP 
    
    WALLBOARD IN MY HOUSE. THE ONE FOR BLUEBOARD IS 200 MORE THAN 
    
    SHEET ROCK. IS IT WORTH THE DIFFERENCE? WHAT ARE THE ADVANTAGES/
    
    DISADVANTGES OF EACH. ALL THE INSTALLATION WILL BE IN AREAS
    
    WHERE MOISTURE IS NOT A PROBLEM. (NO BATHROOMS)
    

Sheetrock, at least in this area (Eastern Mass - So.  N.H.), is plaster between
thick paper and reacts poorly to water - it slowly dissolves.  It is not a good
choice for bathroom walls - even behind tiles.

Blueboard, again in this area,  is  concrete between water RESISTANT paper.  It
is often used as wallboard all  over  a  house  and used to be the wallboard of
choice for bathrooms.   The  concrete will not dissolve in water.  Blueboard is
gawd-awful heavy!!

If  you  were putting in a bathroom, you would use something called WONDERBOARD
around  the  tub  and/or  shower.    It  is  an  epoxy  board that is virtually
impervious to water (and most anything else).

I have used sheetrock for years (and years) for non-moisture problem walls  and
ceilings;   for outer walls, I use two layers of 1/2" (first layer  horizontal,
second  layer  verticle)  and for inner walls I use one layer of 5/8" verticle.
For  ceilings  I use one layer of 5/8".  Use ONLY the black screww-nails and  a
power screw driver.    Regular  nails  will pop out over time whereas the screw
nails will not.

I  have  never  had  situation  where Blueboard would  have  been  better  than
Sheetrock - other than moisture areas.  Indeed, I have a remodeled basement (4'
below  level)  that has mostly wallpapered sheetrock walls - no  problems  with
moisture.

All things considered, if I were to do a room or  house  today,  I  would pay a
crew to come in and sheetrock, tape and skim coat with plaster.   I have seen a
whole house done in two days - the skim coat was done the second day.  

Dave

    As I understand it, blueboard is used specifically when the surface
    is to be plastered over. In bathrooms, where there is a high moisture
    environment, use Greenboard (don't know if that is its official
    name) but the paper face is definitely a green color.
    
    Dave
    

    I have heard several contracters refer to the greenboard as waterseal.
    

Why do I feel we've had this conversation before?  Because we have, in dozens
of notes.

From the sounds of .1, I think he's confused.  Blueboard and Sheetrock are
virtually identical except for the paper, the latter which is used when one
wants to put a skincoat of plaster over it.  It is definately NO heavier than
sheetrock.

btw - I don't belive either has any form of concrete/cement in them.  IN fact,
they are commonly referred to as gypsum board.  I'm not sure of the exact 
makeup of gypsum, but I don't think it's in any way related to cement.

-mark

    I'm not exactly sure of the makeup of gypsum either, but its some
    kind of mineral with a lot of calcium.  Sheetrock and cement are
    sort of related in that they share a common ingredient: gypsum.
    
    You find gypsum in both portland cement and sheetrock.  I think
    its the calcium that makes both products excellent eye irritants
    when in powder form.
    

>From the sounds of .1, I think he's confused.  Blueboard and Sheetrock are
>virtually identical except for the paper, the latter which is used when one
					       ~~~~~~
>wants to put a skincoat of plaster over it.  It is definately NO heavier than
>sheetrock.

	To keep from further confusing him, Mark, I think you meant "former"
 up there.  Skimcoat plaster goes over blueboard, sheetrock is its own finish
 wall.

	Just tryin' to help....				--Mike

    I agree the only difference in sheetrock, blueboard, and greenboard
    is the paper. All three are installed the same.
    
    Sheetrock reuires taping the seems before painting.
    
    Blueboard is more absorbent and requires an entire skim coat of
    plaster after taping. It leaves a harder final surface.
    
    Greenboard is water resistant.
    
    Wonderbord is "waterproof", made of a different substance and a
    little more difficult to install.
    

    FYI - If you plan on plastering over blueboard or greenboard, hang
    the sheets horizontally.  Otherwise, most (if not all) plasterers
    will not guarantee their work if they do it at all.
    
    					Steve

    RE .8
    
    Mind explaining why horizontal is better than vertical?  Do you
    mean:
                                +-------+
    	+---------------+	|  not	|
    	|	      	|	| this	|
    	| this way	|	|  way	|
    	|		|	|	|
    	+---------------+	|	|
				+-------+
    
    -al

    Re: .9
    
    You're diagram is correct.  As it was explained to me, there shouldn't
    be a seam running from ceiling to floor; something about strength
    of joint wearing over time.  I didn't mention in my earlier reply 
    that the first sheet should be cut in half (4'X4') and hung.  Then
    hang a full sheet below this, resulting in a staggered pattern.
    
    Keep in mind that this is not necessary when hanging sheetrock
    for a drywall finish.
    
    					Steve

    
    	They just did 3 rooms at my neighbors house and all the blue
    board was installed vertically by a perfesonal outfit, Todd something
    out of Leominster.
    		-Steve-
    

    
    If you use 12ft blueboard, then horizontal make sense. You will
    end up with fewer seams. Most new construction I've seen is done
    this way.
    
    Steve

    Thanks for the help so far.
    
    And  back to the original question. Is there anything about
    blueboard/plaster that makes it worth 200 more than sheetrock/tape?
    
    I was told bt the contractor the blueboard/plaster can be done faster.
    
    But is it $200 faster?
        
    
    

>    If you use 12ft blueboard, then horizontal make sense. You will
>    end up with fewer seams. Most new construction I've seen is done
>    this way.

It's not so much that the total length of seams are fewer, but that it's much 
easier to tape.  When the seams are vertical on an 8' wall, it's very difficult 
to tape the seam from top to bottom.  If you're standing on the ground you can't
reach the top, if you're standing on a ladder you can't reach the bottom.  You 
have to do the seam while climbing a ladder, which doesn't make for smooth 
seams.  When you run the seam horizontally, you have one long seam 4' above the
floor (just about arm height), which you can do while walking along it, and
some number of 4' vertical seams, each of which can be done from one position,
either on the floor or on a ladder.  Much easier.

Of course most rock hangers have been told to do it this way, but not why.  If
there's a section of wall less than 4' long, rather than put in one, seamless
piece vertically, they'll still put in two horizontal sheets. 

Paul

If it would only cost you $200 more to go with the skim coat, by all means do 
so.  Skim coats looks FAR better than plain ol' jointing compound.  They don't
show nail heads or joints and are VERY smooth.  If you ever want to wallpaper
over them or remove wallpaper, it's a breeze.  Most of the better built homes
go with skimcoating and although I'm sure you're not thinking about selling
you house, it's a nice feature.

-mark

    If done right, skim coat is extremely hard, durable, and can't compare
    with standard drywall.  The house I grew up in (built in 1949?) has
    plastered walls (not sure what's underneath).  The surface is still
    hard and glass-smooth.  It's almost a shame to put wallpaper on this
    stuff, but, as previously mentioned, if you do, it's a breeze to remove
    later.

I can think of a couple of reasons for laying the 'drywall' horizontally...

1)  as mentioned, it's quicker to tape the horizontal seams...

2)  I imagine the plaster holds better over a horizontal seam then a vertical
    one; laths for plaster are horizontal.

3)  structurally, the wall is far more likely to  warp horizontally (and crack
    between vertical boards) then it is to warp vertically (and crack between
    horizontal boards) 

Jim.

>2)  I imagine the plaster holds better over a horizontal seam then a vertical
>    one; laths for plaster are horizontal.

    Wouldn't it be difficult to run the laths from floor to ceiling,
    16 inches would seem to give better support then 8'!
    
    			:-)
    
    mac

    However, if you run the sheets vertically you will have no end seams
    to tape, if the sheets can run clear from floor to ceiling.  Since
    the ends of sheetrock aren't tapered, I'd think getting a good joint
    would be lots harder.  (I can't tape a decent seam even on the tapered
    edges, so what do I know about it....)  Of course, if no wall is
    longer than 12' and you're willing to handle 4x12 sheets of sheetrock,
    then it doesn't matter.

re:.-1

Another good reason for skimcoating.  It doesn't matter if the ends aren't
tapered since you're not trying to get flush with the rest of the sheet.

-mark

    Let me lay you all straight. I was getting so confused from all
    the reply's you got I had to send this. I have 10 years past experience
    working for two drywall outfits before coming to DEC.
    If your estimate was only $200.00 higher for plaster for a whole
    house take it and run. If it for anything smaller its not much of
    a differce. Plaster will give you a much stronger wall than drywall.
    The blueboard that is used for plaster is 1/2 thick which is standard
    and the skim coat is approximately 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick that gives
    you a pretty solid wall.
    As for laying the board down that is the best way to go. It saves
    alot of time for the tapers and trowelers and again gives a much
    stronger wall. You hit all or most of the studs in the wall laying
    the sheet down, if you stand it up you hit only four studs. Never
    put corners together that causes bulging in the wall. Always separate
    your joints example      -----------      just like laying brick.
                             |         |
                       -----------------------        best of luck
                       |          |          |        Al
                       -----------------------
                                                        

re Note 235.12 by EXIT26::TURI:

>     I used a fiberglass tape and KERABOND to seal the joints.
>     Applying the tile to wonderboard with the kerabond was a easy and
>     gives the installer the feeling they're doing a job that is going
>     to last.
>     
>     I used plated wallboard screws to attach the wonder board. It takes
>     longer than nailing, but is much neater.
  

I am planning to tile the floor of my enclosed porch, and I'm considering using
Durock (sounds like a variant of wonderboard) between the sub-floor and the
tile instead of plywood.  One reason for considering this is that the porch is
my main entry during the winter, and snow, slush, and rain get tracked in and
in the cold it evaporates rather slowly.  So I want a relatively waterproof
tile application.  
    
I am also hoping for more rigidity than a plywood layer would provide.

(I'm also hoping that the tile plus Durock would add some "thermal mass" to
retain the considerable warmth of the sun through the early evening -- or is
this a silly thought?)

Some questions raised by the above note:

What are "plated wallboard screws" -- are they just ordinary wallboard screws?

How far apart should they be spaced?  The "usual" 6", as I would space them for
plywood?  Do the screws really go through the concrete?

What adhesive should I use for the tile?  What is "kerabond"?  Who sells it?

I was thinking of asking for recommendations of places with good prices for the
wonderboard/Durock.  Tile City wants $19.95 for a 3x5 sheet -- but in looking
through this file, that's better than any price anybody else has listed!  (I
need 12 sheets for this porch.)

Any other advice?

Bob

    The plated screws are your basic sheetrock screws.
    
    I put mine about six inches apart and at the seams.
    
    The "cement" that is used is made by several manufactures. Anyone
    who handles tiles will know what you are talking about. There is
    a latex additive that will waterproof the substrate.
    
    I would ask around to see it it is recommended for floor applications.
    It is not to be used in structual applications.
    
    Al Turi
    

The literature that I have recommends using mortar to patch up irregularities
in the wonderboard surface before laying the tile.  Can I do this with the
adhesive I'm using for the tile, and at the same time I lay the tile?  (The
adhesive is ColorTile's "System 200" portland cement based stuff.)
         
Bob
(who still can't believe that those sheetrock screws go through 1/2 inch of
cement :-})

I removed some ugly paneling from my family room wall.  Now I want to
paint the walls.  They're untreated sheetrock (no joint compound or
tape).  My question is, is taping and putting joint compound on the
walls something that a first time person should do?  If yes, any
tips, recommendations, would be appreciated.  If no, any suggestions on
who to call in the Acton, MA area?  The room is approx 16x24.  I'am
willing to give it a try but want it to look good too.

Thanks

	>My question is, is taping and putting joint compound on the
	>walls something that a first time person should do?

 Lots of us have done it...successfully even!  You can do it too!

 See note #652.0 - .13 for a few tips on handling sheetrock seams.

 Here's one more tip that I didn't see when I reviewed 652--

 Tape _every_ seam/joint, no matter how small it is.  If you don't, it will
 crack later


		Good luck				--Mike

Yes, you CAN do it.

But the odds are poor that you'll have FUN.

Seriously, it's an easy job to do, but takes time and patience to do well
- you need 3 coats of drywall compound, each thin, each smooth, etc.

Having done a good deal of this, I'd look at the earlier notes around getting
someone in to do it.

Dennis

PS: It's Messy - fine white dust.....

    Once again, not difficult just messy!  
    
    I suggest that you use the mesh/screen type sandpaper when sanding.  
    Typical paper gets clogged quickly.   This paper is specifically used 
    for sanding compound.
        
    Also, If you have a lot of walls to sand, consider a electric palm
    sander.  You don't develope muscles using it but it's much quicker
    than the manual sandpaper holder method.   The only problem is that 
    you must be careful not to over do it.  In other words, you can easily
    sand right down to the tape if you are not careful.                   
                                                                          
    Chip                                                                  
                                                                          

    I prefer using a sponge or facecloth for the first 2 coats.  Depending
    on how wet it is determines how much compound is removed.  NO DUST!
    
    The final coat has to be sanded.  The 'wet' method does not leave
    it smooth.  However, you can smooth the final coat using the sponge
    and then sand.

I've put down the wonderboard as underlayment to quarry tile, and I used
sheetrock screws (all the literature I read on the subject recommended
galvanized roofing nails for this, by the way).  One problem I have is that
none, or almost none, of the screw heads could be driven flush with the board.
The topmost part of the head sticks out, and no amount of torque manually or
mechanically applied can get them in any further.  Will this be a problem in
the laying of the tile?  I did a dry-fit laying of some tile, and the screw
heads definitely raise the level of some of the tiles enough for them to wobble
-- but this is without adhesive.

Bob

  Re: .-1

  It may be your technique.  (I'm assuming you used an electric drill to
  drive the screws.)  I asked a similar question (in DELNI::TOOLS I think)
  when I was driving 3" galvanized screws through PT 2x stock.  I had a real
  hard time just driving them, let alone countersinking them.  I first had
  to develop a bit of expertise (i.e. I got better as I went along).  A key
  element of this phase was patience - I wanted to drive them faster than
  I should.
  One trick someone shared really helped.  Drive the screw in till it's flush
  or almost flush.  Then back it out!  Just a couple revolutions or so.  Then
  drive again.  Repeat if necessary.  This almost always worked.  (I did go
  through a few Phillips bits though, but they're pretty inexpensive.)
  I was using a conventional 3/8" variable speed reversible drill.

    Use a lubricant on the screw.
    
    I keep a jar of vaseline petroleum jelly in my toolbox.
    Don't use soap!  It'll rust.

re Note 235.17 by GLIVET::RECKARD:

>   One trick someone shared really helped.  Drive the screw in till it's flush
>   or almost flush.  Then back it out!  Just a couple revolutions or so.  Then
>   drive again.  Repeat if necessary.  

I tried this -- it never worked.  It seemed as if the only screws to go flush
were ones that went into fractured or void places in the board.  (A couple of
times the head broke off the screw, but that wasn't common.)

By the way, I was using a 3/8" VSR screwdriver-drill, but I also tried a 1/4"
drive socket handle with a phillips bit, and was unable to budge these screws!

I'll have to try the lubrication tip in .18 -- I have done that in the past
with long screws that bound before reaching the head, but I never had that
problem in this case.

I've also noticed that different brands of wonderboard have differing degrees
of "hardness".  One sheet I got is flexible -- it bends under its own weight
(it is the "durock" brand).  The other sheets are much stiffer, and don't bend
appreciably under their own weight.  They are a "generic" wonderboard.

Thanks,
Bob

    
    My husband put up sheetrock and I did taping and compounding on
    many walls and a few ceilings.  The first room was so bad we had
    to put wallpaper up. Then my husband got better at sheerocking and
    I got better at taping,etc.  One of the best tips I got, which was
    from a wallpaperer, was to use a wet but not dripping towel or face
    cloth to sand the compound instead of using sandpaper.  I agree
    with .4 that you do need to use the sandpaper on the final coat
    but at this stage you are really only fine tuning it so there isn't
    the kind of dust you get on coats 1 and 2.  I also agree you need
    to put compound on thin and make sure the tape has no bulges.
    
    After renovating both apartments of a two family, we moved out,
    then sold it.  All the projects were wonderful experiences. We
    learned which jobs we'd pay people for in the future. The sheetrock
    job is one we'll pay someone to do for our new addition in our present
    house.  I'm glad I know how to do it, but I don't want to do it again.

   
    Kathy 

    
    
    	I did alot of sheetrocking in the past and always bad bad luck
    with my finish trying wet sanding, screens and fast drying putty.
    When I built my addition I went to Makis and bought all the same
    stuff that the pros use. Swivel head pole sander, corner trowels
    and a hand sander. The hand sander did almost all the work. It takes
    special sand paper with edges that fold over the edge of the sander
    to get into the corners. I used 80 grit sandpaper and it took me
    about 10 minutes to sand an 8' joint. Everything came out perfect
    and is smooth as glass. I was going to wallpaper because I thought
    I would have to but it came out so good I put 2 coats of flat wall
    and ceiling paint on. I think I attribute my success to that special
    hand sander with 80 grit paper. My friends have used the same stuff
    I did and have had the same success.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    re. .16 thru .19
    
    	I did my bathroom 2 years ago with 'WONDERBOARD' brand.  I did
    countersink all the screw heads except for just one which I missed.
    When applying the tile I noticed it as I put the mastic, (ColorTile
    System 2000), up but figured the mastic would level it all out.
    WRONG!!  To this day that single uneven tile is the first thing
    "I" notice everynite when I get into the shower.  Nobody else seems
    to notice but it drives me crazy!
    
    	My brother-in-law did his 'countersinking' by giving each future
    screw location a sharp rap with the ball end of a ballpeen hammer.
    Just enough to fracture the top layer of the wonderboard.  The screws
    would then seat flush.  I didn't think much of this technique so
    I would put up the entire sheet then go back over it removeing each
    screw one at a time and reaming the hole with my case hardend phillips
    bit.  Crude, yes, but it worked well.  Also takes alot of time doing
    each screw twice.
    
    	The soap trick didn't work and I busted a lot of screw heads
    off trying the run-it-in-twice trick.  (GAWD but I hate doing
    bathrooms!)  At any rate - YES! - by all means countersink your
    screws.
    
    							Lee

	I agree with -.1 (and as I said in 652.8)-- Don't wet sand the final
coat!  If you paint later (especially a darker gloss or semi-gloss), the seams
standout like sore thumbs, no matter how perfect they are.  The reason is the
difference in texture between the perfectly smooth seam and the slightly
textured sheetrock paper.  I can show you the evidence in the first room I did.
Dry sanding gives the seam the approximate texture as the paper and if the
seam is well done, you can't pick it out no matter what the lighting. 

	What is done on the first and second coats really doesn't matter...do
whatever is easier.

	FWIW....
							--Mike

  Re: .7

  >The reason is the difference in texture between the perfectly smooth
  >seam and the slightly textured sheetrock paper. 

  Right, and this is why you should always prime/seal the sheetrock before
  painting.  The object is to provide a uniform surface for the paint.

  JP

    Yes, counter sink the hole location before you put the screw in.
    That's the way my brother did his and it worked out fine.
    
    By the way... are you (COLORS::FLEISCHER) using the wonder board
    on a wall or a floor? Every time that I've seen it used was on a
    wall, never on a floor. I seems to me that it's too brittle to be
    used on a floor, but if it works, hey, who am I to argue.

    Charly

re Note 235.21 by CHART::CBUSKY:

>     By the way... are you (COLORS::FLEISCHER) using the wonder board
>     on a wall or a floor? Every time that I've seen it used was on a
>     wall, never on a floor. I seems to me that it's too brittle to be
>     used on a floor, but if it works, hey, who am I to argue.

It's on a floor -- over thick sub-flooring.

It would seem to be less brittle than, say, tile.

Bob

    It's been several months since I hung my sheetrock.  I recently
    noticed that some of the sheetrock screws are starting to protrude
    through the sheetrock.  Any idea why this is happening (rust?) and 
    how I can prevent this from happening on future projects?

    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Chip    

    If their rusting, then I'd investigate a water problem on the other
    side of the sheetrock (sometimes latex paint will cause alittle
    rust on the screws if they were not properly counter sank and mudded
    over). Sometimes the screws will backout because they did not hit
    the stud, or perhaps just missed. To correct this all you do is
    back them out and restall them alittle more to the side, up or down,
    etc., so they are solidly anchored. Don't bang them back it because
    they'll just come back out later on.
    
    Bill D.
    

    
    I'm just pointing out the obvious, but make sure you use DRYWALL
    NAILS.  The shaft of the nail is coarse to help prevent the nail
    from working its way out.
    
    Steve
    

    DON'T USE NAILS, Sheetrock SCREWS are 1000 times better than drywall
    nails. 
    
    If the author of the base note really did use screws and they are
    popping out, than chances are you missed the stud as suggested earlier
    or they weren't screwed in tight enough. Either relocate the screw to
    hit the stud or if the problem is the later then screw it in tighter or
    use a longer screw. 
    
    Charly

    RE: .0
    
    	You said screws, but after reading you note a couple of times,
    	it sure sounds like you are tlaking about drywall nails.
    
    Drywall nails, while they will hold up drywall infinitely better
    than regular nails do on occasion work loose.  I believe that this
    is usually caused by the swelling and shrinking of the wood into
    which it was nailed.  (This, of course, assumes that it did make
    it into a stud, and not just the sheetrock.)
    
    Drywall screws, on the other hand are infinitely better than drywall
    nails for holding things in place.  Their major drawback is that
    they are more time consuming to put in place; even will a drywall
    screw gun.  (Personally, I wouldn't use anything else but drywall
    screws.)
    
    Since you have to do something about the protruding heads any way,
    you might consider scraping off the head and see if it is smooth
    (indicating a nail of some sort) or if it has the traditional cross
    associated with phillips drive fasteners.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    - Mark

    I definitely used sheet rock screws.   I'm sure it was a matter
    of me missing the stud.  Well, I'll just pull them out and apply
    glue to the ripped wallpaper.  I'll be sure to pull out "misses"
    in the the future.
    
    Thanks!

    Does joint compound go bad?  I've got about a 1 gallon bucket in
    my basement left by the previous owner.  If I use it will it cause
    problems?  It looks ok....I  think.

    Most compound I have used (and I have used about 25-30 gallons)
    says on it's label that the 'shelf life' is 11 months. I assume
    that after that period of time, the consistancy goes bad. You could
    probably use it, but it would not be very smotth and very tough
    to work with.
    
    My recommendation: Dump it! (It only $7-8 per 5 gallon pail...)
    
    Mark
    

    
    
    	If you read the directions on the pail ot will tell you to save
    the thin plastic that covers the compond then put alittle water
    in after use and dump it before using again. I have found that I
    get small hard junks in the compond after leaving it for about 4
    months. It really sucks when you have a real good stroke going and
    you come across one of these little rocks !
    	
    	Dump it.
    
    	-Steve-

Dump it. 

I recently repaired a ceiling using an almost-full pail of compound a
little over a year old. Even though I had been careful to get the lid
on tight and had tried to get all the excess compound off the sides of
the pail before storing, I still had a lot of flakes and chunks fall
off into the good stuff. After trying to remove the top inch or so to
get off the crumblies and partially dried stuff, there were still a
lot of imperfections. 

Also, the consistency wasn't nearly the same. Smoothing was much more 
difficult with a previously opened pail.

John H.

    What about gaps between abutting sheets of drywall?  Should they
    be filled before taping or do you just tape and compound over the
    gaps?  I made a couple of errors in cutting peices and have some
    gaps that are maybe 1/8th" or so.
    
    George

    1/8" gap is no problem - 1/4" and it starts getting hairy.  Just
    put the mud on the seam, run the paper down over it, and then smooth
    it out.  some of the excess mud under the paper will fill in the
    small gap.  
    
    If it is a big gap, then you have a problem, because the mud compresses
    as it dries - that is why you have to do big spots (holes, for example)
    in layers, with just a little at a time, else it just cracks when
    it dries.  Plaster of Paris on the other hand expands when it dries,
    which is why you plaster holes when you repair them.
    

It looks like I'm getting myself into some serious wall patching.  I'm ripping
out doors, windows and pieces of ceilings.  Everything is skim-coated.

What I'm trying to figure out is how easy will it be to get someone to patch.
For example, if I remove a window, can it be easily patched?  Should I remove 
the blueboard from ceiling to floor?  Will the joints stay closed?  How about
inside corners?  I have a wall 4 feet wide with a missing window.  Should I
simply strip the entire wall?

-mark

    I took out two windows and simply nailed studs in the appropriate
    places and then sheetrocked and taped the seams and they came out
    excellent. I did not tear out any original sheetrock mainly because
    the walls are rocklathe and are almost an inch thick and it would
    have been messy. I did have to "shim" the half inch sheetrock out
    a bit to make up the difference though. The key is in the taping
    of the seams,ie, if you take the time you can really do wonders
    with the compound and taper it out nice so you can't really notice
    the "patch"......As far as inside corners go just treat them like
    any other sheetrock/taping job.
    
    Good luck........

    I find that this also depends on how visually critical the surface 
    will be after you put your final covering on it.  For example, if you
    are repairing a hole in the ceiling it is very difficult to get
    the joints not to show because a) you are probably only painting over it
    and b) if you have a ceiling light, any bumps are lit obliquely
    and will be exaggerated. 
    
    For walls, though, it's easier to work out a nice flat join, as
    .1 pointed out. It is sometimes difficult to tell when the joint 
    is *really* flush, since the combination of colors and 
    textures (the wallboard, tape, and spackle)  can fool your eyes - 
    I only see my mistakes after painting.  One trick I use 
    to remedy this situation is to duplicate the "ceiling" situation and 
    place a light very close to the wall surface, so it shines across the 
    repair joint, exaggerating any bumps with shadows.
    
    As far as replacing more than the small hole, I would say that 
    if it's on the ceiling near a light source and there's not too
    much further to go to reach a corner, go for it - it won't be 
    that much extra effort or expense.  I have an example in my kitchen
    of where I wish I had done this - the repair stands out much more
    at night than in daylight.
    
    As far as walls go, if it's in the middle of a wide expanse of wall 
    in the line of vision, you might want to consider going
    floor-to-ceiling, or into corners that are not too far away. 
    Otherwise, careful taping ought to do the trick.
    

    mp

What's the difference between using 'tape' (like masking tape) or the 
webbed tape (kinda looks like fiberglass mesh in tape form)??

How do I know when to use which?

Brad.

    re: .20
    
    You don't really mean masking tape, do you?
    
    The fiberglass is necessary if you are going to skim coat since
    you don't have to compound under it. Paper tape is thinner so if
    you are just compounding you don't have to build up as high a joint.
    One trick with paper tape is that the compound in which the tape
    is bedded must be a thin coat, otherwise you'll get bubbles in the
    tape. Therefore, if you are covering a wide, 1/4" or greater, gap,
    you need to fill it and let it dry before putting on the tape.
    
    Alan

Maybe a little clarification might help.  As I said before, this is skim coat,
not jointing compound.

I too have patched sheet rock with reasonable success.  I've always sanded away
part of the sheetrock to form a valley for the tape and jointing compound.  It
works real well.

However, with skim coat, the surface is letterally as hard as nails.  You can't
really sand it (I don't think).  If you were to try taping, you'd have a mound 
where the tape covers the old surface, wouldn't you?

-mark

I've only taped once and promise to never do it again (until next time...).
Anyhow, someone suggested the webbed stuff since you don't have to worry about
air bubbles under it.  I agree completely.

Quite frankly, I have no idea why anyone would ever want to use tape.  We're 
only talking a couple of bucks.  On one roll I did a 14X20 room with 14 foot
cathedral ceilings, lent the tape to a friend to do a fairly large family room
in his basement and still have a bunch left.

-mark

    Obviously if you want the "original" skim coat you'll have to skim
    the patch with plaster either by you or by a plasterer. A plasterer
    will put mesh tape (probably the self-adhesive kind) on the joints
    and then a thin coat of plaster.
    
    And yes your right, a mound will form from the tape being on the
    original wall. But again you have to keep tapering the compoud out
    using a wider trowel until it looks good. This is treated like a
    "but joint" or "end to end" joint that you normally get when you
    sheetrock. It just takes patience.
    
    
    Bob
    

    
    	I used the Fiberglas tape and found it better for the following
    reasons.  First I could put it down without having to set it into
    the joint compound like the paper tape.  This was faster and less
    of a mess.  Second, because it could be put down before the joint compound
    my wife was laying down the tape as I was mudding the seams.  This
    was much easier. I agree with Mark that the cost is not an issue.
    The paper tape was $3 per roll while the Fiberglas was about $8.
    
    					=Ralph=

    What should the nail spacing be on walls and ceilings given 16"
    centers?  If using screws what should the spacing be?
    

    > What should the nail spacing be on walls and ceilings given 16"
    > centers?  If using screws what should the spacing be?
    
    7" on ceilings and 8" on walls for nails.
    12" on ceilings and 16" on walls for screws.
    

    From "Modern Carpentry" by Willis H. Wagner.
    

    Does anyone know the name of the router bit used for cutting 
    sheetrock?  The carpenter that recently hung sheetrock for me used
    a router to cut around switch/outlet boxes, door opening, etc. 
    
    Was this his own invention or is there a bit available specifically
    for this function?  It sure was quicker and neater than using a 
    keyhole saw. 
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Chip

    I've seen sheet rockers use a small, hand size router to do all
    the cutter around outlets and the such.
    
    I suspect it's a standard bit available wherever router bits are
    sold.
    
    You're right, it's really quick, and it's especially good for overhead
    work.
    
    BC
    

    Wouldn't the router blow mucho dust?
    The standard knife drawing the rectangle and an X inside should be OK.

    RE 1:  I noticed that the router WAS smaller than the standard
    size.  Hopefully, I won't have to invest in a "mini" router.  
    I'm planning to visit a hardware store to inquire about the bit
    but I thought it would help if I knew more about it before hand.
    I'll be sure to provide specifications about the bit once/if I 
    find it.
    
    RE 2:  The dust from the router is no worse than the dust generated
    from sanding joint compound!  In fact, sanding is worse.   
    
    Speed and accuracy is the main advantage to using the router.  
    The installer punched a hole where the outlet/switch box was located
    (with a key saw), hung the sheetrock, then stuck the router bit
    in the hole and zipped around the box, using the box as a guide.
    

    I wonder how long the router bearings last, operating in such an
    abrasive dust cloud all the time.  

>    I wonder how long the router bearings last, operating in such an
>    abrasive dust cloud all the time.  

Probably not very long, but a contractor could burn out one on every job and 
still save money, they save so much time.  If I were doing it, I'd go buy the 
cheapest router I could find at Bradlees or something - even a junk router 
should last long enough to finish your job, and I wouldn't want to subject a 
good router to that abuse.

And I think the bit they use is simply a 1/16" drill bit - but the question is 
still where do you get a collet to reduce from 1/4" to 1/16"?  I don't know.

One more thing - don't bother to waste time cutting a starting hole with a 
keysaw - just plunge the bit through.

Paul

    	I don't think they use a router per say I think it's more like
    a 'Dremel' tool. If a person wanted to be real fast he could even
    use a cordless Dremel.
    
    				...Dave
    

    The tool is available from ace-7-corners hardware.  Porter Cable
    makes one - it's about $125! - but it's typical P/C quality - well
    sealed against dust - the pro sheetrockers say it lasts many, many,
    jobs.
    
    The bit is a not a drill bit, although it looks like it from a
    distance, it has a sharp point in order to get a fast, clean, plunge
    cut, and has a side-cutting body.  The dust generated is not all
    that bad.
    
    You can also grip it with one hand.  I would think that trying such
    a bit in a conventional router would be very tiring and awkward
    - not to mention the fact that you'd need probably a 1/8" collet,
    which is nonstandard. 
    

    Eh?  This is mechanization gone insane!
    
    I can cut a perfect outlet hole with a cheap keyhole saw handle
    and a 6-8" pointed blade in about 45 seconds.  The small amount
    of dust (well, small for a sheetrock job...) is broadcast only
    by gravity, not flung around the room.  No pilot hole is needed
    if the blade is stiff and has a sharp point.  No extension cord
    is needed, either.
    
    /Al
    

    
    I am finishing my basement and just put up the sheetrocks.
    I don't want to spend time to tape and patch the drywall.
    Instead, I plan to put up wall panels.  My question is, is
    this a good way to do it?
    
    I searched all in this conference and didn't find anything about
    wall panels.   May be it is too simple and easy to do!
    
    Anyway, how to put up wall panels to draywall?
    Use nail or adhensive?
    Any comments are welcome!
    Thanks
    
    Jason  

    You did it the right way so far.  Panelling is good on sheetrock.
    
    
    
    		NAIL IT !!
    
    If you ever (or the boss changes the color scheme) decide to remove
    it, if you have used adhesive then you will be replacing all the
    sheetrock at the same time.  This will also allow you to remove
    a piece temporarily say for some new electrical wiring, muck with
    the sheetrock, replace the panelling and no-ones the wiser.
    
    Glue it up and you is stuck!

    Re .1 is correct about nailing only if you want to get the panelling
    off some day. Depending on the room and if your studs (or firring
    strip ) are 16" oc, the nails may not fall in the black strips on
    the panelling. When I did a family room, I glued and nailed so the
    panelling is really solid. At the cost of good panelling, I didn't
    plan to change it in the near future. One point to check though
    is if the proposed panelling can be installed on walls below grade,
    although with the way .0 built the sheetrock walls first doesn't
    sound like much of a problem.
    
    Eric

    
    If you nail, just make sure you hit the studs that the sheetrock
    is on. Sheetrock alone won't hold the nails and they WILL come loose.
    
    
    
    
    
    Bob

    I want to use drywall screws to attach the balasters to my deck,
    My question is, will they rust?? I think using the screws would
    make the railing alot stronger, and I don't really want to go
    looking for stainless steel screws..
    
    
    Royce

    The drywall screws will rust.  A good alterative to stainless are
    the galvanized, hardened exterior screws.  They hold up very well,
    and a good screw gun can put them in without pilot holes.  
    
    Prices vary quite a bit.  If you buy a one pound box, it can be
    $5-6 (6 cents a screw for 3" long).
    
    Some places (like Wickes in Acton) sell them loose.  About $4 per
    pound, but you actually have to weigh them and bag them yourself. 8-)
    
    Bob
    

    Ditto to .1.  You can get what amount to galvanized drywall screws
    though (what I think .1 is talking about), and those ought to be
    fine.

    
    	I think what your looking for is called a DECK SCREW. Its
    identical to a drywall screw but is cadmium?? plated, cost is
    about the same. I'm in Colorado so I can't help you with a store.
    
    
    

    I used regular drywall screws that have a black coating on them
    for the ballusters on my deck and they worked fine. I've never seen
    drywall screws that did not have some kind of coating on them to
    prevent rust. I would think drywall screws should have a coating
    on them because joint compound and especially plaster have a certain
    amount of water in them which would cause rusting.
    
    
    Bob
     
     

    
    	I put together some temporary exterior stairs with drywall
    screws.  To date, they've gone through one winter, numerous
    rainstorms, and the humidity of summer without rusting.  Your
    mileage may vary.

    re -1:
    
    Milage definetely varies.  There must be some significant differences
    in various makes of drywall screws.  I used some about 3 years ago
    to make some hangers underneath my deck (they are protected quite
    well) and the heads have rusted.  That's why I sounded so certain
    in my first reply.  As usual, I'm not as certain after reading
    HOME_WORK. 8-)  
       
    If the deck will be stained, the stain might also add additional
    protection from rust.
    
    I don't know how to tell which make of screw will stand up better.
    If you want to err on the safe side, use the galvanized.
    
    Bob
                  

    	
    	One comment on the galvanized screws. Even they will rust if
    you scrape off the coating. I used them extensivly to put up my
    deck railing and put down my stair treds. In one years time, a lot
    of them have started rusting. Most of the rusty ones are those that
    had the coating scraped off due to the screw gun bit getting a few
    turns in after the screw it self had stoped (ie stripping).
    	I did find that the electro-plated screws hold up better than
    the dipped ones.
    
    		...Dave  Who used about 1500 screws to build my deck.
    
    

    I've had puddles in the basement from various things (leak in bulk
    head, overflowing dehumidifier pan, etc.), and these have occasionally
    cause parts of the un-finished wallboard to get discolored, mildewed,
    etc.  I plan to finish the finishing job at some point, so I don't want
    the wallboard to be damaged.  Does the water weaken the board?  Is
    there some corrective action I should take, other than just letting it
    dry thoroughly before doing any finishing work?
    
    Thanks.
    -pd

    
    	Well, if it's a large area you may want to consider replac-
    	ing it, but for small spots, you might want to try varnish-
    	ing the area.  I don't know for sure if it would work, but
    	I suspect that if you can get enough of it absorbed, it
    	would harden the area quite a bit.  There'd be no flexib-
    	ility though, so one good thump might crack it.

    How come dry wall screws don't rust through on a wall after
    joint compound has been applied?  I would imagine that there
    is some water in the compound to cause a reaction.

    Mike

	How about  brass?    Bought in quantity, they shouldn't break the
	bank.  Also they are more readily available than SS wood screws.

    RE: .9
    
    	Brass is also much softer than stainless steel.  You could probably
    	use brass if you were using a very soft wood for the deck (like
    	redwood), but in most woods you'd have to drill pilot holes
    	to keep from shearing the screws.
    
    - Mark

You don't have to go looking for stainless screws.  Trend-lines carries them.  
There are several of the stores around - I know of the ones in Nashua and 
Salem, there are at least half a dozen more in the Boston area.  Their main 
office is in Chelsea - call there to find where their other outlets are.

Paul

    Re: Brass.  I wouldn't use them for seriously loaded joint.  Too
    soft.
    
    Re: Regular drywall screws.   Lot of people are using these as a
    fastening panacea but you have to watch it.  They are very brittle
    and exhibit fair-to-POOR performance under a shearing load.  Just
    look how thin the shaft is between the threads and you'll understand
    why. 
    
    Those galvanized decking screws are not only galvanized, but they're
    thicker.

    Spags has em. The brand name is Challenger. By the box, not the
    pound. They have a good selection of sizes. They are deck screws
    not sheetrock screws. Thicker shaft, less threads per inch and
    deeper threads than normal sheetrock screws. They are HDG not
    plated.
    
    						Chris
    

    Thanks for all the input, Grossmans now sells "all weather" drywall
    screws, these are just plain old drywall screws that have been
    galvanized, they are on the expensive side $18 per a box of 500
    (2 1/2" long), but they worked nicely attaching the ballisters to
    my deck...
    
    
    
    
  
    Royce

	Speaking of nails and screws, which are better to use??

Brad.

    Screws are better by far.  They don't pop out, hold stronger, can
    be removed if necessary and leave a smaller dimple in the surface
    to patch over.
    				Steve

    screws......natch!

    Yes, screws are better, but if you have a large amount of rock to
    hang I think you will prefer the nails.  They make the job faster.
     You should also be using glue behind the sheetrock.  The nails
    or screws are really only to hold the sheetrock up until the glue
    has time to set.  The glue should be doing the majority of the holding.
    
    Ed..
    

Huh?  I've heard of using glue to attach subfloor to joists, and to attach 
industrial-waste panelling to studs, but never drywall to studs.  Anybody 
else?

And I suspect that the speed of installing nails vs. screws depends mostly
on what you're used to, and whether you use a real screwgun.

Useless anecdotal evidence:  the pros that put up blueboard in my house two 
years ago used both screws and nails, and no glue.

    Having hung a fair amount of rock, I've never heard of using glue
    before. As .15, I've used it for panelling and sub-floor but never
    dry-wall.
    
    Nails are cheaper and easier for smallish jobs. Screws work better
    and should be considered a requirement for ceilings, and in the
    off chance you are using (uck) metal studs, ala office buildings.
    
    I personally prefer screws for everything, but, the expense ofthe
    screw gun and screws means I mostly use nails.
    
    Alan

    My step-father is a sheetrocker by trade in New Jersey.  He showed
    me how to do it.  He was the one that said that you should use glue.
     The couple of times that I helped him on work at his house he glued
    the rock first.  I don't know if this is an old-timer's way or not.
     He is about 52 or thereabouts, so he has been doing this for quite
    a long time.
    
    As for nails and screws, I am still strongly of the opinion that
    with or without a screw gun the nails are faster.  As for the ceiling,
    I agree that screws are almost a must.
    
    Ed..
    

    
    Glue, Now thats interesting. I have some reservations though.
    
    Sheetrock consists of Paper/plaster of some sort/paper.
    
    	        | S |
       Paper -->| h |<-- Paper
                | e |
	        | e |
	        | t |
	        | r |
	        | o |
	        | c |
	        | k |
     

    What holds the plaster up is the paper. By just having glue on one
    one side the other sheet of paper isn't duing anything but just
    hanging there. By having screws or nails that sheet of paper is
    holding the plaster in place between itself and the other sheet.
    
    I'll stick with screws.
    
    Mike

    When installing  sheet  rock keep in mind take the more damage you do
    to the surface  paper the better your chance to have the dimples show
    up later.  
    
    I.E.  When the screws are put in,  the  paper around the screw should
    not be torn.  If you use a gun  it  should stop just before the paper
    is torn around the head of the screw.
    

    You should use screws regardless of the size of the job.  (read
    OPINION).
    
    The screw gun/drill works great.  The cost of the screws is not
    that much more than for nails, and you don't have to buy a screwgun
    if you already own a drill.  You can get the drill bit attachment
    for screwdriver bits.  You just have to be careful when you get
    close to the paper cover.

    This will be my last comments on this, since I don't want to continue
    dragging it down a rat hole.  BUT, I will not be convinced that
    almost anyone could put up rock faster using a drill and screws
    than the person using the nails.  In MOST cases, the nails have
    more than enough holding power.  If you are unsure, then you put
    in a couple of extras.  After all, they go in so fast that it doesn't
    take any time.
    
    The screw attachment to the drill almost never works easily for
    me.  It always seems to cam out.  I have tried the cordless screw
    driver.  It does ok to a certain depth and then doesn't seem to
    have enough torque to go the rest of the way.  Hence, I must use
    the old-fashioned manual screw driver.
    
    With the exception of the ceiling and certain specific instances
    (such as a wall patch on lathe), I will use nails for my sheetrock.
    This is just my opinion, I realize, so don't anyone get bothered
    by it, please.
    
    Just a side note.  It seems that many times we DIY'ers tend to overkill
    on our projects.  We do things extra good, sometimes more than is
    really necessary.
    
    Also, there must be a reason my step-father is able to charge more
    for doing a house only with screws.  If the customer requests it,
    he will accomodate, at a higher price.  It also takes him longer,
    as I understand it.
    
    Ed..
    

    RE: .21, I know that this subject can become a rathole, but having
    done much sheetrock work over the years, and I have found screws
    to be much quicker than nailing. I may be biased because I use a
    commercial sheetrock screw gun (The drill, phillips bit route is
    definitely slower). On the subject of rechargable screwdrivers/drills,
    I find that depending on how good the unit is, will definitely
    influence you on how you use it. I have a small Skil which is only
    good for light work, but I also have a Makita (sp?) 6093, that has
    virtually replaced my plug in drills. You get what you pay for
    ($15 vs $140).
    
    Eric

    Why is speed the most important factor when putting up sheetrock,
    unless you're a contractor doing someone else's house?
    
    If you're putting up sheetrock in your own house (which most people
    in this conference are doing), you should probably be more interested
    in which holds better (nails or screws) than whether it will take
    you 5 days or a half day more because you used screws.

    I don't believe screws are slower for somebody who is really used
    to using them.  The real production sheetrock hangers who use screws
    don't even bother to stop the screwgun between screws--just drop
    another one on the spinning tip, the magnet holds it in place, and
    zip! it's in, fast as they can pick the screws out of their apron.
    
    For what it's worth (not much) I've never heard of using glue to
    hang sheetrock, and personally see no need for it.

    A professional screw gun's tip is not spinning until its depressed.
    The clutch then engages and doesn't disengage until the stop is
    reached. This makes not stopping the gun between screws possible.
    
    Eric

    I worked for a carpenter from Oregon who mentioned that he glued
    sheetrock. His explanation was that it rained so much in Oregon
    that the frame doesn't dry out until well after the
    sheetrock has been hung and taped. When the frame does dry out the
    wood shrinks and the nails pop out.

    I just tried using a Dremel with a 1/8" straight router bit to
    cut through a 1" thick plaster and sheetrock wall while replacing
    windows.  It works great, although the special bits mentioned earlier
    might cut faster.  If you wield the Dremel with one hand and hold
    the nozzle of your shop vac next to the cut with the other, you
    have a near perfect dustless wall cutter.  Saved me a *lot* of
    cleanup time.
    
    It also works a lot better than a saw when you are cutting away
    plaster where you don't have room for a decent saw stroke.  I had
    to cut out a strip of plaster that was backed by the window headers
    (doubled 2x10s across a 36" gap!!!) so I could trim them up a little.
    
    /Dave

Having just started hanging some rock over the weekend, I can't believe I 
ever used nails.  please note I've only done one other job.

On the first job I noticed that I had to get a lot of nails into the ceiling and
occasionally, the rock would pull right through.  With screws, I can hold up one
end of a 4X8 sheet with as little as 2 or 3 screws (just long enough to reach 
down and grab some more.

I thing the big difference is that nailing literally crushes the sheet rock for
an area of well over 1/2".  In the case of screws the damage is far smaller and
I would assume therefore stronger.

-mark

I'm going to take a chance starting a new note of blueboard since there are
lots of notes on sheetrock and many questions are similar, however, some not.
I just started hanging over the weekend and somehow you don't really start to
form your questions until after the job starts.  Since I've got a LOT of rooms
to do, I figure there's still plenty of time to get some answers, so here goes.

	o	how long can blueboard sit before you skim coat it?  I heard
		someone suggest that any areas exposed to intense sunlight
		don't have that long a life and may have to be chemically
		treated to make the plaster stick.  If so, what about areas
		where the sun never shines?

	o	I know the seams should be tight, but what if they're not?  I've
		got some seams that are as much as 1/4" wide and one seam is
		closer to 3/4", but after getting the sucker up 10 feet I didn't
		feel like taking it down.

	o	what about tightness of fit on outlets?  I seem to be averaging
		aroud 1/8" but a few outlets are coming out closer to 1/4".  I'm
		just sort of assuming that one can goop in a bunch of plaster,
		but I'm only guessing.

	o	where my cathedral ceilings meet the walls, the rafters come
		just to the bottom of the wall top plate meaning there is
		nothing rigid behind the wall other than the vertical studs.
		I've been nailing blocks (2X4's split down the middle) but keep
		wondering if it's really necessary.  after all, there's nothing
		behind lots of the other seams/joints.

	o	how many screws are enough?  I get real paranoid doing ceilings
		and probably use many more than I need, but the peace of mind
		is worth it.  does anybody know for sure what the spacing should
		be?

-mark

    1) 3/4 is kind of a big gap, but probably no problem - the joints
    are taped with this sticky mesh stuff designed to handle expansion
    and contraction.  Plaster is MUCH harder than joint compound - the
    joint will be very strong.
    
    2) 1/4" at outlets is no problem. A wallplate is about 1" wider
    in both dimensions than a box.  That gives you 1/2" on either side.
    
    3) The rule of thumb on edge support is that one of the intersecting
    edges must have blocking behind.  Obviously if you can design the
    framing to wind up with nailing surfaces for both edges, so much
    the better, but even good professional builders won't bother to
    specifically add blocking just to have both edges supported.
    
    4) Use a screw every 12" along each stud.  More is overkill and
    just gives you more holes to fill (less of an issue with skimcoat).
    I have observed that ONE sheetrock screw will actually hold up a
    sheet of 4*8*1/2 board against a ceiling (of course I don't recommend
    that your kids play under it... :-)
    take a nap under it
    

    
    
    	I am in the middle of redoing a complete 2500 sq ft house with
    16 ft cathedral ceilings and I have learned one thing from this.
    NEVER-EVER-AGAIN. I will never attempt to sheet rock and tape and
    seam again. It has to be the slowest project of all times. We have
    been doing it for 3 weeks and we only have 2 rooms done and the
    rest just started. I have tried every trick in the book and the
    only thing that save a little effort is the 14 inch trowel mentioned
    in another note. It does a nice job of feathering. If my wife
    ever speaks to me again it will be a miracle. She has made me swear
    to selling all my tools when this is done and I have made her swear
    to shoot me and put me out of my misery right away if I have another
    crazy idea like this. If anyone is anticipating doing this themselves
    please call me, better yet call a skim coater. 4 days and they would
    have been out of there and I am looking at a 2 month effort. That
    is why I say NEVER-EVER-AGAIN.
    

    Right. I had a skim  coat of plaster put up on a 16 x 24 foot room
    with Cathedral ceilings.. 4-5 hours and it was done. (not including
    hanging the blue board). Smooth walls and Sand ceiling. 
    
    Steve

    I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but for those who choose
    to use tape and joint compound, they should consider the
    adhesive-backed fiberglas mesh tape for the seams (instead of paper tape).
                                                
    I think it's made by Hyde, and is sold at Spag's for about $4.50
    per 200'(?) roll.  It is *much* easier than using paper tape. 
                                                
    Be sure to get the adhesive-backed fiberglas -- it also comes without
    adhesive. 
    
      

sounds like I'm doing it right so far...

one last question is that I haven't gotted too fussy about number of joints,
assuming that with skim coat it's no big deal.  I also haven't worried too much
about butting tapered edge to tapered edge (although I certainly try where
reasonable).

the two points above make blueboard/plaster an additional winner in my opinion.
I remember when I sheetrocked/taped I went to lots of pain to minimize joints
and to keep the tapered edges together for feathering.

-mark

    
    
    	3/4 inch space is no problem to fill but it will crack. A
    professional skim coater told me that anything greater than a 1/4
    inch will crack in a very short time. He didn't define short time.
    He recommended to me that I fill the large gaps with slivers of
    wall board, nail them in if possible or jam in. This will give the
    compound something to adhere to. Skim coating can cover a lot of
    sins but it is not panacea for all evils.
    
    

    
    It may have been me, but I really don't think it was...
    
    I wouldn't use that mesh tape again for the joints.  Most of the
    joints I made with that stuff ended up cracking right at the joint.
    It's nice for the amount of time you save, but i'm not crazy about
    all those hairline cracks on my walls.
    
    						.dave.

    re .28
    
    In all my years of dealing with the building trades, it is obvious
    to me that professional sheetrocker/plasterers have a higher ratio of
    speed advantage over amateurs than all the rest of them put together
    and then some.

    I have no idea why this is true.  One would think that after doing
    hundreds of feet of joints the efficiency would pick up, but it
    just ain't the case.

    And skimcoating (plastering) is nigh on impossible for an amateur
    to pick up.
    
    I, too, will never again do sheetrock involving more than a couple
    of joints.
    
    

    re .2
    
    Whoa, you didn't mention butting tapered edge to non-tapered edge.
    
    The pro from whom I get all this info says that's a no-no, even
    for skim coating. For a taper-to-tape joint, the skimcoat fills
    the recess and becomes level with the rest of the board.  For a
    nontaper-to-nontaper joint they merely (!) build up the thickness
    gradually over a large area such that they have enough space over
    the joint to cover the tape.  But for a taper-to-nontaper they have
    to do a combination of both which takes longer and has more of a
    chance of not looking right (and cracking).

    	I've had great luck with the mesh tape.  I hate the paper
    tape because I always get bubble and end up sticking my finger
    in the goop.  I've done two rooms and I haven't had joints crack.
    	Hanging and Taping joints is not my idea of fun.  It isn't really
    that hard, it just takes time.  I feel I can do as good as a job
    with tape and JC as anyone.  In the ideal world I'd pay someone
    to do it.  Compared to ripping out old plaster it a joy!
    
    					=Ralph=

    I've also found the mesh far superior to the paper.
    
    The reason why pros have such a large speed factor over the amateur
    is that once you get to the point where you are practiced enough
    to slop it on - you do just that.  Slop it on.
    
    No matter how practiced I get I can't bring myself to do that.
    I think it's subconscious that you want to do it right the first
    time.  When you are practiced enough you realize that most of the
    slop will be fixed in the next coat.  Instead you wind up going
    over the goup you just put on and create more damage than what you
    fixed.
    
    With the other trades that is not the case.  You aren't putting
    2 more coats on that will hide what you did on the first.  So you
    just can't go hell bent for leather like you can with mudding.

    I have a question for all of those who have said they would never
    do sheetrock again.  How much would it have cost to have a pro do
    the job that you did?  One of the biggest reasons for DIY is to
    save money (as well as have fun?).  I agree that the pro can do
    it much faster, but that is what he/she is paid to do.  If I wanted
    to put out my hard-earned money, I would hire the person.  But,
    why do that when you can do it yourself.  It may not always be faster,
    but you will have the pride of saying that YOU did it.
    
    Ed..
    

 
 >    It may not always be faster,              
 >   but you will have the pride of saying that YOU did it.
  
    For a lot of the sheetrocking I did myself, I wouldn't want to tell
    anyone I did it.
                                              

    It's a question of degree.
    
    I wouldn't be in this notes file if I didn't think that DIY should
    always be the first alternative explored.  In many areas, with a little practice
    you can do equal or better than a pro and spend SOMEWHAT more time
    doing it.  I'll even let "somewhat" get up to factors of 3x or 4x
    or more if it's something I don't mind doing.

    But with finishing sheetrock, I find it takes me ten times longer
    to do a half-as-good job.
    
    BTW sheetrockers are still a relatively good deal (compared to
    plumbers, electricians, and even finish carpenters).  Many of them
    take on homeowner size jobs (single rooms, additions) in off hours.
    And has been noted, they work very, very fast.

    I'm with Dave; most of the sheetrock work I've done I wouldn't want
    to admit to, either.
    Some things I can do a good job at; some things I can't.  Sheetrock
    and joint compound is one of the things I can't do well, even after
    a lot of practice.  In the time it takes me to do a mediocre job
    on one seam, a pro can do a whole room.
    Other people just seem to have the knack.  My wife did as good a
    job taping a seam the first time she tried it as I can do after
    years of trying.  I suspect that those of you who think it's no
    big deal and wonder why anybody would hire it done, just have the
    magic touch that some of the rest of us lack.

You might be surprised at the difference in cost between doing it 
yourself and having a pro do it. It's probably not as much as you might 
think and considering the "frustration factor" (I definetely agree with 
the last few - I hate sheetrocking), I think on all but the smallest 
jobs, a pro is the most cost-effective approach.

Chuck

A previous note mentioned that DIY was to save money and for fun.  DIY 
sheetrocking is NOT fun!!!

I've wondered from time to time if it would be worth it to take some the the
easier DIY projects and do them for profit to then take the $$$'s to pay pros to
do the less fun things at my house!

-mark

    	The number of DIYer's who 'hate' sheetrocking is quite interesting.
    I find sheetrocking and skim plastering two of the easiest major
    DIY jobs.
    
    	We finished the basement in out previous home (built three rooms)
    and we did all the sheetrock work and skim plastering ourselves
    (Libby did the designing and I did the work).  I even used a lot
    of smaller left over pieces of sheetrock to build a closet - the
    taping on this piece was a pain in the a** but not so bad I wouldn't
    try it again.
    
    	It just goes to prove waht was stated in an earlier note, different
    people are better at different DIY efforts.  When it comes to any
    work on small engines my efforts are always terrible!
    
    Douglas

    
    
    To give you an idea of the cost I paid $7.50 per board to 
    hang and another $5 to tape and finish. 
    
    wayne
    
    

    I thinki you need to distinguish between the hanging of the sheetrock,
    and the finishing.  I'll agree that the finishing is a pain in the
    A**, and one of the dirties DIY jobs you can think of (this side
    of ditch digging).  The hanging, on the other hand. is not al lthat
    hard.  Ceilings, contrary to common belief, are a breeze - the rental
    cost for a jack (aka Gypsy Jack) for a whole week is only ~$60 -
    and you can hang a H**L of a lot of sheetrock in a week!  The taping
    gets real time consuming, and the sanding is the pits - I got a
    guy for $75/day to just do sanding, and it was well worth it (he
    worked like the devil, and tired me out trying to keep up with him
    on the taping and 2nd/3rd coats of mud).
    
    Maybe contract out thefinishing, but as .-1 poited out in his costs,
    the real $ savings is in doing the hanging yourself; be sure to
    do a good job, though, or they will want more to do the finishing
    if they have to keep fixing your mistakes (wide gaps between sheets,
    etc).
    
    -reed
    

>                       -< Hanging=OK, finishing=no fun >-

The problem with that is that the sheetrock companies also realize that a lot 
of the profit is in the hanging - and thus most that I've dealt with don't want 
to do the taping unless they do the hanging also.

They're not dummies.

Paul

Now plastering is a whole different deal.  I've talked to several people and
they could care less who hangs the rock since they ONLY do the finish work.  One
price I was given was about $.85/sq ft!  That comes out to aroudn $25 a sheet
which is considerably more expensive than the hanging charge.

-mark

    RE .42 YODA::Taylor
    
    	Did the $7.50 per board include the cost of the board?  An �"
    sheet of board costs about $5.  I called Taylor Rent-All and asked
    about the drywall jack, $17/day.  It look like my wife and I can
    put up the ceiling without calling the divorce lawyer first :^)
    	Come on guys, don't scare potential DYI'er out of this job.
    Just remember to put the mud on THIN and go back a number of times.
    I bought a coffee for a guy doing the mudding here at APO and picked
    up a few tips.  
    					=Ralph=

    I am looking for some suggestions for the following problem.  Last
    year I installed a shelving rack against a wall. It used about 30
    drywall anchors (plastic anchors about 3/8 inch dia). These were
    driven into 3/8 holes in the drywall. The hitch is these anchors
    protrude above the drywall about a 1/16th of an inch- so they can't
    just be taped and plastered unless I remove them first.
    
    Well, now I need to remove the rack. I am looking for suggestions
    how to remove these and repair the wall (suitable for painting).
    Should I knocked them into the wall?
    
    suggestions??
    
    Mark

After you remove the shelves, try turning the screws back in about 2 or 3
threads worth, and give them a yank with some pliers.  That out to pop
the anchors out, since they really don't get their strength until the 
screw is inserted farther into the taper.

Bob

    Another idea would be to drill the top part off (use a drill slightly
    larger than the screw hole) and push what remains back into the wall.
    
    
    Eric

    re .2  I think you would be better off pushing them into the wall
    then pulling them out. Its the same principle with finish head nail
    on molding....by pulling the nail all the way thru you leave a hole
    pulling it out will cause the wood to splinter. I would drill, then
    push them into the wall.  have fun putting mud to cover all the
    holes.
    
    
    	Don
    

    The "pro's" that I've seen handle these anchors in office buildings
    bang them into the wall with a hammer (much like dimpling drywall
    nails when hanging drywall) and then touch up over them with joint
    compound.  Pulling them out is likely to tear up the wall much worse
    then pounding them in.

    
    I used some of these same anchors in a condo I moved out of a 
    few months back. I tried pushing them them through AND pulling
    them out minus the screw, but did considerable harm both ways.
    
    Finally I settled on doing it this way:
    
    	Grip the edges of the exposed head with a pair of nippers
    	and pull it away from the wall about 1/16th of an inch. Now
    	put the edges of the nippers behind the head and snip it off.
    	Use a punch or small screw dirver and push what remains back
    	into the airspace behind the wall. What's left is a hole that
    	is no harder to fill than a screw hole.
    
    							* MAC *

    Sheetrock's cheap enough.  Why not cut out the entire affected piece
    and then install a new, clean sheet?  Then you'd only have the seams
    and nail/screw holes to worry about.  I might save you from having
    a rather "pimply looking" wall.
    
    	Ted

    This is from lots of direct experience repairing walls in rental
    units.
    
    We're not talking about molly-bolts.
    
    As was said earlier, you can turn a screw in a thread or two with
    your fingers and (again with same fingers that turned the screw)
    very easily pull them out.  This is the fastest, easiest, and least
    damaging method.
    
    Pete

    Another problem is what to do when a previous DIYer installed the
    sheetrock without bringing the electrical outlet out to the new
    surface, leaving a recessed outlet.
    
    Not wanting to rip out the entire wall, I hit upon the idea of using
    some of those fiber washer thingies that go inside a faucet.  There
    about 3/8" diameter and about 1/8" thick with a hole in the middle
    that is just the right size for the screws that hold the outlet
    into the box.  I just unscrewed the outlet, put two of these on
    each screw as spacers and screwed it back in.  Now the plug is flush
    with the surface of the wall.
    

    Make sure that the connections are well taped if these are in a
    metal box.  The washers now give the outlet sufficient sideplay
    to short to the box.

    I believe that the code specified that the BOX be flush (or so far
    below) the wall depending on the wall material, not just the outlet.
    
    Eric

    You can buy things called plaster rings for extending a box.  They
    are recgtangular metal "rings" about 1/2" or so high that attach
    to the front of a box.

    RE: .8
    
>    Make sure that the connections are well taped if these are in a
>    metal box.  The washers now give the outlet sufficient sideplay
>    to short to the box.

    The washers do not give any side play to the outlet.  The outlet
    is still held in with the same two screws to the same hole in the
    box.  The hole in the washer is the same diameter as the screw and
    there's no play.
    

    It's still not legal.  There can't be more than some small gap (1/4"?)
    between the surface edge of the box and the surface to which the
    fixture is mounted.  The idea of a box is to keep unsheathed wire
    and connectors from contacting a combustible surface.

I'm going to do something that I haven't done before.  Could you please start a 
new note asking specifically about drywall ceiling jacks?  A separate title in 
the directory on just that topic will be easier for someone to find than 
finding reply 47 in a note on sheetrock tips.

Thanks,
Paul

    Anybody seen the 'box rings' mentioned in the reply two previous?
    
    Spags? Builder's Square?  ???
    
    
    Mark
    

    	The toughest for me when hanging drywall is locating the holes
    for the outlets.  It's no fun to hold the section in place while
    the other person bangs in the front of the board in hopes of leaving
    a impression of the outlet.  This weekend my wife came up with an
    idea that worked great, cover the edges of the outlet with lipstick.
    Then when you press the board against the outlet it leaves a clear
    mark at the proper location.  I tried grease pencil before, but
    it didn't transfer to the board very well.  
    	My wife had received a free sample of "hooker red" lipstick that
    she was planning to throw away.  We gave it a try and it transferred
    well to the board leaving a clear red mark.  The lipstick is a bit
    messy but cleans up easily with a little paint thinner.  Give it
    a try, it really works, although I got a few strange looks when
    I went to buy more drywall screws and had lipstick in my tool belt!
    					=Ralph=

    RE: .12  "It's still not legal."
    
>    There can't be more than some small gap (1/4"?) between the surface
>    edge of the box and the surface to which the fixture is mounted. 

    I guess I'm safe then, two 1/8" washers add up to 1/4".
    
    

    I too have been confounded at how to raise my electrical outlets
    up to the surface of the drywall.  At the suggestion of this note,
    I went out to my local hardware store, O'Connors True Value in
    Billerica, and purchased the "box ring", or whatever its called.
    (It wasn't labeled.) 

    It works great and all the wires are still sheilded.  Cost $1.79.
    Basically it's a sheet of aluminium, folded into a square, which
    you slide into/around your electrical box.  Then you use the longer
    screws provided to hold it the precise distance from the box that you
    need.  I can definitely recommend this method.

>  <<< Note 1293.13 by DELNI::MHARRIS "Mark Jay Harris, Term Srvr Mktg Mgr" >>>
>                            -< Box extender rings? >-
>
>    Anybody seen the 'box rings' mentioned in the reply two previous?
>    
>    Spags? Builder's Square?  ???

    They're available at most any hardware store.  Aubuchon, True Value, etc.

    
    	I just finished up with taping and seaming the drywall in my
    dining room.  This is the third room I've done and I continue to
    find new tricks and things to avoid.  I'd thought I'd pass some
    along here.
    	When I was hanging the sheet rock I had my brother in law over
    to help.  In order to let him go as soon as possible, I only put
    in the minimum number of screws to hold up sheet.  I figured that
    I could go back later and screw in the rest at a later time.  The
    mistake I made was to screw down both ends of the sheet completely,
    putting none in the center.  When I went back the next day to fill
    in the rest I noticed that the drywall had a slight bow in the center.
    I ended up removing the screws from one end then putting in the
    screws from left to right to eliminate the bowing.
    	The mudding went well, the fiberglas tape is much easier than
    the paper tape and is well worth the extra $4 per roll.  I put the
    coats on thin.  I still can't do both sides of an inside corner
    at the same time.  I do all the left hand sides on one day, and
    after that coat dries I do the other side. I think I could make 
    a million bucks if I could invent peppermint flavored joint 
    compound.  Maybe then sanding wouldn't be so bad :^)   .
    	It took two people 8 hours total to hang the board.  It took
    me a total of 20 hours to put on three coats of mud, with a fourth
    touch up on the smooth ceiling.  It looks damn good, if I do say
    so myself.  The costs were as follows for a 12' x 14' room with
    8.5' ceilings:
    
    	16 sheets of 4 x 8 1/2" sheetrock       $88
    	4 sheets of 4 x 12 1/2" sheetrock    	$32
    	1 roll of fiberglas tape 		$ 6
    	2 5 gal buckets of joint comp		$20
    	1.5 boxes of drywall screws		$15
    	1 day rental of drywall jack		$18
    	2 sections of metal corner bead		$ 2                                               
    	1 gal of KILZ drywall sealer paint	$16
    					       ------
    						$197                                              
    
    	Considering my wife spent $350 on wall paper I think it was
    a very good investment!  It's also nice to have the room insulated
    and rewired.
    				=Ralph=            
    

	Best advice--- Talk to your local Building Inspector.

   In most towns, not only is fire-retardant (FireRock (TM)?) required on the
 ceiling, but also on any walls shared with a living area.

								--Mike

    As I know it, towns require FireCode sheetrock (5/8 'firecode' stuff)
    to be between the garage and ALL LIVING AREAS. If you have nothing
    inhabitable above your garage area, no sheetrock at all is required.
    
    (By inhabitable, I mean not finished, not connected to any living
    area or hallways, etc)
    
    Mark

    Been lucky so far - all taping I've ever had to do has been
    on finish (tapered) edges, except for corners, of course.
    
    I'm now finishing up hanging on a job where there are a fair 
    number of butt (end) joints in what will be visible areas.
    
    Can anyone offer any especially useful tips/cautions/etc. to
    make these look as good as taper-edge joints?
    
    Thanks in advance.
    

>< Note 1603.54 by WILKIE::SILVA >
>    Can anyone offer any especially useful tips/cautions/etc. to
>    make these look as good as taper-edge joints?

	See note 652.0-.11 for a another discussion of sanding joints (both 
 tapered and butt).

						--Mike

    in re .55:
    Thanks, but it seems apparent that tapered joints were being discussed
    there.
    
    Butt joints on an open expanse require special handling.  In my
    case, the rooms were partly hung when I started, and the work is
    good.  The butt joints will be a problem, however.
    
    As I understand it, exposed butt joints are not supposed to be aligned
    in the same plane as the face of the sheet.  That is, the strapping
    to which the edges fasten should be mounted "lower," in order to
    pull the edges in slightly, simaulating the form of factory-tapered
    edges and allowing them to be compounded/taped much the same as
    tapered.
    
    The joints I'm dealing with are hung neat, clean, square, and I
    believe, wrong.  The only plus is that the screws are far enough
    back from the edges to leave an area about 1.5" wide.
    
    My gut feel is that I may be able to slice the face paper on each
    side and peel into the gypsum a few 32nds, then lay in a narrow
    strip of tape, some compound, and try to finish it off flush w/
    the paper (hope for good enough finish to compensate w/primer).
    
    I need to know if this is worth trying (I expect a mess), or if
    there are any other workarounds.  I'm now bordering on ripping
    and replacing.  Any guidance appreciated.
    

>< Note 1603.56 by MAMIE::SILVA >

	In theory, what you say sounds fine but I have never seen it done in
 practice.  How would you get the butt joint you describe on, say, a studded
 wall?  In-let the stud on which the butt joint occurs?  Are there different
 thicknesses of strapping to be used under butt joints?  I don't think it is
 done but hey, I'm no professional rock-hanger (just done my share on my own
 house).

	I treat butt joints by minimizing the amount of compound directly over
 the seam and doing a little extra feathering on either side.  In some cases
 where alignment between the sheets is bad I've used the method you describe;
 peel back the paper on either side of the joint and lay the mesh in the 
 "trough" to minimize it's height.  But those cases were the exception.

	What you suggest certainly sounds feasible to me but I question whether
 all that extra work is worth effort when careful "mudding" and sanding will
 accomplish the same thing.
    
								--Mike

>    My gut feel is that I may be able to slice the face paper on each
>    side and peel into the gypsum a few 32nds, then lay in a narrow
>    strip of tape, some compound, and try to finish it off flush w/
>    the paper (hope for good enough finish to compensate w/primer).
>    
>    I need to know if this is worth trying (I expect a mess), or if
>    there are any other workarounds.  I'm now bordering on ripping
>    and replacing.  Any guidance appreciated.

Yup, it  will  work.    Usually the only problem with that approach is that you
need to un-screw  (only  screws,  not nails, here), shave off .125", re-scew to
the new surface and  then  tape.  You should also consider tapering IN from the
original surface down to the  reduced  surface  at  the  but.    I  do  that by
placing a 2xwhatever along the new  edge  and  "bashing".   That permits you to
taper the new joint with compound up to the original surface.

                ------------\_________ _________/-----------------
                                     | |
                ---------------------- ---------------------------

Practice on junk pices.

Luck,

Dave

    I can't help but observe that folks who are willing to go to such
    fussy lengths with drywall might as well be plastering!
    
    		DCL, fan of plastered walls

When I sheetrocked, I used a belt sander to tack off some of the paper and
gypsum.  It seemed to work ok.

As for .-1's comment about why not just plaster, I too thought of saying that
but the big difference is plastering is NOT a DIY job (at least I don't think
it is - anybody out there every try it?) and taping and jointing is.

-mark

RE: back a few...

	You are being way to picky, feather out the joints about a foot
on either side of the joint, no one will ever be the wiser...

Brad.

    	I agree, there is no need to 'gut out' the sections.  Simply
    feather the joints out a foot or so.
    
    	One trick I learned a long time ago for feathering - which does
    work regardless of what anyone tells you - is to use a damp rough
    sponge rather than sandpaper.  This was 'taught' to me by   ^^^^^
    professionals and has been laughed at by thousands of DYIers until
    they tried it.  It is quicker than sanding.  It is cleaner than
    sanding.  You must use the sponge before the plaster has fully set
    - while the plaster is still workable.                      
    
    	Also, when feathering joints, use the proper sized trowel -
    one at least 12 inches wide - and as little plaster as possible.
    Major plastering problems for most people:
    
    	.  too much plaster
        .  too much plaster
    	.  too much plaster
    	.  too narrow a feathering area
    	.  too much plaster
    	.  too light a touch with the trowel 
    
    Douglas - who enjoys plastering above almost all DYI jobs.
    	

one question on the code for fire rock between garage and living areas...
I am completing my new garage and breezeway and what I was going to do
is put fire rock on the breezeway garage-side wall only and put only shiplap
pine in the garage.  The breezeway will have cathedral ceiling so almost
the entire wall between garage and ell will be covered with the fire rock
 with just the vrey peak no protected.  Builing inspector thought it was OK
but this guy doesnt know much. I can get away with almost anything but I 
wnat to do this right because I feel this is a good code.   any ideas?

gary

    Depending on how long the breezeway is, do you even need firerock
    in the garage.  The garage is not sharing any walls with living
    space.  I thought this was the criteria for determining when to
    use firerock?
    
    Ed..
    

the "breezeway" is an 11X12' room, insulated, finished, and probably heated
in which case I'll remove the door between it and the house. so its more
than a "mudroom".  Plus, if the garage wall didnt have fire rock wouldnt
the wall between the house and "breezeway" then need it?

    If the setup were the house, with a breezeway, then the garage,
    I would have to say that the breezeway is nothing more than an enclosed
    walkway, and not a living area.  If that be the case, then I wouldn't
    think firerock would be needed.
    
    If, on the other hand, you are using the breezeway as a mudroom,
    with the house open to the breezeway, then I would say the garage
    should have firerock on the adjoining wall.
    
    I am no expert on the codes, so don't take my word.  I am just guessing
    what would seem logical.  That doesn't always have any bearing on
    the building code world.
    
    Ed..
    

    We built 2 years ago in southern Mass and the building inspector made
    the contractor rip out and replace the sheetrock against our breezeway
    peak and replace it with "firerock". Originally the contractor had just
    done the wall section below the ceiling. This "breezeway" was
    completely enclosed and heated and is really an extension of our back
    familyroom.
    
    If you do the whole wall you'll have more time if it is ever tested.
    It's your own peace of mind that is the final test and a fire moving up
    into an attic or faster towards a second floor bedroom area should be
    more of a concern than whether the inspector is fully enforcing the
    code. I'd say to go the extra few sheet of "firerock" and maybe provide
    a few extra moments of egress in case of a garage fire moving into the
    main house.

>   I would have to say that the breezeway is nothing more than an enclosed
>   walkway, and not a living area.  If that be the case, then I wouldn't
>   think firerock would be needed.
>    
>   and others....

    Why are you people always trying to get around and/or justify the
    building code. The sheetrock fire wall between an attached garage and
    YOUR HOUSE is there for YOUR SAFETY. 
    
    Whether the garage is attached to your house directly or to a breezeway
    that's attached to your house isn't going to matter too much to a
    fire. 
    
    Charly

    P.S. Don't forget that the door between the garage and house/
    breezeway/ mudroom/ or what-ever-you-call-it  should/must be a fire
    rated door (a 2 hour firedoor I believe, here in Sterling, Mass.
    anyways). 
    

Not that I'm implying one should go against code, but how would one even tell if
you had firecode sheetrock once it's up and plastered/painter?  The inspections
are done before it's hung and after it's finished...

Just out of curiousity, does anyone have any data at hand as to just what kind
of differences the firecode stuff makes?  I'm certainly not one to ignore safety
but at the same time I sometimes wonder about the codes as well.  

-mark

    Re .68
    
    I don't think people are trying to get around the codes.  In many
    instances, there are grey areas which could be interpreted one way
    by the inspector and another by the owner.  In the case of the
    breezeway, if it were just a roof to keep the rain off, then the
    garage should not be considered attached.  If, as I indicated in
    an earlier note, it were actually something of a mudroom or usable
    extension of the living space, the garage would be considered attached.
    
    Let's not get frustrated by such questions.  That is one of the
    things this conference is here for.  To help all of us abide by
    the building codes.
    
    Ed..
    

>    In the case of the
>    breezeway, if it were just a roof to keep the rain off, then the
>    garage should not be considered attached.  If, as I indicated in
>    an earlier note, it were actually something of a mudroom or usable
>    extension of the living space, the garage would be considered attached.

To me, the interesting question is not "what is the definition of an
attached garage?", the interesting question is "what should I do to be
safe from a garage fire"?  If the garage is completely detached,
then a fire in the garage has got to shoot sparks to set my house
on fire, or else get so hot that it can spontaneously ignite combustables
that are at a distance from the actual fire.  Either way, I've got
extra time to get out of my house, and maybe get the fire dept there
so that my house can be saved.

But suppose I have a "detatched" garage with a roof connecting it to
my house.  A fire in the garage could spread to the roof and across
to my house long before it would for a fully detatched garage -- unless 
the roof is fire resistant, or unless there is a fire resistant wall
somewhere in there.

Of course, if you don't see garages as being particularly fire-prone
(and I suppose they are much safer now than they used to be), then the
thing to do would be to do the minimal amount the code requries.  But
if you believe that a garage fire is a threat worth protecting yourself
against, than don't argue about whether the garage is "attached" --
block the routes a fire could take to quickly get from there to your 
house (and that includes the attic and overhanging trees).

	Larry

                            
                                Problem/Tips


   I am in the process of ripping down all the walls in a rental unit.
I have some questions around how to put the sheetrock up.

 (1) Do i leave the lattice up and put the sheet rock over it after just
          ripping the plaster off it ? This would mean butting up the sheet 
          rock to the existing molding. Is this alright?
          Or is it obviously a half a__ job?

 (2) Do i take the lattice down also, so that maybe i will have enough clearing
          space to sneak the sheets behind the molding. Is this Possible?

 (3) The house has recently been blown-in insulated. Will it stay up if i 
          carefully remove the lattice, if i remove the lattice at all.

 (4) The molding is all natural wood and in good shape. Would hate to have to
          try taking this off the walls so that i can avoid butting the 
          sheet rock up to it.


 (5) I have help lined up for tommorrow . Any quick suggestions would be 
          greatly appreciated.

 (6) Would have put this note in earlier but just got the apartment empty
          last nite and noticed a sale on sheet rock which i picked up this
          morning. Time is money and must get the job asap so that i can 
          start showing it.

    You can put the sheetrock up over the lattice.  Take the mouldings
    off CAREFULLY and you'll make it a nice neat job.  Use screws to
    hang the sheetrock.  Since there is insulation in the walls of the
    cellulose (loose, dusty, etc.) type, do not remove the lath boards or
    you'll end up with an uninsulated house.  After the walls are taped,
    mudded, painted, replace the mouldings.  
    
    
    Jack

    Taking the plaster off the lath would not work in several renovations
    that I've done.
    
    The way plaster works on lath is that the first coat oozes into
    the gaps between the lath and then, due to gravity, droops a bit
    when it protrudes into the wall cavity.  This forms a "key" when
    the plaster dries so that the plaster cannot be pulled horizontally
    out of the lath unless (1) the "key" breaks off, or (2) the lath
    gives way.  Which one happens in a given situation is a function
    of how well the lath is put on and/or what method you use to break
    off the plaster.  If the plaster is strong the only way you can
    save the lath is by shearing the plaster coat off flush with the
    lath.  With really solid plaster this can be very time-consuming.

    
    I'm currently in the process of selecting a plastering contractor
    to skim-coat plaster my new house. Based on quality and price, I've
    narrowed my list of contractors down to two. 
    
    Since they both have good reputations for doing quality work, I
    decided to find out a little more about the materials they used.
    Everything was almost identical, the only difference was the
    type of joint tape they used - the first contractor used the
    fiberglass mesh tape and the second used a hand-held machine
    which applied paper tape and joint compound simultaniously.

    Does anyone know for sure which is better... both contractors
    claim that thier methods are better.
    
    HELP!!
    
    John

I would think there would be little or no difference.  No matter how they tape,
they'll use two or more additional "coats" of joint compound.  Seems to me,
it's just a matter of preference during the application.
(Hadn't heard of a tape/mud machine.  I'm skeptical.  But I suppose some
cavemen were skeptical of the wheel.)

I hate to say it, but your question doesn't make sense.  If you're skim coating
you don't use jointing compound.  Further, if you skim coating you ONLY use
mesh tape.  Therefore I have to assume you're NOT skim coating.

As to what to use for jointing, I prefer mesh, but if you're a pro I'd suspect
it doesn't matter a whole lot.

-mark

    I've used both.  If there are settling issues where the wall has
    some movement the fiberglass mesh is preferred.  It's stronger.
    
    I also used a machine that my father had built to apply the paper
    tape.  I much prefer to use the mesh tape when doing my work.
    
    I would not base my decision on the contractor on the tape.  There
    are far more important issues.  What about his reputation for showing
    up on time and completing the job on time.  If EVERY other
    consideration is in fact a wash, I personally would go with the
    guy using the mesh tape.  It's stronger.  It's a little more expensive
    and that's probably the motivation for the guy that doesn't use
    it.  Therefore the guy that does use the mesh tape uses a higher
    quality material.  He may be a little more in tune with modern day
    techniques and the other guy says "That's the way my grandfather
    did it.  That's the way my daddy did it.  If it was good enough
    for them ..."

    JOHN
    I've tried both and I seem to have better luck with the mesh. It
    also has an adhesive back on it which makes it want to stay in place
    better when skimming/compounding. 
    
    Tom

    Re .3  Let's be fair to the contractor using the tape.  Yes, I have
    heard of a machine which does as was described.  A contractor is
    out to do good, fast work.  I suspect that the machine would not
    work with mesh and only works with the paper.  Therefore, just because
    he is using paper doesn't make him behind the times.
    
    Also, I have done some sheetrocking.  I have used the paper.  I
    have never had a problem with it.  I, personally, don't understand
    the major benefit to the mesh to justify the added expense.
    
    But, I agree that I would not judge a contractor based on the type
    of tape he uses.  As has already been stated, all materials are
    of equal quality.  The only difference is the tape.  Are the prices
    about the same?  If so, then alot will depend on your personal
    impression of the contractors.  Was there one you liked better than
    the other?  Did one strike you as being more sympathetic to questions,
    etc.?
    
    Ed
    

Re: fiberglass tape being stronger

If a wall of 'n' hundred pounds wants to bend/twist/buckle under 'n' tons
of stress (or whatever some valid numbers might be), would the type of joint
tape make any difference?  Or even just one 4x12 sheet of 1/2" drywall, which
must weigh, what 60 - 100 lbs?

Just curious.

    I have used both paper and mesh.  I prefer the mesh because as it
    impregnates the joint compound it acts as a bonding agent and adds
    strength.  The paper works to cover the joint.  If your house it
    going to settle, either will break and cause a crack.  
    
    As mentioned in other replies, go with the contractor which is more
    willing to work with you and for you.  Either method you describe
    will provide a valid joint.
    
    As Mark mentioned, if you are skimcoating you don't tape the joints.
    Are you sure you are skimcoating?

    RE: skimcoating and tape
    
    Actually, you do tape the joints for skimcoat.  At least, my plasters
    did and I wouldn't go any other way.  Skimcoat is not so strong 
    that it doesn't need tape.  

    
    	The machine is called a " Banjo ". Never used one but I understand
    their great for big jobs.
    

    Thanks for all the excellent information/opinions/evaluations!!
    
    Rep. 2 & 7 - Yes, I am having the walls SKIM-COAT plastered, not
    sheetrock with compund. The contractor using the hand-held paper
    tape applicator did say "joint compund", but what they probably
    use is the same plaster they do the skim-coating with (just a guess).
    
    All things considered, I've decided to go with the mesh-tape 
    contractor - he was the most open to questions, and I feel that
    I'm getting a good price.
    
    Thanks again,
    John
    

If you're skim coating and the contractor said JOINT COMPOUND you had better
get some clarification.  I know someone who ALWAYS skim coats with jointing
compound.  He claims it's cheaper and easier to get a smooth surface since it
can be sanded.  I'm highly skeptical and would only go with PLASTER.

-mark

    If your lath is anything like mine (1/4"-thick old wood, very brittle),
    it's not strong or rigid enough to support sheetrock, and driving
    fasteners into it will split it.  It also doesn't present a uniform
    surface onto which to mount the drywall - some lath boards will be
    cupped, twisted, or otherwise weird.

    Look on the back of a typical 62 lb. can of joint compound and you
    will see "suitable for skim coating". I skim coated a bathroom
    with joint compound last year - no problems.
    
    I agee with the previous note. If you going to pay the bucks for
    professionals, make sure they use plaster.

You could skim coat with Joint Compound if you wanted but don't forget
that it's WATER SOLUBLE even when dry! You can "wet sand" it with a
sponge right?! You'd have to seal it with something to get a semi
permanent surface. 

I've even noticed the joint compound of a textured ceiling disolving
slightly when I was rolling on the first coat of latex ceiling paint,
especially if I went over the same spot a few times. 

Real plaster doesn't have these bugs/features.

Charly

RE: .13

	What would you seal a joint compounded ceiling with?  All of the
ceilings in my house are textured designs with joint compound and I was
wondering what to use to seal them with.

Thanks,
Kevin

>>	What would you seal a joint compounded ceiling with?  

Either Oil base as stated previously or latex paint as I did. The
ceilings don't really fall apart when you paint them, the surface
STARTS to get a little mushy after a few minutes if you are still
rolling or brushing it, but it still dries hard and then the second
coat has no effect since the surface is now sealed. 

I was only trying to re-enforce the fact that joint compound is water
soluble when dry where as plaster is not. 

I had this vision in my mind of someone skim coating their walls with
joint compound, thinking that all was fine. Imagine what would happend
if you tried to wash that wall, or paint a smooth wall with latex
paint and wonder why that once smooth wall takes on the texture of the
roller or brush strokes. Or even worst, imagine what would happen if
you tried to wallpaper an unsealed, joint-compound skimcoated wall :-(

Charly

RE .3 (Breaking plaster keys)
     I've been removing ceramic tiles glued to lath&plaster walls.  A 3" 
brick chisel between the lath and plaster works very well -- it breaks the 
keys and lifts off the plaster and tile.  

RE .4 (Blueboard over uneven lath)
     Would putting the blueboard over uneven lath be any worse than 
blueboarding over uneven studs?  If you have the problem, don't you have 
to solve it regardless of whether there's 1/4" of lath in the middle?

     At outside corners, the metal corner is about 1" wide.  Should the 
blueboard cover this, or stop 1" short of the corner?  If it covers the 
corner piece, the skimcoat will be thinner at the corner.  Does it matter?

There are a few passing and direct references to drywall screws
around, but I'd like to ask some specific questions about them
and other fasteners like them.

I just did my first small home project using them, and boy do they
make things easier.  I know they were developed for drywall use,
and have been adopted more widely.  I expect the form has been varied
from that optimized for "drywall" and the like.  Just scanning the
fastener rack at the lumber store indicates lots of other optimized forms.
Is there a more generic name for these things now, like "machine driveable
pilotless threaded fasteners" or some such?

2850.* talks about rust and some other features, and makes passing
reference to strength.  Why is there the warning on the boxes
about their weakness in shear loading?  I can understand this for
drywall screws particularly, where the designed load has very little
shear component, but other forms of screw (not specifically
identified as "drywall" or "wallboard" screws) carry the same warning.

Is this "shear load" limitation significant?  Does it just mean one should
use a #8 where a #6 would have otherwise sufficed?  (I bought #7 for my job.
One doesn't normally see odd numbered screw sizes - is this unique
to this form?)

What about tensile loading?  With the wider threads, albeit at higher pitch,
will they dominate the decking fastening market?  Can they take bouncy
live loading? I'll be building a deck this spring, and screwing 
the decking down seems preferable to nailing until my arm falls off 
or renting a compressor and nail gun.

- tom]

	I used 2 inch drywall screws to assemble the pressure treated 
bed of my utility trailer.  They worked just fine, don't seem to have 
losened up at all from hauling stuff.  I had stored the pressure 
treated decking for a year before I used it - that stuff SHRINKS !

	R

    I don't see a keyword for drywall, so I'm starting a new note.  I have
    to un-drywall a doorway that a handy person drywalled in a few years
    ago.  Do I just punch holes in the drywall and rip, or what?  (It's
    necessary to do this to move out some stuff that won't fit thru the
    main smaller sized door, so afterwards its getting drywalled in again,
    sigh.  I'm also wondering about the taped joins between the drywall
    that I'll
    remove and the drywall that will remain.  Would I cut the tape down the
    seam with a linoleum knife or something and then put another layer of
    tape over that when replacing the drywall?
    

    1111.76 uses the keyword PLASTERING&SHEETROCK.  Granted it is not
    specifically DRYWALL but all the notes about drywall are listed
    under this keyword.  The number of notes is too numerous to enumerate
    so I will just suggest that you look at 1111.76 and wade thru all
    the topics for ones which more likely.
    

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

I purchased a tub of joint compound last fall to use in sheetrocking
my addition.  After many delays I have just got to the sheetrocking and 
I noticed on the top op the joint compound there is an expiration date
of 6/89.  I didnt know joint compound could expire!  It was unopened 
during the year and kept in my cellar.  I opened it up and is still soft
and moist but I'm hessitant to use it.  I dont want it flaking or falling
off later.  Anyone have any ideas??  use it or heave it?

gary

    Don't worry about it, it also says on the top or side of 
    some to rotate stock every 90 days.  If it had been opened partly
    used and then stored for several months I would say out it goes
    but I have been in the same situation as yourself and I never had
    a problem, it may have settled out a little but if there is a little
    water on the top just mix it in and you will be all set.
     
    Good luck,
    Paul
    

    On the other hand, if it shows any signs of having dried a bit (like
    it goes on pasty instead of buttery), throw it out.  Joint compound
    is cheap stuff.
    

    When we bought our house, one of the things that we noticed was a 
    patch in the sheetrock behind the front door, the size of the doornob.
    (a stop had apparently been added after).
    
    They did an apparently OK job fixing it..  It looked OK and we didn't
    think much more about it...  Until....
    
    The other day I was carrying a box down the stairs past the front door.
    As luck would have it, I hit the patch dead on with the corner of the 
    box.  I didn't think I hit it hard, but the patch dislodged and dropped
    from sight.
    
    So, I am left with patching a hole the size of a doornob.  I would like
    to make sure I don't have to do this again...  So, how do I go about
    it?  Will simply a piece of sheetrock cut to size and taped over do it?
    (from the hole, it does not appear that they taped over it...  They
    just filled/sanded the patch to match the wall).  I remember seeing
    (of course, before this happened so I didn't pay any attention) a show
    that suggested you insert a plate behind the hole to support it. 
    That's about all I remember though....
    
    Thanks for any help!
    jeff
    

    Take a piece of 3/4" x 2" pine about 8" long and insert it through
    the hole into the wall cavity.  Center the wood vertically on the
    hole so that 2"-3" stick above the hole and the same below.  Screw
    2 sheetrock screws (1 1/4") through the sheetrock above the hole
    into the board and do the same below it.  Cut a piece of sheetrock
    approximately the size of the hole and place in the hole and insert
    2 more screws to hold it.  Mud and tape the joint, fill over the
    screws, sand and paint.
    

I've had to do this in my son's room too. The only difference to .73 I used was 
to leave an overlap of the face paper on the patch and overlap the edges with
the paper onto the wall. If you hold the patch up (or screw it in place) you can 
then put the paper against the wall and cut it and the paper underneath with a
razorblade and peel the paper off the wall (under the patch boarder) and end up 
with neat edges and only one layer of paper. I didn't have to tape it and used a 
damp sponge to "sand" the joint compound after "mud"ing it. I overlapped it about 
2 inches all around. 

P.S. if you do it right the board holding screws get under the paper edge.

A doorknob-sized hole is just about on the borderline between a spackle job and
one calling for more advanced techniques.  Sounds like the previous repairer
used the spackle approach, and that worked OK until you clobbered it.  If you
can live with that type of repair again, a spackle job is quick and easy and
uses only a few, cheap materials and tools.

The next level of sophistication is a drywall patch.  It's the technique I
would use, because I have the tools and materials and because it's fun.

1. Square up the hole.  The resulting rectangular hole should be large
   enough to get your hand through comfortably.  It's not necessary to
   enlarge the hole out to the surrounding studs.

2. Cut a piece of drywall to match the rectangular hole.  Some care in getting
   a snug fit will make things easier later.  You could have cut a piece to
   match the original round hole, but it's easier and neater to cut drywall
   on straight lines than on curves.

3. Take a small board (1x3 will do) that's a few inches longer than the hole.
   Insert it into the hole and hold it so it spans the hole from behind.
   Drive drywall screws through the existing, good wall to hold the board
   firmly in place.  (Caution:  don't drive drywall screws into your hand.
   Don't drop the board into the wall cavity.)

4. Push the patch piece of drywall into place, secure to the board with drywall
   screws.  For a bigger patch, you might have used multiple boards.

5. Taping the seams is optional, especially if you did a neat job.  If you do
   paint the seams, don't overlap the tape.

6. Cover the seams and the screwheads with the usual three coats of drywall
   compound.  Paint and ignore forever after.

The key to this technique is that, since the patch isn't very heavy, it doesn't
need substantial structural support - the small board scabbed onto the back of
the existing wall will do fine.  If the existing wall isn't in good enough
shape to take the weight, you didn't cut back enough damage!

P.S. If you haven't already installed a doorstop to avoid this problem in the
future, right now would be an excellent time.

    Great!!  Thanks for the help!
    
    jeff
    

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 1802.0          [blue!green!wall!plaster!gypsum]board?            2 replies
LABC::FRIEDMAN                                        9 lines  17-DEC-1987 19:49
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Could someone compare/contrast these terms?  I am confused.
    
    blueboard
    greenboard
    wallboard
    drywall
    gypsumboard
    plasterboard
    sheetrock
================================================================================
Note 1802.1          [blue!green!wall!plaster!gypsum]board?               1 of 2
NEXUS::GORTMAKER "the Gort"                          12 lines  17-DEC-1987 22:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You forgot waterrock,water seal. Both designed for high humidity
    locations. Sheetrock is standard generic gypsum board designed to
    be textured -vs-skim coated which happens to be where blueboard
    comes in.
    Drywall=gypsum board=sheetrock.
    I prefer to call it that white dusty when you cut it with a saw,
    heavier than anything $#!t. 8^)
    Ain't technical talk great? 8^)
    
    
    -j
    
================================================================================
Note 1802.2          [blue!green!wall!plaster!gypsum]board?               2 of 2
DICKNS::WELLCOME "Steve Wellcome (Maynard)"          17 lines  18-DEC-1987 09:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's how I would define them:
    
    drywall - equivalent to:
    wallboard - equivalent to:
    gypsumboard - equivalent to:
    plasterboard - equivalent to:
    sheetrock - a specific brand of drwyall, but generally used
    	as a generic name.
    greenboard - drywall for use in damp locations (bathrooms)
    All of the above you finish by taping and applying joint compound.
    
    blueboard - you put a skim coat of plaster over this.  It is made
    	exactly the same as drywall, except it has a different kind
    	of paper surface, designed to accept and hold the plaser skimcoat.
    

    Let's not forget about good ole CEMENTBOARD! Is'nt that *the* way
    to go in damp/humid applications?

    Actually Sheetrock is a brandname for gypsum board.
    

    re: .23  - This whole discussion helps a lot for us new homeowners. 
    Thanks!
    
    I still have one question.  When and why do you skimcoat versus taping
    and using joint compund?  Which type of "xx"board would you use for
    textured walls and would you skimcoat before texturing?
    
    -Max (whose been a homeowner for 48 hours now)
    

    My $.02
    
    The primary reason for skim coating is for the hardness of the plaster
    (durability) and the ability for the skim to hide any tape or
    wall imperfections.
    
    If you are planning to use a texture finish on the walls, then I
    wouldn't bother with a skim coat.  The texture finish will do
    a good job of "SLIGHT" taping imperfections.
    
    Judging by other notes in this conference, I would suggest
    thinking twice about textured walls.  If you become "tired"
    of the texture finish in a few years, it's a major job to
    refinish......sometimes requiring new wallbaord.

I am about to gut a tile shower-bath enclosure that fell victim to 
massive plaster rot.  I intend to install new backing and tile and
am leaning toward greenboard backing because it is much cheaper and 
easier to work with.  Another reason is that I only need at most 20
years out of it.

There's been a strong preference for wonderboard stated in this
note and other notes.  BUT I'D LIKE TO HEAR FROM SOMEONE WHO USED
GREENBOARD AND GOT INTO TROUBLE WITH IT, OR HAS RELIABLE KNOWLEDGE
OF GREENBOARD COMING APART ON SOMEONE.

Thanx in advance.

Brian

    I've used greenboard for a shower and it lasted only three years
    before disintegrating.  The studs underneath also rotted out.  Rev
    2 of the shower is cement over wire lath.  I'd recommend this or
    the wonder board but ABSOLUTELY AVOID GREENBOARD in high moisture
    situations.
    
    - gene

    I used greenboard in my bath about 7 years ago. No problems. However,
    I have a two piece tub/shower enclosure, (ie tub is one piece, and
    the shower enclosure is one piece) so no direct contact with running
    water.
    
    slr

     I have also used greenboard in a bathroom, with a two piece tub/shower
    enclosure. The walls were primed, sized and papered and I also
    installed a ceiling exhaust fan. No moisture problems to report
    yet, nor do I expect any (in the foreseeable future, hopefully!)
    
     Dave (previously a read only noter, but have gleaned alot of useful
           info from this notesfile)

    I also finished my bathroom with greenboard. This was only two years
    ago, but so far there is no sign of trouble. I stored some large
    pieces of it in my cellar which is awfully humid. It has beed there
    for two summers. I just took some up to the second floor to finish
    a dormer. Other than mildew stains, there was nothing wrong with
    it. Still as stiff and solid as when it was new.
    
    As it was mentioned before, proper ventilation in the bathroom and
    ensuring the greenboard is not in direct contact with water should
    do the trick.

    I am planning to use wonderboard  for my bathroom tile job. What
    is the easiest/best way to cut this stuff. Also, can I use mastic
    rather than thinset for the tile? I will be tiling the ceiling above
    the tub/shower, and mastic would be easier to use.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Joseph
    

    The best way to cut is like "regular" sheetrock.  Score with a razor
    knife and then break at the score point.

    
    Hi,
    
    	If this is discussed elsewhere, please direct me, I didn't find
    anything.  I'm in the process of sheetrocking our previously panelled
    livingroom.  Last night I taped and joint compounded all the seems
    except the corners.  Does anyone have any tips on how to make the
    corners look decent?  I've had problems with closet corners in the
    past :-).
    
    Thanks,
    Matt
    
    BTW:  I'm using paper tape.

Matt,

Check Grossman's or wherever you got your joint compound.  They should have
"corner bead" (to do outside corners) and "[mumble]" to do inside corners.

The inside corner (I assume that's what you're doing) is a 8' metal strip
in the form of a "V", with paper tape extending the "V".

\              /
 \            /
  \          /  - paper tape
   \        /
    \\    //
      \\ //     - thin metal
        v

<---- 2" ? ---->

Cut to length, slap it in the corner, and slap the mud (joint compound) into
the corner.

    You *do* have an inside corner dry-wall knife, right? If not, run,
    do not walk to the nearest hardware store and get one. I did some
    corners the hard way, and some with a corner-knife. The corner-knife
    saved about 4 sand and fill iterations.
    
    bld
    

    (I'm truly terrible at doing sheetrock, so you should probably 
    ignore this...)
    When I did corners using mesh tape, I found that if I did only one
    side, let it dry, then did the other side, it solved the problem
    of the tape pulling out of the corner.  I could then do subsequent
    coats with more success.  (Not great success, just more success.)

    A recent episode of Hometime recommeded the one_side_at_a_time approach
    as an alternative to the corner knife.
    
    Edd

    
    I use the corner knife, but only do one *axis* at a time
    (top-to-bottom, front-to-back, side-to-side) on the first (thick) coat.
    

  I need to obtain several sections of Moisture Resistant Sheetrock (greenboard)
 that are 4' x 12', and preferably some that are 4' x 10'.  Somerville Lumber
 carries only 4 x 8.  

  Anyone know who sells 4 x 12 sections of Greenboard in central MA?

  Thanks

   Steve

    Try  DANA Drywall Supply, I think they are located in Tyngsboro,MA
     located off Rt 3, exit 35, just before NH state line.
    

    V. Pelletier in Fitchburg carries just about everything imaginable
    related to drywall, in huge quantities.

    		Try Trahans Brothers is Southbridge, Ma.
    

    I think it only comes in 4 x 8 sheets not 10',12'.
    
    
    

Thats what a supply house in Worcester told me, bummer.

Steve
    
    
    

    
    Did you try Kesseli and Morse? They had 12 foot sections last time I
    needed them. 752-1901
    
    CdH

>    Did you try Kesseli and Morse? They had 12 foot sections last time I
>    needed them. 752-1901
    
  Thats who I tried in Worc., they said greenboard comes in only 4 by 8.
  
  To last few, thanks for the replies, I'll go with the regular rock, 1/2".

   Steve

    Having looked through all the notes on sheetrock, I didn't find a note
    that addresses this problem specifically.  
    
    I just moved into a newly built home two weeks ago.  Of course, now that
    I'm living their, all of the little imperfections that I didn't notice 
    before buying the place are now starting to become obvious.  

    One of the things I find annoying concerns the sheetrock and joint work.
    In a few of the rooms, the seams between the sheets of sheetrock appear
    to bulge out a little.  It is especially obvious when running my hand
    along the wall, in which case I can feel a sort of smooth rise where the
    seam is.  At first I thought some of the wall studs may be warped, but
    I ruled this out when I noticed this happens with both horizontal and 
    vertical seams.  Also, sometimes only a portion of a seam will appear
    to bulge out, while the remainder of it looks perfectly smooth. 

    Does anyone know what causes this problem?  I have suspected either sloppy
    joint work, or perhaps shrinking of the wall frames resulting in the 
    sheetrock buckling and popping out.

    Also, is there a way to correct this problem?

    Thanks for any information you can offer.

    Best Regards,
    Denis

    I'd go for the sloppy joint work.  Depending on how much and where
    the bulge is you might be able to help it with additional sanding
    of the joint or, if that doesn't work, adding more joint compound
    to better feather out the joint.  Of course either method will
    mean repainting or wallpapering.
    
    George

    .re -1 
    
    Ditto.  My first finger point is at the mud man.  Sloppy work. 
    The fix offered is correct also.  Sand the high spots, come back
    and add more joint compound and then feather smooth with larger
    knifes (10 -12 inch).  Final sand and repaint or wallpaper.

    Call the builder, since it is new contruction, and make him fix poor
    workmanship.

     When sanding, try the "wet sanding" method. NO dust. Simply moisten
    any smooth cloth, wring out excess water and wrap cloth around a
    block of wood large enough to avoid digging into the mud.
                                                             Jim

    Depending on how the sheetrock was installed, (either horiz. or vert)
    the ends of the sheetrock (but end), is not tapered to accept the
    paper, or mud. Consequently, there will always be a bulge. However
    this can be minimized by a thin mud job, feathered out to a distance
    of 2 to 3 feet. *ALL* sheetrock walls (unless skincoated) have some
    degree of bulging at the bit ends.
    
    					-bd-

re-.1
I watched I guy hanging sheetrock I my parents home on a new addition he
 was hanging it horizontal I asked about the seam and how he would hide it.
He then showed me that the stud where the butt end nailed had been set back
about 3/16" which allowed a smooth joint without bulge.

-j

    
    3/16" stud setback...
    
    Great idea, but it requires an astounding bit of cooperation between
    the framer and the wall finisher, which will never happen unles they're
    one and the same person. (Framers usually have a warped sense of humor
    in ths regard.)
    
    This is too late to help the base note, but if you finish a butt joint
    with self-adhesive mesh joint tape and good wallboard trowel (slightly
    bowed), you'll wind up with a bulge of no more than 1/8" inch over
    18", which is virtually undetectable.

The framer and rock man were indeed the same person.

-j

RE:       3/16ths 
      
      Interesting.   However,  I  would  expect that the end-to-end butt
      joints would be staggered. i.e. the joint in the lower sheet would
      not line up with the joint in the upper sheet.  Oh well, different
      people, different ideas...
      
          Charlie

>RE:       3/16ths 
      
Not only that, but most of the walls I have made have sheet rock on both
sides of the wall, which means that if I were to do this I would have to
shave 3/8" off of every stud where a seam would occur?  HA, not me, brother.
Its enough work without adding more.  I believe its much less work to just
feather the mud at joints as mentioned in previous replies.

My $.02.
Chris

re .5:

I don't understand how a set-back stud solves the problem.  The situation
involves the butting of two non-tapered sheetrock ends.  Right?  And both
sheetrock ends are nailed to the same stud.  Right?  So they're still flush
to one another, with no taper.  Right?  So where's the advantage?

Perhaps I am missing something  here,  but  when I need to butt two sections on
non-tapered sheetrock, I just take the  knife  and  cut away 1+1/2" in from the
edge along the butt edge on both pieces.  Then tape the recessed sections.  The
resulting joint requires much less feathering and looks just fine.


               __tape
              /                
-------+===============+----------
       +------++-------+
sheet 1       ||  sheet 2
--------------++------------------
              ^^              
               butt joint
               
(I don't make my living from artistry)

Dave

    re.11
    
    	I don't understand - are you pulling the paper off the sheetrock?
    I didn't think it would come off that cleanly and not destroy the
    edge but it's a neat idea if it works.
    
    George

    RE: .10, sincew sheetrock is flexable, setting the stud back effect-
    ively puts the joint back in respect to the rest of the sheet, so that
    the end effect is similiar to a tapered joint.
    
    Eric

re                   <<< Note 3762.12 by SALEM::PAGLIARULO_G >>>

>    	I don't understand - are you pulling the paper off the sheetrock?
>    I didn't think it would come off that cleanly and not destroy the
>    edge but it's a neat idea if it works.

Yes.  I cleanly remove the paper.  It comes away fairly easily.  The best
way is to cut with  the  knife  blade (sharp) at an angle sloping down to
the  actual  sheetrock.   The trick  is  to  cut  before  you  mount  the
sheetrock, that way you can slice down on the top and in from the edge it
you  feel you need a clean cut there.    I  could  not  care  less  about
crumbling the edge since that is what I am going to be covering.

Dave

    But don't you run into a problem with screwing the edge of the rock
    to the stud?  Without the paper won't the screw just crumble the
    plaster?

    Here's a question:  When using blueboard, is anything done to the
    joints prior to the application of the skim coat?  I realize mesh
    tape is applied over the joints, but is anything like joint compound
    used over the tape to help level the recess between two panels so
    the skim coat doesn't follow the depressions?
    
    The reason I ask is that many of the ceiling surfaces in my existing
    house have what appear to be "valleys" where the panels meet; the
    ceiling plaster is textured, but the valleys are still quite visible
    when the light hits them.
    
    Did the plasterer skip a step here?  (Not suprising, as the builder
    seemed to employ the greenest and cheapest workers he could find.)
    The walls don't seem to be quite as bad, although there ARE some
    other joint problems.
    
    This is a several year old job, and I'm not looking to get it fixed.
    I'd just like a little info in the blueboard vs sheetrock comparison.

    re: .28
    
    Nope, I don't believe there's any special joint treatment (aside
    from applying mesh tape) prior to applying a plaster skimcoat.
    The plasterer who did our ceiling a year or two ago didn't do
    anything except put on the skimcoat, and he was a very particular
    and careful fellow.

Re: .28

The "valleys" are there because the person who applied the joint compound
was lazy and didn't put on enough coats to fill the join completely.
I have the same things in my house.

				Steve

    Re .30:
    
    The "pro" from .29 didn't use compound on the joints.  I am SURE
    blueboard was used, since I had never seen it before and asked
    them exactly WHAT that grayish-blue stuff was.  I'm confused;
    are you saying they SHOULD use compound on blueboard joints?

    RE: a few
    
    In my house the skimcoat was the only plaster used over the blueboard. 
    Plaster dowsn't shrink like compound so the need for many coats isn't
    there.  I have both flat and textured ceilings.  Neither show any
    joints.  If the plasterer was a bit too "green", he/she might not have
    had the tough to skim over these valleys just right.
    
    Dan

    When we had our addition skim coated, the plasterer FIRST coated
    all tape seams and INSIDE CORNERS (ceiling-wall, wall-wall), and
    then proceeded with his skim coat.  The ceilings were done in
    a smooth finish and there are NO valeeys or irregularities.
    

    I just got a spec sheet from US Gypsum which says they come
    in 8', 10' and 12' lengths.
    
    If you want a xerox, don't reply here -- I don't read very often --
    but I'm at SELECT::BOGATY.
    
    	Dan.
    

re .8

  If you can find a supply house that carries it, let me know!!!

  I just completed greenrocking my new 2nd bath with the 4 x 8's.  now to
  the tape/mud step!.

   Steve    

    I just finished applying my second coat of drywall compound on top
    of the first one and what do I find?  On some of the tapes (very few
    of them thankfully) there are bubbles under the drywall tape.  Most
    of them are only about 2-3 inches long.  One of them is about 9 inches
    long.
    
    What's the best way to get them out?
    
    I figured if I'd slice them with a razor blade and carefully fill them
    in with drywall compound, I should be alright.
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Mario

    Hi,
    Using the knife and recompounding is how I would fix it.  In the
    future save yourself this problem by using the mesh tape, and it's
    stronger too.
    
    Mark 

    Hi, has anyone ever sheetrocked right over duct work for a hot air
    system?  Can it be done?  I want to know if you can screw right into
    the ductwork and attach the sheetrock that way, or do you need to build a 
    wood framework and then screw to that?
    
    Any replies would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    Greg  

    
    You need to build a framework around it. First off the ductwork isn't
    strong enough the hold up sheetrock (especially a long run). Second
    you could get leaks. Third, the screws will heat up and could damage
    the drywall it's being screwed through. Fourth, you'll need different
    screws. And last it's probably against the building code 8*).
    
    Mike

    Thanks Mike, I called the Building Inspector and he said it is ok to
    screw the sheetrock directly to the duct work.  He said it is not a
    fire hazard or against the code.  I will be calling another inspector
    for another opinion tonight..
    
    Greg

    RE: .2
    
     There could be a problem with the ducts expanding and contracting
    with the heating cycles though...especially if your going to spackle ??
    

    The BEST way is to build a framework out of 1x2's (cheap lathing works
    well) with standard 16" spacing.  Then put in a thin layer of fiberglas
    insulation. Then put on the sheetrock.  The fiberglas does 2 things; it
    obviously helps keep heat in the ductwork, but it also absorbs the
    sounds or expansion and contraction.

    Are these ducts in a wall or something like ducts attached to a
    basement ceiling?  Since ducts in a wall should have studs on either side 
    anyway you shouldn't have to screw the sheetrock to the ducts.  If it's the
    ceiling case, I would be worried about movement of the ducts cracking all 
    that nice taping and mudding work that your going to have to do.  If you
    build a framework it will look good until you sell or tear it out.  If
    you screw the sheetrock to the ducts it might look good for 6 months.
    
    George

I'm planning to hang a shelf (with books total weight = ~ 75 lbs.) on a
partition between my kitchen and living room. The partition seems to be
very solid and is constructed of 3/4 inch wallboard, and I suppose,
studs or something else. Strangely enough, despite exploratory drilling
I can't locate any solid wood to screw into. I have found some particle
board type stuff behind the wallboard. 
	My question: If I use 4 large toggle or drywall bolts to anchor the 
shelf to the 3/4 inch wallboard, will that be enough? How much weight 
can a toggle bolt support?
	
	Dave

    3/4 " wallboard ????  Wow!!
    
    I've hung shelves on walls constructed of 3 layers of 3/8 gypsum
    board before ... as long as the cantilevered weight isn't too high
    it's ok ... the gypsum board does seem to handle fairly static sheer
    weights fairly well.  I.e. the majority of the weight sits as close
    as possible to the wall.
    
    Track mount shelves with U shaped rails will help because the load
    will be better distributed above and below the shelf.
    
    Stuart
    

    Have you tried knocking on the partition surface to "sound out" the
    location of the studs? Getting at least 1.5" of screw thread into the
    studs would make my mind rest easier with this kind of weight. Once you
    locate one stud, you can measure over 16" or 24" and usually find the
    rest of them. The toggle bolts _may_ do it but, using the studs would
    be a lot safer.
    dep

Stud finders are pretty reliable gadgets and they only cost about $10 with 
visual and audible indicators these days. If it were my house I wouldn't
trust toggle bolts to hold up a 75 lb shelf.  In fact my wife gets upset when 
I don't trust toggle bolts to hold up some of her hanging plants  and she has
to move them 12 inches or so so they screw into a stud.

just my $.02,

  John

    Is there a pocket door in this wall ????
    

	First, thanks for your responses!

	Yes, I have not only done the knocking routine, but have drilled 
where it sounded more solid. I have located no wood. 

>>Is there a pocket door in this wall ????
  
	I'm not sure what a pocket door is, but I'm guessing you mean a door 
piercing the partition at one point?

	Dave

Could the partition have been framed with those metal studs, the ones used in
office buildings (like ours)?

Pete

    My usual trick is to slide a magnet along the wall.  That should find
    nail/screw heads, indicating there's (likely) a stud at that point.  If
    the wall is framed with metal studs (unlikely, but possible), then the
    magnet should detect them, too.  Note that the magnet won't jump out of
    your hand and cling to the right spot, but you should feel a slight
    pulling when you get near metal.
    
    I have a small high-power magnet that works great for this.  If you get
    stuck, send me mail and I'll see if I can dig up an extra one.
    
    /Don

One other trick for finding studs, either metal or wood.....

Drill a small (1/16th or 3/32nds) hole low on the wall, near one side and 
angled towards where the next stud should be. Then straighten out a coat 
hanger (wire obviously!) and use it to probe for the next stud. When you 
hit a solid object, and can't get by it, then you have a stud. Hold the 
wire where it enters thewall, withdraw the wire and remeasure on the 
outside of the wall to see where the stud is. Mark the wall and you can then 
drill for your bolts to anchor to the studs. Patch your first hole....

----------------------------------------------
||<stud				||<stud #2
||				||
-----/-----------------------------------------
    / <drill hole here at acute angle towards stud #2


    Vic 

    Dave, I note that you work in ZK.  Me too.  I'd be glad to loan you
    my electronic stud finder.  No nail need to be present for it to find
    the studs.  - Vick
    
    P.S.  They aren't very expensive.

    It is quite possible for the wall to be framed without timber or nails.
    
    I once encountered a wall built like this ....
    
         Z|X|
      |X| |X| |X|
      |X| |X|O|X|
      |X| |X| |X|
      |X|O|X| |X|
      |X| |X| |X|
    
       ^   ^   ^
     3 sheets of gypsum board
    
    Z is a wood batten to which the Middle sheet of plaster board is nailed
      (one at the ceiling, one at the floor)
    
    O are random blobs of a glue impregnated plaster
    
    It was difficult to find the blobs of plaster and everything had to be
    hung with wall plugs that went through 2 layers of plaster board.
    
    I have hung shelves on a wall like this using the adjustable shelves
    and also by affixing vertical battens to distribute the cantilevered
    weight.  The vertical sheer weight at the wall is not a problem unless
    the load is very "dynamic" ... i.e. you're picking heavy books off and
    returning them too the shelf every few minutes of the day.
    
    Stuart

    I suppose it's also possible that the space was originally all one
    room and someone just partitioned it off with 3/4" sheetrock. If
    *I* were going to do a hack job, I'd use 3/4" sheetrock instead of
    using 1/2" sheetrock and studs. But, of course, the thought never
    crossed my mind.
    

    If the wall has any outlets, the box usually is attached to a stud on
    one side. Remove the cover plate (be careful if the outlet is hot), and
    look for a stud one one side of the box.
    
    Eric

	Thanks to all for the replys. I did find the studs by removing 
cover plates on outlet boxes. It turns out that they are not consistent 
bottom to top of the partition. 

	Dave

    As .8 noted, the bits have a 1/8th inch shank and will fit in a
    Dremel tool.  An adapter is also available which has a 1/4th
    inch shank to fit an electric drill or a standard router; the
    spiral bit is clamped to the adapter by a hex setscrew.  Any
    drywall supply company should have these; I saw them at
    Congress Supply in Nashua, NH.
    
    The bits do a good job, but they are a little hard to control
    in the Dremel tool; you have to be very careful to hold the bit
    against the side of the box when making the cutouts, or it will
    wander.

    Porter-Cable makes a
    
    	Drywall Cutout Single Flute bit
    	Router Bit No.  43218
    
    	1/4 shank
    	3/16 cut
    	1 1/2 depth
    
    I bought one ($7.00 at Force Machinery in NJ) but have NOT used it yet.
    
    Was using a panelling bit in a Sears 1 1/2 horse router and it worked
    well.  Bit dulled quickly - 10 box cutouts and 10 high-hat overhead
    lights.
    
    Will report when I've tried it.
    
    	-Barry-
    

I was in Somerville Lumber the other day and saw a new product which caught
my eye.  It was a drywall material called Gypsonite.  It's made out of
"reclaimed" gypsum and recycled paper fibers, and supposedly has several
interesting properties:

	1.  It is stronger than standard gypsum drywall, due to the
	    fibers, and resists cracking and breaking.  It can be nailed
	    with a pneumatic nailer.

	2.  Its sound-absorbing qualities are better than gypsum drywall.

	3.  It's water-resistant.

	4.  The surface provides a plaster-like appearance - no need for
	    skimcoat.

They offer an unusual system for finishing the joints, which doesn't use 
tape.  The first step comes in a caulking-gun tube, and you use it to fill
in the crack between sheets.  Then there's a tub of a compound which you
use to fill in the bevel.  Supposedly, you need far less than you would
joint compound.  The instructions said you could also use standard tape
and compound if you wanted to.

The price per sheet seemed no higher than standard drywall.

I don't have an immediate use for this stuff, but when the time comes, I will
certainly give it a try.  The promotional material said that it was popular
in Europe (though made in the US).  Has anyone used Gypsonite and can
comment on the manufacturer's claims?

					Steve

    Haven't used it, but have requested further details from the
    distributor, Furman Lumber I think.
    
    Over the phone, they couldn't give specifics on things like sheet
    weight or what type of gun/nail/pressure is recommended -- sending
    that.
    
    The other neat thing about the stuff is they say that 8 x 12 sheets
    are a stock size (talk about cutting down on taping!), although
    Slummerville carries 4 x 8 only, and that longer lengths are available.
    
    Only drawback is the cost, which is not the same as sheetrock.  Rock
    ranges from about 12 to 15 cents per square foot delivered.  This stuff
    is 30 cents per sq foot picked up (phone quote).
    

I noticed a mention of Gypsonite in the August Popular Science, saying that
the manufacturer (in Rhode Island) had started full production, and that
they had reported on it in their "Best of What's New '89" in 1989.

As for cost, the 4x8x1/2 sheets Somerville had were going for $5.98, 
which is under .19/SF, and that's with free delivery.  I've paid more than
that for MR gypsum board.

				Steve

    I'm helping a friend redo a new house and we will be trying this
    in the kitchen first.  So far we have found ou the following:
    *More expensive than std sheetrock- 3.50 vs 5.50 a sheet(Approximately)
    *Not available in larger than 4x8 sheets except by special order
     in the north of boston area anyway Grossmans,SL,HQ.
    *The sheets feel heavier, but I don't know if they really are
    *Right now we plan to use drywall screws and guns
    
    I'll let you know after we put some up.
    Saul

>    The other neat thing about the stuff is they say that 8 x 12 sheets
>    are a stock size (talk about cutting down on taping!), although
>    Slummerville carries 4 x 8 only, and that longer lengths are available.
    
      8 x 12 sound pretty unmanageable. You couldn't get it through most
      doors and windows, it would be awfully heavy to put  up,  and  I'd
      think that it would break easily.  Are you sure you don't mean 4 x
      12?
      
      Regular  4  foot  wide  sheetrock is available in lengths up to at
      least  16  feet.   12  foot  lengths  are  common  in   new   home
      construction.   Gorossmans, Summervill and the like may carry only
      4 x 8 size, but building supply places that deal with professional
      sheetrockers  will  have  the  longer sizes.  Or check with places
      that specialize in sheetrocking supplies.  (Check you  phone  book
      under Dry Wall Contractors' Equipment & Supplies.)

Didn't Norm and Steve look at this stuff when they went to some home show? 
(the show where they had a contest on who could build something the fastest...)
I though I remember Norm saying 'see who easy it is to do the seams'.

Brian

    Nope, the guy I talked to at the number listed in the brochure said
    8 x 12.  That's why I asked about weight of the sheets.  As for getting
    the sheets in, I'd guess only with new construction and while things
    are open enough to do so.  You usually can't get 14 foot sheets of rock
    through too many places in existing construction and sometimes the 
    windows are not really an option.
    
    I'll post whatever good stuff comes from what they send me.
    

    There was an article in my local paper about this stuff.
    Regular 1/2" 4x8 wallboard weighs 56-62 pounds. There is or was two
    different gysonite boards. The newer has perlite in it to reduce
    weight. The older type weighs 96 pounds, the newer 72 pounds.
    

    Well we bought 10 sheets this weekend to put up on a kitchen ceiling.
    It definitely is heavier than sheetrock.  We built a T brace out of
    2x4 although we only needed it for the first 2 sheets.  Gypsonite is
    not as flexible as sheetrock, the first sheet we were putting up on
    a 10 foot high ceiling split in half.  After that we were a little 
    more careful about being closer to the center.  The gypsonite cuts
    much like plywood, we used a jig saw to cut notches in the ends and
    holes for recessed lighting and it can then be filed smooth.  It 
    seems to take fewer screws than sheetrock to make it secure.  We
    haven't tried the joints yet.  
    By the way we bought this at Somerville Lumber who had it for $5.99
    a sheet.  We told SL that Grossmans had it for $5.29 a sheet and the
    salesman called and gave us Grossmans price.  
    We haven't found anyone that can answer installation questions like
    how many tubes of caulk you need for the joints.
    
    Saul
    

Here's the text from the Gypsonite brochure I picked up at Somerville Lumber.
They also have a display showing the joint method, and it does look like it
results in a smooth and non-obvious joint.

				Steve

Introducing Gyspsonite.  The Got-It-All Wallboard.
Better to Build With Because...

It's better for the environment.

Gypsonite is made of natural materials, including cellulose fibers and gypsum.
It's much stronger than ordinary drywall because the gypsum is reinforced
throughout with cellulose fibers.  As a result, it's moisture and fire
resistant, with better sound deadening properties.

Highland American's source for cellulose fiber is recycled newspapers.  The
other key ingredient is natural gypsum, an abundant mineral.  Highland
American will indirectly help reduce acid rain by also utilizing recovered
gypsum to make Gypsonite.

Newspapers and other paper products represent 40% of the waste that's choking
our planet.  But take those newspapers and mix them with gypsum and you
create a superior building material that's made of natural materials.

It's the first breakthrough in drywall in over 70 years.

Gypsonite is the first gypsum fiberboard manufactured in North America.  But
it's already a big hit in Europe.  Since its introduction in 1982, Gypsum
Fiberboard has captured 25% of the German wallboard market.

To produce Gypsonite in this country, Highland American has built a
technologically advanced manufacturing facility in Rhode Island that will
consume 50 million newspapers a year - newspapers which would otherwise
be dumped into America's landfills.

No taping required.

Installing Gypsonite is fast and easy because there's no taping required!
Instead, you use a two-step joint system.  Applications of the Gypsonite
Step 1 Base and Step 2 Finish Compounds dry to form a stronger joint
than conventional wallboard.  When sanded, the result is a smooth, solid
wall with the feel of a genuine plaster wall.. not a lot of pieces taped
together.  (Tape and traditional compound can also be used.)

It's naturally fire resistant.

Gypsonite's solid construction can be a life saver.  Because of its unique
formulation, Gypsonite is highly fire resistant.

Solid material.  Solid advantages.

Because Gypsonite is a solid material - not gypsum layered with paper - it
offers numerous advantages over conventional wallboard.

Unlike conventional paper-faced wallboard, Gypsonite can also be installed
with a pneumatic staple or nail gun in wood stud applications.

Its superior nail and screw holding capabilities eliminate the need for
special wall anchors for hanging pictures or small shelves.

Gypsonite is versatile.  It can be used for walls and ceilings.  Special
versions of Gypsonite can be used for floor underlayment, tile backer or
laminating base.

Its sound deadening properties make it ideal for nurseries, garages and
activity rooms.

Gypsonite can be used to create interesting architectural details.


Available in:

	Wallboard, Tile backer board, Exterior grade board, Floor
	underlayment board, Laminating substrate

Available thicknesses: 3/8", 7/16", 1/2", 5/8"

Standard sizes: 4'x8', 4'x10', 4'x12', up to 8'x12' and odd lengths by
	special order.

For more information, contact:

	Gypsonite Department
	Furman Lumber, Inc.
	P.O, Box 130
	Nutting Lake, MA 01865
	1-800-843-9663
	(in MA, 1-508-670-3800)

    Well of the 11 sheets we bought 8 have been installed, 2 broke while
    being carried or put up.  I called the distributor and they confirmed
    that Gypsonite is not as flexible as sheetrock.  Other details:
    Screws should be spaced 12 inches apart on ceilings and 16 inches on
    walls. To figure how much of their compound you need they said,
    6-10oz tubes of #1 and 3-1 gallon buckets of #2 for 10 sheets of
    4x8.  Cutting can be done the same way as sheetrock, although we
    have found this leaves a jagged edge and uses about 1 blade for every
    4x8 sheet.  The jagged edge can be filed down with a rasp.  We
    have had better success with a Sabre Saw.  We haven't tried joints
    yet.  More latter.....
    
    Saul 

I'm also curious as to how you're supposed to finish joints where one or
both sides aren't tapered.  I imagine you feather it as you would
Sheetrock.

			Steve

If I remember correctly, in Europe gypsum has been used as building material 
that came from SO2 scrubbers in coal-burning power plants. This gypsum has 
a Radon problem because of uranium traces present in coal.

Before buying Gypsonite, you may want to be sure they have used natural gypsum,
and not reclaimed gypsum from coal-burning power plants, or you may get
yourself a nasty Radon problem!

Date

I noticed that Builders Square now carries Gypsonite.

			Steve

this is related to my note on metpay insurance regarding water damage.
i'll update that in the near future.

i am now faced with sheetrock/plaster repair and have a matchup problem to 
work out.  the old wall is 1/2" sheetrock, 1/4" roughcoat, 1/8" skimcoat.  
this equals ~7/8".  it appears that i have no choice but to repair with a 
double layer of 3/8" sheetrock and finish with 1/8" skimcoat.

is this normal?
is it something i can do?  (it's ~6'x2' but skimcoating has a reputation.)
what do i use?  joint compound?  (it shrinks, yes?)

-craig

    The double layer of 3/8 sheetrock would work.  For that small an area,
    you could also shim out some 1/2" rock with 1/4" lattice.  Since you
    have to buy a whole 4x8 sheet anyway, doubling up the 3/8 stuff is
    probably better.
    
    If you have never skim coated before, then definitely use joint
    compound.  Joint compound gives you a much longer working time, and can
    easily be sanded or wet sponged to smooth out your inevitable rough
    edges.  The premixed stuff doesnt' shrink noticably.
    
    Figure on a couple of applications with some sanding or sponging in 
    between.
    
    It's really not too bad a job, although I wouldn't want to do a large
    area that way.  It will make you appreciate just what skill a plasterer
    has.
    
    Bob

to update my reply (.22) and ask more questions...

i found that the old wall is "rock lathe", rough coat, skim coat.  rock lathe 
is like 1'x10' 3/8" sheetrock put up horizontally.  so my repair hole has to 
match up to a 3/4" wall thickness.  so i decided to to get 5/8" sheetrock 
(fire code sheetrock?) and then have someone skim coat the remaining 1/8".

my questions are:

    did i screw up by using this sheetrock?  it is just gray not blue.  other 
notes seem to suggest that skim coat must go over blueboard.

    how will the skim coater blend in the seams?  the surrounding wall is 
painted and stops abruptly.  also, other notes seem to suggest that skim coat 
can't go over paint.

thanks for any input,  (those other notes are 3059 and 1609.2)
craig 

re: 2680.3 -< 3/4 inch is to large >-

    >He recommended to me that I fill the large gaps with slivers of
    >wall board, nail them in if possible or jam in. This will give the
    >compound something to adhere to. Skim coating can cover a lot of
    >sins but it is not panacea for all evils.

    Two Items: One Hint:
    Hint: Recently I read that if you use panel adhesive before putting 
    up the 'board, it would hold better, retain its better until you fill
    it with screws (or other fasteners). I would assume one could also do
    this with those bits of blueboard used  as fillers.
    
    
    Problem: (Question, really):
    Sheetrock Screws: I have a problem in getting my Sheetrock screws 
    to go all the way through the old ceiling nicely, and all the way
    into the cross beams.
    
    I find that as I put the screws in (using an electric drill fitted
    with a 'dimpler'); as soon as the little buggers hit the old ceiling
    they begin to wobble a bit, an enlarging the hole in the blue board.
    
    The next problem, as the 2 1/2" screws go into the beams (where beam
    is 150 year old hunk of well seasoned wood 4" x 6") they just do not
    go all the way in. Even a hand screw driver won't sink them in all the
    way (some of them, only about 60%).
    
    What would be the workaround to get the screws to go all the way in ?
    
    Initially, I felt that with the standard 2" screws, they'd only have
    about a 1/4" penetration to the beams, after passing through the old 
    plaster and lathing.
    
    Bob
    
    
    

    
    

    Try a little soap on the threads. Its worked for me.
    

    Sopa on threads is NOT a good idea if you want to keep the material up
    there for more then couple years.  Soap has a habit of causing the wood 
    to shrink around it as it ages which will eventually leave you with loose 
    screws which can vibrate out. They used to suggest using soap on nails
    to avoid splitting wood when hammering but it caused the same type of
    problem and after a couple of years the holes would enlarge because the 
    wood would shrink and the nails would literally fall out.
    
    The only solution I can think of is either a more powerful screw-gun...
    or pilot holes for the screws.  
    
    Skip

    Re: Soap
    
    I would think that on a 150 year old house,the wood would have "aged"
    by now.
    
    Marc H.

    Yes, you would think so wouldn't you?  However when the soap ages it
    causes the fibers to contract and the older the wood is, the pronounced 
    it becomes.  This was discussed some years ago in Mechanic's
    Illustrated or Popular Science... I'm not sure which.  And the basic 
    chemicals in soap haven't changed in the last 5 years or so that I'm
    aware of.
    
    SKip

How about candle wax?

    Don't know, they didn't discuss candle wax in the article, just the use
    of soap as a cure for splitting out wood and making screws easier to
    work with.  Also as a 'lubricate" for drawer runners.  Although I
    wouldn't see any real problem there.  
    
    I would guess that candle wax would work okay.  
    
    Skip

The problem is that the wood is so tough, the screws can't go in. I think
a stronger screw driver will just break the screws. Since the idea behind
screws is they hold better than nails - and you don't have that problem -
why don't you go back to nails?

Mickey.

    
    My uncle was a shipwright who used to do beautiful work with hardwoods.
    He always used beeswax to lubricate screws. It is softer than a bar of
    soap and easier to get the wax on the screw. IT doesn't harm the wood,
    either. It is MUCH easier to use than candle wax. If your local harware
    store doesn't have it,I've purchased it sewing shops (used to lubricate
    thread), as well as your btter hobby shops-it is used to wax the
    rigging lines on ship models to keep down the dust catching "fuzz"
    
    Dick
    

Dick,


As I recall, my father kept a stick of beeswax handy for just that purpose.  
I never really thought about it before, but it makes sense and is easier to use 
then regular candle wax.  It also comes in handy for waxing rope or line when 
twisting it into a thicker piece.  

Skip

	I'm looking for galvanized deck screws, 2" x #8 or heavier.

	I bought a bunch of #6, but they're so feeble, they break before
	they countersink flush (in PT).  I bought them at Home Depot.

	Several places around Nashua carry only #6 (Hammar, Osgood, Currier,
	County, Chagnon).  I'll keep phoning around, but does anyone know
	who sells 2" x #8 or beefier, anywhere near So. N.H., or mailorder?

	Regards, Robert.

	I found 2" by #8 galvanized deck screws at Grossman's Nashua.

	That's right, "Grossman's".

	These things are sold under the name PowerDrive, made in Taiwan, packed
	in a cute plastic pail made in California.  (I wonder, do we ship 
	plastic pails to Taiwan, or do we have people in California carefully
	counting deck screws into the pails?)

	rd

	PS  You know, if Home Depot doesn't squash Grossman's, that damn
	median barrier in the highway will.  You can't turn left into their
	yard; you have to go to the next lights and make a Uturn against
	dumbos turning right on red.  When you start your own retail outlet,
	remember that.

>>	PS  You know, if Home Depot doesn't squash Grossman's, that damn
>>	median barrier in the highway will.  You can't turn left into their
>>	yard; you have to go to the next lights and make a Uturn against
>>	dumbos turning right on red.  When you start your own retail outlet,
>>	remember that.

	Instead of doing that,  go through the EXXON station to Grossmans.
	Of course,  right now,  it's all dug up so it'll be a little hard.
	
	Garry

    I was going to stop at Grossman's Sunday, but just kept going
    instead... Voila! Home Depot...
    
    Edd

    How about shorter screws?! 2 1/2 inch screws to hold sheetrock
    seems like a bit of over kill 1 or 1 1/2 should hold just fine
    I would thing the screw head would pull through before the threads
    let go even if you only had 3/8ths into the stud/beam.
    
    -j

    
    RE  A few replies back,
    
    		Try Holt lumber on RT 111 in Hollis NH, just before the
    Pepperell/Hollis line. He stocks alot of different sizes.
    
    	PL

    
    I tried to find some mention of Gypsonite doing a search and
    found no reference, so I'll give you my experiences with this
    new product.
    
    Gypsonite, is a new product to the U.S., has been in Europe for
    decades.  It is like sheetrock, except it is made out of recycled
    newspaper and gypsum.  It comes in 1/2", 4x8 sheets, 76 pounds.
    
    It appears brittle, but it works great.  It is advertised as 
    requiring only one sanding.  Well, we put it up in our kitchen
    ceiling.  You use a "Step 1" product for the seams.  It is applied
    in a caulking gun.  It is grainy and dries hard as rock.  Then you
    apply the "Step 2" which is like joint compound, except it is softer.
    You put the "Step 2" over the seams and nail holes.  You don't have
    to be real smooth and neat, since it is soft and easy to sand.
    One sanding was all that we needed.  It looks great.  Part of the
    secret is the beveled edges.  The sheet comes with 4 beveled edges.
    If you cut a sheet, you need to run a belt sander along the cut 
    edges and create a bevel.  It is easy, but messy.  It cuts with a
    razor knife and saw, just like sheetrock.  However, if you break it,
    you can bevel the edge with the sander and put it up.  Can't do that
    with sheetrock.  
    
    It goes up with sheetrock screws or nails.  They advertise that you
    can use a pneumatic stapler or nail gun.  We just used screws.  They
    also advertise that you can easily hang objects without using special
    molly-bolts or wall anchors.  
    
    It is available at Grossmans and Somerville Lumber.  We bought it
    at Somerville lumber.  I think we were to first to buy it.  They 
    couldn't find it in the warehouse.  It costs around $5.99.  The
    Step 1 is a bit expensive and the Step 2 is available in 1 gallon and
    5 gallon containers.  It costs a few bucks more than joint compound.
    
    By the way.... we had already put sheetrock on our kitchen walls.
    We used joint compound for the gypsonite ceiling/sheetrock wall seam
    as the first layer.  Sanded it, and then used the Step 2.  It worked
    great.  However, from now on, we are a gypsonite family.  We are
    so encouraged we are doing the ceilings in the livingroom and
    diningroom this weekend.  If you want more information on it, give
    me a call or a note, and I can give you the 1-800 number.  (No, I
    am not a distributor), just someone happy to avoid continuous mudding
    and sanding...
    
    ..rke
    

    Hmm - couldn't have looked TOO hard, like in 1111.76 which lists the
    notes with the PLASTERING&SHEETROCK keyword.  If you had, you would
    have found note 4302.
    
    				Steve
    
    P.S.  Mods, feel free to delete this when you move the base note.

    For those who are interested:  Gypsonite is showing up in the
    surplus&seconds market these days... I've seen it (in Massachusetts)
    in Grossman's Bargain Outlet and Howlett's Bargain Bay.  About
    $2/sheet in both places.
    
    Methinks it hasn't exactly made a splash because (a) it's heavier than
    regular wallboard, (b) it's more brittle (the paper covering does
    wonders to hold regular Sheetrock(R) together...), and (c) it requires
    a "new, improved" finishing system that carpenters and DIY-ers are
    less familiar with.
    
    I evaluated it while shopping for something to re-do my library ceiling
    with.  I ended up getting good-ole gypsum wallboard...
    
    --jim
    

    Furthermore, Gypsonite is ONLY available in 4x8 sheets, according to Furman
    Lumber (they are the local distributer, who supplies everyone else).
    
    The 4x10 and 4x12 sure make things go faster with regular drywall.
    
    %Joel
    

    My sister is having her basement finished, and they are using
    gypsonite. The person doing the work is not a pro, but a DIY'er
    who's giving them an excellent price.
    The drywalling is going very slow, and this person would probably
    not use it again (at least at the quoted price!). The stuff certainly
    seems like a good product - just not from a labor standpoint!
    
    John

I'm having some work done in one of my bathrooms and I asked the carpenter
to use Gypsonite.  He initially agreed, but asked if he could use MR Sheetrock
instead, as he'd read an article in a trade journal which described it as
very hard to work with.

I still think it's a promising product, but it clearly requires a different
approach to use it.  I'd still like to try it out - someday...

			Steve

	Well...I just put up seven sheets of gypsonite in a room that I had
	already started with regular sheetrock.  My perceptions are the
	following:

	1) Definately heavier than sheetrock.  I wouldn't try to carry two
	   of these around!

	2) It's harder to cut.  I could not cut it with a regular sheetrock
	   knife.  As a matter of fact I ended up using a jigsaw to cut it.
	   Maybe I didn't have to go to this extreme, but it kept down the
	   frustration factor.

	3) The first finish step, which is applied like caulking dries very
	   hard.  Make sure you don't put much excess on because it doesn't
	   sand very well.  The second coat is easier than regular sheetrock
	   since there is no tape to get in the way.  With a six inch knife
	   you should be able to finish it in one coat.

	4) It is more brittle.  A broke one piece by accident when I was 
	   tipping it up longways by myself.  I had cut a hole for an 
	   electri outlet in the piece and it busted right there.

 	What I also found is that the step one compound seems to work well
	on regular sheetrock.  I had a couple of unfinished joints on which
	I tried it.  This could possibly be an alternative to tapeing.

	Right now I'm not sure whether I would use it again or not.  Probably
	not... 

	_gary

I have two very small peeling ceilings -- one is about 3' X 4', the other about
2' X 3�'.  Rather than going through the agony of removing the paint, I'm
thinking of putting up new sheetrock ceilings.  I've never sheetrocked, but
since there are no joints, I figure it should be pretty easy.

Given the small size, is it reasonable for one person to simply hold up the
sheetrock while another screws it in (i.e. how much does a 3' X 4' sheet
weigh)?  How should I deal with the joint between the ceiling and the walls
(which are horsehair plaster)?  I'm obviously going to need very little
joint compound -- is it available in smaller quantities than 5-gallon tubs?

I think having one person hold up the panel while the other attaches it should
be fine.  And yes, joint compound is available in small (one-gallon) tubs,
though you'll pay nearly as much as you would for a five-gallon (62 pound)
tub.

Pay careful attention to taping the edges.

			Steve

Wouldn't it be better to simply scrape the paint and repaint?

Ed..

I've scraped a lot of it off, but it's like Zeno's paradox -- I don't think
I'll ever get done.  I'm sure that if I paint over the remaining paint,
it'll peel off over the next few months or years.

Getting back to the question of how to handle the joint between the ceiling
and the walls, is it better to tape it or put up molding?  Is there any
problem getting the tape and joint compound to stick to a painted plaster
wall (semi-gloss)?

You will have to sand the wall before the tape and joint compound will stick.
You might consider using tape designed for corners - I've used some which has
metal strips on a paper backing, though I don't recommend it.  I think I'd
suggest folded paper tape or mesh tape instead.  Whether or not you want to
use a corner moulding is your choice.

				Steve

    
    You might want to make a "pusher" to help hold up the boards - just a
    long 2x2 with a crosspiece as a giant "T".   Make it about 2" shorter
    than room height, push the board up into place and kick a short piece
    of 2x4 underneath.
    
    I wonder if it will be necessary to make a tape joint at the wall? With
    an older building, the chances are that you will not be able to get the
    boards flush to the wall at all points, unles you scribe them in.  So
    you'll have to fill some voids before you can make a taped joint - and
    it's going to be hard work to make a neat inside corner.
    
    You might want to cut a rebate in the the existing wall plaster to slot
    in the board edge. then you simply have to use finish plaster to make
    the joint.  There might be a bit of shrinkage cracking, but nothing
    that can't be fixed with a spot of spackling.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

Well, since the question was one of sheetrocking because you didn't want to 
scrape and re-paint, it seems like you are looking for the easiest solution 
that looks ok.

Put up the sheetrock as best you can, and use a small cove or corner round
pine molding around the edges.  Paint the bare sheetrock with sandpaint.
(before you put the molding up, of course) You won't need any joint compound 
because you won't have any joints.

Should take about an hour + or - the DIY factor, and will look ok if you 
choose your molding wisely.

Bob

    
    I did my small bathroom last year. I used 3/8" sheetrock. I used 2"
    drywall screws and screwed thru the new sheetrock, old ceiling and into
    the strapping above. I actually cut holes in the old ceiling to find
    the strapping. I used sticky corner tape for the joints between the 
    ceiling and walls and then added joint compound. A light sanding finished 
    the job. The walls were painted sheetrock. No shrinking or cracks yet.
    
                                                    Bill

    There's a product called Texture-Off that is made to remove texture
    paint from ceilings but will also remove any latex paint.  I used it to
    remove the texture paint from my bedroom ceiling and it worked well. 
    If I had to choose between muddling and taping vs scraping paint I'd
    choose the paint scraping.  I think with the Texture -Off it would be
    easier.
    
    George

    By the way the texture paint was over the bare sheetrock, not a
    plaster skim coat.
    
    George

Texture-Off is discussed in note 9.  As it happens, I'm in the middle of
a job using it right now and will write up my remarks when I'm done.

				Steve

I assume that some of the paint on my ceilings is oil paint (the house was
built in 1934), so Texture-Off probably wouldn't work.  The only reason
I'm considering using sheetrock is that there are no joints.  If I use
moldings, there'll be no taping at all.

    If you get reasonably close to the walls (tight is best) with the
    new ceiling, simply use a paintable latex caulk for the inside corners.
    A wet finger and a handy rag finish the job.  No taping required and
    no molding either.  As for the screw holes, use spackle, not mud.
                                                

re .95:

I like those ideas, particularly because I don't want to buy 5 gallons of
mud to fill in 2 dozen screw holes, and I'd rather not use molding.

Are there any contrary views?

Won't this end up in the "Why did they do this?" note?  It seems like alot of
work to avoid cleaning up the ceiling.  You could always spackle the bare spots
on the ceiling to make a smoot ceiling.  I am sure this would be more work, but
might look better.

Ed..

Why not scrape off the paint?  I said in an earlier reply that it's like
Zeno's paradox -- every time I scrape it, I get some more off, but it
seems that it'll never end.  I'm looking for a less frustrating solution
than scraping, spackling, painting, and watching it peel off.

Another possibility is to put up ceiling tiles.  Depends on your taste.
It would solve the problem without having to do the sheetrock/mud/sand/paint
process.  HQ has the stuff, you could do an average room for around $75-100.
It's the least messy solution, but certainly not the cheapest.
SJ

Ceiling tiles, yuck!  As I mentioned in my original note, these are two
tiny ceilings -- one 4X8 sheet of wallboard will do both, and there'll be
no seams to tape.

    
    This seems a good place to post my own personal review of a new and
    "improved" mud.
    
    It's Sheetrock brand Lightweight Joint Compound "+3", from USG. Among
    the alleged improvements:
    
      o  lighter weight
      o  easier to use
      o  less shrinkage
      o  quicker drying
    
    I'm close to finishing the drywall on a 400-ft� addition (extend one
    room, add family room with cathedral ceiling), but of course I ran out
    of mud, so I picked up a pail of this new stuff, which the salesperson
    said was $2 more but was supposed to be lighter and eaiser to use.
    I've used a little less than half the bucket, and I'm ready to report
    on the "improvements":
    
    
      o  lighter weight
    
      The bucket was noticeably lighter when I picked it up in the store.
      It was also noticeably smaller when I put it down next to the one I
      was almost finished with. I've always called the tradition pail 5 gal,
      although on looking I see no volume measure. The new pail is 4.5 gal.
      On the other hand, both claim to cover 180 linear feet of seam.
    
      o easier to use
    
      NOT! It's much stiffer than the old mud. This means you have to use a
      lot more muscle when striking off a surface, especially with the large
      knife. 
    
      It's also *full* of air (see "lighter weight" above). The old mud has
      some air bubbles, but I can work them out with a couple of strokes while
      applying, so the strike-off is smooth. Craters were rampant in the
      finished surface with the new stuff. Even where I was able to work
      out the craters, the dried surface was much rougher than with the
      old mud.
    
      o  less shrinkage
    
      I believe this is true; I saw less cracking in a thick application, and
      the screw holes didn't show through as much on the first application.
    
      However, it seems to be less dense and much softer when dry; I usually
      knock off high spots with the small knife before the next coat, but this
      resulted in gouging with the new stuff.
     
      o  quicker drying
      
      Too close to call, which means it doesn't make a difference either way.
      In fact, they would need to just about halve the drying time to make
      any improvement in the application process.
    
    
    Interesting enough, the ingredients list for both products reads
    exactly the same. My guess is they made all these "improvements" by
    adding less water and more air.
    
    After two totally frustrating evenings, I sealed the bucket for the
    last time and bought a pail of the old stuff. If anyone's interested
    in picking up a half-pail in either Townsend, MA or TAY1, free-for-nothing,
    to run their own tests, send mail.
    
    My advice to USG -- dump this garbage and invest your research dollars
    in an adjustable angle corner knife.
    

>>Ceiling tiles, yuck!  As I mentioned in my original note, these are two
>>tiny ceilings -- one 4X8 sheet of wallboard will do both, and there'll be
>>no seams to tape.

Good luck cutting and then trying to lift the single piece into place!  I tried
this in a very small hallway once.  You would be amazed at the variations in
the width of the hallway!  Ended up needing to make things a little smaller and
patching up the corners.

bjm

    With all of this repeated ceiling paint peeling, maybe the orginal
    covering was that calcimine (?) stuff that wreaks havoc with the
    adhesion of latex paint?

I was just going to say that.  We helped a friend with their bathroom once, and
the ceiling was painted with calcimine.  You need to take a heat gun to it and
scrape it off... easy, but messy.  Then start from scratch.

Elaine

p.s.  They ended up using the sheetrock because it was faster.  They had a pro
(my husband) helping them, though.

>>calcimine

A good coat of oil based ceiling paint will cover over and seal this stuff.  
I think one paint manf. (maybe Calif?) makes a ceiling paint specificly for
this.

There was something else used for ceilings (my grandfater used it on all the
ceilings in my parents house) that was like a think layer of chalk.  It washed
off with a great deal of work!

bjm

I used to think it was calcimine, but water doesn't seem to affect it.

I realize that the ceiling's not going to be square, so I'll make a template
out of brown wrapping paper.

    I am looking for something I guess would be called a Vacuum sandinf
    pole.
    
    I saw one used at the MILL one day a couple years ago but have never
    seen one in a store or catalog.  It looks like a regular drywall
    sanding pole and head except that the "pole" part is a long pipe, which
    attached to the hose of a "Shop Vac".   As you sand the dust
    immediately gets sucked through the sanding screen up the pipe and into
    the vaccum.  It did not look like a "home made" set up, so I assume
    someone manufactures them.  Can anyone give me a direction to go to
    fine one of these little marvels.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Paul

    Hmmm...I would expect the dust to clog the vacuum's filter in short
    order.  My experience has been that shop vacs don't do well with
    very fine dust.  Sawdust and chips, yes; fine dust, no.

    I have seen this very recentlys - either at Somerville Lumber (westboro
    store) or Home Quarters (shrewsbury), it included a sealable bucket in
    which you filled with water that trapped the plaster dust before it
    got to the shop vac.
    

    Thanks, I'll give them both a try this week.
    
    Paul

Another drywall question (an easy one, I think), for an old note.  

The drywall is all up, and there are about a zillion (especially on the ceiling)
little dimples where the screws are.  Also some of them are more like holes
than dimples, since I was a little too agressive with the screw gun (it was
such fun just pushing the trigger & watching the screw almost jump into the
drywall, I guess I got carried away a little!).

How do I fill them?  I've tried just pushing the compound into the hole/dimple
itself, filing it completely, with none going into the area outside of the
dimple.  It's extremely simple/fast, with no feathering involved, but I have my
doubts on whether it will hold.  I can envision little gobs of compound falling
out a few years down the road.

Would it be better to do the feathering, three coats, etc. on each hole?

There's been lots of comment here on how to do drywall joints, but how about
a few on the very simple subject of filling the dimples?

Thanks,

*Joel

    Do both. On your first pass do what you've done' fill the hole. When
    that's dry do the feathering. 
    
    You *will* see the holes if you paint without feathering. 
    
    It's easy enough, and surface prep is THE most important part... 
    
    Edd

	I'm going to be tiling a bath enclosure tomorrow.  The walls are 
wonderboard and, after reading this file, I was going to use a thin set mortar 
to set the tiles but the people at Tile City say that's not the best way to go.
They recommend a mastic instead.  According to them the problem with mortar is
that it doesn't have the holding power to keep the wall tiles from sagging 
before it sets up.  I've never used mortar before so I don't have the 
experience to know if they know what they are talking about.  Can someone 
offer some advice on using mortar?  Do you have to deal with the tiles 
slipping?  A second question is can you use mastic with cementboard?

George

    I have personally used mastic on wonderboard.  It works fine.
    
    I know nothing about the pros and cons of using thin set mortar.
    
    I have experienced tiles sagging while installing them.  Let
    me assure you that that is a problem you don't want to have.
    Sagging makes it almost impossible to get the tiles lined up
    properly.  Sometimes you don't see the sagging until you're
    working on a different section, and so you have to interrupt
    what you're doing, which may itself start sagging, to go back
    and push the other tiles in place, which, of course disturbs
    the setting process.
    
    Use a good stiff mastic.  If it's one you have to mix, be sure
    to not get it too thin.  If your tiles start sagging, use a
    stiffer mastic.

    I couldn't find an answer to this question in the previous plaster
    replies...so....
    
    What is the difference between sheet rock and rock lath? I know
    that they are different sizes..but...why?
    
    Marc H.

    My 1960-built house has rock lath interior walls. As I understand it,
    the plaster they used then was put on in two stages, a rough greyish
    color coat and the finish smooth white coat. The wall board was not
    unlike that used today. It came in 2'x8' sheets mounted horizontally. 
    I think the paper used was different though. This was better than wood
    slats and horse hair plaster. I think by using the 2' wide sheets, it
    gave the rough coat plaster more seams to "bite into" for more holding
    power (I don't think they taped the seams, but they did use metal mesh
    on inside and outside corners). The walls come out to be about 3/4"
    thick. This was the rock-lath system. Now they use 4'x whatever' "blue 
    board" sheetrock, tape the seams and use one thin coat. This cuts out
    one step...
    
      BD
    
    7 

    Another difference, i think, is that sheetrock is taped with a
    gypsum compound, but blueboard is finished with plaster of paris.
    Blueboard is more expensive for material, but less labor and a
    better quality finish.  I can remember platering with horsehair
    plaster against both woodlath and wirelath.  I'd rather plaster
    than tape a house any day.   mwr

I picked up a PC Drywall cutout unit on Saturday morning.  Cost $109.00 takes 
a few runs to get used to but GOD what a time saver.  I am completing the
second floor on my cape and installed several recessed lights.  If it was not
for those I may have just delt with cutting the boxes and heat registers using
a keyhole saw, but after spending 10-15 minutes carfully cutting on one of
these I took a ride down the road and bought the tool.

Came with two bits, one for use around electrical boxes, one for use around
doorways/windows.

I called SEVERAL rental places, none of them rented the tool.  

It has already payed for itself as far as I'm concerned.  I will most likly try
to sell it used in a few months.  

Brian J.

I've check many (most) of the notes on sheetrocking in this conference and I
guess this question best fits here.

I have used tape and mesh in the past and although most of the time I have used
pre-formed "inside corner" that Grossman's sells for inside coroners and
along the ceilings.  I am now about to do an entire second floor and can't see
buying hundreds of feet of that stuff.  

I was thinking that maybe paper tape would make getting a cleaner inside 
corner (vs mesh).  Comments?

I will be using mesh for the "easy" joints.

Oh ya, and what does a 4x8 sheet of 1/2" weigh (he wonders after putting up 65+
sheets)?

Brian J.

    RE: .109
    
    Weight? Measure after the job is done. You don't want to know.
    
    Mesh vs tape? Maybe I'm confused...the yellow open mesh stuff works
    great, and is pretty cheap. Why not use it? The paper stuff seems to
    always move at the wrong time.
    
    Marc H.

    I will never use any more mesh. I am back to using paper. The mesh
    stuff is quick and easy to use but after time cracks at the seams. Lets
    say the kids push each other into the wall hard enough to make it flex.
    The mesh stuff will then flex and will crack the compound.
    
    Orval

>>       <<< Note 1603.109 by 20438::MCCARTHY "COMPUTER: end simulation" >>>
>>         -< but maybe I'll have someone come in and do it for me :-) >-

>>Oh ya, and what does a 4x8 sheet of 1/2" weigh (he wonders after putting up 65+
>>sheets)?

I was told 58 pounds a sheet.

Garry

    
    The first sheet you put up weighs 58 pounds -- the last sheet weighs
    947. Empirical proof abounds.
    
    Forget the special inside corner tape. Just use a good corner trowel
    and the regular mesh or paper, as your drywall religion dictates.
    (I personally worship the mesh, especially on butt joints.) (A secular
    rule also applies here; "If Grossman's sells it, don't buy it!")
    Use an all-metal bead for outside corners.
    

    Sometimes the inside corners are not square.  For those times I use the
    metel corner bead, inside-out.  Then I apply paper tape using the
    corner trowel.  The corners then come out square.  It tends to be a bit
    expensive and appears time consuming at first, but the job looks great.
    
    
    As Always, FWIW
    
    Dave

I've used a special paper tape that has metal strips attached, so that when
you fold it, you get a fairly rugged corner.  The problem with this is that
you have to be good at going over it with joint compound so that the metal
strip doesn't show, but it's better than the preformed metal corners.

			Steve

Don't you put the metal face against the wall?  I bought this stuff but 
haven't used it yet, so I'm very curious how the stuff worked for you.

          <<< Note 1603.115 by QUARK::LIONEL "I brake for rainbows" >>>

I've used a special paper tape that has metal strips attached, so that when
you fold it, you get a fairly rugged corner.  The problem with this is that
you have to be good at going over it with joint compound so that the metal
strip doesn't show, but it's better than the preformed metal corners.

			Steve

The metal is supposed to be on the outside.  I probably had problems with
it due to my being a complete novice at sheetrocking at the time.  I certainly
learned quickly, though...

			Steve

>>The metal is supposed to be on the outside.  I probably had problems with

Must be different stuff.  I just bought a roll of this stuff and the
instructions on the box say the metal goes against the wall.  I'll start in the
closets and see how things go...

Brian 

    
    -1
    
    I also assumed that the metal goes on the outside (didn't even
    read the box).  I like this better that the mesh or paper.  It
    was easier to form better internal corners.  Only drawback is
    you need shears or tinsnips to cut a straight edge, whereas you
    can just rip off the paper.
    
    The other thing was that after wet-sanding one spot the metal
    rusted, bleeding through the joint.  This was visible and had to be
    reprimed with Kilz to stop it bleeding through.  maybe if i'd
    put it face down.....
    
    Colin
    

I may in fact have misread (or not read!) the instructions - this was some
three years ago so I don't recall clearly.

			Steve

    I've seen a number of notes on greenboard, blueboard, and other board,
    but none of the notes seem to provide an answer to my question. If
    there is an answer please send me in the right direction.
    
    Does it matter what board I use in the basement? The basement is not
    real damp, but we do run a dehumidifier in the family room. I am
    planning on dividing the unfinished part of the basement and will 
    be framing and wallboarding one side. 
    
                                                      

I have plain old every day sheetrock in about half of my basement.  The
basement tends to the damp and I do NOT use a de-humidifier.  After about 15
years, the sheetrock exhibits NO signs of deleterious effects from moisture. 
Use the cement board (many different names, but has concrete between the paper)
or the epoxy board around tubs and showers where the risk of coming into
contact with water is high. 

Dave

    I also have plain sheetrock in the basement.  No problem.  I did take
    the precaution of spacing it up the thickness of a 2x4 (1.5") above
    the floor so any water that did get on the floor wouldn't get into it.

    I had my basement finished recently, and had asked that Wonderboard be
    used in the shower.  Now that I am ready to tile, I am not sure that
    I really have Wonderboard/Durarock.  Is there a way I can tell for sure
    before tiling?  Unfortunately, the contractor walked off the job, and I
    am not able to confirm with him what he actually used.
    
    The color is Green, and it is taped at the seams.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    Laurie

    
      I have never seend Wonderboard or Durock that is NOT grey, since it
    is a cement based product. I think what you have is water resistant
    sheet rock, which is not nearly as good in a shower space. The eay way
    to tell is that Wonderboard is VERY hard and cement-like ALL the way
    through and there is no paper on either side of it. It has a mesh of
    fiberglass embedded within it.
    
    				Kenny

    Just as I suspected, I asked for Wonderboard, and got Greenboard. 
    There is indeed paper, and it is definitely not cement like, it is more
    cardboard like.  I'm not surprised, as he did whatever he pleased on
    this job......I assume that for a shower I will need to replace it with
    wonderboard, and will need to have someone professionally install it
    as I don't have any tools for cutting/trimming this sort of material.
    
    Bummer.....
    
    Laurie

    
    
    Hummmmm.......Did you put your requests in writing?????
    Sounds like a case for Judge Wapner!!!!!!
    
    Its difficult when you have to pay twice for things to be done
    right!  Say, what was the contractors name so we know what
    person NOT to call!!!!
    
    Good luck
    JD

    You can cut Durock with a razor knife.  It beats the hell out of them
    but it works.
    
    Is this a shower stall?  If so, you don't HAVE to have durock above the
    tub surround.  I did, but was told it was overkill.  If it's just a tub
    then you should definitely rip down the greenboard and put up Durock.
    
    					Steve

    	I've used the cheap'o masonary (fiber) blades on my circular saw to
    cut concrete. I don't see why they wouldn't work for Durock. As was
    said in a previous note, if you reached an agreement with this person,
    you should have some recourse.
    
    	For small businesses, a threat of a call to the Better Business
    Bureau is usually sufficient to get their attention. A BBB record is to
    them what a late mortgage payment on your credit report is to you. It
    impacts the ability to do business.
    
    	Ray

    Actually, you can get a $5 scoring tool for Durock.  Any place that
    sells it or sells tile supplies will have it.  It's just like a utility
    knife but instead of a razor blade it's got a carbide tip.  Score it a
    couple of times with the tool, then snap it like drywall.
    
    	Paul

    No chance for any $ recovery on this, see not 4951.0 for the gorey
    details.....
    
    Anyway, my question is, do I really need Durarock or Wonderboard for	
    a shower stall.  This is a 5' X 3' stall with a poured cement floor.
    I will be tiling the walls and floors with Ceramic tile.
    
    Thanks
    
    Laurie

    No, you don't really need the whatever - the green plaster board has
    resin and fungicide in the paper. You can attach ceramic tiles directly
    to it using a flexible adhesive, making sure the adhesive covers the
    entire surface of the board. You will still need to tape the joins and
    fibreglass the gaps to the floor of the shower stall before you tile.
    Do a good grouting job on the tiles, and you will be set for a long
    time.
    
    If you wish to provide a better waterproof seal, then paint the whole
    area of the shower enclosure with a membrane paint. Two to three coats
    with liberal application, and no more worries. You need to put the
    membrane paint on after taping any joints and fibreglassing the gaps to
    the shower basin.
    
    
    regards,
    Michael Watts.

    RE: .41
    
    I would suggest that the greenboard should only be used if you use
    a shower stall made with walls. The grout between the tiles will fail.
    You can count on it.
    
    If the walls are to be tiles, then use a cement wall now...or later
    when you have water damage.
    
    Marc H.

I just spent a week this summer redoing the master bathroom.
My shower was built with  blue board. The bottom portion 
of the blueboard literally crumbled as I picked it up. There
was quite a bit of moisture.

I ripped the entire shower apart, got it down to bare studs
and put in durarock.  You will know it's durarock when you pick
it up.

Much of the cost in a shower is the labor for putting in the 
tiles and grouting.  I wouldn't risk it in order to save
about $100 for the durarock.

As .43 said, replace it now or replace after there's water damage.

Gim

    RE: .44
    
    Similar experience by me, caused my conclusion. 
    
    You will use durarock...the only question is when.
    
    Marc H.

    	Just a thought (not having worked with the stuff) but how do you
    secure durorock to the wall ? Can you drive nails through this stuff ?
    
    	As an FYI, when running sheetrock in a tub/shower enclosure, I was
    taught to NEVER run the sheetrock right to the tub. You MUST leave a
    gap (~1/4") or the sheetrock will crumble at the bottom. No matter how
    well you caulk it, it will wick moisture up into it just like a paper
    towel will when you dip a corner into something wet (capillary 
    attraction).
    
    	Ray

    
      You can run sheetrock screws right through the durock. It works
    perfectly. I would think a nail would tend to crumble it a bit.
    
    				Kenny

    Use sheetrock screws.  Nails are very difficult to pound flush with the
    rock and have a tendency to loosen as you pound others in.  In fact I'd
    recommend screws for your entire sheetrocking job.  Much easier,
    quicker, and easy to take out if you screw up.

>    Use sheetrock screws.  Nails are very difficult to pound flush with the
>    rock and have a tendency to loosen as you pound others in.  In fact I'd
>    recommend screws for your entire sheetrocking job.  Much easier,
>    quicker, and easy to take out if you screw up.

... sounds like you're recommending screwing up, actually...

    
    My new house is still in the process of settling and I am finding
    several areas on walls and ceilings where the drywall seams appear
    to show with a pronounced bulge. Does any one have any simple
    remedies for this?  Also, is this normal or just a bad taping job
    by the drywall sub?  My builder claims that the high humidity in recent
    weeks is partly to blame.
    
    
    

    Typical bad taping job.
    
    			Steve

I'll second .1.  In most cases this is caused by lack of joint compound (or the
joint compound dried before the tape was applied) under the tape (so it 
does not stick to the wall).

How do I know?  Because in finishing my second floor I created a few of these
myself.  My solution is to cut away with a utility knife the bulge and then
apply joint compound (several times).  As long as this is not directly over 
the seam that the tape is covering it should work OK (and it has for me).

But for a new house - I'd bitch to the builder and have them fix it.  There is
no reason for it.

bjm

    
    BTW, I've had "bubble trouble" with the paper tape, but never with the
    mesh tape.
    

Or maybe it's TOO MUCH joint compound.

How large is the bulge?  14" across and 10 feet long or 1" across and 2" long?

    
     The bulge is not very wide but runs all the way along the seam. The
    high point of the bulge appears to be right over the seam though I
    cannot prove this. The bulges are probably an 1/8th of inche high at
    most but enough to make them visible.
    
    

If the two sheets of drywall are not rigidly secured a) to the wall and b) with 
respect to each other, you will get the symptoms you describe.  I have even 
seen this where two sheets were closely butted vertically along a stud, yet the 
stud was not nailed in place at the top.  Due to normal house settling, the 
stud shifted out of place and caused the tape to lift at the seam. At any rate,
no matter how good a taping job was done, if there is any shifting between the
two sheets, you will eventually see a lifting of the surface atop the seam. 

Whatever the reason, if the lifting is along a seam for any distance, you will 
need to "un-tape" the complete seam to do the repair job correctly.  At that 
time you will be able to see if you need to re-secure the wallboard or just re-
do the tape job.

Luck

    
    I wouldnt be so quick to point the finger at the tape job....
    Seeing its a new house, the "green" lumber that the builder used
    might be finding its set.  Ya know like the stuff boats are built
    with!..:)
    In any case, keep after the builder to fix it.  But you might just
    want to wait to have it fixed until you get some heat up in the place
    and the lumber dries out more.....
    
    JD

    A friend of mine has an extensive library of children's books. These
    books are all collectors items (1880s on up) and most are in mint shape.
    
    My friend wants to build an ell onto her Cape style house for use as
    a library/office. However, she wants to know if there are any building
    materials that could be used to help protect her books which will be
    displayed in floor to ceiling bookshelves on three walls.
    
    Any ideas out there?  
    
    ~Dick D.

    	Not sure what you mean by "help protect the books". Are you asking
    about shelving or the room construction itself ? If she wants, she
    could make the ell itself out of fireproof/retardent materials, such as
    brick or stone walls, steel studs, and firerock inside walls (see note 
    1570).
    
    	The shelving itself may be a bit tougher, but she could go with
    either metal, or perhaps a safty glass with metal supports. 
    
    	The other route may be to go with standard construction and look
    into fireproof enclosures. A couple of gun safes may be able to be adapted 
    to your friends use. If the books are truely collectors items, these
    would also protect them from ultra-violet rays, humidity (using a
    dessecant), and theft.
    
    	Hope this helps.....Ray

    
    Well, if the books have a large value, i'd consider building
    the room using block walls.  Placing the books in shelving
    that had some type of glass covers and able to keep out moisture.
    Then install sprinkler system for any combustables in the room..
    
    JD 

    
    My original post was a bit garbled. My friend wants to build a
    fireproof library onto her 200+ year old cape. She doesn't want
    the addition to look like a vault, but would like it to blend with
    the antique charm of her home/property. Her initial plans are of a
    16 X 20 ft. ell w/three of the walls with floor to ceiling open 
    bookcases with windows/window seats in each bookcase. A fireproof 
    door would lead to the main structure. I think she's more afraid of 
    fires than burglars, though I do think she'd put in some type of alarm
    system. I think a sprinkler system would be a no-no with all those
    books.
    
    I'd imagine that any fireproof-type materials would be very expensive.
    Where can you find this type of stuff? Don't recall seeing any at
    HQ or Home Depot, but then again I wasn't looking for it. Thanks again
    for any and all advice/info.
    
    ~dd 

    Well, "fireproof" is a relative term.  
    
    What she could do is build a structure out of concrete block,
    insulate it on the outside with 2" of foam, and put wood
    sheathing and clapboards over it so the appearance would be
    like the rest of the house.  Inside, put sheetrock directly
    on the concrete block.  Put foam insulation under a poured
    concrete floor, with tile or linoleum on top.  Do any internal
    framing with steel studs.  Put on a terne metal roof, or
    aluminum fake-shingle roof.  That would be pretty fireproof,
    I would think.
    That would
    be pretty fireproof, I would think.

    This may sound silly, but why not call a library and ask how archival
    rooms are prepared for fireproofing?  The person who answers the phone
    won't be able to tell you, probably, but a good reference librarian
    could probably steer you in the right direction.
    
    And what about contacting a college or university that offers programs
    in library science and/or architecture?
    
    And what about contacting some of the companies under "Fire Protection
    Equipment and Supplies" in the yellow pages?  Most seem to be for
    sprinkler systems, but some indicate that there are other services. 
    Maybe fireproofing is one of them.
    
    How what about contacting the local fire department to get some advice?
    
    
    Good luck! 

It seems her goal is to protect the books as much as possible without 
having the place look like fort knox. And although she is worried about 
fire, unless she goes to the large expense of truely fireproofing the room 
as described in previous notes, there isn't much to save the room if the 
house catches fire.

What she may really want to do is to protect the room from smoke (in 
addition to being careful about humidity and UV light.) Any small fire in 
the house could generate a huge amount of smoke that could ruin the books 
in short order.  Therefore a well sealed room with a reasonable amount of 
fireproofing (fire code sheetrock, metal studs, auto door closer, etc) as 
well as top quality windows and shades and a room humidified/air 
conditioner would provide good protection at a reasonable cost.

 

    I compiled all your suggestions and gave them to my friend Sarah.
    She asked me to pass on her thanks to all of you. HOMEWORK comes
    thru again!
    
    ~dd 

    
    
    After reading this string of notes, several times, I did my project
    using Wonderboard this weekend.
    
    Some of the things not mentioned, were the different textures of
    each side of the Wonderboard. One side is very smooth whereas the
    other side, exposing the mesh, is a bit course.  It was recomended
    in one of the pamphlets that the smoother side be used where ceramic
    tile will be applicated to, made sense.  It says right on the product
    that either side may be used.
    
    I bought a carbide tipped scoring tool, for ~ $9.00.  It worked
    *perfect*.  The person at HD where I bought the stuff, (For ~$10.50
    for a 3'X 5' X 1/2 inch) said it had to be cut with a masonary blade
    in a circular saw.  I'm glad I didn't take his advice!  It is much
    easier to score it on the smooth side, several times, and then snap 
    it, and use a utility knife to cut the mesh on the other side.  This
    was as easy as cutting sheetrock.
    
    I used contact cement and dry wall screws to secure it.  I used a 
    regular, electric power drill and 1" drywall screws.  Most seemed7
    to countersink well.  The ones that didn't were removed and I had
    used a longer drywall screw in order for it to grab enough to counter
    sink.  My cordless would not have had the torque to drive these in 
    like that.
    
    I didn't tape at the joints.  The literature I read and the people
    I spoke to had different opinions on whether it was necessary.  I
    had very few joints and layed the Wonderboard so that the rounded
    sides met.  I used DAP Concrete floor leveler (Which requires an
    acrylic bonding additive) on the seams.  I have used this same leveler
    on the kitchen floor and it was perfect for this application.  It sands
    out well with an extra course belt on a belt sander.
    
    All in all, it was less painful than I expected.  I'm glad I did use
    the wonderboard instead of just plywood/greenboard.  The resluts were
    excellent and it is (literally) as solid as a rock. Ceramic tiles next.
    
    Thanks for all the helpful hints..........
                                              .
                               
    

    I've been looking at the QuikDrive collated screw guns.  There are
    two models, 1-2" and 2-3".  You can get the drive attached to either
    a Stanley-Bostich "drill" or a DeWalt drill.
    
    Observations:
    Since I see the local Home Depot carries the screws in stock for these
    drills, I thought the drill units might be rentable via local rental
    places.  My assumption that plentiful supply means available device
    seems to have been a poor assumption.  Screws carried included drywall,
    2" course thread, and galvanized 2" course thread.
    
    Use:
    underlayment and such.  outside decks.  I did a previous floor of
    underlayment using square head screws one at a time and similar with
    two outdoor deck projects.  These were when I was slightly younger
    and I'm not improving with age.  I still remember aching knees, etc.
    So its a given I'm gonna get one unless they don't work as advertised.
    I'll be using in on several thousand square feet of underlayment and
    decking.
    
    Now the dilemma.  
    	[Q] Should I get the 1-2" model or the 2-3" model?
        [Q] Should I get the stanley-bostich or dewalt power unit?
        [Q] Is there only one set of screws manufactured such they will
            fit in either unit, that is are the screw driver mechanicals 
            the same independent of the power unit chosen (should be yes,
    	    but...)
        [Q] Why is the stanley-bostich called the QuikDrive(tm)R and the
    	    dewalt called simply QuikDrive?
        [Q] Should I pre-drill w/countersink for outside decks when using
            this tool?  What about inside?
    
    The following are my opinions on these questions, but they are only
    opinions.  Does anyone have more information to add, does anyone own
    one of these units or have used one for past projects?
    
    [Q] Should I get the 1-2" model or the 2-3" model?
    [A] 1-2" model.  Allows use with drywall screws as a potential added
        plus.  2" screws thru 5/4 decking means 1" into joists.  2" screws
        thru 2 layers of 3/4" subflooring & underlayment means 1/2" into
        joists (seems less than ideal, so maybe going to 2-3" unit makes
        sense, esp. since I hate drywall -- when would I ever use that
        capability?)
    
    [Q] Should I get the stanley-bostich or dewalt power unit?
    [A] DeWalt, personal choice.  Besides the stanley-bostich power unit
        looks wimpy/weird (only available for 1-2"?).
    
    [Q] Is there only one set of screws manufactured such they will
        fit in either unit, that is are the screw driver mechanicals 
        the same independent of the power unit chosen (should be yes,
        but...)
    [A] I believe so.  Boxes of screws are marked for SGA2 or SGA3, not
        QuikDrive for this or that.  Doesn't make sense to have to 
        manufacture two diferrent screws for essentially a niche market
        same mechanical front end device.
    
    [Q] Why is the stanley-bostich called the QuikDrive(tm)R and the
        dewalt called simply QuikDrive?
    [A] Marketing?  Or, as with me the DeWalt looks like a drill so I'm
        more comfortable in buying it? 
    
    [Q] Should I pre-drill w/countersink for outside decks when using
        this tool?  What about inside?
    [A] Inside, no - unless the screws can't be driven flush.  I've
        done it both ways inside and although the drill first w/countersunk
        looked cleaner, you could drive/countersink the screws flush with
        the floor without predrilling.  Outside same thing, except since
        you will see the screws, predrilling results in a better visual 
        presentation.  But then again, since I'll be painting the decks
        with at least a solid stain if not deck enamel, then its probably
        lost anyway.  [Besides, this tool is suppose to make things faster
        and easier, if I have to pre-drill, it seems to counteract the
        intent.]
    
    
    Looking for comments.

>   I just completed greenrocking my new 2nd bath with the 4 x 8's.  now to
>   the tape/mud step!.

	I'm almost done greenboarding a bathroom, where I'm using
	the greenboard only to reduce moisture potential moisture
	problems (bathroom also now has an externally vented fan),
	and tub/shower wall is fiberglass (ie. not as a backer
	for tile).

	Now the question.  On last weeks episode of "This Old House"
	(the house on Federal St. in Salem MA) they also used green
	board, but also mentioned that if you use greenboard, you
	should also use some other kind of joint compound that is
	also moisture resistent as regular joint compound is like
	regular drywall and will absorb moisture.

	Well now really getting to my question :-)... Home Depot doesn't
	carry anything like that, and the one person in the bldg. dept.
	there had never heard of it.  Seeing as I went to the extra
	expense (green/M.R. board is like double the cost) for the green
	board, I'd hate to see it be for nothing if my seems will be
	the weakest link in the chain.

	T.O.H. also used fiberglass mesh tape instead of paper for
	the seems BTW, which I have, and will use on the flat seems,
	but from experience, that tape doesn't work in inside corner
	seems.

	Anyone know anything about whether or not to use regular
	joint compound, and what about taping those inside seems?

I've never seen mesh used for inside corners - tape or inside corner molding -
but I have not even seen that in several years - Grossman's used to carry it.

I've never heard of special joint compound either.  I'm not sure if it makes
too much sense though.  The green-board's mosture resistance comes from, I
think, not only the 'special' green paper but more importantly the make up of
the board itself.  It does not break down when exposed to water as easily as
the standard stuff does.

You might try checking out the fine print on the powdered stuff and see if it
says anything - or call the company that makes the stuff - GP I think.

bjm

    I always tape my inside seams, using the mesh tape, and have never
    had a problem with it. It's a bit tricky to install and I don't
    typically get a straight line but it gets covered with mud any
    ways. I assume you do have an inside corner trowel??? It's the only
    way to do an inside corner neat and easy.

    As for the compound... I don't know of anything special but Home
    depot does have a fairly large line of powered mix materials,
    spackle, plaster, quick setting concrete, floor leveler, etc. I
    found these in the tile section, not the sheet rock section.

    He's a trick that my brother used recently to patch some electric
    outlet openings that the sheet rockers cut too big. He wanted
    something a little more durable than regular joint compund. He
    mixed some floor leveling compound in with regular pre-mixed joint
    compound and a little extra water and used that to patch with. It
    was workable, for awhile, like regular joint compound but hardened
    up more like floor leveler which is water resistant.

    There's also a This Old House WWW page and I think that there's a
    feedback section there. You might want to browse that page and post
    your question directly to ol' Norm. 

    It's http://pathfinder.com/@@grANn9GxMQIAQE5U/TOH/    

    Charly

Or call Dana Wallboard in Tynsboro, MA.  They sell more to professionals so
if anybody knows,  they should.

Garry

    The greenboard mud described in TOH was a dry mix, and they used
    it because the MUD was also moisture resistent.

Since I am working with this stuff, now....

>	should also use some other kind of joint compound that is
>	also moisture resistent as regular joint compound is like
>	regular drywall and will absorb moisture.

Use Patching Plaster (Plaster of Paris, etc).  Once it sets and dries, it is 
not going to absorb moisture.

But beware!!! It is a bear to use.  Read up on how to mix (if you understand
"slaking", you don't need to read instructions).  There are only two real
problems and they stem from plaster wanting to dry, quickly.  If you mix it wet
enough to be workable for 5 minutes or so, it gets real soupy and tends to sag.
 If you mix it "just right", it dries fast.  SO, mix it in small amounts. 
Finally, make it real level when you apply because you will need to use sand -
not just use a wet spongs as with joint compound - to finish. 

>	Anyone know anything about whether or not to use regular
>	joint compound, and what about taping those inside seems?

I use the fiberglas mesh on inside corners, outside corners, seams, and for 
filling holes.  I LOVE the stuff.  The brand I have is "sticky" on one side so 
it tends to stay in the inside corner if you press it in place.

Good luck.

Dave

    
    I used "Gold Bond" drymix joint compound.  Much harder to work with as
    it sets up in 30-60 mins.  However, it is rock hard and does not absorb
    moisture.  Mix it up in an old joint compound bucked with a propeller
    mixer on an electric drill.  Do it by hand and you'll lose 10 minutes
    off your setting time.  Clean out your mixing spot very thoroughly
    between batches. It's also much harder to sand so you really need to
    avoid laying on too much and do three passes with 5" 10" and 12"+
    knives.
    
    Because it's thicker and heavier than premixed light compound, it often
    pulls off the mesh tape as you are laying it on. I found the best way
    was to lay on a coat with a 5" knife and then apply fiberglass mesh
    tape on top and press it into the compound
    
    For corners, I used the metal edging on outside corners and
    metal-reinforced paper tape on inside corners.
    
    Colin
    
    
    (Unlike the other gold bond powder, this stuff will make you itch.)
    

    
    Saw that type of unit at Spags in Shrewsbury.  I believe it was ~
    $40.00

    We will be adding an addition to our house and plan to do as much of
    the interior work as possible by ourselves.
    
    The walls will be knotty pine wainscotting (wide).  Should we put sheet
    rock up first and then add the wainscotting or can the wainscotting go
    right up against the studs?  
    
    Thanks for any info.
    
    Linda N.

>    The walls will be knotty pine wainscotting (wide).  Should we put sheet
>    rock up first and then add the wainscotting or can the wainscotting go
>    right up against the studs?  
    
I think this is a personal decision as to what kind of look you want.  When I
put up wainscoting in my home, I wanted the boards to be flush with the walls
above them and then have a chair rail separating the two.  This requires you
to remove the sheetrock (or in your case, not put any up).

	|
	|  sheetrock
	|
	+-+
	| |chair rail
	| |
	+-+
	|
	|  wainscoting
	|

To make my project even more complicated, I wanted vertical boards so I had to
recess horizontal lath into the studs so I'd have something to fasten the boards
to...

-mark

I just read your note again and it sounds like to want the wood to cover the
entire wall (technically I think wainscoting only covers PART of the wall and
hence my previous reply).

If your boards are horizontal, fasten them right to the studs.  If vertical
you'll need some sort of lath.  The only reason I could think of for putting
up sheetrock is if the boards are thin (as in 1/4" or even 3/8").

-mark

    Yes, the boards will go on the whole wall (I wasn't sure if wainscot
    was whole or half).
    
    My husband mentioned the lath - the boards would be tounge and groove
    fitting vertically.
    
    So far, I like the answer!
    
    Thanks

>    Yes, the boards will go on the whole wall (I wasn't sure if wainscot
>    was whole or half).
>    
>    My husband mentioned the lath - the boards would be tounge and groove
>    fitting vertically.
    
yes, vertical boards will need the lath.  how much?  I'd recommend at least 5,
maybe even 6 rows, counting the ones at the top and bottom.  I wouldn't worry
that much about spacing, but on a 7-1/2' wall, 5 rows would be spaced a little
under 2-1/2 feet apart.  since tongue/groove are self-locking, I'd think the
wall would be fairly rigid.

now for the real tough question (and this depends how nuts you want to be about
it!): 

	are you willing to give up 1-1\2" of room width?

sound silly?  sometimes you want to keep every inch you can.  if your room is
big enough that this doesn't matter, nail the lath directly to the studs.  if
room DOES matter, you can recess the lath (a LOT of work) and save 1-1/2", 3/4
inch on each wall.

-mark

    Thanks again for the info...the room will be 30X16 so I think we can
    spare the inches! (;}
    
    Linda

re: Sheetrock under paneling....

Don't fire codes requires that all walls have some layer of fire protection,
normally plaster or wall board or some such?
Wouldn't paneling right on the studs violate such a code?

- tom]

>Don't fire codes requires that all walls have some layer of fire protection,
>normally plaster or wall board or some such?
>Wouldn't paneling right on the studs violate such a code?

don't know, but I do know regular sheetrock isn't fireproof.  There's a special
firecode (or some adjective like that) sheetrock that you have to put between
the garage and the rest of the house (if in internal garage I think you need it
on the ceiling.

you also need a sheet of it over your furnace...

-mark

    
    BOCA has two residence codes, something like 5 type A and 5 type B. 
    There are a bunch of height, footprint size, floors, etc. limits that 
    define which group/type a residence fits into.  Most residences are
    5/A and only require fire blocks/stops in specific places like in
    ballon walls or stud cavities > 10' require fire blocking in the
    cavities and between attached garages and residential space a 1 hr
    fire rating is required.  A 1 hr fire rating can be achieved via
    several different materials but the most common is 5/8" firestop
    sheetrock w/steel doors.  I believe the 5/8" firestop contains 
    contains fiberglass fibers, but I'm unsure of whether those fibers 
    contribute to the firestop rating or are there just to help with 
    the structural rigidity of the panels.  I've just gotten bids back
    for 1/2" vs 5/8" firestop sheetrock and the difference in bids is
    roughly 3.5 cents per sqft of covered surface.  This seems to vary
    seasonally in that I was told if I'd done the job 4-6 months ago
    the difference would have been less than 1 cent per sqft (due to 
    a variety of factors).  So cost differences will constantly vary
    with time of year, amount of activity in your area, etc.
    
    Anyway, 5/B residences require either 1hr firestop (on all structural
    walls, exterior ceilings, etc.) -or- a sprinkler system installed in
    accordance with other chapters of BOCA. (BOCA is what is used where 
    I am).  The sprinkler system typically has to be a 24hr externally
    monitored type.  In building my new house the building inspector/fire
    marshall tried (unsuccessfully so far) to require me to include a 
    sprinkler system that would be hooked up and monitored by the town
    fire station (lets see $5/sq ft for installation, plus dedicated phone
    line monthly charge plus monthly charge from local fire station, ...).
    The house being built in no way fell under any of the definitions, 
    guidelines, etc for a 5/B residence - but as BOCA says a building 
    inspector can interpret as they see fit and its legal... its just not
    legal to interpret it differently for each house in town!
    
    

    Mid way through a bathroom renovation I decided to let a pro finish the
    drywall and was wondering what would be a reasonable price for taping
    and filling screw holes for a 5 x 8 bathroom or, bonding and
    skimcoating.  I put up greenboard which would require a surface
    treatment first.  The one quote I have it $700.00 for the bonding and
    two coats of plaster or $400.00 for just taping and filing. 
    Reasonable? High?  It seemed high to me for such a small (to me) job
    but I really also do not want to do this part myself and I want it to
    come out nice.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    Brian
    

    Brian-
    
    Based on my recent experience, your quote for skimcoating is high.
    I would also recommend for a bathroom that you go with a plaster
    skimcoat rather than taped joints....holds up better under high
    moisture conditions. Price should be around $1.25-1.50/sq. ft. 
    for small jobs. For full room additions the price for board and 
    skimcoat can be much lower.....around $0.75-1.25/sq ft (which
    includes the board material and hanging. Plasters charge a premium for
    small jobs or skim coat only that requires bonding agent.
    
    I just had a 13x10 room addition....cathedral ceiling and walls
    plaster skim coated. They hung the board and finished it for $550.
    
    I had previously had just a damaged ceiling in our livingroom
    re-skim coated over the old (no new board) and the price was $250.
    
    I'll look up the name of the plasterer tonight. He was in the
    contractor references but for some strange reason the old #2028
    for plasterers/sheetrockers has been replaced by "saved for 
    expansion".
    
    
    Jonathan
     

    RE: .-2
    
    The cost of plaster vs. skimcoat shouldn't differ by more than
    $.05-$.10 per square foot.  The problem with a small bathroom is that
    there are only small areas to cover.  This is more of a pain than large
    rooms to plaster evenly.  The "finish" areas near windows and corners
    are more difficult to get straight and clean.  A small room like this
    can take just as long if not longer than a larger room because of all
    of the small walls there.  Also consider that there is a fixed cost to
    just prepping the materials.
    
    Dan

>    The cost of plaster vs. skimcoat shouldn't differ by more than
>    $.05-$.10 per square foot.  

call be confused, but aren't plaster and skimcoat the same thing?  when I had
my blueboard skimcoated, they did it with plaster.

-mark

    RE: .-1
    
    Sorry wrong terminology.  Skimcoat is often used as the term for
    compound.  Skimcoating is also used for plastering, you are correct. 
    Sorry about the confusion.  Though the initial comment stands.  The
    difference between taping and plastering should not be significant.
    
    The reason for the small difference is in time.  For a normal tape and
    compound, there are usually three coats applied.  Plastering requires
    one.  Taping requires three trips, plastering one... etc.
    
    Dan

    Thanks for the replies.  The quote I received was for prepping the 
    drywall (bonding) and two skimcoats or taping and compounding for
    $300.00 less.  There is also a large area around the tub that has
    cement board which will be tiled over.  I will get a few more estimates
    and see how this figures out.  
    
    Brian