Conference 7.286::home_work

    We had wood floors before and my wife would keep the floors looking
    good w/MURPHYS OIL to clean and wash the floors then apply a good
    coat of BUTCHERS BOWLING ALLEY WAX maybe 3-4 times a year.You could
    save a lot of labor by buying or renting a floor buffer for that
    job.The floors always came out looking great,made dusting a lot
    easier.She swears by murphy's for all the woodwork.Probably one
    of the last old fashioned products that really work.
    
    Gary

    I SECOND THE MURPHY'S.
    
    MURPHY'S WORKS GREAT.  I HAVE USED IT ON THE WOOD FLOOR, WOODWORK,
    WOOD PANELING, EVEN HAVE USED IT ON MY OAK/PINE FURNITURE.
    
    JUDIE
    
    

    Where can I get this "Butchers Bowling Alley Wax" and how much trouble
    is it to use.  (I've got to do about 800 sq ft of floor in my
    downstairs apartment)
    
    
    -bill

    
    Another vote for Murphy's Oil Soap.  I have hardwood floors 
    throughout and use it all the time.  I also use it on my 
    tables/chairs/pine walls and follow up with Lemon Oil.
    
    I'd also be interested in where to get the bowling alley wax
    because I don't like rugs so my floors are ALL wood.  I've never
    seen it there, but don't tell me....Spags, right?!  ;-) ;-)
    
    	Conni

    Spags, right.  (Near the seeds and flowerpots and stuff).
    

      I've been using Murphy's Oil Soap on the fine wood floors
    of mine, now the dirt is finished and the finish is fine! 8^)

    Well, I've never been to Spags ... and I don't think it's terribly
    close to here (Merrimack, NH).
    
    Where's a good place to buy Murphy's Soap and Butcher's Wax (other
    than Spag's)?
    
    	-- Jeff

You can find Murphy's at most any grocery store (Alexanders in Pennichuck Sq).
Look in the detergent aisle in among the funiture polish.


Mark Parenti

    Found the Murphy's, thanks.  It does work well, by the way, but
    those scuff marks are a bear to get up.
    
    Where can I find Butcher's Wax locally (Nashua/Merrimack/Manchester)?

    I have read the notes in this file pertaining to the finishes for
    hardwood Oak floors, but have not seen this finish mentioned. I
    tend to agree with others writing to this file that a high gloss
    finish on a floor is asking for trouble in the form of high 
    maintenance, so I began looking at satin finishes. Comments were
    made concerning the durability of urethane finishes, so I wanted
    to make a close evaluation of finishes of this type. One noter had
    mentioned Waterlox brand "Gym - Seal" as being a high quality oil
    modified polymer finish. I went to a local hardware store and 
    read the product description on the can... sure enough an oil finish.
    The one problem with the "Gym - Seal", as you might have guessed
    by the name, is that it is high gloss. Waterlox makes a satin finish
    and a sealer as well, and I was wondering if anyone has had any
    experience with these products.
    
    /Kevin 

    I had a friend in Syracuse who was an antique dealer.  All she carried
    was oak.  I used to pick up some great furniture bargains from her,
    but that's another story.  Anyway, she once recommended using Waterlox
    instead of poluyrethane for refinishing furniture.  I picked up
    a can of the stuff and used it to finish an oak end table.  I loved
    the stuff.  I refinished that table 10 years ago and it still looks
    great. Even in my house with 3 kids. If I remember correctly, the
    finish was just called Waterlox (perhaps Waterlox oil finish). 
    It didn't have anything in the name that implied gym floors, so
    perhaps it isn't exactly the same.  I don't recall if it came in
    different levels of gloss, but if it did, I'm sure I must have used
    a satin finish.  Anyway, I can't say enough good about the stuff;
    it was easy to apply (relatively speaking), looks good, and is vey
    durable.  My only question is Where Can You Buy the Stuff?
    I haven't seen it anywhere around southern NH.

I haven't used it, so I can't make a direct reccommendation, but Watco makes an 
oil floor finish.  Considering the quality of their other oil finishes, it's 
probably pretty good stuff, worth looking into if you're going for an oil 
finish.

Paul

    I spoke with Waterlox last nite and found out some interesting info.
    on the floor finishes. The semi gloss finish is called Waterlox
    Transparent. You need to apply 3 coats of the finish to new or sanded
    floors. To achieve a satin finish you 'rub out' the third coat with
    00 steel wool after it cures. Waterlox products are available through
    True Value Hardware Stores, Services Starr Hardware, Ace Hardware
    and some others. Notice "AVAILABLE" means that these people can
    order it from their wharehouses... I have found that most do not
    stock it in their stores in quantities over a pint. I'll let you
    know how my floor comes out.
    
    /Kevin

    re .3: Did your floor come out yet?
    
      mitch

> Did your floor come out yet?
  No, I'm sure it's still in there.

    Could we get back to how to wax a wood floor?  Last weekend (after
    a messy Halloween party) I cleaned my wood floors with Murphy's
    soap.  It did a good job of cleaning, but now I'm worried that whatever
    wax there was on floor is now gone.  The floor is now clean, but
    dull-looking.                                                  
    
    This brings up the following questions:
    
    - Is there such a thing as a hardwood floor that doesn't need wax?
     
    - Will I harm the floor if I don't wax it?  
        
    - If I do need to wax, do I need to rent one of those big buffers?
      And, if so, how do I apply the wax and use the buffer?
      
    - I have wood floors in the bathroom and kitchen.  I notice that
      the floor sometimes feels sticky when it gets wet.  Does this
      happen when improperly applied, or the wrong type of wax gets
      wet?

    Why not use polyurethane in the bathroom and kitchen?  It would
    be more resistant to damage from spills and dampness.
    
    pbm
    

    re: .11
    
    I don't want to refinish the floors, I just want to keep them clean.

    Bruce makes two: Light and Bright and Dark and Rich.  You decide
    based on floor color.  I spread the stuff around with one of those
    waxing sticks, waited a bit, and then ran a light buffer over the
    floor with bristles, not a polishing pad.  (Basically, followed
    directions on the can.)  Pretty simple and looks good to me.
    

RE. < Note 822.10 by DECWET::FURBUSH "EF Hutton says: #@%$!" >
                   -< Found the Murphy's, now I need to wax >-


Gordo, before you start dispensing the carnauba, I suggest you determine
whether your floors are "Swedish finished," a method popular in the Northwest
which does not require (or tolerate?) waxing.  Swedish-finish floors really
hate alkaline substances, too, such as ammonia, and should be cleaned with
a vinegar solution.  I know from personal experience that Murphy's will
dull Swedish-finish faster than you can say "lutefisk."
      
-Brian

    The classic wax to use (at least in New England) is "Butcher's
    Bowling Alley Wax", available at Spag's (of course).

  Our floors were finished with a vinyl-based product called Hydroline.
  We're very happy with it but we were warned not to wax the floor because:
  a) it doesn't need it and b) if you do wax the floor, it means that
  another coat of Hydroline will not adhere properly.

  Does anyone know whether that advice applies to other floor finishes?
  I think that many polyurethane floor finishes are "refinished" simply
  by applying another coat.  If the wax can be completely removed, well
  and good.  But if it means that you've got to sand the floor before
  you apply another coat of poly, that could be a problem.

  Personally, I think waxing a hardwood floor means that anyone who tends 
  to walk around in socks is eventually going to fall down and get hurt.  And
  if you wax and use throw rugs without a non-slip pad underneath, even
  people who wear golf shoes around the house will eventually slip and fall.

  JP

re Note 822.16 by MYCRFT::PARODI:

>   I think that many polyurethane floor finishes are "refinished" simply
>   by applying another coat.  If the wax can be completely removed, well
>   and good.  But if it means that you've got to sand the floor before
>   you apply another coat of poly, that could be a problem.

Yes, poly over wax is a no-no.

Bob

    But how do you know what's on a floor???  I've got a 37 year old
    house with hardwood floors.  Are there any tricks to determining
    what was used to finish them; polyurethane, wax, other stuff?  Or
    are you just safer to sand it a bit and start from scratch?
    
    Phil

    I read all the notes on hardwood floor cleaning and I still am not
    sure how to clean my floors. This is the situation.
    
    We did over all the hardwood floors in our house. We resanded them
    and applied 3 coats of a mixture that consisted of 50% polyurethane
    and 50% paint thinner. This gives the effect of unfinished wood
    and doesn't give you that hard lacquer super shiny look you get
    with straight polyurethane. The down-side of applying this type
    of finish is that the floors are less protected because the seal
    isn't as hard or tight as one would get with straight polyurethane.
    Anyway, then we took down old plastered walls. The floors are now
    coated with dust from the plaster and which will not come up with
    just a damp cloth because it is ingrained in the wood. These are
    my questions.
    
    Given that my floors are not tightly sealed can I use a water base
    product like Murphy's. I started with it but it leaves the floors
    very wet and I think it will damage the wood if I continue. Is Murphy's
    the best product in this situation. Secondly, I have a buffer. Can
    I use the buffer to apply the cleaner and if so what type of pad
    do you use for this? Lastly, isn't the Butcher's bowling alley wax
    used only on unfinished floors? Can or even should I wax a floor
    with this type of finish?? 
    
    I appreciate any and all replies.
    Debbie Payne

     I have hardwood floors that are finished with polyurethane. I have
    never waxed them because I was told this makes it hard for future
    coats of polyurethane to adhere. Up till now, I have washed the
    floors with straight water. But water alone doesn't remove all the
    grime.
    
      Murphy's Oil is supposed to do a great cleaning job and leave
    behind an oil that penetrates the finish.
    
    My question is: Will Murphy's Oil interfere with adding coats of
                    polyurethane in the future?
    
    -Paul

    re .20, 21
    
    Anything you put down will interfere with the next coat of poly
    sticking. Poly sticks well to nothing, including itself, so you don't
    want to build up any unnecessary junk. You should always buff lightly
    with sandpaper or steel wool to give the new poly something to stick
    to. This buffing would remove any small amount of Murphy's Oil that
    would be left after cleaning - Murphy's cannot really "penetrate" a
    plastic finish. Also, you won't be able to poly over the dirt, so
    you'll have to remove it with something. 
    
    I'd clean the floor now to make it livable. Cleaning and buffing
    before you poly later will be a necessity anyway. 
    
    

    I have a hard-wood floor in my kitchen.  My husband used to use
    the Murphy's on it now he uses a mixture of vinegar and water. 
    It does the job and has not done a thing to the original finish.
    
    Julie
    

Has anyone ever used Watco oil floor finish before?? on soft pine??

gary

    Yes, I've use Watco. But on my Oak floor. I'm not entirely happy.
    This if for a family room, with a 2 yr old. So I'm seeing some staining
    from apple juice, dropped food, etc. 
    
    A friend also has Watco on his Oak floor. He also put some of the 
    Satin Wax on the floor. This is *not* recommended by Watco. (makes the
    floor too slippery) But, I wonder if the wax would help stop the staining
    problem. Anybody got any comments?
    
    

re.6
	yes, I've used the watco danish oil on pine.  It was only on the
	upstairs bedrooms which receive far less traffic.  It's been down
	for about 3 1/2 years and has stood up well.  I've since rented the
	house and it's now undergoing the real test.

	RE.7  I did try bowling alley wax, (hand applied and rubbed out) it
	DOES indeed make the floor very slippery especially in stocking feet
	but it also shed off spills and was easily dry mopped and vacuumed.

	Would I wax them again,  ya but very sparingly.

	Hope this was useful
	Frank

    When I talked to the Watco rep about using the Satin Wax, he was not
    particularly helpful. Just kept saying " we don't recommend it on 
    floors." I tried to get him to give me some suggestions for a more
    glossy finish, but he didn't have any.
    
    What I think I will try is using Satin Wax - Diluted!! This way it will
    hopefully not be as slippery, but I will still get the desired effect.
    
    Any comments?

We just had an *expensive* refinishing job in our study and entry.  The study
needed work because of a fish tank accident (see another note), the entry
because it was very worn.

They sanded down the floor and applied three coats of polyurethane for
about $1.60 per square foot.

The floor man said that if you clean with murphy's oil soap, or wax, that you
leave a film on the wood (really the poly) which then allows you to grind dirt
into the finish.  If you clean with ammonia and water, then there is no film.

Whay do you care?  Because if your floors ever get scratched badly enough, or
get a bad enough water stain, to require a refinishing, if there is no ground 
in dirt the top layer of poly can be removed and a new layer applied - .25 per
square foot.  Otherwise you have to sand down to the wood - painfully expensive.

I'm throwing out my Murphy's oil soap and wax.

Margaret.

Interesting, but I don't get it.  How does a film of wax or oil soap allow you 
to grind dirt into the finish any more than otherwise?  I mean I can understand 
how the film can cause the dirt to stick to the floor more, but gravity being 
what it is the dirt wasn't going anywhere else anyway.  And it's not like the 
film will cause your feet to grind the dirt in any more than if the dirt was 
just sitting there.  Besides, if the wood itself is scratched or waterstained,
you'll have to sand anyway. 

I have heard that floors that are looking dingy because the poly is scratched 
can be rejuvenated by a new coat of poly, and that an application of wax will 
prevent the new coat from adhering.  I can believe that Murphy's might do the 
same thing.  Maybe that's what the person was talking about.

Paul

The way it works is this:
	If you grind dirt into your finish, you will have to sand down to 
	bare wood in order to put down more poly.

	You can grind dirt into your floor two ways:
	   (1) Not vacuuming or cleaning them very often.
           (2) Cleaning them with something that leaves a film and catches
	       dirt.  The dirt then sticks to the film rather than going up
	       the vacuum cleaner or onto the mop, and you grind dirt into 
	       the floor.

Margaret.

I still don't get it.  The stuff that would be stuck in the film would be
minimal and very fine.  I don't know how often most people vacuum their floors,
but I would think that a very small amount of very fine dirt like that would
get replaced by normal living fairly quickly after a vacuuming, which would
nullify or minimize the negative effect of the film.  Plus, it seems like very
fine dirt like that wouldn't do all that much damage to the finish anyway.  I
would think that the dirt that would do significant damage would be the
larger-grit stuff which won't stick to the film. 

I'm not trying to be a pain, but the explanation just doesn't make sense to me.

Paul

I have a maple hardwood floor finished with ZIPguard.

I also have the book provided by ZIPguard.  They specifically
recommend that Murphy's soap NOT be used. You can get a copy
of the book at NO charge by calling them.


The also recommend no more than 3 coats. 

Gim

          I just cleaned a very dirty wood floor with Formby's Antique Furiture
Refinisher. Murphy's oil wasn't enuf. The floor is not "perfect" but it looks
100% better. I opened all the doors and windows and used 3 fans. 0000 steel
wool was my weapon of choice. 
          I finished up with Butchers Wax. I use a paint stirrer stick to smear
a few tablespoons of wax on a damp sponge mop and whisk it on the floor. I then
hand buffed it with terrycloth rags. If I had more than 1 small room to do I 
would rent a buffer. Actually, I'm saving up to buy one.
          I really love the way it came out. So do my kids(very slippery). Yes,
it is dangerous but, I had a great laugh when I chased the cat out of the room
and he slipped and couldn't get up!
           I had previously used bleach and vinegar and water, then wax on my
npt so bad living room and dining room. This worked OK, but I don't like
water on the old wood floors.
            The Formby's stuff really smells, and the odor lingers. I'm not
convinced it is the best method, but it worked, without damaging the original
finish(80 yr. old house).
            I'm still experimenting. I've tested denatured alky, turps, varnish
remover, and stripper on different finishes and the Formbys chemical soup was 
the only thing I was really impressed with. It even dissolves polyu. I think it
is composed of Toluene, Methylene(sp.)Chloride and Acetone.
            I have read that paint thinner should be used with 0000 steel wool
to strip wax off old wood. Has anybody tried this?
             The refinisher is pretty nasty stuff. And expensive. I'd like to 
find something less toxic and smelly, but it did work.
                                         Mary
                                     with the slippery cats

    I'm having a new kitchen floor done in wood. (I added on to the kitchen
    and we have decided wood is for us.) After reading all the NOTES about
    it, sounds like it will work.
    
    After reading all the notes here, it seems that some people clean the
    floor with Murphys, others do not. The floor people specifically said
    do NOT clean with anything but water/vinegar solution for these floors.
    The floors are oak, with one coat of sealure, 2 coats of poly. The
    floor people said that Murphys will get in-between the layers of poly,
    and the top layer will peel. I guess I'll wash ONLY with water/vinegar.
    
    		Jerry
    

    We have oak floors throughout the first floor of our house.  We use
    Murhphy's diluted quite a bit (1 part Murphy's to 4-5 parts water?) to
    clean our floors.  Damp mop them perhaps 3-4 times per year.
    
    4+ years and no problems.
    
    Chet

>    We have oak floors throughout the first floor of our house.  We use
>    Murhphy's diluted quite a bit (1 part Murphy's to 4-5 parts water?) to

I'm sure that a solution of Murphy's this diluted works fine...  But if your 
floors are covered with coats of poly, then it's the poly you're washing and 
not the wood...

Dan

    Murphy's is good, but also builds up.  A good cleaning solution is 
    warm water w/ white vinegar.  We used it on our floors(and wood walls) 
    and it does a real nice job.   

    We have a hard wood floor in our kitchen.  My husband is responsible
    for washing it.  He's used nothing but white vinegar and water.  This
    was recommended to him from a cleaning agency.
    
    The floor still looks great after 6 years.  However, it's starting to
    take a beating from our 2 year old son!
    

    To those people using white vinegar and water to clean their hardwood
    floors:   how many parts of each do you use ?
    
    Thanks!
    
    Lori                        

    1 gallon very hot water to 1 cup vinegar.
    
    Wash floor with sponge then wipe with a clean cloth which prevents
    steaking.
    

    I'm almost embarassed to ask this question, but I can't figure out what
    to do, so ask I will.
    
    Over the past several months we've had all the plaster walls in our old
    house removed and replaced with sheetrock. The workers did a pretty
    good job of cleaning up after themselves, but it's certainly not clean
    enough to live in. 
    
    My question is this: How do I get all that plaster/"mud" dust off the
    floors? I've got wood floor (oak, and fir on other floors), and
    especially the fir floors are not in good shape. The grain is raised,
    the varnish is gone in some places. I've got dust in all those
    crevices. I mop, but the dust just moves around. I've mopped and mopped
    and mopped, and still the dust. I've tried the one-bucket-for-clean-
    water, one-bucket-for-dirty-water method, and still I've got dust.
    Surely other people have had this problem. How did you clean up the
    dust?
    
    Cathy

    Sweep with a fine bristle push broom.  I have a Bruske "Blue" which
    has flagged bristle ends like a paint brush.  The dust particles it
    sweeps are actually too fine for a dust pan and brush to pick up.
    
    Then mop with an almost dry sponge mop.  Rinse and change water
    frequently.  Repeat as needed (often).  All the plaster dust will
    eventually come up.  It helps to push only in one direction with the
    mop.  Mopping back and forth only re-distributes the dust.
    
    - gene

    My specialty!
    
    We've been doing major renovations for the past three years which
    involved taking down plaster and lath walls throughout half the house. 
    More fun would be harder to imagine.  In any event, the magic
    ingredient for cleaning up plaster dust is water.  Every month or so we
    turn the place upside down and sponge down the floors and every
    semi-horizontal surface.  Sponge, rinse, repeat.  As the prior noter
    said, rinse frequently and use a damp, not wet, sponge.  Be prepared
    to do this a couple of times - let things dry before you wipe them
    again, and you will be able to see the traces of (now dried-mud-like)
    plaster.
    
    And - DON'T VACUUM!  There is no quicker way to spread the dust
    everywhere that to fire up a vacuum cleaner.  Plaster dust also eats
    vacuum motors.
    
    Good luck - my sympathies.
    
    Dana

    re:39
    
    	Would it be OK to vacuum if you had a central vac ?
    
    	Ray

    what about seeing if you can rent one of those cleanroom type 
    vacuums that use water to filter the dust and dirt through???
    we had a demonstration of the Rainbow cleanning system a few
    weeks ago and it sounds like that type of thing would work 
    well on this dust problem.

    justme....jacqui

They don't work - in fact, they tend to blow more dust back into the room
than other kinds of vacuums, according to Consumer Reports.  

			Steve

    I've never had the luxury of a central vac system, but if I did, I
    surely would not want to chew up the ($$) system with plaster dust.  It
    is *very* fine, and *very* abrasive.  Do try the sponging method - it
    works for me.
    
    And, in a past life, a friend of mine had a Rainbow vac and was doing
    destruction on his house - he bought it (also $$$) because he thought
    it would do a great job on the plaster/sawdust.  It was next to
    worthless.
    
    Dana

Would a HEPA vacuum work?  They use them for asbestos cleanup and the like.
They're very expensive, so my question is purely hypothetical.

    
    Yes, vacuum cleaners tend to self-destruct; the bags also get uselessly
    clogged in very short order.
    
    This suggestion is too late once you're in cleanup mode, But I've found
    it very effective as a preventative meassure (especially in keeping the
    dust local) -- put a cheap portable fan in a window in the wreck-room,
    blowing out, then close all other windows and leave a door open to the
    rest of the house. The air flow will keep the dust from migrating out of
    the room, and a significant amount of said dust will go right out the
    window. And, when you get really bored, throw a handful of dust
    directly at the fan.
    

    
    I have an old Genie wet/dry vac that I use for plaster dust & such.
    For $7 a piece you can get a couple of extra hoses.  Connect these
    together and to the blower outlet and you can pipe the dust right out
    of a window.  The Genie has not had a filter in it for a few years and is
    still going strong.
    
    Colin
    

    
    
    re: -1   Hey, I like that!
    
    We use an old Hoover canister vacuum (one of those cheap, tow around
    plastic jobs). I take a light weight weight towel and throw it over
    the exhaust port. Most of the dust gets caught in the bag... but
    whatever escapes is caught in the towel. Might be bad for the motor,
    but we've picked up many pounds of dust this way and the vacuum 
    hasn't complained yet.
    
    								- Mac
                              

    we worked pretty hard to get that dust off the subfloors before
    I put down the hardwood.  I could really tell the difference when
    I started laying hte border in the one room we didn't mop.
    
    the topic is straying here :-) but any advice for getting the dust
    off the fireplace brick once it has settled in?
    
    ed

    ref. to serveral back.
    
    I just removed a wall-to-wall carpet in the soon-to-be-dining room. The
    hardwood floor underneath is still in very good shape (smooth and no
    raised grain).  My wife used to apply some brand of liquid wax every 
    copule month to make the floor look shinny before we put in the carpet 
    10yrs ago. Most of the floor (90%) still look kind of shinny. However,
    a few small spots got real dull (look like the poly was gone). Since
    the floor is still in pretty good shape, don't think I want to go to
    the extreme of sanding the floor down to bare wood.
    
    Can I just clean up the wax, re-apply 1 (or 2) coat of poly without
    complelely sanding down to bare wood ? May be use a small palm sander
    with very fine (200+ grite) sand paper to smooth the serface first ? 
    
    Some previous notes suggested to use 1) hot water + vinegar, 2)
    MURPHY'S oil soap, 3) Formby's Antique Furiture Refinisher. Are these
    for cleaning/removing dirts ? do they also remove wax ? Or may be
    poly/varnish too ?  If not, any recommendation on what to use to remove 
    just the wax (and/or poly) ? I have a palm sander, and is going to buy
    one of those 11 inch car buffer/waxer to help to get the job done.
    
    Kenneth
    

    
    re: .48
    
    >...any advice for getting the dust off the fireplace brick once it has
    >settled in?
    
    My suggestion is to dab on full-strength (i.e., straight out of the
    bottle) muriatic acid. Apply right on the brick (avoiding the mortar)
    using a rag, rubber gloves, eye protection, clothing you no longer
    want, and lots of ventilation.
    
    After you get the satisfying fizz of dissolving dust, wipe the brick
    down with a water-soaked rag.
    
    JP