Conference 7.286::home_work

    One thing I forgot to mention.  Location.  I live up in North Andover
    where the rocks are granitic.  This means the darn things are any
    shape but flat.

    Maybe you could make your wall out of railroad ties from that
    unused railroad track behind the other house where we're all dumping
    our creosote.  ;-)

    (chuckle) Some of you guys really read all of these notes don't
    you?!  I got quite a laugh from .2.  I believe they are planning
    to put that railroad line back in use some day.  They may get crabby
    if some of the ties are missing.
    
    Stan

    How about a poured concrete wall with a "New England Brickmaster"
    look-alike face on it topped off with real brick top. Does poured
    concrete cost more than cheap rocks? Put some shrubs and greenery
    around it with bark mulch and Voila! :^) 

    There is supposed to be a place in Westminster, which of course
    I can't remember the name of right now, that sells rocks for
    $65/ton, or did a couple of years ago.  I got the name of the
    place from a landscaper in Harvard, Neil Jorgensen Associates.
    A phone call to them would probably get you the name.
    
    However, even $65/ton is not cheap.  I have thought about this
    too, because I want to build a wall sometime.  I've thought about
    picking up rocks along the road; especially in the springtime,
    there tend to be rocks at the bottom of some of the cuts in the
    rock along highways.  I've also thought about asking at construction
    sites where blasting is going on.  Another idea - call up a blasting
    company.  They might have some suggestions.
    
    Moving the things is definitely a problem, even with a truck.  I
    think I'll use the "gradual collection" approach, picking them up
    here and there as I find them.  If you're the type of person who
    wants to start a project and finish it at a definite time, that
    way of doing it probably wouldn't work.  But if you're willing to
    build your walls a little at a time, it might be one way to do it.

    re: .4
    
    Geez, air indeed.  Everybody is a comedian.
    
    If you want, I will launch into my tirade about buying *dirt*.  You
    think dirt is dirt cheap, dontcha?  Try buying 375 cu yds of topsoil
    to put in a lawn.  :-{
    
    And how about water?  You know that No. Andover gets their water
    from Lake Cocheciwick (sp - or something like that)?  Well, the
    city fathers didn't clamp down on development in the watershed area
    soon enough and the lake is not crystal pure and clean anymore.
    No. Andover is one of the only towns in the US that doesn't have
    a filtration plant (never needed it)!  We will have one in 1989 or 
    '90.  Until then it is bottled water for this guy!  :-(
    
    All you guys take rocks for granite!  :-)
    
    Stan

    
    
      This may sound silly, and it might even be stealing, who knows?
     But, what about the falling shale rock you see along rtes 128 and
    95?  Its the same stuff, isn't it?  I drive by quite a bit of it
    that has peeled off.  I wonder if you can stop and get it?

  I've been told that there are people who will pay upwards of $1000/ton
  (yup, one thousand smackers) for "aged" rock -- the ones that have been
  sitting in the rock walls and getting weathered for a hundred years or so.  
  Truly amazing.

  You might post this in the GARDEN notes file -- New England gardens emit
  rocks at a furious pace at this time of year.  Maybe people would be kind
  enough to save them for you?  Or maybe post it in ASKENET?  I'm sure someone
  in this company has a pile (or a field full) of rocks they'd like to get
  rid of...

  Last year the grade of our dirt road was raised several feet by the use
  of what they called "rip-rap."  It's the stuff left over from blasting
  operations and consists of rather flat pieces of granite with sharp
  edges, about six inches (or less) across and a couple of inches thick. 
  Being flat and rather small, these rocks might be easier to build a
  wall with -- but it's probably not what you have in mind.

  I don't think taking rocks from retaining walls on interstate highways
  would be such a hot idea.  And I'm sure you know that taking rocks from
  a rock wall -- even if it's deep in the woods -- can get you arrested
  (or shot in NH).

  JP

    What's your mailstop?  I bet if everyone in this conference mailed
    you 1 rock each, you'd have enough and wouldn't have to buy hardly
    any.
    

    Or if you don't want us to mail them to you, I probably have enough 
    rocks for 1 or 2 pickup truck loads.  
    
    Where do you live?  You can have them if you come get them.
    

>  I don't think taking rocks from retaining walls on interstate highways
>  would be such a hot idea.  And I'm sure you know that taking rocks from
>  a rock wall -- even if it's deep in the woods -- can get you arrested
>  (or shot in NH).

    A neighbor of mine has a very old colonial house with several hundred 
feet of stone wall in front of it along to road. She told me one time she 
had to call the police because our other neighbor had taken a good many 
rocks from her wall to landscape her new swimming pool! Seems the neighbors 
reasoning was that the wall was just there but not being used...so the 
rocks were fair game to take......Needless to say, neither neighbor speaks 
to the other and I bet there is some cop somewhere still shaking his head.

    I think your best bet is to find some local construction company doing
site prep and see if you can't buy a couple of truck loads of rock from 
them. Freshly fractured granite makes a beautiful wall, with or without 
cement.

    Vic

    re: .4
    
    I'm not interested in a concrete wall with NE Brickmaster face on
    it.  This sucker is going to be real.  Everything else I am
    constructing is real.
    
    re:  .5,.6,.7,.8
    
    I am not really going to steal rocks.  I have thought of the "grab
    a few on the way home every day" approach.  I would like to get
    this project started soon and finished soon.  Actually, by the time
    it is done I will probably be very thankful.  I have been constructing
    a couple of loose rock pillars (one done) at the end of the driveway.
    The done one is about 5' high x 3' wide and tapers down to about
    3' to fair in with the old wall.  You would be surprised how many
    rocks disappeared into that!
    		  __________
                <-- 3'---> /|
    		/_________/ \
    	    ^	|	 |    ` -------------
    	    |	|	  \                3'
    	    5'	|	    ` _____________

    re: .13
    
    I know what you mean.  I have 150' feet of disheveled stone wall
    along the front of my property (which I hope to repair).  If anyone 
    tries to remove it, they are in trouble.  Actually, most of the rocks 
    are over 100#.  They will probably get a broken back long before the 
    police get to them.
    
    This brings up a slightly humorous problem.  I have to hide a rock
    about 2.5' in diameter.  The builder put the bugger on top(!) of
    the wall.  I have rolled it off (side away from the road :-) and 
    now I have to move it out of the way (and out of sight).  I don't
    want to rent a Bobcat ($125/day) to move one rock.  I may need one
    at a later date for further landscaping I could wait.  I don't want
    to lasso the bugger and drag it up the driveway or across the lawn
    with my car.  It is all uphill from here.  I can't hide it in the 
    wall (too many immovable boulders already there.  I have tried with 
    minimal success to make little rocks out of it with a sledge.  I think 
    the only thing to do is buy a fluffy bush.
    
    Stan

    One sage technique is to rent a drill or if you have the time a
    small sledge and a star drill and drill a couple of strategic holes
    about 6-8" deep.
    
    Wait one winter and move the pieces in the spring.

    Stan,
    
    I have "hidden" a large rock before by digging a larger hole next to it
    and rolling it in, cover with dirt, seed it and its "gone". Just make
    sure that you calculate the size and location of the hole properly
    (over estimate to be sure) because rolling it in is a one shot deal,
    Try to make it at least 1 foot deep so that you can get good topsoil
    coverage. 

Charly
    

    No problem.
    
    Stake off an area about 20 feet square in your backyard.  Outline
    it with twine on the stakes.  Get a spade, pitchfork, garden cart,
    and bag of fertilizer.  Leave them outside.
    
    Overnight, all of the wall-size rocks within a two-mile radius
    will pass the word, and slither underground to the site of your
    supposed garden plot, to rest about six inches below the surface.
    
    Just go out and dig 'em up.  And when you have enough, you'll also
    have a prepared garden bed.
    
    pbm
    

    
    re.13
    
      Vic, what I was refering to about "stealing rocks along the hiway"
    was there are these granite formations that were blasted through
    to build the road or on/off ramp.  Every winter the pile of "flakes"
    build up at the base.  There are, every spring, those orange and
    black trucks (that sleep three, four on overtime) removing the stuff.As
    long as its not a traffic hazard and you aren't ridiculous about
    going about it, there probably is no harm done.

    re: .17
    
    Hmmmmmm.  That means I would have to make the hole about 3'x3' by
    3.5' deep.  Sounds almost big enough to be my grave.  I have to 
    dynamite to plant a shrub.  I can get all the rocks I want.  I just 
    have to dig down a foot.  .18 had about the right idea.  My house 
    is built on ledge.  They had to blast for the foundation.  They had 
    to remove 3' of granite to put in the septic tank.  (and I'm looking 
    for rocks, right?)  I know where plenty of them are, I just want 
    flat ones.  (I bought a lot of dirt just to cover the ones I couldn't
    see to pick up and make walls)
    
    Burying it is a good idea.  For now I think I will get a come-along
    and roll it out of the way.  I will have to get a Bobcat in at some
    point.  I'll move it then.
    
    My original solution (my wife was against it) was to push it off
    the wall and let it come to rest in the road.  Then I would call
    the town and tell them that a dump truck from the development down
    the road dropped it.
    
    Stan

    
    3' x 3' by 2.5'  (one foot of dirt over)
    
    You ain't moving that sucker with your average bobcat!!!
    

    I live in a cape and the front of the house has a Field Stone fence
    (dry, no cement).  The house sits on top of a concrete foundation.
    I want to put either real of fake field stone around the foundation
    up to the house.  Does anybody know where I can get this type of
    stone (Fake or real) and a name of someone to do the job if I decided 
    to do the the job myself.
    
    
    					Bart Lasky    

    
     i am not sure of the stone that you need but I have seen "Field
    Stone" for sale at different places in the last few weeks.I have
    seen the stone for sale by the pallet load in Fitchberg and in 
    Linwood and Uxbridge. It is in the True Value stores and some of
    the building supply outlets.
    
    		Wayne
    
    ps. How are ya doing Bart!!

By far the cheapest source for stone that I have seen in the Boston area is 
Precourt Inc in Sudbury Ma.  When I went to look into buying some bluestone,
Corriveau-Routhier (a LARGE masonry supplier in so. NH) quoted about $4 a sq 
ft, Precourt quoted about $2.

Paul

     To reopen this note, I have the opposite problem.  Every time I 
prepare a bed for shrubs, flowers, garden, or new lawn, I pick out a lot 
of rocks, from pencil eraser through football size.  Any ideas on how to 
get rid of these?  Does anybody want them?

hi there !!!
i'll take your rocks .. if you deliver them to north hero vermont...


tony

    Hello.   Is anyone familiar with the procedure for rebuilding a
    fieldstone dock?   The fieldstone, which is level to, or slightly
    below water level, sits on top of a concrete base.   Unfortunately
    outermost section of the fieldstone has separated completely from
    the other stones.  (It is in the lake at this point).   
    
    Can the original stones be re-used?   Do you have to build a form 
    to keep the water away from the cement when curing or is some
    kind of hydraulic cement used?   Too much for a rookie to do?
    Any know of a good stone mason in the Maynard area, and roughly
    what it would cost to have a 10' X 5' dock repaired or rebuilt?
    
    Also,  there is fieldstone retaining wall in similar condition.
    
    Thanks in advance for the help.
    
    Henry            DTN 234-4283    GOLF::HWALSH  

    Re: .0
    
    I don't have any answers to your questions other than suggesting you
    call George Shaw (Maynard), who is one of the better stone masons around.
    
    					Steve
    					

I can answer only two of your questions.

There's absolutely no reason not to reuse the existing stones unless
they've been "contaminated" with oil or something.

and

Any normal Portland cement based product (Concrete or mortar) will
cure quite well under water provided it it is left in an unperturbed
environment for the first 12 hours (or less). This assumes you are
working with materials which lack bonding deficiencies (e.g. oil
film). The curing of Portland cement based products is chemical and
not dependent on surfacial air to "dry". The necessary air for the
curing process is entrained in the product as it is mixed and setting.

I think. :^)

-Jack

    RE: .2
    
    Correct...except that portland cement doesn't need air trapped in it.
    The reaction doesn't use air.
    
    Marc H.

re: .3, Marc

You're probably right. Can you shed any light on why Portland cement
Type II (if I recall correctly) is labeled "Air entraining"? (I may
have the wrong Type number.)

-Jack

    RE: .4
    
    My guess is that the air is used to give the correct density to the
    final product. Also, maybe to help in the through mixing of the 
    sand and stone with the cement. The air curing is needed for a 
    strictly lime cement. There, the lime is first mixed mixed with water
    to form slaked lime. Then, the slaked lime hardens with CO2 to form
    cement.
    
    CaO + H2O = CaOH      CaOH + C02= CaCO3
    
    O.K.....the reactions aren't balanced...but...you get the idea.
    
    
    Marc H.

Air-entrained concrete is much more resistant to freeze-thaw cycles.  I
doubt it has any significance for underwater use.

					Steve

    RE: .6
    
    That makes sense.
    
    Marc H.

    Air entrained concrete also flows better, and one can use a higher
    strength concrete (less water in the mix) but still adequately fill
    difficult spaces. Depending on the particular air entraining agent, the
    air bubbles may or may not vibrate out as the concrete is compacted
    into place.
    
    As I understood it, it doesn't matter if cement/concrete gets wet once 
    it has its initial set, but it won't actually set under water - just keeps
    washing away from the surface?
    
    regards,
    Michael Watts.

Well, I started this note string in 1988.  I haven't gotten the wall done
yet.  I have been informed by a higher power (my wife) that this year is
the year of the wall (and strained back).

We have been looking at rocks and even considering buying them.  I thought
I would give you all one last chance to get rid of yours.

So...

If you have a stone wall on your property that has flat rocks in it and want
to get rid of them give me a call or email.  If it looks feasible to rent a 
truck and pick them up, I will.

One area I have seen walls with flat rocks is in Lunenburg.  I also hear that
they exist out in Barre, Ma.  I am in No. Andover where the walls are made of
granite cobbles.  These are not acceptable.  I want flat rocks.

Stan

DTN 227-4304
Home (508) 794-9283

>><<< Note 2140.24 by XK120::SHURSKY "If you're not lead dog, the view never changes." >>>
>>                             -< Finally, maybe... >-

A neighbor of mine got a bunch of fairly regular rectangular shaped rocks
from the Nashua, NH RT 3 construction site.  

There's still plenty of rocks since they started blasting again. Supplies
and selection will vary dayly....

Garry

    
    
    ......you may not find to many stone walls left in Barre.
    You might just want to call a stone contractor and have them
    drop off a load.  You might just save more that time and money
    this way....
    
    JD

    
    I was just out in Barre to visit my in-laws. Along the way my
    wife and I were talking about how the town must be criss-crossed
    by a few hundred miles of stone walls. 
    
    We're looking to build some more stone walls, too... but my 
    rock supply doesn't look like enough to fill my plans. We decided
    that if some of our Barre acquaintances wanted to make some serious
    money they could sell off their walls. The thing that amazes me out
    there isn't just the quantity of piled stone walls... but the quantity
    of very old flat-stone walls. 
    
    								- Mac
                                                                  

Some of those stone walls might be boundary markers.

I also remember hearing somewhere (maybe "This Old House") that some types of
dry stone walls are protected by law; at least in New Hampshire.  That may
explain where there are so many of one type around but not any others.

I would tread carefully when looking to acquire stones from a dry stone wall.

- Mark

    
    There is a farmer on West Townsend Rd. on the Townsend/Lunenburg
    line that has hundreds of stones in his fields that would propably
    be more than happy to have someone take away ! They look to be
    perfect size for building a wall.
    
    Randy
    

    
    re:mac
    
    The only problem with "all thoes walls" in Barre is that
    most of them mark off land and the others need an act of
    congress to get removed.  There was one farmer who nearly
    got run out of town for putting a few extra gateways into
    is field....         I"m growing them in my field...:)
    
    

	    I read an article that stated that many stone walls were 
	not built for boundaries.  The walls were often a convenient 
	method of moving the rocks out the way so farmers could plow
	their fields.
	    The author believes that clearcutting chunks of forests to
	open up fields for farming lowered the frost line.  This, in
	turn, increased the efflorescence (?) of rocks being pushed to	
	the surface.  Every spring, these colonial era farmers would
	head out to their fields to find more rocks!  (Where DO they 
	COME from?!?)
	    Ironic if so many of these protected walls were once a cause
	of frustration, anger, and were in actuality, a waste product.

					Tim    

    
	> (Where DO they COME from?!?)
    
        The explanantion given for my local geology back home is a
        combination of several effects:  water action on the baserock
        causing it to flake off the mother rock.  This is enhanced by
        the freeze/thaw cycle.  Then a combination of the frequent micro
        earthquakes that NE gets.  Then frost heaves and finally a process
        called solifluction that pushes the rocks up once they get their
        head above the surface.  There's probably even more to it.
    
        Most of the round rocks that many of the walls are built of are shaped
        by glaciers, (or old riverbed) and the rounded shape is better at
        working its way up, apparently.  Ploughing will accelerate the process
        greatly, hence the nice crop of stones that farmers could raise around
        here. 
    
        Regards,
    
        Colin
    
    

    I have seen a property deed in New Hampshire that referenced stone
    walls as part of the description of the boundries.

    re: .35
    Yes, indeed.  I once lived in a house that had some 26 acres of
    weirdly-shaped land, all bounded by stone walls, and over and
    over the deed specified "...as the wall now stands."

    
    If the walls are aside a designated wetland, or alongside a designated
    "scenic route", don't mess with them unless it's on your property
    and permits have been obtained.
    
    Fred