Conference 7.286::home_work

    In southern NH (Nashua), what are the code requirements for water
    pressure in new construction?

    To be strictly correct, you'll also have to take into account:
    	Length of the run
    	Number of bends (elbows)
    	Constrictions in the faucet and other shutoff valves that may
    	   be in the line
        Vertical rise
    In other words, I'm not sure any number you'd get would really tell
    you much.  I also don't know what the formula would be, so I guess
    I'm no help at all!
    
    I do have one suggestion - check the screen (if there is one) on the 
    outlet of the faucet.  The aerator gizzie should just unscrew, and
    you'll be able to get at the screen and the little holes in the
    aerator.  They sometimes plug up with random junk and make it appear
    as though your water pressure has gone to hell.  Happened to me
    in my bathroom.

    
    	Well Tom, you can make a rough estimate on the pressure from
    the water flow.  You will have to make a *Big* assumption that the
    height of the water tank is on the same level as the outlet.  The
    real solution is to use the complete Bernoulli Equation which would
    make the problem impossible to solve.
    
    	Start by converting  Z (gals of water/min)*(.133 ft3/gal)=(ft3/min)

    	(ft3/min)/(ft2 area of pipe)= ft/min fluid flow= 60*(ft/sec)flow                                                              
                  
    	Now, Delta P = .5(density of water)(velocity)**2/(Gm)
    		              
    	Substituting:
    		density of water= 7.5 lbs/ft3
    		velocity = ft/sec
    		Gm = 32.2 ft/sec2
    
    	gives you answer with units of (lbs/ft2).
                                                 
    		I think it will work, at least the units work out. 
    Good luck trying to explain it to the builder!

>        I do have one suggestion - check the screen (if there is one) on the 
>    outlet of the faucet. 
    
    This is especially true with new construction.  There's lot of metal
    shavings or bits of solder in there when the plumbing is first done.
    Check the pressure with the screens removed.
    

    RE: .3
    
    Does 7.5 lbs/ft3 translate to 7.5 lbs per cubic foot of water?
    
    I think you may have this confused with 7.5 gal per cubic foot 
    of water. Yes?
    
    Charlie

What you are trying to measure has a lot of value to you but may not be what
the code is enforcing.  When the faucet is open the outlet is at atmospheric
presure.  When the valve is off the presure goes up.  The only presure that 
makes any sense is the static presure.  If you try to measure the presure drop
through a length of pipe by the flow you have to think about the pipe it 
connects to.  You could measure the static presure by getting some clear 
hose and close it off at one end.  Get a fixed volume of air in your hose and
then apply your presure to it. The ratio of your old and new volumes is equal 
to the ratio of your static presure to atmospheric presure which is somewhere
around 15 psi. Measuring gallons per minute is what you care about but that is
effected by the static water presure and the constrictions in the water path
all the way back.

Good luck

Could have sworn I saw this mentioned already but reading the notes with
the basement keyword came up empty.  Pointer or advice appreciated.


I have this basement (so the story begins) that is very water tight with a
single exception, where the connection to city water comes into the house.
There's a 4" hole around a 1/?" pipe.  We live on a slope with good
drainage so it takes a LOT of wet before any water comes into the basement
(rolly polly bugs come in anytime. . .) but we got water towards the end of
NHs summer monsoon season this year, and with all the snow I expect this
spring will be more of a thin brown gruel season than mud season.  

So.  How do I seal this hole.  Will hydraulic(?) cement work?  Or will it
expand to the point of crushing the water pipe?  Perhaps just install a
shop vac with the hose taped into place and leave it running :-)

- Byron

    Hydraulic cement would be the first thing to try, I'd say.  Clean
    out as much crud on the sides of the hole as you can first, of
    course, so it's clean.  I can't imagine it would crush the pipe,
    the ends of the hole aren't close off.  Besides, it doesn't expand
    that much.  Put in as much cement as you can, as deeply into the
    hole as you can get it, and hope it works.  If it doesn't, next
    thing would be to dig down on the outside of the founation and
    repeat the operation from that side.
    

    We have been experiencing some water pressure problems at home.
    When the washer, which is in the cellar, is filling, there is no
    water on the first floor. The other day I ran downstairs just in
    time to hear the pump kick in. The pressure gage was reading 30
    psi and quickly rising to 40 psi, where I think it is supposed to
    be. Lately, it's been so low that it takes the washer a lot more
    time to fill up. Pressure seems ok when the washer isn't using water.
    Could it be the temperature playing games with the pipes or
    the pump controls? With the weather like it's been the past few
    weeks, I swear it's darn close to freezing down there. The last
    thing I want to do is call the $$plumber$$ to find out I could have
    done something myself.

    The slow washer fill could be the filter screens in the hoses are
    plugged.
    
    The lack of water pressure on first floor when the washer is filling,
    seems a little strange when the washer is filling slowly.  Almost
    sounds like an obstruction in the line somewhere.  Did someone
    partially close a valve somewhere by any chance?
    
    

    Is the air chamber in your pressure tank waterlogged, maybe?  Try
    turning on a faucet and watching the pressure gage. If the pressure
    drops rapidly, pump comes on and builds up pressure rapidly and
    shuts off, the pressure drops rapidly, etc. you probably need to
    pump some air into the pressure tank.

    Thanks for both your replies (.1 & .2). I will check on your
    suggestions tonight.

     Don't forget to check the gauge. Those pump gauges fail all the
    time and are very prone to sticking. If you pump shuts off at 40
    it should not come on at 30. 20-40 is the normal setting for on
    and off. While you could have a waterlogged tank, it does not affect
    the actual pressure coming out, just how often the pump has to turn
    on.
    
    					Kenny

    I think .2 is right. I tested it last night by opening a few faucets.
    The pressure went down to 30, the pump started, pressure went up
    to 40, pump stopped, pressure went down...
    
    No valves have been shut off, though.
    
    .4, is there a reason why the pump should start at 20 instead of
    30? Does it need to be reset somehow?
    
    Thanks again,
    Sal

     The reason it should go from 20-40 is so that the pump doesn't
    cycle so often. I have never seen or heard of a pump that cycles
    30-40. That leads me to think that there is something wrong either
    with your gauge, or the the pressure switch that turns the pump
    on/off.
      It does sound as if your tank is water-logged. This still won't
    affect the way the pressure acts in the line. If the pressure never
    goes below 30, then irregardless of how ofetn the pump cycles you
    should have 30 psi (minimum) available. If that's the case then
    you have some other problems with your lines. Of course there will
    be a drop in pressure at one faucet when another is turned on, but
    it shouldn't be to the extent you are experiencing.
    
    					Kenny

    I think the gage is accurate. I checked the pressure in the tank
    with a tire pressure what-do-you-call-it and the reading was the
    same. I should check the switch to see what it is set at, if that
    is at all possible. I will also try and pump some air in.
    
    I am inclined to believe that I have some amount of ice in the pipes.
    As I said before, it can get mighty cold down there. I guess we've
    been lucky they haven't burst.
    
    I'll post my findings.
    
    Thanks,
    Sal

    I flushed the tank this weekend to find out there was an enormous
    amount of sediment settled in the bottom of the tank. Of course,
    then I remembered that we have a filter which was only three months
    old but with the amount of sediment coming out of the tank, it needed
    replacing. They usually last over six months.  I adjusted the switch
    to 20-40. The hardest thing was figuring out which screw controlled
    the high and which controlled the low. I am a beginner at this,
    what do I know? Anyway, the problem is resolved. Thanks one more
    time for your help.

    re .8 
    
    I have a pump with two adjustments which are really two bolts.
    One bolt is longer than the other.  I keep twisting and testing the
    nuts which adjust a spring loaded shutoff switch until the start and
    stop pressures appear close enough to 20-40 psi.  I have never been
    able to figure out which shaft controls what.  It appears that one bolt
    controls the turn on pressure (20 psi) and the other bolt controls the
    number of lbs. offset before the pump shuts off.  Does anyone have
    a pump with this type of adjustment?  If so, is there some kind
    of "scientific" approach to this adjustment process?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Tom
    
     
                                                              
                                                              

    The switch on my pump is like yours. Both bolts have a spring under
    them which is what increases or decreases the resistance of the
    switch to the water pressure. The tighter the spring, the more pressure
    it will resist. I will have to check on this (how soon I forget!)
    but I think the small bolt controls the low (turn on) pressure
    and the larger bolt controls the high (turn off). I will check it
    out this weekend and let you know.

    I checked the switch and I was right. The small bolt controls the
    off pressure and the large bolt controls the on pressure. What I
    do is open a few faucets to bring the pressure down. If I want to
    adjust the off pressure, I turn the power off at the main box and
    procede to adjust. Close the main valve to the house so pressure
    will build up rapidly (remember the faucets are open elsewhere in
    the house), turn the power on and watch where the pump turns off.
    Then open the main valve, allow the pressure to decrease and
    adjust again if needed. The same procedure can be used to adjust
    the on pressure.

    
    I own an older two family house with a terrible water pressure.
    If the first floor is taking a shower, the second gets practically
    nothing, and vice versa.  The plumbing has been converted to copper,
    but the main from the street is an old galvanized line.  The water
    department tells me it was put in 1934.  Even though it seems clear
    that this is the problem, is there any way to make sure before I
    sink the $$$ for a new main line?  Also, any ideas how much this
    would cost?  Anything I can do to reduce those costs?
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Steve
    
    P.S.  The city recently put in new lines in the street, and my
          neighbors report excellent pressure.
    

    
    	I've also got a 30's vintage galvnaized water main.  The
    interesting thing about galvanized lines is that they rust from
    the inside out.  The water gets brown and chunks break off and
    clog the line lowering the pressure.  I have to flush my water heater
    every week.  The only way I can think of to check is to flush your
    water heater and check for rust.  Does your water run brown?
    	My town replaces the water lines with a heavy gauge copper line 
    for about $10 per foot.  I'm on the list to get mine done.
                                                                
    						=Ralph=

    I had the galvanized pipe in the house when I fist moved in. The
    main from the street was fairly new so I had good pressure coming
    in. When I replaced the galvanized pipe my pressue incease
    dramatically. The old pipe was almost fully clogged with rust. Check
    with the town and see what they say. They should be able to give
    you an estimate. Sooner or later the old pipe will either clog
    completely or break.
    
    Mark

    Check to see if you have a pressure regulator on the water line.
    It should be pretty close to your water meter (probably on the house
    side of the meter).  It'll probably look something like a truncated
    cone with a screw coming out of the top of it, the whole business
    maybe 4-5" high.  These things sometimes jam, and reduce the pressure
    more than they are set to.  

re: .3

>    These things sometimes jam, and reduce the pressure
>    more than they are set to.  

How do you Check/adjust it? I have a pressure guage downstream of the 
thing. Turn on the water or flush a toilet and the pressure drops by 
half. To me this means that 1) insufficient pressure from the street. 
or 2) regulator not regulating - or is it just a reducing valve?

Chuck

    You adjust them by turning the screw on top, but I'm not sure how
    much or which way.  I think the usual thing to do is to replace
    one when it starts giving problems.  However, it might not be the
    problem, of course....
    

    	I had one of those on my house in Rochester NY. If I remember
    correctly you turn the screw in to increase presure. There was a
    locking nut on mine so be sure to loosen it before the adjustment
    is made and tighten it after. They are used to reduce presure in
    the house to a usable level but in my case was a big pain with problems
    like describe in previous notes. My "reducer" was located after
    one of the outside faucets in above a ceiling in the basement. So
    you may have to hunt for yours...

No, mine is easy to get to, also has a pressure guage right next to it.

When no water is running it sits at about 90 (psi?). Turn on the sink, 
and it drops to 45. From my memories of fluid dynamics, this would be 
approriate for a reducing valve. On the other hand, it would be nice if 
indeed it was a true pressure regulator, which I think it is. I'll try 
adjusting it and see if anything changes (like bursting a pipe 8-)

Chuck

i *think* this note answered my question, but I want to 
double-check...

My house has the old "flush-the-toilet-when-someone's-in-the-shower
and-scald-him" problem.  

The water line comes into the house, past a turn-on, thru an inverted 
cone thingamajigger with a single screw at the top, thru a water meter 
(no pressure gauge here), thru another turnoff, and out into the house.

Do I just turn the screw on the thingamigger?  which way? how much?

thanx/j

The house is 26yrs old

    'Nother thing that works as a quick fix is to simply lower the rate
    at which the toilet refills by closing down the valve to the toilet.
    This also greatly reduces the noise as the toilet refills.  Don't
    do this if you tend to get people lined up for the facility though.
    
    /Dave

    Re: "inverted cone thingamajigger with a single screw"

    This sound like a pressure reducing valve. The screw on top is used to
    adjust the pressure. On mine (a Watts) you turn "clockwise" to increase
    the pressure. This probably will not solve your scalding shower problem
    though. 

    It also sounds like you don't have an "anti-scald" shower valve or a
    properly functioning one. These are required in most areas now for any
    new plumbing or rework. They maintain the water temp. you set by
    adjusting the hot and cold water automatically. So if some one flushes
    the toilet, the only thing you notice in the shower is a reduction in
    the flow, NOT A CHANGE IN THE TEMPATURE. 

    Charly 

    Re: 26 years old

    Besides the anit-scald valve that I just mentioned, you can have
    adequate water pressure but not enough water volume. 

    Back in the good old days (26 years ago in your case), they probably
    only used 1/2 pipe for all of your inside supply lines. This limits the
    amount of water that can flow to the various fixtures. In my house
    which was plumbed about 7 years ago, they used 3/4 inch pipe for the
    major supply runs and branched off to the various fixutres with 1/2
    inch pipe. This greatly reduces pressure drops when more than one thing
    is turned on. 

    Charly

    I doubt that changing the pressure would fix your problem.  Your
    problem is the pressure differential that develops between the hot
    and cold water lines when somebody opens up a faucet (or flushes
    the toilet, same thing) in the cold water line.  
    Changing the rate of fill on the toilet would help, or put in an
    anti-scald shower valve.  Or replace the (presumably) 1/2" lines
    with 3/4", although if there is a significant flow restriction in 
    your water heater that might not help much.

tell me more about an anti-scald shower valve -
do I have to replace the hot and cold faucets?

thanx

      An anti-scald shower valve is one faucet combining both hot and 
    cold faucets.  The idea behind it is if you are taking a shower
    and someone decides to wash the car, you won't get scalded.  As
    stated earlier, they mix the hot and cold water and when the supply
    of cold water decreases, this valve decreases the amount of hot
    water to make up for it.  These things are not cheap but Spag's
    does have good prices on them.  I ended up getting the Symmons version
    instead of the Delta.  I'm not too keen on Delta.  Also, with the
    Delta, you have a choice of full water pressure or no pressure.
    The Symmons will allow you to regulate the pressure.  Don't let
    places like Somerville scare you into thinking that you will not
    be able to sell your house because you don't have one of these.
    I suppose anything is possible but when was the last time you heard
    of house not being sold because of a shower valve.
    
    -Jim
    

    Re: .13
    
    Yes, you'd have to replace the whole works.  If you have a single-
    lever valve on the shower now it would be a moderate amount of work.
    If you have individual faucets it could get pretty involved with
    replumbing, especially if the shower comes from a diverter in the
    spout that goes to the bathtub.  Then you'd (probably) have to 
    completely redo the plumbing for the shower AND the bathtub.
    
    Another thought; changing to a low-flow "water saver" shower
    head might help some, too.

I'm curious what is a reasonable water pressure for internal pipes.

Like .0, I get no water on the second floor of my old house when
water is running on the ground floor.  But unlike .0, I have
all new copper pipes.  All the valves are open, and the pressure
tank on my well stays around 70 psi (I think) with no water running.

If raising the water pressure can fix this, that'd be great.  The
other thing I'm worried about is the pipe sizes.  The pipe out of
the tankless water heater in my oil furnace is some size, I guess 3/4".
Then the pipe splits to feed the washer, with the same size pipe 
coming in as going out.  Then it splits again to feed the downstairs 
bath/kitchen and the upstairs bath, again with the same size pipe
on all three sides of the T.  Am I going to have to change the pipe
sizing to run water upstairs and downstairs at the same time?

	Thanks,
	Larry

    I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to measure water pressure
    in a home?  I have looked at all the notes on water pressure and
    there does not seem to be one on how to measure water pressure.
    
    Thanks.
    Connie
    

    Here's one way.  Buy a pressure gauge from a water pump supply place;
    it will have, in all probability, a 1/4" pipe thread on it.  Get
    a tee fitting (and possibly an adapter bushing) to match that thread,
    with the "run" of the tee matching your water pipe.
    Cut your water pipe at the point you want to measure the pressure,
    put in the tee, screw in the gauge, and turn the water back on (note:
    you turned the water off before you cut the water pipe to put in
    the tee....).  Read the pressure on the gauge.

    If you want to check the pressure without cutting the line buy a
    3/4" hose fitting to 1/2" thread, and then screw in a 1/2" to 1/4"
    reducer and then your gauge. I bought all the parts at Spags for
    about $5. Just attatch to your outside water faucet, or an inside
    faucet, to get your reading.
                                                           Chris

    .2 is definitely the way to go.  I didn't realize you could get
    an adapter for a sillcock that would adapt to pipe thread, but
    it just goes to demonstrate, once again, that in plumbing you
    can get the fittings to adapt anything to anything.

for $4 at spag's you can buy a pressure gauge that screws right onto a 
garden hose type faucet. (also found at washing machines).
in fact, if you ask i'll send you mine through interoffice mail and you can 
return it the same way.  -craig

	I recently moved into a house which has a well water system that I am
    not very familiar with.  The well is in the back yard and has a
    silver capped pipe shaped device that sticks up out of the ground
    about 12 inches.  I assume that this is part of a pumping system.
    
    	Inside my garage is also some sort of device which also has
    something to do with pumping water through the house.  There appears
    to be some sort of pressure tank along with associated hardware
    and valve type devices.  The previous owner had boxed all of this
    stuff in with plywood and filled up the box with insulation.
    
    	The problem I am having is that the water in the house has started
    to pulse as it comes out of the tap.  It has gotten progressively
    worse over the last few weeks.  Also, this system in the garage
    makes a banging noise with each pulse of the water out of the tap.
    
    	My guess is that air has gotten into this system somehow and
    it needs to be primed or bled.  Can anyone educate me as to how
    this system works and how I might fix this problem?
                                             
    				Ben Lasher
    

    The devices in your garage are probably the pressure tank and regulator
    equipment. Inside the tank is usually a rubber divider which separates
    the tank into two chambers. The lower chamber (if the tank is vertical)
    contains water pumped from the well by the pump, which is probably
    submerged in the bottom of the well. The upper chamber contains
    compressed air. Water is pumped into the tank, against the compressed
    air (now being further compressed) until the pressure limit is reached
    and the regulator shuts off the pump. When you open a faucet, it
    is actually the compressed air which is pushing the water out. When
    the pressure drops to the low limit, the regulator turns on the
    pump until the high limit is again reached. This has several
    advantages. The pump does not have to come on every time water is
    drawn, saving waer and tear on the pump and added electricity to
    start pump each time. The water flow is smoothed since there is
    not the initial pressure drop and pulsations caused by pump phases.
    
    A common problem which happens to these systems is that the compressed
    air charge in the tank is lost over time, usually lost to the water
    in the tank below the floating rubber seal. When this happens the
    pump will cycle on and off frequently and pulsations will be felt.
    The fix is to recharge the top chamber. Usually there will be a
    valve on top of the tank for this purpose (looks a little lika a
    tire valve). I would suggest, however, that if you are unfamiliar
    with doing this, you should call a plumber or someone else familiar
    with maintaining water wells to perform this. There is probably
    a specific procedure (like draining some water and shutting off
    the pump) while this is accomplished, as well as specific air pressure
    to be put in. If you watch this process you could probably do it
    yourself in the future.
    
    This may not be the problem, but it is a common problem with wells.
    It happened before to me as well as my brother-in-law. By the way,
    the reason for insulation and enclosure in your garage is probably
    to keep it from freezing if garage door was to be left open in winter.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    Larry

What usually happens in this type of tank in that the rubber 
bladder wears. If the bladder has indeed worn, the fix in .1 will 
only last a week or so and you'll be "recharging" again. You MAY 
be looking at a new tank if you want to fix the problem 
permanently. If you do go for a new tank, there are better 
designs on the market. Stay away from this bladder type system. 
If you do decide to keep recharging, understand that the 
inefficiency of the tank will put a strain on your pump.

Good luck
daryll

    	I'm not sure that all tanks have a bladder. Mine is a fairly
    old tank and the manual doesn't say anything about a bladder. In
    any case I usually have to drain my tank about once a year. Sometimes
    more often if we have run out of water in the well ( an occasional
    happening at my house). 
    	I do it by 1: turn off the pump.
    		   2: turn off the isolation valve to the house.
    		   3: Connect a hose to the drain valve of the tank
    		   4: run the hose out on the lawn or to a drain
    		   5: open the drain valve
    		   6: drain all the water out of the tank. Note it is
    sometimes necessary to add air pressure to the tank at the pressure
    valve ( it looks a little like a valve stem of a bicycle tire on
    mine). This is to overcome the vacuum that builds up in the sealed
    tank while draining. This vacuum will cause you to not get the tank
    fully drained and you won't get the full benefit of your labor.
    		   7: When fully drained close the drain valve.
                   8: pressurize the tank to the recommended precharge
    pressure. MIne is about 15 psi. If you have a compressor handy it's
    easy. If you have an air tank that you can take to a compressor
    and charge and then bring back to your water tank it'll take two
    or three trips. Or you can connect a bicylce pump to the charge
    valve and pump it up to presure. This will take awhile so bring
    lots of arm power and a six pack to tide you over.
    		  9: turn on the pump ( don't worry if you hear water
    rushing into the tank mine always does that.)
    		  10: presure is up. Turn on the water to the house.
    		  11: Check the water flow and presure. If it's good
    have a beer to celebrate. If it's bad have a beer to comiserate.
    

Older water tanks do not have a bladder.  The water is in contact with 
the pressurized air, and the air is eventually absorbed into the water.
Such a no-bladder system should be able to go years between recharges.  
(Mine does.)  Bladder systems were created to minimize (theoretically to
*eliminate*) the absorption and necessity for recharging. 

The amount of recharge air-pressure determines the volume of water
pumped/extracted between the high and low pressure limits.  There's a chart
near my pump giving the correspondence, but since I'm not at home and I
don't remember what's on the chart, I can't supply the numbers.  Note 546.2
describes a system with min/max/air pressures of 20/40/25 psi. 

FYI, the two pressure limits are set by two nuts pressing on springs in the
control box.  (Actually, one is a limit adjustment and the other is an
offset adjustment.)  There should be no need for you to change these
adjustments.

You simply need to put some air back into your tank.  The procedure is
fairly straightforward.

Assuming your control box is mounted horizontally (cover-nut on top), the
ON position of the lever is horizontal.  Turn the lever to the OFF position
(vertical), thereby turning off power to the pump.  There should be a 
twist-handle and an outlet (like an outside-the-house faucet) in the piping
at the base of the tank.  Attach a garden hose, open the valve, drain the
tank, close the valve.  (If you don't have such a valve, open the lowest
cold-water tap in the house to drain as much water out of the tank as
possible.  Then close the tap.) 

Now attach an air pump (e.g. for bicycle tires) to the air valve on the 
side or top of the tank.  (If the tank is not empty, you'll let some water 
out and have to clean up later.  Also, you'll have to get the water out of 
the pump by operating it unattached.)  Pump to the desired pressure.  (Note
546.2 suggests 25 psi.)  Remove the air pump.  Now it's time to put water
back into the tank. 

Switch the control-box lever back to the ON position.  The water pump most 
likely will come on -- you'll hear the pump (if it's an above-ground pump) 
or you'll hear the water coming in (if you have a submersed pump).  (And
you *did* remember to close the cold-water tap you opened earlier, right?) 
If the pump does not come on, it must be primed.  (Don't worry, it's
self-priming.)  Push the control lever down beyond the ON position to the
non-latching (spring-return) PRIME position.  Hold it there until the
pressure gauge comes up to a reasonable value, about 20 to 40 psi.  If
there's no pressure gauge on the line (unlikely), hold the lever for 5 or
10 seconds, then release it (to the ON position) and listen for water
flowing. 

You should be done now, but if not, try priming again.  Do not hold the 
lever in the PRIME position for more than 10 or 15 seconds, though, or you 
could risk burning out the pump motor.  (Don't be too alarmed.  I don't 
really think you'll burn out the motor *that* soon.  I just don't want to be 
blamed if you hold the lever too long and do burn out the motor.  :-( ) 

Got water pressure? -- put the insulation back and go relax.
No? -- call your local well-and-pump company.

Apologies to the author of .3, which says essentially what my .4 says.
When I started typing my note, .3 was not there.  And after all that work, 
I'd rather not just delete .4.  Maybe the control-lever description 
constitutes added value.  :-)

    Thanks for all the good info.  In a few days, I'll get back to you
    and let you know if I am having a beer to celebrate or a beer to
    comiserate.
    
    		Ben

The air pressure you charge the bladder with should be less than
the "min" or "cut-in" pressure on the pump control.  For example (this
is the only one given on my pump) you charge wuth 18 psi if your cut-in is 20.

If you charge with more air pressure all the water must be forced out of the
tank for the pump to cut in.  This results in a sudden drop in pressure when
the pump cuts in.

FYI, my bladder has the water on top and the air on the bottom.  My pump
(shallow well) is mounted on top of the tank.  Bladderless systems (which
I replaced 5 years ago) have an "air volume control" which prevents too
much air from being trapped in the tank.  I don't think it helps to
keep *enough* air in the tank.  But I don't have to worry about that now...!
                     --tom

    I have a bladderless tank and used the solution described with success.
    Do replace the tank valve I discovered that was the reason for my
    tank losing pressure. I calculated that to achieve 25psi with a
    bicycle pump would take around 3000 pumps! I rigged up my 12volt
    tire compressor and it did it in ~30mins.Thanks to Ben for raising
    it and everyone who has contributed.
    

    I'm back...and at this very moment I am having a beer to celebrate,
    but not over confidently.
       
    I shut off the pump ( I actually have a light switch installed over
    the system which turns on and off power to the pump).  Then I drained
    what I could from the tank.  Then, after closing the drains, I returned
    power to the pump.  Enough water was pumped into the tank to create
    enough air pressure to be satisfactory throughout the house.  I
    also added a few hundred pumps from a HAND bicycle pump (don't have
    anything else).  
    
    I turned on some faucets and:
    
    	- success, the pulsing was gone and water pressure was O.K.
    
    	- the water was disgusting.. I assume that I have not even been
    using the water in the tank for months.  The water has been coming
    straight from the pump in the well.  So I let the water run until
    it cleared up, and, things are looking good.
    
    I think what had happened was that the tank was completely filled
    with water due to some kind of air leak (which I am looking for
    now).
    
    A couple more questions:
    
    1.) I have little attachments to my outside water spickets which
    seem to be designed to prevent anything (water or air) from traveling
    back in the direction of the water system.  Do these things play
    a role in this type of system.  (Hmmm, I removed one of those from
    an outside spicket a few months ago).
    
    2.) There is a unit attached to the water line coming from the well
    to the tank.  This unit appears to be an electrical device which
    senses pressure and tells the pump to turn on.  It seems to me that
    I can pump air into the tank, but the well pump is only going to
    pump water into the tank until it reaches a certain pressure,
    reagrdless of the amount of air I pump into it.  If this is true,
    can I adjust this unit to allow the well pump to stay on longer?
    There is some sort of adjustment screw on it, but it isn't labeled.
    
    3.) Any guesses as to whether or not I have a bladder tank?  The
    house is 9 years old, and I am guessing this is the original system.
    
    
    Sorry for being so lengthy......and thanks for the help.
    
    		Ben
    

    
    1.) I have little attachments to my outside water spickets which
    seem to be designed to prevent anything (water or air) from traveling
    back in the direction of the water system.  Do these things play
    a role in this type of system.  (Hmmm, I removed one of those from
    an outside spicket a few months ago).

This sounds like an anti-siphon valve.  It's there so that if your
pump fails and water starts flowing back down into your well, it
can't siphon dirty water from your hose (or from the mud puddle the
hose is laying in) back down into your well.  There's an air gap 
between the valve that fills your toilet tank and the water in the
tank for the same reason -- it's ok to siphon air back down into
your well, but I'd hate to have the toilet water mix in down there.

Sorry I don't know answers to your other questions.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Reading in the Ortho plumbing book it said to check the water pressure
    at the front of the house where it enters via a hose spigot and
    pressure guage.  Then check the pressure on the back of the house
    via a hose spigot.  The pressure should be about 5 lbs less in the
    back then the front due to all the plumbing in the house.
    
    As a safety tip....
    Have the face of the guage turned AWAY from you when turning on
    the water.  They have been known to blow apart.  Once the water
    is on, then check the guage.  The inital blast of water down the
    line and hitting a dead end apparently is more than some guages
    can stand.
  

    Re .5
    To alleviate the initial blast of water, why not turn the spigot
    on slowly and ease the water into the guage?
    
    Ed..
    

    Unless you are having a problem with the water pressure, like too high,
    too low, too wide a range between pump cycles, or too short a range
    between cycles, you shouldn't need to adjust the pressure switch.  All
    that switch does is regulate turn-on and turn-off pressures for the
    pump.  In the system I used to have, the turn on was about 20 lbs and
    the turn off about 40.  That is fairly low pressure if you are used to
    city water or higher pressure well systems, most of which don't exceed
    60 lbs.  How high you need the pressure to be depends on how high your
    highest water outlet is and on how much pressure you feel you need. 
    Like everything else there are lots of tradeoffs.
    
    Mine was a shallow well system with the pump in the basement instead of
    in the well, so it had a thing called an aspirator on the tank which
    automatically kept the air level about half tank.  It had a feedback
    line to the pump.  I don't know if you can get such a thing for an
    in-the-well pump setup or not.  At 20-40 lbs (average 30), the tank
    would be half full of water (on average) if I just drained it and then
    allowed the pump to fill it until the pressure cut it off.  I didn't
    have to pump any additional air into it.  If you have higher pressures
    then you will have less average air in the tank, but the drain and fill
    method still ought to work OK with no additional air pumping.
    
    You probably wouldn't want to go over 60 lbs of water pressure, if the
    switch adjustment will even let you.  That could cause frequent valve
    failure and exploding garden hoses.
    
    By the way, the anti siphon valves are required by law in many places
    now for safety.  There have in the past been instances where ground
    water contaminated with toxic or bacteriological substances got sucked
    back into water systems during water pressure outages.  There have been
    whole communities poisoned in this way, although since you have a well,
    I suppose only your household would be at risk.
    

    I have been experiencing a strange phenomenon with the water pressure
    in my house.  I have noticed water on the basement floor immediately
    below the overflow tube which is situated vertically along the side
    of our gas water heater.  In addition, I have noticed that the water
    pressure at the faucets is momentarily higher than normal when the
    water is first turned on.  This momentary pressure surge occurs
    with either hot or cold water selected.  The pressure drops to normal
    after a few seconds of running the water.  Also, this momentary
    high pressure is not always observed when the water faucets are
    used.  My neighbor says he has not experienced this in his house.
    There appears to be be two pressure regulators on our water supply.
    
    |            |
    house        sprinkler
    supply       supply
    |            |
    |            |
    |            |
    O Reg.       |
    |            |
    +------------|
    |
    |
    ----M-------O--------> to street
        meter   Reg.
    
    Any ideas why this is happening to our water pressure?
    
    	Randy Marks
    

    	In any pressurized fluid system, you have two types of pressure:
    static and dynamic.  Static pressure is what you get with no flow,
    that is, no pressure losses from passage thru turns, valves, etc.
    Dynamic pressure is what you get when the static pressure is reduced
    (depending on flow velocity thru losses) by the dynamic losses.
    	When you turn the tap on, you initially recieve the full static
    pressure. It quickly drops to the dynamic pressure value because
    of the water movement in the pipes thru the losses.  - Chris

    How is the temperature of the hot water?  Check the thermostat on
    the hot water tank.  Sounds like the pressure relief valve is opening
    on the water tank and running onto the basement floor because of
    an overheating condition.  This could account for the overall pressure
    increase.
    
    If that isn't it, the pressure regulator valve located at or near
    where the water pipe enters the house is adjustable.  I forget which
    way to turn the screw on it but one way or the other, you can reduce
    water pressure to the whole house this way if need be.
    
    
    jack

    The hot water temperature agrees with the setting on the thermostat.
     We keep the temp. fairly low, as a matter of fact.  The problem
    with adjusting the pressure regulator is that will affect the
    "steady-state" pressure of the water, which is just fine.  What
    I want to do is eliminate the pressure surge which occurs when a
    faucet is initially turned on.
    
    re: .1
    I understand that there is a distinction between static and dynamic
    pressure.  Basically what I am saying is that my dynamic pressure
    is just fine.  The static pressure is too high.  In every other
    house, apartment, hotel or motel I have lived in, the static pressure
    did not exceed the dynamic pressure.  What is causing the high static
    pressure?

Randy,

Try backing out the screw a few turns on the second pressure
regulator that's on the leg feeding your house supply. If you're
in the NE area, there's a few new water tanks that has been put
on line and that may be the increase in your pressure.

I have a water pressure gauge you may borrow. Call me at DTN
526-2219. I am in KDT, just north of CXN.

cal hoe

    Check out the regulator - will it allow water to flow backward?  
    Some do and some don't.  If it is the type that does not allow backward
    flow then here's your problem:
    
    After you use a bunch of hot water, the hot water tank will heat up the
    new cold water that has come into it.  As this water heats up it
    expands.  In a water system with no regulator the expansion would
    simply push water back out the inlet pipes toward the street.  However,
    if water can't get back out the regulator, and if all the water taps
    are closed, and if there is no expansion tank anywhere in the system,
    then the only place the water can go is out the pressure relief valve.
    
    I understand that some regulators don't allow back flow.  Systems with
    those types of regulators need an expansion tank to absorb the
    increased volume from water heater expansion.
    
    If you already have an expansion tank, then check it to make sure it is
    full of air.  Sometimes they can lose their air for one reason or
    another and they need to be refilled or replaced, depending on the
    problem.  When the water expands it compresses the air in the tank, and
    when a valve is open the air expands back to its original volume to
    balance the water pressure in the system.

    .5's got it. The only problem is that an expansion tank *always*
    will allow a pressure build-up to occur if it is not calibrated
    to the exact conditions at your house. The expansion tank has to
    be initially charged to a pressure *greater than* the top working
    pressure of the system, else it will partially fill every time you
    shut the water off at some point of use. As you turn on water, this
    release of pressure from the expansion tank will coincide with water
    pressure coming into the house and provide additional pressure until
    the tank empties. One problem I can see here is that if the pressure
    regulator valve has a slow leak through it, pressure will steadily
    increase into your potable water system *until* the pressure is
    *equal to* the street pressure. When you start to run water, this
    high pressure will bleed off and then the pressure regulator valve
    will begin to function as per normal. In this case, the valve is
    OK in normal function, but defective in terms of stopping water
    flow 100% when there is no usage. The valve could be leaking slowly
    in the direction of hi pressure to low pressure. The more I think
    about this, the less I feel there is an expansion tank problem.
    There probably isn't an expansion tank at all in this particular
    house! As far as the bad regulator valve, (reducing valve, if you
    prefer) if you're the DIY-er--type, depressurize your system, isolate
    the reducer valve, and take the screws out that dot the perimeter
    of the conical base. The valve will pop apart--be careful. You may
    want to back all of the screws out gradually. At this point, you
    will see a diaphram across the opening you have just exposed. At
    the base of this diagphram, you will witness the actual seat of
    the valve which lifts to let water pressure through to your service
    entry. This seat must be in top condition, or the above-mentioned
    leakage will occur. As with any valve, the seat has a matching surface
    wich must be just as clean as above. Kits should be available for
    reair of these valves, but if you just want it fixed, period, a
    valve replacement is in order. Price? $50 for the valve, plus labor
    if you're not up for it.
    
    Mike

My main shutoff valve for my water supply has sprung a leak (see diagram
below).  If I close the valve totally the leak stops, and the further I 
open it, the more it leaks (all the way from a slow drip to a medium trickle).

To fix this situation I assume I need to remove the whole valve assembly by 
unscrewing points A and B and put a new one in?  I'm no plumber, but this
should be a fairly easy DIY job?

Since this is the main shutoff point, and there are no other valves 
between here and my pump, how do I stop the water while I have this 
pipe apart?  If I simply cut the power to my well pump, will I still lose
all the water in the reserve tank?

Thanks for any suggestions.

              ^
              |
             into
             house 
                            leaking out of here          
             |    |        /
             |    |       /
           B |----|      /
             |    |____ / 
             |        |/   +
             |        |====+   
             |     ___|    +
             |    | 
           A |----|        ^
             |    |        | 
                           main shutoff valve
             out to 
	     well
	       |
               v

	re: leaking shutoff valve...

       The leak is caused by the gland nut (sometimes referred to as the
       packing nut) becoming dried out over the years. In fact, its
       quite common to even new valves to seep leak a little. Repair is
       effected in either of two ways: First, try taking a wrench to the
       gland nut and tightening it a little, turning the valve stem
       while you do the wrenching. Do it gently and the leak *should*
       stop. If this fails, you can rebuild the valve packing with new
       material purchased at your local hardware store's plumbing
       department. Fortunately, these valves are fairly common and the
       packing material can be had in both a washer-shaped configuration
       or in the form of a graphite impregnated cord which you form
       around the valve stem into the shape and size you need.

       You needn't buy a new valve to fix this kind of leak.

    
     This type of leak is VERY common on any valve that has a stem packing
    and isn't used much. When you finally do use it, the packing (which
    has taken a set because it hasn't been used) starts leaking. It
    is quite normal. All you need to do - is tighten the packing
    nut *slightly* - slightly being just enough to stop the leak - but
    NOT enough to make the valve hard to turn. 
    
    					Kenny

    How many gallons of water are used a day by a typical person?

	If memory serves... about a month ago Dick Albert, (ch5 weather)
	did a quicky on water conservation.  I beleive he said an average
	of 25 gallons/person/day, including several flushed, baths/showers,
	brushing teeth, meals, shaving, washing hands........  Surprising
	

    
     Sorry, but I belive Dick A. was talking about how much COULD be
    consumed by someone who was practicing water conservation. I think
    the general rule of thumb (no counting a lot of conservation) for
    water usage was 75 gals., per person, per day. Figure it out, even
    a water conserving toilet uses 2 gals per flush (3 for a normal
    one). Three gals/min is a low average for a shower (many go as high
    as 10 gallons per minute!) Washing (other than showers/baths) doesn't
    account for that much, but at an average of 5 gallons per min, a
    ten minute shower (mine are more like 20) uses 50 gallons alone!
    And if you've been working out or working around the yard you may
    very well take 2 showers or baths in one day!
    
    					Kenny

...and don't forget laundry and dishes....

Bob

    I saw a recent figure of 330 gals/day/person. I think this included
    all of the water used by industry and the like in support of you.
    
    Obviously this has nothing to do with estimating water usage in
    the home, but, I didn't know what else to do with this information
    other than post it here. 

    Just to put a different perspective on it....
    
    Imagine what it was like in the days of the wooden 
    sail-powered warships, when the usual ration of fresh
    water, per person, was one PINT per day!  (Yes, there
    was some used in cooking, etc..  PERSONAL use was a
    mere....)  With "working outdoors", eating well-salted
    food, etc., this must have been interesting to do.
    
    I understand, from my readings, that there were occasional
    "orgies" allowed - when the supply ship with the fresh
    water pulled up alongside.  First thing that happened was
    that EVERYbody drank.... then the barrels were refilled,
    then everybody drank again.... then the supply ship pulled
    away, the armed guard was posted at the water barrel(s),
    and it was back to a pint a day.  A couple of weeks later,
    the water started turning green and slimy....
    
    I can imagine that a ship stopping at an island (Pacific
    voyages took months...) with fresh water was a MAJOR
    cause for celebration.  Imagine, after weeks of short
    water rations, being able to immerse yourself in the stuff!!
    
    Sometimes I wonder how we (I) would have done in those
    situations....
    
                                  - Ed -

>    I saw a recent figure of 330 gals/day/person. I think this included
>    all of the water used by industry and the like in support of you.
 
Actually, it might not be too outrageous as an in-home figure.  Baths and
showers take a lot of water.  I've heard that a typical shower takes 100
gallons.  I laughed that off as impossible until I plugged the tub and
measured the water that collected during a shower.  It's more than half a
tub full, and if you consider a 2x5x3 bathtub = 30 cubic feet @ 7.5 gallons
per cubic foot (it sounds high, but that's what it says in the Engineer's
Desk Reference...) = 225 gallons.  Add in laundry, cooking, drinking, toilet
flushing (@5 to 7 gallons a flush) and so on and it could easily come up
to 330 if you were a bath-taker.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    
>        cause for celebration.  Imagine, after weeks of short
>    water rations, being able to immerse yourself in the stuff!!

 	I've heard that they rarely immersed themselves in those
    days, water available or not . 

re. -.?

Are you SURE it's 7.5 gal / cu ft?

I'm looking at the gal milk jug I have in my office for the plants, 
and compared to a cu ft, it doesn't look like I'd get 7 1/2 of them in 
there.

>    I'm looking at the gal milk jug I have in my office for the plants, 
>and compared to a cu ft, it doesn't look like I'd get 7 1/2 of them in 
>there.

    You're right.  It doesn't look like it.
    
    Do you know how big a 10 gallon aquarium is?  They aren't very big.
    The dimensions are only around 10"x12"x16".  That's only a little
    over a square foot and you can fit 10 of your milk jugs in.
    

I was really surprised when I first saw that 7� figure also.  But a quick look 
at a milk jug I have here in my office (ask me another time why), it seems to
be about 6"x6"x7"=252 cu in.  A cubic foot is 12"x12"x12"= 1728 cu in. 
Divided, that comes out to 6.85, and if you subtract the volume in the jug for 
the rounded corners, it comes out about right.

Paul

    It did not sound right to me, so I looked it up and he is right,
    there are 7.48052 U.S. gallons in 1 qubic foot.
    
    Amazing....
    
    Peter

I did it too, according the the 'authoritative source' I had handy.....

According to American Heritage:

1 liter = 1.057 quarts  (liquid measure)
1 liter = 61 cu in

1.057 quarts = 61 cu in

(1.057 qts) (1gal / 4 qts)  = (61 cu in) (1 cu ft / 1728 cu in)

.26425 gal = .035300925 cu ft  (eek, too many signficant digits ;^) )

7.4856 gal = 1 cu ft


It still doesn't seem correct visually using the milk jug, but using 
the aquarium example it's much more believable.

I have to laugh at the number of people who have had to work it out.  I didn't
believe it either when I first read it, which is why I mentioned that I looked
it up rather than asking anyone to take it on faith.  

The first time I read it, I had to make "a cubic foot" out of paper before
I'd believe it.  I had always had a hard time accepting that my waterbed
took 200 gallons... 200 gallons should be HUGE!  But in reality, it's not
very large at all.
					>>>==>PStJTT

     Getting back to the original question...

     We're on a small water system (33 households).  To approve a system 
     as a public water supply, the state looks for a capacity of 300
     gallons a day, assuming an average 4 person household.

     Actual monitoring of our consumption shows that on a typical weekend,
     when useage is highest, we average about 12,000 gallons per day.
     I estimate an average of about 3.5 people per house, 33 houses, so
     our weekend useage workd out to about 104 gallons/day/person.

     On a weekday, the consumption is down more in the area of 6-7,000
     gallons a day.

     Because of the drought last summer, we've curtailed most outside 
     water useage, so if you were going to wash cars, water lawns, etc,
     the consumption would be considerably higher.

     -Gary

According to a flyer included with my Boston Edison electric bill, "each of
us uses at least 60 gallons of water a day, much of which can be saved"

(Don't know how much I trust Boston Edison as an authority on this, since
last I knew, Boston Edison sells me electricity, not water.)

-Mike

    Haven't seen this in other plumbing notes so here goes.
    
    Last year I redid a bathroom in my house which included changing
    the tub and sink.  For the tub I changed the plumbing from separate
    hot and cold outlets to that needed for a mixing valve.  The sink
    plumbing stayed pretty much the same.  Now when the water is turned
    on (cold) at either the sink or tub the pipe pounds.  In the cellar
    you can see it banging back and forth.  Anyone know what causes this 
    and what the cure is?  I suppose it's air but what do I do about
    it?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    
>    (Don't know how much I trust Boston Edison as an authority on this, since
>     last I knew, Boston Edison sells me electricity, not water.)             

      ... and another managment problem surfaces at Boston Ed ...They
    don't remember what business they're in  ! 8-) 

Pardon the diversion again, but.....

...from "commonly known" facts:

       - water weighs 62.5 lbs./cubic foot
       - a gallon of water weighs about 8 lbs 
              (a pint's a pound the whole world round)

     62.5 lbs./cu ft
     --------------- = 7.8 gallon/cu ft, close to 7.5
      8 lbs./gallon

    How about if CON ED or in this case Boston Edison were counting on
    selling you 60 gallon of HOT water a day?�?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    8*) �!CONSERVE WATER SHOWER WITH A FRIEND!� 8*)  

    Hi,
        Did the old plumbing have air chambers installed near the fixtures
    for each (hot & cold)feed? Probably inside the wall space.
      
        Various fixtures shut the flow of water off quicker than others,
    so what you get is water slamming against the end of the closed
    valve, the quicker the shut-off of water the more chances of the
    pipes hammering.
    
         Most plumbers install an air chamber at the end of the water
    pipe, ususally near the area that the pipes turn through the wall
    to go to the fixture. They are Commercially available, but most
    plumbers who install them, make their own, by using a short length
    of pipe that is dead-ended with a cap. By nature of the short pipe
    being dead-ended, it will always hold some air when the pipe is
    filled, and it is this air that absorbs the hammer effect of the
    column of water.
    
          It may be possible that if you do have chambers on your plumbing
    that they somehow filled with water, sometimes the water, if left
    standing still for a length of time will absorb this air. In that
    case, all you have to do is shut off the water, drain the pipes
    completely, and refill them. The air in the pipes will go to the
    chambers, and it should be OK....No more banging.
    
         If you don't already have chambers, you might try adding some,
    even if you did not add it to the end of the pipe, but instead added
    it to the last elbow in the basement before the pipe went upstairs.
    
    
       Paul
    

    My daughter was taking a shower last night and the cold water pipe was 
    banging the whole time, really jumping around.  The vanity faucet bangs 
    when you shut the water off so the air answer sounds logical for that but 
    what about the shower?  I got rid of a lot of the noise by temporarily
    taping the cold pipe to the hot pipe next to it so that the pipe didn't 
    hit the joist and waste pipe that it is next to.  I'm concerned, though, 
    about what the constant vibration will eventually do to the joints.
    
    	As far as the air chambers you're talking about - are they similar
    to the lengths of pipe used below outlets in gas lines?  
    
    
    George

    George,
             The gas pipe configuration that mention is more commonly
    known as "Drip leg or sediment leg" It traps any Gunk that might
    be floating around in the gas pipes. The Air chambers I mentioned
    would look the same as the Sediment Leg, only they would be oriented
    in the other direction, so that they would trap air.
    
        Do you happen to know what your water pressure is in PSI?
         
        Are you on city water or on a well?
    
    Paul

    SET HAT=acting_as_a_moderator    

    Before this note gets too many more replies...

    This topic has been discussed at length in notes 956,1907,2162,2424.
    Found these by looking at note 1111.80 PLUMBING-SUPPLY.
    
    SET HAT=normal_noter

Shame on you George! :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) 

The rest of you sure are fast, 4 replies before I could get here.

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
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We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
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Paul [Moderator]

re .6
  
>>    Imagine what it was like in the days of the wooden 
>>    sail-powered warships, when the usual ration of fresh
>>    water, per person, was one PINT per day!  (Yes, there
>>    was some used in cooking, etc..  PERSONAL use was a
>>    mere....)  With "working outdoors", eating well-salted
>>    food, etc., this must have been interesting to do.

	So that's why they had drool buckets! A water reclaimation system!!!

	Too bad they didn't have Aridus still suits :-)

   

    re:15
    
    	What benifit (if any) is there in being a public water supply?
    At 300 gallons a day, my well (as most wells) would qualify. 300
    gallons a day is nothing.
    
    	With a recovery rate of a mere � gallon a minute, you could
    recover 720 gallons a day. I know of wells that have 7-10 gallon/min.
    recovery rates. The only catch 22 is that you have to have enough 
    distance between your static leval (the maximum height of the water 
    in the well) and where your pump is to be able to store that much
    water. A rough estimate is that each foot of 9" pipe holds approx. 
    1� gallons. If your pump was only 100 ft. below the static leval, 
    you can only recover up to 150 gallons.
    
    	This difference between my static leval and my pump is 500
    feet so I should have enough water for awhile :-)
    

    	Ray

Re: -.1    
    	What benifit (if any) is there in being a public water supply?
    At 300 gallons a day, my well (as most wells) would qualify. 300
    gallons a day is nothing.
    
No benefit.  It's just the way the development we live in was set up.
Our wells (2 producing, 6 dry holes), run about 900 feet, so it was
cost effective(for the developer) to set up a shared system.

We have a 10,000 gallon reservoir that's usually sufficient, but with 
last summer's drought, we couldn't quite fill in a day, hence the
problem when our useage ran up to 12,000 gallons a day on the weekend.

-gary

    	As a member of the U.S. Peace Corps I lived in a small village
    in India and my partner and I never had more than ten gallons of
    water a day between us.  The ten gallons of water served our house
    cleaning, personal hygeine and cooking needs.  Yes, we managed quite
    well once we learned how to conserve.  It was quite easy, really.
    
    Douglas

Our well had a recovery rate of 42 gal/min. when they stopped measuring! I've
often wondered if one of the Quabbin Reservoir pipelines goes through my
back yard. :-)

    Home water treatment companies use 75 gals/person/day as the
    basis for system installation.  This is right in line with
    the perviously mentioned 330 gals/day for a family of four.
    
    pbm
    

just got a bill.  adds up to 75 gal per person per day.  there's only two 
of us.  we're gonna' try to cut down.  i think it's mostly the shower and 
toilets.

craig

    I have a problem with my main shut off valve.  It will not shut
    off the water supply to my house.  It probably needs a new washer.
     In order to work on it I will have to shut off the water supply
    at the curb (City Water).  I bought a curb key.  Now here is my
    problem.  I can't shut off the water.  The valve will not turn.
    I am reluctant to apply too much pressure as I don't want to break
    it.  Is there anything I can do, short of digging down to the valve
    and trying to free it.  
    
    Thanks ... Jim

    
    
    Which side of the meter is the main shutoff on?  If it's before
    the meter, then the water company (Town?) should owns it.  Have them
    come out and fix it, it'll save you a lot of aggrevation. 
    
    I had a similar problem, except my shutoff was stuck in the off
    position (I turned it off to do some minor (HA) repairs). 
    It turns out that the shaft of the valve snapped.  I called the
    town, and they had there plumbers out there that day.   
    
    Good luck
    
    /Jeff

    In Hudson,  MA,  according to the DPW, I own everything inside the
    house,  but only the town can work upstream of the water meter. So
    they replaced the valve, and said it would cost $30. I haven't yet
    seen the bill (they did the work last Friday.) They were very good
    about  coming  out  on  short  notice,  despite  the fact that the
    problem wasn't an emergency (or even serious.)

--David

    Correct about Hudson, MA. I had mine replaced in the house because I
    couldn't turn the incoming water off completely. They came out promptly
    and replaced it. I think it cost around 31.75  

    We just had that fiasco happen to us last year (2 weeks before xmas).
     
    WE had just purchased the house in june and hadn't been there 6
    months when one night the water main blew the valve/meter right
    off the wall in the celler, luckly we were home. The celler had
    5 inches of water in less than 15 minutes. WE had the fire dept
    there (9:30 pm) but they couldn't shut off the water because they
    didn't have the key for the valve from the road to the house, and
    the key they had was for rest of the street and they certainly 
    wern't going to shut down the whole street (West St. Leominster) 
    because the hydrants were on the same valve. they tried to sledge
    hammer in a couple of different size chalks but the pressure was
    to high (was told later that our St had the highest water pressure in
    town).
    
    Meanwhile we now had close to a foot of water and the previous owner
    had cemented over the trap.  To top all this off the water dept
    had the only key to the valve (which by the way is covered with
    tar) and there all out at their christmas banquet. 2 hours later
    they show up in suit and tie, and hammer in a 2 ft length of what
    appeared to be a broom handle. They would be back to fix the rest
    later.
                                 
    This finally stopped the water, which the fire dept had diverted
    through a 1 1/2" hose which had to be hand held out to the street.
    (try holding onto a loose fitting hose under 90+ psi with freezing
    cold water squirting out all over for 2 1/2 hours)
      
    The Water dept came back at 2 in the am to finally shut the water
    off at the road.  They first had to jack hammer the road to get
    to the valve. shut it off.... and proceeded into the cellerwhich
    now only had 6-10" of water to pull out the broom handle (ya sure)
    and attach the new valve.
    
    The guy broke the handle off, and using my recipro saw, and 1/2"
    demolition drill with a 16" bit proceeded to ream out the wood stuck
    in the main.
    
    (this next thing kinda didn't make sense to me)
    He attached the new 90 degree valve, then blew out the crap in the
    pipe. 
    (i thought you'd want to blow out the crud wood before ataching
    the elbow vlave) he hooks up the meter, turns on the water and says
    if its leaking call him and they'll check it out in the morning. Now
    I got all this sh*t floating around in my water. next morning i
    get up and the celler has another 3 inches of water in it, turns
    out they punctured the main before the foundation. now they attach
    a hose from the neighbors house to mine with the temperature hovering
    close to 0... twice the hose froze, we were on the hose for a 10
    days.
    
    Next day I get a nifty little form letter saying "we have inpected
    the water problem at your address, you are responsible for for all
    costs incurred to repair/replace anything from the road to the house".
    And oh, btw, you have 30 days to make any such repairs, here is
    list of contractors....
          
    Got quotes from anywhere between $1500-$2700
    
    all this just 2 weeks before christmas.... oh the joys of home
    ownership!
    
    Fra

    Sorry about not getting back to this note sooner.  I think .5 and/or .6
    are the answers I was looking for.  Since I posted this note, I placed
    a coffee can under the overflow tube and one under the drain spiggot. 
    I did this last night (should have thought of it much earlier), so
    results are a bit preliminary.  It appears that the water on the floor
    is not actually coming from the overflow tube - it is coming from the
    drain spiggot.  I think the remedy there is to buy a threaded cap and
    install it on the spiggot which is apparently leaky.  So the water on
    the floor is not related to the pressure fluctuation I described in .0.
    
    I haven't adjusted the pressure regulator because I didn't really think
    that was the problem.  Adjusting it would probably change the normal
    pressure but not affect the fluctuation.  There is no expansion tank
    that I can see.  The regulator not allowing backflow as .5 mentioned
    may be a possibility.  I guess only a discussion with a plumbing supply
    outfit will answer that question.  If it does allow backflow, then a
    valve problem as mentioned in .6 is to be suspected.
    
    Looks like I have some work to do.  I'll reply with a summary of what I
    find.  Thanks for all the suggestions and helpful info.
    
    	Randy

    After reading all these replys, I think I could have the same
    problem as Re.0, but I have city water, every once in a while
    the water will start to pulse, with all the faucets shut off
    I can hear a loud "tick-tock" sound echoing thru the pipes, it
    will do this for a minute or so and then stop, if I go into the
    basement and slowly turn off the main water supply shut off, it
    will stop and shutting it off slowly I can hear the water pulsing
    thru the lines. Now if it make a difference, I too have one of these
    expansion tanks with a schrader (sp?) valve hanging off of one of
    the pipes.
    
    Should I check the pressure in the tank, what is a good pressure,
    I really wasn't going to bother with it as I'll be doing alot
    of plumbing changes when I put a 2nd floor on my house at the
    end of February...
    
    
    thanks
    
    Royce

       I did a directory search and also checked out the index at 1111 but
    found nothing on my problem.
       I just received my water bill from the city of Worcester for $320.00
    They say I used 147,000 cu./ft. of water for a 6 month
    period.Calculated out this equals over 1,099,633.5 gal. for the 6
    months or 6,042 gals.a day.
       I contacted the water company and the head of the water company with
    no satisfation at all.Both responses were that I used this much water
    and that there is nothing wrong with my meter.I do plan on contesting
    this bill. What I would like to know is if anybody has had any
    problems with there meters going bad resulting in high bills.Has anyone
    contested a high water bill with any luck??
       Any help with this would be greatly appreciated..
     
               Thanks
    
                       Rich

	Boy do you use water! Can I bring over my car to be washed?

	I have heard of another problem like this from a friend who got a
wopper of an electric bill. In his case the utilities misread the meter.
I think he won his case by proving that he couldn't have drawn that much
current by calculating out his max amp service for the month and it was off by
more than 10,000 KW. from his bill. This proved to the utility that his meter
should be looked into and was determined that the meter was read wrong.

	First is the readings correct to the meter readings?

	If you turn on a faucet does the meter spin wildly?

	If you could prove either one of those things it should at least
prompt the utility to check the meter out. If it proven defective, then you
should be only paying for the correct reading or if the meter is bad an
average water use for your size family.

			Bill

     It looks like I figured it out wrong.It sould be 14,700 cu./ft which
       would equal out to over 600 gals a day.Which is still extremly high
       for a family of 3. Again,help would be appreciated..Rich

Another thing to check:

With all your faucets turned off, how much water do you use?
Check the meter before everyone leaves the house, and check it again before
using the water when someone returns.  Perhaps there is a leak in your system,
like, in an outside, underground pipe?

Also, check when the water company last read your meter.  Perhaps they have been
(under)estimating the bill for a while, and finally got a real reading?

    
    re .3
    If there's a leak in the guys system outside then it's before the
    meter so it wouldn't register.
    
    I own a 2 family and there are 4 people living in it and we don't
    use anything close to 600 gallons a day. Something is definetly
    wrong. My bill is less then $200 a year.
    
    Mike

- Check your current meter reading with what's on the bill, a simple 
  error in reading your meter could cause a huge discrepancy in your 
  "calculated" usage.

- Has the water dept. been estimating your bill for the prior reading
  periods? If they've been estimating low, and finally get a chance to
  get the "real" reading, you could be making up the difference for the
  low estimates. 

- Measure your "typical" usage for a day or a week and compare this to 
  what the bill shows. 

- Has your usage REALLY gone up, or did the cost of the water go up?

- OR, could the following situation apply? It REALLY DOES for my 
  sister, in the fair city of Worcester Mass. What a coincidence!

My sister bought a 2 family in Worcester last year. My brother and I
were in the cellar, checking it out, and we started to trace the
plumbing lines and this is what we find. The water main enters near
the front of the house, goes thru the water meter and then runs to the
back of the house were all of the kitchens/baths are located. At the
back of the house, there's this water pipe that runs from the ceiling,
down the wall, thru a shut off valve, and goes out thru the foundation
wall about 1 foot above the floor. 

"Hey, whats this for?", "Hmmm, must be the shut off for an outside 
faucet." "It can't be, it goes thru the wall about 4 feet under 
ground". We play with valve for a bit and then shut it off.

Next day, one of the college students living in the 3 FAMILY next door
asks my sister if she has been having any problems with her water too,
THEIR water has been OFF SINCE YESTERDAY! 

GUESS where that mysterious water pipe went!!! My sister's water meter
was supplying her TWO units plus the THREE units next door. 

FYI... how this came to be as far as we can figure... Orginally there
was her house, on a street corner, later the owners built a 3 family
house behind their house with frontage on the side street. When
building, they simply ran the water line from their house to the new
house. Years later, the two houses and lots were sub-divided and sold
seperately. The water meter situation still exists today, but the
landlord of the three family has agreed to pay 3/5s of my sister's
water bill until they get a new water line and meter installed.

A new line and meter sounds easy, right? Well according to the
Worcester water department, they CLAIM that the water main on the side
street where the 3 family is doesn't come up that far, which is why
they probably feed it from the house next door. The Worcester water
dept. WILL NOT install a second meter on the line that goes to the 3
family and subtract that reading from my sisters reading. The landlord 
of the 3 family is still looking for a permanent solution. 

Charly

I'd get all my facts together and call my alderman.

    A friend of mine a couple years ago had the same problem (different
    town).  Believe it or not ... the water company was right !  The reason
    they were right is...  He was on a 'slab' and his hot water heating
    system ran thru the concrete floor.  He found a spot in the concrete 
    (under the rug) that the pipe had broken!  The water was running out of
    the pipe and into the ground (causing a puddle in his front yard that
    could now be explained...).
    
    His floor had to be jack-hammered up ... pipe replaced ... and .,...
    no more high water bill (or oil bill since the furnance kept running
    too).
    
    Bob O.
    

   
  > If there's a leak in the guys system outside then it's before the
  >  meter so it wouldn't register.
  
Not true.  Many homes have sprinkler systems built into the ground, or faucets
out in or behind a detached garage.  Just because a pipe is outside does not
make it unmetered.

    As was said earlier, the easiest way to check for leaks is to shut off
    any running water for an hour or so and then check the meter. If it
    went up, you've probably got a leak (or other water user) elsewhere in
    the system.
    
    Eric

    
      In the dead of silence, you should be able to hear the water running
    thru the meter with verything turned off.
    
    

    Thanks to Mr Levy and the MWRA, my water/sewer bill now runs $225-250 
    per year. Billed quarterly. Single family house with two adults and two
    children. When I first purchased my house , 1979 no kids, I think the
    water/sewer bill was about $80-100 per year.  
    
    My neighbor once received a water bill of about $500-600. He refused to
    pay. After checking that his meter was working correctly, the town,
    after about a year of arguing, then advertised his house for auction 
    for non payment. Guess who won.
    
    Steve Ridge

>    Thanks to Mr Levy and the MWRA, my water/sewer bill now runs $225-250 
>    per year. Billed quarterly. Single family house with two adults and two
>    children. When I first purchased my house , 1979 no kids, I think the
>    water/sewer bill was about $80-100 per year.  
    
     If there is a negative implication of the 'thanks to ...', may I ask 
why?  Your water bill has only gone up at an annualized rate of 10%/year, 
and you've doubled the number of people in your household!  If you tried 
to compare apples to apples, instead of to oranges, you might estimate 
your water bill for two to be about $150/year -- an annualized rate of 
increase of 5.8%.  What are you copmplaining about?

re                      <<< Note 3754.11 by GIAMEM::RIDGE >>>
>    after about a year of arguing, then advertised his house for auction 
>    for non payment. Guess who won.
    
        So, the city auctioned off the house and booted him out?

A few water factoids:

My family (6) uses about 50,000 gallons of water per year (I think this is
outrageously high).

MWRA water rates are projected to go up N *100% over the next 10 years
(Anybody remember what N is?)

If you're interested in metering some segment of your system, (or verifying
your main meter) water meters can be had for approx $50-$60.  TI sales in
Maynard is one source ...

    

    re .12  Kevin,
    	    I should have added that the MWRA is projecting increases
    	    in water rates in multiples of 100% over the next 10 years.
    	    If I really wanted to compare apples to apples I would need 
    	    to compare cost per gallon not the number of people. Since 
    	    I agree that "Water is still dirt cheap" I do not feel the
    	    gain from doing the reasearch is worth the effort. 
    
    re .13  No, he paid the bill the day before the scheduled auction. 

      
       get your last couple of water bills and if it shows a quite bit of
    difference in water then bring it to worcester....
    
    Mike
    

    If you live within the confines of the MWRA (Mass water Resources
    Auth.) expect you water bill to exceed your property taxes. The folks
    in this area will be helping to foot the bill of the Boston Harbor
    cleanup. A politician is in the process of introducing leglislation to
    let the folks who incur theese bills write them off (cause Bush pulled
    the $$$$$$ for the cleanup, presumably, to slap Dukakis in the eyebrows)
    According to Jerry Williams, the water bills are expexted to
    quadruple..
                                   -bd-

>I should have added that the MWRA is projecting increases in water rates in
>multiples of 100% over the next 10 years.

     So now want to compare past rate of increase to future rate! (;-)

     Anyway, a 100% increase in 10 years is only 7.2%/year and 200% 
increase in 10 years is 11.6%.  

     Increases of this amount or even more will drive water conservation
far more effectively than commercials on TV advertizing free water
restrictors.

	For those who do a lot of lawn watering and car washing you might want
	to check into getting a 2nd meter put on for those outside faucets
	so you don't get charged for sewage rates for water that goes into 
	the ground. They can also put temporary meters on if your filling
	a new inground pool.


	As far as estimates go. Keep a check on which bills are estimates
	and which are real. In my town they're suppose to do 2 actuals and
	2 estimates a year. Well  last month I got my 4th estimated bill
	in a row and 1 day later the water dept. sends a letter saying my
	meter was not registering. Turns out I had a broken wire from
	meter inside to indicator outside. They replaced the works anyways.
	Now with a new meter I wonder how they'll adjust my bill to reflect
	what I actually used. As near as I can tell They were bassing the 
	estimates on my last actual reading which was 2 summers ago when
	I put in a new lawn.


					...Dave

re .19:

    I can understand that the water used when watering your lawn or washing
    your car won't go into the sewer system, but don't you drain your
    swimming pool into the sewer?  I confess that I don't know anything
    about swimming pools -- I use next unseen for swimming pool notes.

    I have a question. I recently moved from the third floor to the first.
    My water pressure was better on the third than the first. Why is this??
    I thought it would be the other way around. What could I do to improve,
    my water pressure. It feels like I am taking a shower by a sprinkler!! 
    
    
                            please send some good news.
    Thanks in advance.
    

Have you removed the shower head to see if there is a flow reducer?
I regulary take them out of the shower heads in hotels so I can take a real
shower. BTW- I put it back before I check out....

-j

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
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everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
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note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    I am having a water pressure/flow rate to the second floor fixtures,
    shower, sink,  toilet, etc when the clothswasher, or dishwasher is running
    on the first floor.
    
    The water is from a well supply that maintains pressure from 30 to 50
    psi. The water is filtered, goes to a 3/4" master feed line, then to 1/2"
    feeds to individual fixtures or appliances. Sinks and toilets are fed
    via 3/8" supply lines.
    
    I am considering putting flow reducers on the washers so that more
    water would be available to the second floor ... anybody got ideas ? I was
    thinking of reducing the 1/2 " supply pipes to 3/8"  as a means of
    reducing flow. 
                          
    
    
     

    At the request of the author, I have un-write locked this note. Feel
    free to offer suggestions about how to equalize the pressure between
    different locations in the same building.   I have updated the title to
    reflect this more narrowed topic of discussion.
    
    Bruce [moderator]

     Residents of Billerica, Ma.  BEWARE!!  The town is in the process of 
changing to new water meters.  They changed mine and I got hit with a bill
for $460.00.  That's 10 times larger than a normal bill.  They said it's from
the actual reading taken from the meter at the time of the switch.  Well,
let me tell you.  This just can't be right.  I called and spoke to a woman
at the water department.

Me:  This is way too high.  Something has to be wrong.  It can't be right.
Her: Well, that was taken from a actual reading when they removed the meter.
Me:  In the last town I lived in, I paid water AND sewage which totaled out
to be a 50% higher rate than here, and it took 2 1/2 years to total over 
$400.oo in bills.
Her: Well, how many are in the house?
Me: 5
Her: Well, 5 people use a lot of water.
Me: There were 5 in the last house too.
PAUSE
Me: What about the last actual reading on my meeting?
She check
Her: There haven't been any.
Me: WHAT!!  I've been here for 2 years and nobody has ever read the meter?
Her: No.  They've all been estimates.
Me: What can you possibly be basing your estimates on?
Her: Maybe from the people that lived there before you.
Me: I BUILT THIS HOUSE!!  Nobody lived here before me.  The house didn't exist
before me.
PAUSE
Her: Well, you can come in and look at the meter yourself if you'd like.
By now I'm totally frustrated and have to come up with a strategy, so I said
I would later in the week.

On my way home last night, I remembered something the guy that changed the meter
said to me.  He said "The reading on your meter doesn't match what's on the
remote box, so I made a note of it on the slip."  I called the water department
today and told them I'd like to see that slip.  I have to call them back
tomorrow.  

My neighbor that works for the town said that people are getting hit with 
bills as high as .....are you sitting......$2,000.00.  How many YEARS have
these houses gone without actual readings!!  One other point: If they always
estimate, then why are we (town taxpayers) paying over 2 million dollars for
the meter swap if they never come to read them anyway??

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chris D.

    It sounds like (from the reference to a 'remote box') that you have a
    meter inside and a box on the outside of your house that the meter
    reader person reads.  Either the meter was not set to zero when they
    put it in, the gears (or whatever) have been slipping and the outside
    box wasn't reading properly, or something like that.
    
    What's reasonable:
    
    	1)	Water and sewage is $46 per month.
    	2)	Water and sewage is $65 per month, but you've only been
    		paying $45 and now the difference has caught up with you.
    
    I dunno water/sewage myself, but I have learned it's useful to read
    ones (electric) meter occasionally to make sure the utility is 'sane'.
    On the other hand, maybe they are replacing the meters because the
    'remote boxes' don't read right and the town is losing revenue....
    
    Willie

>>    It sounds like (from the reference to a 'remote box') that you have a
>>    meter inside and a box on the outside of your house that the meter
>>    reader person reads.  
    
      Yes that's right.  Sorry I didn't make that clear.  The meter is
    inside, a remote box that the meter reader reads is outside the house.
    
    
>>    Either the meter was not set to zero when they
>>    put it in, the gears (or whatever) have been slipping and the outside
>>    box wasn't reading properly, or something like that.
    
      I agree.  Try telling them that!!    
    
    
>>    	2)	Water and sewage is $65 per month, but you've only been
>>    		paying $45 and now the difference has caught up with you.
    
     I only have water.  In the old house I had water and sewage.  I could
    understand a few bucks difference, but not $460!!  If you add that to
    what I did pay in the last 2 years, it totals over $650.00!!  In 2
    years!!??  Give me a break!
    
>>    On the other hand, maybe they are replacing the meters because the
>>    'remote boxes' don't read right and the town is losing revenue....
    
     They are changing meters and remote boxes because the new set up
    doesn't have to be manually read at all.  A meter reader comes to the
    house with some kind of device that "plugs in" to the remote box and
    instantly reads the meter and stores it in memory.  I guess at the end
    of the day everything is "dumped" into a computer.  But, like I said,
    why waste the money if they only estimate anyway!!!
    
     Chris D.

    I had  a similar chat with my town (Hudson, MA) water people. They
    had  been  estimating  my  bills for a year and a half because the
    meter  didn't  work,  and  they hadn't told me. They didn't try to
    bill me for the prior period though.

    As for  what's  reasonable,  we  pay about $300/year for water and
    sewer, and are reasonbaly careful about our water use.

--David

    
    Re .0:
    
    Offer to pay the excess amount of you bill in installments, spread over
    the same period as they failed to read your meter and thus encouraged
    you to build up such a debt.
    

    re: .4  I like it!!!
    
    Chris D.

    
    
    
    	I never realized it was that expensive......
    
    	Makes me see my well in a new light even though it needed
    	a filtering system....
    
    
    						Mike
    						----

    RE: .0
    
    	You mean your wern't running a car wash in your back yard either??
    :>) :>)
    	I've lived in Billerica approx. 10 years and have only seen the
    meter reader once!  I've contested every bill and had all reduced and
    hence was the only one in the neighborhood who did NOT recieve an
    outrageous bill after installing the new meter. My bills were so over
    inflated that the town would have owed me money.  I couldn't believe
    that everyone elses were underestimated!
     	With the new meters, they are "suppossed" to be read every billing
    period as no one has to be home for them to be read.  I will believe
    that when I see it so until I'm convinced, I'll run every bill down to
    the meter as soon as I recieve it and check.
    
    			Paul
    
    
    they are 'suppossed' to be read every billing period as one does not
    have to be home.  I'll believe it when I see it.

  Are these the new meters which can be read by radio from a car in the
  street? If so, they probably will read them more frequently.

    Well we have both water and sewer with two living in a house.  Our bill
    runs around $10-$15 a month total.  That's in surburan Atlanta.  $460
    for 3 years over what you have already paid seems completely outragous!
    
    I know that our meter has been checked because I have seen the readers
    and they have left the cover off several times after I have replaced
    it.
    
    The gas company put little radio units on the meters about a year or
    two ago.  Now they just drive by and read the meter.  No more walking
    thru the weather getting chased by dogs and stung by insects. 
    Technology to the rescue.
    
    

  In Gardner, MA, they send out little cards, asking the homeowner to
  read the meter, write the reading on the card, and mail it back (postage
  paid by the city no less).

  The city doesn't have to send people out, and you get to read your own 
  meter, eliminating any question about a wrong reading being billed.

  It's low-tech, too.

  Steve

  Last year, Water/Sewer combined ran about $330.00 for a 2 family, with 7 
  people living in the house.    It's going up every year, Water is getting 
  to be an expensive utility.
    

    re:.8
    
    	To read the meters, a person must insert a plastic card (much like
    a credit card) which takes the readings.
    
    RE: postage paid cards
    
    	Billerica had the same system in which the meter reader left the
    card at your house if no one was home.  They also had a system that
    the home owner would call in the readings 3 times a year.  The numbers
    that I put on the cards or called in, NEVER appeared on the bills.  No
    one could explain why to me either.  I WILL continue to check all of
    my bills.
    				Paul

>>    	Billerica had the same system in which the meter reader left the
>>    card at your house if no one was home.  They also had a system that
>>    the home owner would call in the readings 3 times a year.  
    
    I've never received a card.  Also, I've always had a remote box
    outside, so nobody had to be home.  I don't have a dog to frighten him
    away, I've always kept a path shoveled in the winter (I see that was a
    waste of time).
    
>>    The numbers
>>    that I put on the cards or called in, NEVER appeared on the bills.  No
>>    one could explain why to me either.  I WILL continue to check all of
>>    my bills.
  
    Could this be the old "More than one street with the same name"
    problem?  YOu may be getting the other person's bill.  They are well
    known for doing that.  My neighbor has been trying to straighten them
    out for 2 years now, with no success.
    
    I talked to the water department yesterday.  I had them dig up the
    paper that I signed when the new meter was installed because I
    remembered the installer saying something about a discrepency between
    the meter and the reomte box when he removed them.  Sure enough, the
    meter said I've used a total of 42331 cubic feet and the box said
    37950.  When I said the box sounds a little better, they naturally said
    that the meter gives a more accurate reading.  Of course, that's what I
    expected to hear.  I told here there's no way I can pay in the 30 days
    allowed.  She said to call the Selectmans office.  These people were
    very nice.  She gave me a name of someone to write a letter to,
    explaining the situation, and voice my complaints.  The selectman's
    office will review these and decide what to do.  The women I spoke with
    said they've had MANY complaints.  When I asked "Well, what could come
    of the selectman's office reviewing them", she said that they may
    contact each person to work out a payment plan, or maybe come up with
    some type of universal payment plan, or, are you ready for this, the
    town may swallow the bills!!!  So, if you know anyone in Billerica that
    has this problem, have them write to Evelyn Haines at the selectman's
    office in the town hall.  The more the merrier!!
    
    Chris D.

    The correct place to send to, for those interested, is:
    
    Evelyn Haines
    Assistant Town Administrator
    Billerica Town Hall
    365 Boston Rd.
    Billerica, Ma.

    Holly cow!! This get's worse by the day.  Listen to the first 3
    paragraphs from tonight's paper regarding the water bills.
    
    Quoted from the Lowell Sun:
    
    BILLERICA - Residents unable to pay the close-out bill on their old
    water meter because of financial hardship may be able to makeartial
    payments under a formal agreement with the town, officials said this
    week.
         Town Administrator Paul Talbot said he may offer a payment plan to
    water customers who received unusually high water bills when the Water
    Department closed out accounts on old water meters.
    {Here comes the good part}
         A 14 percent INTEREST CHARGE will be applied to the unpaid
    balance.
    
    
    INTEREST CHARGE!!! I say F*** YOU!!!!
    If they insist on this, I'll do everything I can to fight it, maybe
    even get citizens together under a class action suit.
    
    THis is really p*ssing me off!!
    Chris D.

    
    hmmm.
    guess i'll have to pay more attention to my water bills.
    I too live in Billerica, and have noticed the price going 
    up, but not in the $$$ amounts mentioned here.  (more like
    from $60 for 3 months to $90 for 3 months...)....
    
    so, looks like i'll have to pay closer attention!!  
    
    However, I did used to get cards which I sent in, but honestly
    I never checked the next bill to see how close they were!  
    silly me!!  :-(  :-(
    
    if i get the kind of bills you fellows have gotten, you can
    be sure ms. haines will be getting a complaint from me too!!
    
    debbie
    

>    BILLERICA - Residents unable to pay the close-out bill on their old
>    water meter because of financial hardship may be able to makeartial
>    payments under a formal agreement with the town, officials said this
>    week.
>         Town Administrator Paul Talbot said he may offer a payment plan to
>    water customers who received unusually high water bills when the Water
>    Department closed out accounts on old water meters.
>    {Here comes the good part}
>         A 14 percent INTEREST CHARGE will be applied to the unpaid
>    balance.
>    
>    
>    INTEREST CHARGE!!! I say F*** YOU!!!!
>    If they insist on this, I'll do everything I can to fight it, maybe
>    even get citizens together under a class action suit.
    
     I really don't think you need to do anything so drastic.  There is a 
consumer law that says that if at the end of X months, a utility has 
undercharged you, you have another X months to get your outstanding 
balance down to zero.  Once the electric company took over a year to find 
out who to send the bill to for an income property I had bought.  I had a 
year to pay off the balance.  Maybe somebody else knws exactly what the
law is.  Also, I don't know whether the utilty can charge interest. 
[Boston Edison didn't.]

     On the other hand, if you really owe the utility money, you have 
effectively been collecting interest from them on the unpaid balance, so 
to be fair, you should pay them back interest on your outstanding 
balance.  So maybe you shouldn't complain about interest charges.

     After all, you live in the town, and are going to pay whatever amount 
of money the town needs, one way or another.  Suing them is just going to 
raise the town's costs, which will be passed on to you.

>>  Suing them is just going to 
>>  raise the town's costs, which will be passed on to you.
    
     I wouldn't intend on suing for money.  I would sue to stop the
    interest charge.
     I just called the selectman's office to find out about tonight's
    meeting agenda and there is NOTHING on it about the water bills or
    meters.  I thought that would be in there somewhere!!??
    
    Chris D.

    For you folks in Billerica who are getting the huge bills. The first
    question that comes to mind is how long did you own the property, and
    did you "zero" the water account at the purchase and sale ? In other
    words the innacurate estimates may be culminative from 10 years, and 
    you have only owned the property for 3 yrs. When we purchased our
    property, $$ was left in an account to pay the portion of the water
    bill owed by the previous owner. Our billing is quarterly, and based
    on homeowners reading the meter.
    
    FYI, properties in the MWRA districts (Boston), have water and sewer
    bills which are supposed to exceed their property taxes in the near
    future.  

    I thought the general practice was to have the water, elec, and fuel
    tank measured or read on the closing day to avoid just this.
    
    Chris is angry not because the charges accrued over X years, but
    because the town started his new meter at 0, instead of what ever
    random number happened to be on it.  This is the number written on the
    slip by the installer of the new meter.  
    
    HE NEVER GOT TO USE THE WATER HE WAS BILLED FOR!
    
    Did I get this right, Chris?
    
    Carl

    I can tell you why it's costing so much money - because they are
    spending alot of time trying to install meters on houses that have
    private wells.  Approximately once a week for the last couple months 
    somebody has called to make an appointment to install a new water 
    meter in our house.  Each time we have told them that we are not on 
    town water.

    Last month when my mother was here for a week, they asked HER if 
    they could install a meter.  Not realizing we had a private well, 
    she made an appointment for the next day.  After we explained the 
    situation to her she agreed to handle the technician when he arrived 
    the next day.  When he came to the house, she asked him if he could 
    hook us up to town water first.  He didn't think it was funny.

    The next week, they called AGAIN, asking to install the meter.  I 
    explained that we had our own well. We talked for a while about why 
    they were having so much difficulty understanding the fact that we 
    had a private well.  It seems that they were really trying to install 
    a meter at Clinton Langley's house.  You see, Clinton lives at 
    9 Sprucewood Rd (we live at 9 Sprucewood Ave).  In the end, the caller 
    decided to cross Clinton Langley's name off the list because it was to 
    much trouble to resolve the issue correctly.

    We haven't heard from them since.  And to this day, neither Clinton 
    Langley's house nor our house has a new water meter.

    I suspect what happened to Chris is that he was using water which was
    counted on the 'real' part of his water meter, but _not_ counted on the
    'virtual' part (the repeater on the outside of his house).  Since the
    'virtual' meter never showed this water, he wasn't charged for it, but
    the town finally caught up to him and now they want their money.  If
    the water rates have gome up in the last couple of years, he shouldn't
    have to pay all of that water at today's rates, but that's probably
    hard to explain to the water department.
    
    I had a similar 'problem' with the power company in Waltham.  They
    never read my meter, never billed me, and never contacted me till the
    day (a year after I moved in) the guy came by to nail the 'final notice
    of disconnection' to my door.  [As an aside, I had electric heat and I
    don't think they were allowed to disconnect me, but they were allowed
    to threaten it.]  Fortunately for me, I had been reading the electric
    meter every month, writing them a check for 10 cents/HWHR, and stuffing
    it into a drawer.  I gave them the appropriate hard time about not
    having billed me and why should I have to pay this, and got them
    started on a payment plan, then I caved in and sent them the old
    checks.  But you gotta keep an eye on these people!
    
    Willie

    No no no!!  YOu guys got it wrong.  THere are two issues here.  The
    first is that the town NEVER read my meter NOR the remote unit.  THe
    second issue is that the meter and remote unit don't match.  I don't
    argue that I owe them something, but if they can't prove there's
    anything wrong with the remote unit, then I say that's the right one.
    I don't have the slightest idea why the remote and the meter don't
    match.  If they had an independent componey test the meter ahd remote
    and it came back that the remote was defective, I wouldn't argue.
    
    Chris D.
    
    p.s Well, I guess you could call the 14% interest charge a third issue
    now.  In about 15 minutes, I'm leaving for the selectmen's meeting to
    see if this gets brought up.  My cousin, who works in another town
    gevernment system, said that just because the issue is not on the
    agenda doesn't mean it won't get discussed, especially if a lot of
    angree citizens arrive. GGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!  Is that
    angree enough?  :^)

    You should be able to call the town clerk and get the issue on
    the agenda for a selectman's meeting.  Then you (and 5,000
    other people? :-) ) could go and state your case.
    

    There was nothing at the Selectman's meeting last night.  However, one
    of them told me in the hall that at tonight's town meeting, it will
    probably be brought up.  He's expecting lots of people like me to show
    up.
    
    Chris D.

    Minus a few ..... someone said that you SHOULD pay interest on the
    money owed, since in effect Billerica residents had collected interest
    on the money they didn't have to pay.  Now, I'm not into investing and
    squeezing every cent out of every last dollar, but the last time I
    checked, about all the interest that I could get on a few hundred
    dollars was about 5%.  And the last time I checked there was a big
    difference between 5% and 14% ... but maybe it's this new math.  
    
    Chris .... I would suggest keeping a file with every action that you've
    made, dates, times, conversations and who you talked to.  Sooner or
    later someone's going to say 'Well, who told you that?', and you're not
    going to remember and they'll REALLY start ignoring you.
    
    	GOOD LUCK!!  And boy am I GLAD I don't live in Billerica!!
    
    RE: Clinton .... If I was Clinton, I'd make sure that no one tried to
    read my meter when I moved (of course by then they might not be ABLE to
    read those old-fashioned meters (-;) ... could you imagine ignoring
    someone cuz their street address happened to be similar to someone
    elses?????  It amazes me that anything ever gets done ....
    

This is money that you don't need to take out a 14% personal loan to have 
access to ;^)

>>    checked, about all the interest that I could get on a few hundred
>>    dollars was about 5%.  And the last time I checked there was a big
>>    difference between 5% and 14% ... but maybe it's this new math.  
    
     Yeah, I think I mentioned that a few back too.
    
>>    Chris .... I would suggest keeping a file with every action that you've
>>    made, dates, times, conversations and who you talked to.  Sooner or
    
     I send myself mail and keep it in a mail folder.  I've always done
    this, but thanks for that advice.  Someone else may read this and learn
    from it.
    
>>    	GOOD LUCK!!  And boy am I GLAD I don't live in Billerica!!
    
    Well, I moved from Lowell, so I am better off.
    
>>    RE: Clinton .... If I was Clinton, I'd make sure that no one tried to
    
    If I lived in Clinton, I wouldn't tell anybody.  :^)
    
    
         Chris D.

    Any update on this note?
    
    I'm trying to help my mom with the same situation.  She has lived in
    the house for almost 20 years, so you can image what her "Catch-up"
    bill was.
    
    I too called the water dept. and was told to call the town hall who
    told me to write a letter to Mr. Talbot, town administrator.  Boy, did
    I write him a letter!  
    
    How can the town of Billerica expect residents to pay the outragous
    "Catch-up" bills and be penalized with interest on top of it!  The
    nerve! 

    Reading your last reply reminded me to call them.  I sent my letter
    2 weeks ago, so I figured it's about time for the follow-up call.
    I was told by the selectman's office that they will review all the
    letters and respond by mail or phone about a payment schedule.
    Well, I have more than just a payment schedule to worry about.  I have
    2 different readings from the meter and the remote box.  The person
    in charge of this is a guy by the name of Richard Bento (I don't know
    if that's how you spell his last name, but that's how you say it,
    bent-o).  I called him (671-0955) and he was out of the office for the
    rest of the day, so I'll try him tomorrow.
    
    Chris D.

    If the water meter reads more than the remote box, the remote box
    may have been added later. This probably has been mentioned, what I
    really want to say is what happened to me...
    
    3 years ago Goffstown N.H. started charging a sewer bill so they can
    connect to manchester sewer plant instead of going direct into the
    river(s)...
    Well I got 2 bills for my Duplex, one at 53, and one at 55 Pershing St.
    I call them up and ask Why I got 2 bills and they say because it's 
    2 units each are charged... (That was 3 years ago) SOme where along
    the line I asked someone else who had a duplex and they were only 
    getting one bill, and I called and asked again, and got the same story.
    I know I stated the amount but they didn't catch it. 
    Well my quarterly bill came in Sept. and I only got one. Course for
    the past year the numbers on the houses changed from 53-55 to 64A-B.
    The sewer dept was just correcting and checking up on units/house
    and one of the bills I was getting was actually my neighbors.
    He just started getting billed in September... Sewer dept figured
    I just sold the property to this other person... wrong...
    When I only recieved one bill I called and asked what the sewer
    bills were again and they said each unit is build. And I said $100
    per unit and they said no $50. and I said I was getting 2 bills for 
    $100 and gave the 2 account numbers, and thats when she figured out
    I was paying the neighbors account number with my name and address 
    on the bill for 3 years. Well They sent me a check plus interest,
    I had all my bills and check reciepts to prove it...
    I asked if my neighbor was going to have to come up with $1200,
    she said she didn't know, because it was their fault, and the 
    board would have to decide... I'll have to ask Ron next time I see
    him, if they are trying to charge him for the past 3 year sewer
    bills... Glad I got my money and interest...
    
    Jean

    Well, after all this time my water meter problems with the town still
    haven't been settled yet, but now, here's something interesting.  I
    just got a water bill for the last 3/4 months, and guess what!!  There
    is now noplace on the bill that states if it was an estimate or actual
    reading.  How low can you go??!!
    
    Chris D>

I have been told by a plumber that the waterpipe from the street to 
the house has a leak. There is no visual evidence of this, such as 
puddles forming on the front lawn etc. The plumber turned off the 
water supply to the house and listened to the pipe at the point that 
it enters the basement. As he could hear the motion of water through 
the pipe when no water is entering the internal system in the house he 
claims that I must have a leak. Does anyone know of a way to verify 
this? In addition to the expense of ripping up half the front yard I 
am concerned that damage will occur to the foundation of the house, 
especially if the leak is close to the house,

Thanks,

David.

    
    My house has a main shutoff inside the house as well as one at the
    street.  You could shutoff the one just inside the house and leave the
    street turned on.  Check the meter before you go to bed and again the
    following morning.  If a change in the numbers, you have a leak
    outside.  If no change in the meter, no leak that night.

    RE: .1
    
    The inside shutoff valve is before the water meter.  If you shut it
    off, why would you expect the meter to change if water is leaking
    outside under the front lawn?
    
    RE: .0
    
    You could call the town water department to have them check it out
    for free nonetheless.  There is some sort of listening
    device to detect underground leaks in water mains.
    
    -al

    
    I guess I don't understand what damage can occur to the foundation of
    the house.  Could if possibly crack?
    
    Anyway, I lived in a house where this happened.  It took a long time to
    figure out what the problem was.  The first thing we noticed was that
    our water pressure seemed low.  We called the town water people to come
    out to the house.  They came by at least twice and scratched their
    chins and pulled at their ears and walked out to the street and looked
    at the ground and then decided the meter was somehow defective and
    took it out of the line.  They went away and we never heard from them
    again.  No improvement, but it seemed to stabilize and wasn't bad enough 
    to _bother_ us enough to pursue it.  Then it got worse.  Taking a
    shower was like standing under a drip.  Then, one day, as I went to get 
    into my car, I realized that the ground was very muddy just at the edge 
    of the driveway, where I had to step to get into my car.  This also 
    happened to be late winter/early spring and the ground was just
    beginning to thaw.  Called the water department.  Broken pipe, no
    mistake about it.  It was about 4 feet from where the pipe went under
    the house (or through the cement under the garage).
    
    I guess my feeling is, if it's a broken pipe, you'll find concrete
    evidence of it sooner or later.
    
    CQ

    .2
     
    I re-read my reply and maybe we are talking about differnt shutoff
    valves.  The water dept. provides a shutoff valve before the meter to
    allow the water dept. to shut off the water.  A pipe leads from the
    meter to the house.  Once the pipe enters the house, there is usually
    another shutoff valve installed by the plumber.  This is the valve I
    was alluding to.  If the valve *inside* the house is shutoff and the
    valve at the meter is turned on, then the only place that is being
    supplied with water is the pipe in the front lawn.  If the meter
    changes, there is a leak in that pipe.  If no meter change, the leak is
    inside the house somewhere.
    
    Are we talking apples to apples?
    

    Can someone explain to me how a meter placed *after* a leaky pipe
    will detect the leak? Doesn't the meter measure water going thru it?
    
    Edd

    Sounds like .4 has a meter in a "non-standard" place.  In all the
    cases I've seen, the city has a shutoff valve outside the house
    where your water feed connects to the main.  The pipe from this
    valve enters the house where it connects to another shutoff valve.
    The meter is AFTER this shutoff valve so the meter can be replaced
    without having to get to the "outside" (street) shutoff.
    
    If the street valve is shut off in this case, no water will flow
    to the meter inside the house.
    
    Is .5's meter outside the house?

    Water meters are always outside the house.      True or false?
    
    If water meters are inside the house, how does the water department get
    to the meter to read the meter to send you a bill?  In my area, all
    water meters are outside the house, about 10-15 feet from the street in
    a small metal housing in the ground in the front lawn.  In the same
    houseing is the shutoff valve provided by the water dept. 
    
    It seems that from some of the previous replies that what is "standard"
    in one location differs from other standards.  My replies assume that
    the "standard" location is the meter is outside the house.  Does that
    make my replies make more sense?
    

Here in New England, the water meter is inside the house.  The meter is not
"read" by anyone.  In Chelmsford, a card is mailed out and I fill out the reading.
I am then billed based on this.

Ed..

>    Water meters are always outside the house.      True or false?

I have NEVER seen a water meter outside the house.  In my experience in the
Boston suburbs, the water meter is always in the basement, after a shutoff
valve.

Some meters have remote-reads on the outside of the house.  Some are read only
by access to the cellar.

    re .8
    
    Then again, in THIS part of New England, the "meter" is inside the
    house and the "reader receptacle" is on the outside of the house.  The
    Meter reader comes by, plugs into the receptacle and gets a reading. 
    No meter indication is available otherwise.
    
    Dave
    

Hey, where are all the rocket scientists?  I surmise that in the south,
water meters are outside the house because it's easier to read them there.
In the north, they're inside the house so they don't freeze.

    In Haverhill, MA, the meters are in the house. The Water Meter Readers
    come by every six months to read the meters. If you're not home, they
    send you a card which you fill out and send back. 
    
    

    re.11...absolutely correct !...in the south and various other "mild"
    climes...the meter is outside in the yard and there is another shutoff 
    put in the line after the meter and before the house feed. So in
    essence the troubleshooting would indeed work in this case. I guess
    they just don't feel those of us in milder climes have the necessary 
    ability to read a meter..  ;^)...Also I might point out that the water
    company considers the run from the meter to the house the 
    responsibility of the homeowner and will charge you if the problem is 
    on "your" side of the
    meter....
    

    Ok.  For all you people with the meter in the wrong place ;^), then
    you will have to dig up your yard to find a leak.  For all of us with
    the meter in the bright and sensible place :^), then troubleshooting
    leaks in the pipe from the street into the the house is real easy.
    
    Why not try hiring someone who divines for water and see if he can find
    your leak.  If he cannot, then you don't have one.  If he does, then
    you will have to dig up your yard to fix it.

>    you will have to dig up your yard to find a leak.  For all of us with
    
    Bruce, I have my meter in the wrong place, had a leak outside the 
house, and had *NO* problem finding the leak. It was a wet spot on the 
early spring lawn last year for a week. By early one Sunday morning, it was 
a small spring rising to the surface with about a 3" high "bubbler effect" 
to it......and that was from a pipe 8' undergrown! (Do you know how much 
water was in the ground? Can you  believe a definate runoff was found downhill 
50' away on the sidewalk!) The town had to dig up my driveway to get at the 
shutoff because it broke when they tried to shut my water off, so I had two 
holes to fix, one at the street/driveway, one in the yard! The town fixed 
my driveway no problem....the other was just about $1,000 for repairs. 


Seems the original water pipe made a good pathway to follow into the house 
when they added sewers years ago. Digging for the sewer cut the water line 
which they repaired at that time and it was that repair that failed us. Of 
course, digging for for water line, guess what sewer line they broke thru 
and had to repair..... 8^(

    Vic

         Having been a meter-reader for the City of Colorado Springs back
    in the summer before my senior year of high school, I know that we have
    indoor water meters AND outdoor remotes.  We read the digital remotes
    (not LEDs or LCDs, but rolling digits like odometers) each month for bills,
    and checked the indoor meters every six months to verify that the remote 
    was working.
    
         I also recall that there were often covered "pits" with additional 
    meters near the branch from the water main or in a manhole where problems 
    with the other meters could be checked.  If this is true in the case of 
    the person with the leak, it could be checked easily before visible
    puddles show up.
    
                                        Greg

Go to your HW store and buy a water pressure meter -- I got one at spags
for a few bucks that attaches to a standard threaded outlet, e.g. in place
of a garden hose, although I have threaded outlets conveniently placed in
my basement.

Attach the thing, open the valve to the threaded outlet, and read what
your normal water pressure is.  Now shut off the water at the street and
wait.  If the pressure gradually drops to near zero, you've got a leak
somewhere in your plumbing.  

Note that the reverse method, if you have threaded outlets in the right
places, can be used to find a *blockage* in a pipe (e.g. iron scale).
Connect the pressure meter, check what it says, then *turn on* the water
somewhere downstream.  If there is a blockage in the pipe, the pressure
will either stay high or drop very low, depending which side the meter is
on.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    	I have just purchased an omni brand whole house water filter..
      the unit will adapt to either 1/2 or 3/4 inch tubing. My main line
      mesures out to 1 1/4 inch... runs that size from the meter to a 
      T then branching 3/4 inch two ways. One way to the furnace/water
      heater feed, the other supplies house cold water..
    
    	my question:
    
       1. is it ok to size down to 3/4 to allow filter instal
    	  the line would go 1 1/4 to 3/4 to filter to 3/4 to 1 1/4.
    
       2. should i have two filters..one on each 3/4 line ?
    
       3. get a filter for larger size pipe ? ( does one exist?)
    
    
      I think scenario 1. should work ...it ends as that T anyway..?
    
    					your thought,
    
    					thanks..George Quist
    
    					feel free to reply direct..(
    melody::quistg )

	I would not recommend installing any reduction below 1" because 
	you will be placing too large a restriction in your feed line.
	The net result will be less flow and under heavy loads (flushing 
	a toilet, filling a washer, watering a lawn) a significant 
	reduction in pressure.


					Bruce

But it doesn't just "end at that T".  It splits into two lines at that T.  A 
3/4" line has a much smaller flow than 1 1/4.  Assuming those measurements are
inside diameter (they are probably outside diameter, which would make the
comparison even more disparate) a 3/4" line has a cross section of pi*r�, or
pi*(3/8)�=.44 in�.  A 1 1/4" pipe has a cross section of pi*(5/8)�=1.23 in�, or
nearly three times the cross section of the 3/4" pipe.

You currently have one 3/4" pipe supplying your cold water, and one 3/4" pipe
supplying your hot water.  With that filter in the main line, you will 
effectively have one 3/4" pipe supplying your whole house, which may decrease 
the flow significantly if you have both hot and cold water running at the same 
time.

That said, nothing particularly horrible will happen if you do this.  Most 
single faucet lines are 1/2" anyway (.2 in� cross section), so you'll notice no
difference with one faucet running hot and cold at full flow.  You may notice
a pressure drop if you open several faucets at the same time.  For example you
may notice a more significant drop in pressure in the shower if someone turns on
another faucet or flushes a toilet.  You decide whether that is worth buying 
another filter and installing one in each line.

Paul

    
    
    The best solution would be two filters, one for each of your 3/4"
    lines. 
    
    If you insist on using one filter go with the 1 1/4" to 3/4" to filter
    then on the output side of the filter leave it 3/4". If you go from big
    to small to big you will have a reduction in volume of water flow.
    Going from small to big to small gives you a reduction in pressure. 
    
    
    
    

>If you go from big to small to big you will have a reduction in volume of
>water flow. Going from small to big to small gives you a reduction in
>pressure. 
    
Could you elaborate?

Last time I checked Somerville Lumber had filters with 1" in and out.


					Bruce

    Unless there is something wrong with the water, that even hot water is
    in need of filtration, why dont you simply install the filter in the
    cold water circuit somewhere after the water feeds the heater.
    
    You might look at the plumbing and see if by chance there is a "common"
    cold water feed to your kitchen and bathroom(s) and install it in that
    line.  The benefit would be reducing filter load by 50%, and probably
    extending it's longevity significantly.
    
    Ron

     
    re .4 HUH?
    
    
    Sorry - dislexia of the fingers or I got carried away (or got
    stupid;*)).
    
    Volume is volume. no matter what size pipe you go from or to you will
    get the same amount of water, but, if you go from a small pipe to a big
    one you will lose pressure. (You have to fill up the extra space before
    the water can go on) check some one else's math but once the pressue is
    lost it wont come back without some kind of assistance.

    Here's another opinion:
    
    You won't lose volume, and you won't lose pressure; what you will
    lose is flow rate.  If you are thinking of "volume" as "flow rate",
    that's what you'll lose with the reduction.
    It would help to increase the size of the pipe back up after the
    filter, because the larger pipe will have less internal friction
    at the boundary layer between water and pipe in relation to the total
    amount of water going through the pipe.
    Otherwise I dont't think it matters.

    THANKS FOR ALL YOUR SUGGESTIONS... HAVE GONE OFF TO FIND THE PROPER
    DEVICE FOR THE 1 1/4" LINE...A NEIGHBOR HAS A NICE SETUP I WILL COPY.
    
    					THNKS 
    
    					GEORGE QUIST

No one has answered the suggestion of just putting the filter on the cold water
side of the split.  This seemed to me to be the best suggestion.  Why would he
not want to do this?

Ed..

    
    
     I personally like to filter ALL water coming into my house. Water
    heaters, furnaces, washing machines and faucets all seem to run
    'cleaner'. Of course it probably depends on how unclean your water
    is to begin with.
    
     Bob
    

    We have quite a problem with our water, high iron and turbidity, so we
    want to make sure all that crud doesn't get in the hw heater,
    dishwasher, washing machine, and so forth. However, all the outside
    faucets are ahead of the filter/softener system. That seems to improve
    a bit on pressure for lawn watering, etc. It also saves on the filters
    since the water as is won't hurt the grass.
    
    Lynn
    

    
    	Well, it has been over 9 months since this was started.  The new
    *easy access* meters have been installed and I'm curious how other
    Billericans are faring???
                My 1st bill under the new system was almost 'right on'
    but the 2nd was way low.....this is the 1st LOW bill I've had in
    10 years in Billerica  BUT both bills have been estimates....still
    have yet to see the meter reader...what a waste of money these new
    meters have been!!!
    		Any one else ?????			Paul E.
    		

>    Unless there is something wrong with the water, that even hot water is
>    in need of filtration, why dont you simply install the filter in the
>    cold water circuit somewhere after the water feeds the heater.
    
      Onl the other hand, if there is nothing wrong with the water, then
      why filter at all???
      
      Seriously...  There  are  [at  least]  two  possible  reasons  for
      filtering:  (a) taste, and (b) clarity.  In the case  of  (a)  the
      above  suggestion  is  just fine, with the possible exception that
      you may not want to use hot water in cooking.  However, if (b)  is
      the problem you want to filter all the water so that you don't end
      up ruining your water heater, cloths and dish washers, sinks, tubs
      and  toilets with stains and sediment.  Feeding dirty water into a
      hot water heater can render it useless in a fraction of its normal
      life  span.  Sediment in cloth and diswashers will end up staining
      clothing and dishes.  Stains in sinks, tubs and toilets  are  just
      about  impossible  to  remove and make for a really crumby looking
      bathroom.  (Never looks like you cleaned it.)

    
    Well, as best as i can tell, mine have been a bit under the
    past couple of times.  But close enough to believe they indeed
    'read' something at some point in time during the months.
    
    I'll try to check more closely next time.
    
    deb
    

    I haven't received a second bill yet.  The first was very close.  I
    forgot how to tell on the bill if it's an actual or estimate.  I'll
    have to look at the next bill to remind myself.  THey used to just say
    the words actual or estimate, but they don't anymore.
    I haven't paid my $400+ that I owe from the conversion.  Too many
    medical bills to catch up on right now.  When that stuff settles down,
    then I'll know what I have available.
    There is a Chelmsford resident that owns rental property in Billerica.
    Her bill is $14,000+ !!!!!!! 
    
    Chris D.   

    
    	Check those bill closely!   I called the Water Dept. to get a
    "proper" bill.  The clerk was pissed at my usage of 'proper' vs.
    updated bill.  When she asked why, I said, " I want to pay current
    rates for current usage and not have to worry about a $14K bill later."
    She had heard that alot yesterday....the article made quite an impact
    in town....
    			Paul E.

It's true that the flow rate is reduced by using a 3/4 line instead of a
1 1/4 line.  However, those who recommended that the base noter get a
filter with a bigger input pipe are forgetting two points:

1)  It is quite common to have the main line to a house be 3/4, before it
splits.  According to a plumber I respect, with normal input pressure,
3/4 provides plenty of flow for normal household use.

2)  The above point is moot anyway, because the water FILTER provides a
restriction to water flow that is going to absolutely blow away the 
restriction provided by using a 3/4 pipe instead of a 1 1/4 pipe.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Anybody know what the average per person domestic water useage is (not
    including watering a lawn, etc.)?  I just bought a house and am
    considering installing low flow taps, etc., but want to see how my
    useage stacks up to the average before I make the investment.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve
    

My water bill for April, May, June was ~500 gal/day
July, August, September was ~720 gal/day (with a new lawn).

My household consists of my wife, and three children 5 and under.

This matches with my recollection of ~100 gal/day/person, plus watering.

	-JJ

    Economics aside, I'd buy the low-flow showerheads anyway; I prefer
    the shower they give.  And don't forget that in addition to saving
    water, they save HOT water (and therefore save on hot water heating
    costs).
    I've never seen anything even remotely suggesting that low-flow
    aerators and shower heads weren't an economic win in virtually
    any situation.

    Anybody know the conversion factor from gallons to cf (cubic feet)?
    

     <<< Note 4407.3 by SSAG::SUSSWEIN "Ski for real, with a free heel" >>>

    Anybody know the conversion factor from gallons to cf (cubic feet)?
    
	One gallon = 0.13368 cu. ft.

    ...or 6.8 gallons/cubic foot, more or less.
    

Re: .4, .5

These numbers don't match.  0.13368 ft�/gal = 7.48 gal/ft�, which isn't
close to 6.8 gal/ft�.

I figured it out once by converting to metric and back, and came up with
about 7.5 gal/ft�, which is about what reply .4 said.

    ...yep. I dragged in the wrong conversion factor from somewhere.
    
    (Now what is 6.8 x something else....???  sigh....)

    I know from checking with the Board of Health that they require a
    septic system able to handle 110 gals/day/bedroom.

    -->    (Now what is 6.8 x something else....???  sigh....)
    
    
    	6.8 rings a bell as the number of lbs/gal of water

    One gallon of water weighs 8 pounds.
                              
                     1 pound
    128 ounces  *  -----------  =  8 pounds
                    16 ounces

    RE: .10
    
    I think you have your ounces mixed up.  128 ounces of water (for a
    gallon) are VOLUME ounces, whereas 1 pound is 16 WEIGHT ounces.
    They are not interchangeable.
    
    -al

A gallon of water weighs about 8.3 lbs.

-Mike

        The "english" measure system is such that an ounce(volume) of
        water weighs an ounce(weight). The metric system is also so
        designed, one cubic centimeter of water weighs one gram.

    re: .13
    I don't believe 1 ounce volume of water = 1 ounce weight of water.
    It's close, but it's not exact...unlike the metric system in which,
    as you rightly point out, 1 cc = 1 gm, by definition (at some n 
    degrees C).

re .13:

No.  The English system is based on such units as the length from some king's
nose to the fingertip of his outstretched arm, the weight of a grain of barley,
etc.  The conversion from oz. liquid to oz. weight of water is close, but
not exact.

The weight of a gallon of water is 8.338 lbs.

-Mike

�The conversion from oz. liquid to oz. weight of water is close, but
�not exact.

�The weight of a gallon of water is 8.338 lbs.

I don't know what *you* have been drinking in your pint container, but it sure
isn't water!

At STP (0 deg. C, 1 atm of pressure), water has a density of 1000 Kgram/cubic
meter.  It's 958 Kg/m� at 100 deg C.

At sea level, one kg weighs 2.20462 pounds, so:

1 lb *(1 kg/2.20462 lb)*(1 m�/1000 kg)*(61024 in�/m�)*(1 gal/231 in�)*(8 pt/gal)

= .959 pounds/pint

If you use the density of water at 100 deg C, you get:

1 lb *(1 kg/2.20462 lb)*(1 m�/958  kg)*(61024 in�/m�)*(1 gal/231 in�)*(8 pt/gal)

= 1.001 pounds/pint

So, according to my conversion factors (Physics, Parts I and II, Halliday and
Resnick), one pint of water weighs one pound at some temperature pretty close to
boiling.

								-- Chuck Newman

The reference density of water is always given at its maximum density (at 4�C
or ~39�F) so "a pint's a pound" is wrong at the reference density.  I suppose
it may be true there may be a density where this is the case, but how often
does one have to worry about the weight of boiling water, compared to the
weight of room temp. or cold water?

-Mike

    .16, .15:
    
    Well, I've read before that the adage is off by a few percent, and that
    a gallon weighs 8-and-1/3 pounds.
    
    Are you sure that the figures you quote (.959 lbs/pint, and 1.001
    lbs/pint) aren't the *reciprocal* of the actual figures?  The way they
    read, the density of water increases with temperature, which
    contradicts your first statement about the density of water. Also,
    1.000/.959 * 8  is 8.336, which fits what I've read before...
    1.000/1.001 * 8 is just under 8 (pounds per gallon) -- but I'll bet
    most readers here have much more experience with *substantial*
    quantities of water between 0� and maybe 30�C, than between 70� and
    100�.
    
    Dick

Re:.18�Are you sure that the figures you quote (.959 lbs/pint, and 1.001
�      lbs/pint) aren't the *reciprocal* of the actual figures?  The way they
�      read, the density of water increases with temperature, which
�      contradicts your first statement about the density of water.

No contradiction -- I reported inverse density (pounds/pint)

Re:.17�The reference density of water is always given at its maximum density

Ah, so *that* is why 1 liter has a volume of 1000.028 cc's:  That's at it's
maximum density.

								-- Chuck Newman

The saying I learned, "a pint's a pound the world around", is only true in
the US.  We still use the pint that England used back when were colonies.
The United Kingdom changed over some time ago.  I think their saying is
"a pound and a quarter is a pint of water".  Or is that "a pint and a 
quarter is a pound of water"?

As if the question of the weight of a pint wasn't confused enough already.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Time to get out an accurate scale and weigh a gallon of water.

re .21:

Don't forget the accurate graduate, accurate thermometer, and distilled water.

    Water
    
    " ...weight per gallon (15 degrees C) 8.3337 pounds."
    
    American Heritage Dictionary, 1978

    Let's go have a pint and get back to the topic.
    
    ed

    
    	I was taught the 'pint weighs a pound.' thing along with 
    	'a gallon weighs about 8 lbs."  as quick rule of thumb
    calculations, meant for making estamates.  Not for precise
    calculations.
    
    
    	So, if someone says that they are thinking about putting a 500 gal 
    	water tank on the roof of their house you can tell them that they
    are looking at about (500 x 8, or 4000 lbs.) two tons sitting on their
    rafters.                                               
    		Things like that.

Getting back to the base note, I think the insert with my last water bill
showed the average consumption.  I'm pretty sure I tossed it, but if anyone
with Boston Water still has the insert, they could tell you.  For that matter,
you could call Boston Water or any other water utility and ask.

	Re: .most

	All this attempted accuracy in a notesfile whose subject deals with
things like "2x4s" that are not only not 2x4, but aren't even the same size
depending upon how dry they are and how two 2x4s put together don't equal a
2x8???  ;-)

								-c

Aside from the weighty topic at hand, here's some perspective perhaps more 
useful to the author of .0:

During the last 100 years, people's water consumption has increased lots.
In some water-rich countries (eg the US), water usage is 

			66-100 gals/day

per capita.  This is far above the UN recommended daily supply of 

		       16 gals/day/person. 

Many mideast countries as well as S. Africa, India, China, UK, etc. may face 
water shortages by the year 2000 due to population density and limited supply.

country  population   people/well   

USA	  250M		20
Sweden	    8.4M	42
Nigeria	   20M      25,000
Ethiopia   25M	   250,000

Water resource renewal occurs via globally interacting ecosystems...

Now - what were you wondering about those low-flow showerheads?

Mark

(I wonder if they'll have low-flow car,clothes, and dishwashers?)

Re .19

The liter *used* to be defined that way. In the early 70's the Liter was
redefined to being EXACTLY 1000 cm�.

The discussion in this topic shows why water usage should be measured in m�
(= 1000 liter).

    re.28
    low flow car washes...
    Most americans are all to hung up on washing their car and having the
    greenest(what an oxymoron) lawn on the block.
    
    -j

    My truck may not be spotless, but I do prefer that it resemble the
    original color. Plus some of the crud that settles on the car is not
    very good for the paint, especially road salt in winter. As to lawns, 
    go xenoscape (sp?), especially in dry climates.
    
    Eric

     A cousin of mine thinks there is a part of the plumbing code that 
specifies 3/4" pipe if there is more than one faucet on the run and 1/2" 
pipe only if there is one faucet at the end of it.  I'm skeptical because 
all the supply plumbing in my house is 1/2", regardless of how many 
faucets are on the line.

     Is it ok to use 1/2" throughout, or should pipes nearer to the street 
be 3/4"?

    
    I don't know about code, but that's the way my house plumbing is done.
    
    Mike

    I have 3/4" feed to the water heater, outside faucets and UG sprinklers
    1/2" to everything else the incoming water line is 3/4". You can really
    tell the difference between 1/2 & 3/4" when it comes to high volume
    applications like UG sprinklers. I doubt there is a code around this
    the main consideration is price 1/2" being cheaper to install than
    3/4".
    If the incoming feed pipe is only 1/2" having 3/4" inside the house
    is a waste.
    
    -j

      I  don't  think its code, but I believe it is good practice to use
      3/4" pipe for all cold water lines  that  feed  (1)  two  or  more
      faucets, (2) any faucet designed to accept a hose, and (3) the hot
      water heater.  This generally  provides  noticeably  better  water
      flow.   1/2"  pip  is fine for the end of the pipe run to the last
      faucet.

      For  the hot water lines 1/2" pipe is generally used so that there
      is less cold water to run off before the faucet runs hot.

      This  applies  to  single  family  homes.   Different  practice is
      appropriate for multi-family homes (apartments, condos, etc.)  and
      for commercial/industrial situations.

    I'd like to increase the water pressure in my house.  I've heard 
    that one can buy a pump (and pressure tank?) to alleviate the 
    problem.

    Would anyone care to offer me some advice?
    Thanks

    -Phil

    You can get a bit more pressure by tweaking/replacing the pressure
    switch on your existing rig, but I believe the way to do it properly
    is by using bigger pipe...
    
    Edd

    re: .12
    I take it you have town water that you want to boost the pressure of?
    
    If so yes, I suppose you could buy a pump and pressure tank to boost
    the pressure.  It would basically be the same rig as you would have
    with a well, except you wouldn't need a very fancy pump - the water
    would be right there and all the pump would have to do is push it into
    the pressure tank.
    
    Before you do that though, check to see if there is a pressure
    regulator on your incoming supply line (I'm still assuming here that
    you have town water).  Sometimes the pressure regulator (if there
    is one) can get crudded up and cut the pressure too much.
    
    If you have old galvanized iron pipe anywhere (possibly coming in
    from the street?), it may be corrodded and plugged up inside.  Only
    solution there is new pipe.

I live in Nashua, NH and am on city water. When I moved in, the water pressure
was so poor that if the neighbor was watering his yard, I could barely shower.
(Was that a pun?)  The neighbor at the end of street couldn't wash clothes 
and do anything else at the same time.  They'd been there 7 years and watched
it get progressively worse without doing a thing.  

Against one neighbor's recommendation, I called the water company.  I suspect
my neighbor thought we'd all wind up paying for whatever remedial action was
necessitated. They came and metered our pressure. We resisted the urge to 
do laundry/shower/water/dishes all at the same time and still they recorded
a low of 8 psi at the end of the street.  Our low was in the teens so at least
some water got to the second floor.

The water company installed a new water line and as a result repaved the
crumbling alley which they destroyed in the process.  I got water my lawn now,
and I'll have sufficient pressure for an additional bath in the attic now, the
kids got a smoothly paved alley for cycling and skateboarding, and it cost us
one phone call, that's all.

>    I take it you have town water that you want to boost the pressure of?
    The water is from a community well, this particular development 
    gets its water from a common well.
    
>    If so yes, I suppose you could buy a pump and pressure tank to boost
>    the pressure.  It would basically be the same rig as you would have
>    with a well, except you wouldn't need a very fancy pump - the water
>    would be right there and all the pump would have to do is push it into
>    the pressure tank.
    Are there different types, sizes?

    
>    Before you do that though, check to see if there is a pressure
>    regulator on your incoming supply line (I'm still assuming here that
>    you have town water).  Sometimes the pressure regulator (if there
>    is one) can get crudded up and cut the pressure too much.
    I'll check
    
    Thanks.
    /Phil

    Has anyone put in a second water meter for outside (and presumably,
    no sewarage) use only?
    
    In our town (Natick, MA), the town was installing outside meters for
    free (or $35) to assist with rising MWRA rates.  This year they no
    longer do that.  Wouldn't you know, this year I've moved to a new house
    and want an outside meter.  They estimate we have a plumber install a
    meter  for about $600-800.  Of course, they were guessing.  
    
    If a meter (from previous reply) cost about $50, and a plumber works
    for about $50/hr.  How long should it take?

	I've got well water,and just had some plumbing work done (new pressure
	valve) and now my water pressure is alot lowere than it was. Is 
	there a way for me to adjust this, or do I need to call the plumber
	back

	Ken

    RE: .3
    
    A water pressure reducer valve can be adjusted...but...if you paid the
    plumber to install it, I would call him/her back.
    
    Marc H.

It's probably not worth the hassle of calling the plumber back.  There was 
a screw thingy in the middle of mine which I adjusted.  I had some horrific
water hammer every time I turned off a faucet quickly.  My water pressure
is 70+ psi.  Great for putting in a lawn sprinkler system though.  I didn't
need very many zones.  ;-)

Stan

    What is the proper average water pressure (PSI) for a residental home?
    I am refering to the town supplied cold water on the house side of
    the water meter anywhere along the distribution lines.
    
    Thanks, Jim

    RE: .0
    60 PSI is considered a good value for a home.
    
    My town supplies 110 PSI...I have a regulator.
    
    Marc H.

    
    Is the regulator built into the meter?  Where I am in Nashua
    it seems like my faucets are running less pressure than I
    am told you get in another part of town.  Maybe I can
    adjust this?

    Seeing as I just went through this earlier this week.  In Sudbury, they
    try to have 75 psi at the house.  The std regulator that they use drops
    it to 55-60 inside the house.  Mine was just replaced.  It failed, 
    slowly over the past n years to the point that we only had 24-25 PSI
    out of it.  The guy that replaced it said that the there are two
    failure modes.  Fail-open in which you get the full pressure into the
    house pipes, rare, or fail-closed in which you get very low pressure
    and flow in the house, much more common.  It certainly is nice to have
    the pressure back, but the shower now needs to be labeled hazardous to
    your health since it will almost plaster you against the wall.  Now
    where did I put that restrictor. Oh, that's another note!
    
    Ken

It's not something you can adjust.  Some parts of Nashua do have lower 
pressure due to elevation.  Call Pennichuck Water Works and ask them
about it.  I know they have plans for a big storage tank in the general
"Exit 4" area to help with pressure problems.

				Steve

    I contacted my local water dept and was advised that 60 psi is a good
    number to shoot for. He  said that the water meters do not try to 
    reduce pressure as a matter of fact, the manufacurers go to great
    lenghts not to introduce any pressure reductions.
    
    I am installing an adjustable reducer this week with a spread of 25-75
    PSI. this should do the job.
    
    Thanks/Jim

Hello!

In my friend's house the water supply pipe is badly corroded and need to be
replaced. It is leaking now. This is before the water meter. My friend just 
recently bought this house in Newton, MA. It is his first house and he isn't 
very experienced homeowner. He called the town hall, some guys quickly arrived,
confirmed that pipe has to be replaced, only they can do that, but it is his
reponsibility to find contractors, who will dig the trench for the pipe.

The extra problem here that pipe goes as shown below:

house    attached   tiny     paved
	 room	    front    pedestrian
	 	    yard     path

	| <- 10' ->|<- 5' ->|<- 4' ->| paved street
------  |----------| 
basement|  soil	
	|
--------- <- basement floor
     |
     =======================================
	 water supply pipe

Note, the attached room has its own foundation, but no basement space under it.

So the questions are:

1) What is the best way to accomplish that? Is there some kind of mechanical
'mole' or something which will be able to burrow under the attached room?

2) What kind of contractors will be able to do such job?

3) How much it may cost?

4) Who is responsible for maintanence of water pipes before the water meter?

Thank you very much for your answers.

Gene

    Dig a new trench that doesn't go under the room...
    
    Edd

    
    The pipe can often be replaced with a plastic pipe which is pulled
    through without the need to dig a trench all the way.   I would think
    that the local water company would offer this service.
    
    One thing to watch for - if a plastic replacement is used you may also
    need to get an electrician to check and install a new ground.  The 
    ground is often connected to the copper water feed.
    
    	
    Colin
    

RE -1

Some locales require that supply lines be made of copper- colud be because of
the burst strength and the temperature stability of the copper and joints (or it
could be damn good plumbers' unions).

Gee, its a bummer that the municipality recognizes its responsibility but is
looking for the customer to flip the bill for the expensive part!

    Its called ...Keeping the cost down but passing it along!
    
    Happy digging!
    
    JD

    	The 'locals' in Littleton MA also require:
    
    		- The pipe to be verified at (least) 4' below the surface
    		- 2' of clear sand below the service pipe
    		- 2' of clear sand to each side and over the top of the pipe
    		- A metal ribbon (supplied by them) over the sand so that...
    			(a) Metal detectors can locate and mark the pipe 
    			    (nocando with plastic pipe)
    			(b) Future diggers will see the tape before hitting
    			    the pipe
    		- Their inspection of the required work before burrying the 
    		  whole thing.
    
    
    	 LWD claims responsibility only to their outside shut-off valve
    	at the street. They won't turn on water to new/modified services
    	without inspection. The WILL supply all parts required to get
    	water connected to your main service in the house, they'll also
    	supply you with the bill for the aforementioned items...
    
    	I'ld suggest re-routing the pipe in the least disruptive manner.
    	
    	As previosly mentioned, MAKE SURE an electrician verifies that
    	the plumbing is grounded after the service change. ( I wonder
    	how many people have all PVC connections to their stainless steel 
    	kitchen sink with no supplimental ground wire... not to mention 
    	GFI protection on electric outlets located near water outlets...)
    
    
    	Glenn

	<As previosly mentioned, MAKE SURE an electrician verifies that
    	<the plumbing is grounded after the service change. ( I wonder
    	<how many people have all PVC connections to their stainless steel 
    	<kitchen sink with no supplimental ground wire... not to mention 
    	<GFI protection on electric outlets located near water outlets...)

	Lot's of them. Many DIY'ers ( I'd say most)and some plumbers don't 
	think of it. You'd be surprised how many houses don't even have the
	water pipe system grounded in anyway. 
	
	As for the GFI outlets, if they weren't required when the house was 	
	built and your not modifying or repairing the outlet or remodeling
	the area electrically around the "water outlet"  they don't have
	to be upgraded. 

	Paul
    

>	As for the GFI outlets, if they weren't required when the house was 	
>	built and your not modifying or repairing the outlet or remodeling
>	the area electrically around the "water outlet"  they don't have
>	to be upgraded. 
    
	Understood, GFI upgrades aren't required in the circumstances you
    	mentioned, however, in this DIYer's opinion it seems outright 
    	foolish to not install GFI's on circuits near _every_ water source
    	simply because "the code doesn't require it", particularly given 
    	the minimal cost and effort required. 
    
    	I'm amazed (and sometimes just disgusted) at the negative reactions
    	I have received when suggesting to other DIY'ers a GFI on outdoor or 
    	kitchen sockets. "What's that?", "too expensive" & "too complicated" 
    	to name a few. The life you save may be your own...
    
    
    	Glenn

    GFIs are cheap - $7 nowadays.  I've got them everywhere.
    
    Grounding my stainless steel sink?  Never occurred to me, but it
    seems like a good idea.  I'll do it.
    
    				Steve

RE .7

	As a Master electrician, I realize the potential dangers involved. I
wasn't saying don't put them in. I was simply presenting the other side of the
story. I also personally feel it would be foolish not to put them in. It's cheap
insurance.

Paul

 

    How can you increase city water pressure?
    
    Our pressure os pretty low, and we are going to add a 1/2 bath on the
    first floor and a full bath on the third floor.  (We only have a full
    bath on the second floor)
    
    Rgds,
    
    Chip

    Check to see if you have a pressure regulator in your water line;
    if you do, it's probably a somewhat cone-shaped gizzie just past
    the water meter.  That might be adjustable, or at least replacable
    with one set to a higher pressure.
    
    If you don't, or it can't be adjusted, you could always install 
    a pump and pressure tank setup, I suppose, as one would have for 
    a well.

    RE: .6
    
    I've seen homes with a pump used to increase the public water sent to
    the house. Unless you have a pressure regulator, its the only way.
    
    Marc H.

    RE: Marc and Steve
    
    Thanks for the advice!
    
    Regards,
    
    Chip Bach

    I have a water pressure problem with regards to running a garden
    hose to an area of my property to water a garden. It appears that
    the distance is to great to maintain a good working pressure. 
    
    Without relocating the area that I want the garden how can I 
    compansate for this??     Is there an inline pump that I could
    purchase cheap and install.  What about a small (50g) plastic
    water tank with a small pump.   Anybody run into this??

    Re: .0
    
    What size hose are you using? What is the pressure of the water at the
    source?
    
    Marc H.

    I have tried using the larger of the two diameter hoses that I have
    with the larger being best, but still not the results that I would
    like to see.   The house has it's own well with a pressure tank. 
    the tanks max pressure is 50psi and the pump kicks on at apx 38psi.
    
    Also in my yard I have two faucets (old stlye that look like pumps)
    that are run directly off the well pump.   To make them work I 
    have to open one up and then run the water in the house until the
    pump kicks on. then these yard faucets will supply water but without
    much pressure.  I'm also not sure if I would want to run the pump
    at a constant while watering the garden.     I'm gonna play around
    with the hose diameters a little more coming from a faucet on the
    house but I don't think I will be able to maintian a good constant
    pressure. 
    
    Thanks, Colin
    

    Re: .2
    
    The only fix, short of a separate water supply, is to find a sprinker
    for the garden that will work well with the presure you have. I use
    a pump to supply water to my garden too. One of the sprinklers just
    keeps the pump on, and the coverage is just right.
    
    Marc H.

            x-posted in REAL_ESTATE conference
    
    I'd like some objective opinions on building a house next to a town
    water tower.

    We are in the early phases of building a house on a  6 lot cul-de-sac.
    The lot that we like may have to wait until next spring due to
    deep hole testing and installion of perimeter drains for septic.  We
    don't want to wait.

    Another lot is available at the very end of the cul-de-sac but it is 
    next to a town water tower.

       LOT description

     _____________________
    |   stone  wall      | m
    |                    | e
    | s                  | t
    | t                  | a
    | o                  | l
    | n                  |      water
    | e    -------       | f    tower
    |     | house |      | e
    | w    -------       | n
    | a           d      | c
    | l            r     | e
    | l          w  i    |
    --------------a  v----
                   y  e
  
    The lot is 3 acres, very private, mostly flat, wooded and no chance of 
    any houses being built within eyesight. The tower is painter green so it 
    trys to blend into the scenario but its still there.  If we go this route
    I would plant a staggered row of tall and thick evergreens to hide it from 
    view.  

    I guess one nice thing is nothing could be built on that side that would 
    distract from the privacy of the lot.  Maybe I'm being too cautious.  I 
    mean I've seen new houses built next to an antenna tower with light 
    beacons glaring at night.  I could live with the water tower especially 
    once it is completely hidden from view with the row of evergreens.  
    My main concern is resale within the 10-15 year time frame.  

    Any opinions or experiences with property next to this type of feature?

    Thanks,
    Bill
                                              

    

    Do large water trucks pull up to the tower at all hours of the morning?

    
    Just tell people its your well...    Its a 50/50 shot.  Some would
    say, "oh whats that!"  and other may say, "no problem."  IMHO, if it
    were me and get greens were covering it.  I wouldnt mind.
    
    JD

	We are building an insulated 8' x 12' storage shed to house the water
	tanks for a 5 home common well.  The shed will be used for a 
	water filtration system also!  We will have an electric heater
	to ensure the equipment/pipes do not freeze.

	The supply and return lines from the well pump were just trenched
	at 4 feet below ground, and run using 2" diameter schedule 80 pvc.

	The pipes come up above ground, about 1 foot inside of the corner
	where the shed will be built.  We are about to have a concrete
	slab poured, 5 inches thick, on an 8" stone bed, using 1/2" metal 
	rebar and other metal reinforcement.
	
	My concerns are how we can be protected from freezing pipes!

	1) Should we have used a pvc or metal sleeve around both pvc lines 
	   that extended from 4 feet down to above ground?  This would have 
	   acted as a "conduit" carrying heat from the shed downward.

	2) Should we have a concrete perimeter footing that extends at 
	   least 42" underground along the corner area to prevent freezing

	Without one of these steps, what's to keep the pipes from freezing???
	Thanks for any suggestions.   Paul Gallo

I'd wrap the pipes with some sort of heat tape. I don't believe (but I
could be wrong) that pipes exiting the slab a foot from the outside
wall of the foundation are going to be sufficiently protected. At least
not in the Northeast. Little heat is going to travel downwards from
the slab, so I'd think that a foot or so below and one foot inside
the foundation, you're going to have frost.

-Jack

On second thought, what if you brought the pipes up through a "sump"?
If it was open to the interior of the shed, and deep enough to go
below the frostline, you could mount a fan to circulate warm air
down into the sump.

Even with the heat tape, I'd hate to see the pipe surrounded by
concrete where there was a chance of freezing, say, if the heat
tape failed one day (as they eventually do.)

-Jack

	-1.

	Good Idea! "Sump & Fan" is the way to go. 

	The way I see it, the reason that the ground freezes is the temp
	adjacent to the surface. So, the 'ground' in the building, being
	above 'freezing', would prevent the ground, within the building, 
	from freezing. However, at the edges of the building, the temp 
	will 'leak' in<from the side>, so care s/b taken along the 
	perimeter.

	Try This:

	    Dig a 1 1/2' square hole around the pipes. Line the hole w/
	2" styrofoam. The top of the 'foam' s/b 3" - 4" below finished
	floor. Create a 1' x 1' wood form. Form should extend from 'pipe'
	level, to finished floor<or above>. Center the form in the hole,
	about 3" from the 'foam'. Pour the concrete in the form 1st<between 
	the form & the styrofoam>, and finish the rest of the floor.

	Use the fan to direct the 'heat' down at the 'hole'.

	Also, a 'cheap'<LOUD> alarm might be added to warn ya when the
	temp, in the building, is below about 35 degs.

	hth,
	....jc

    
    Hummmm.  One large Ice cube!..:)
    
    If anything, I wouldnt cement in the pipe just for the
    fact when if ever you have to repair it or get to it.
    
    I'd maybe go with the foam and heat tape.  Make sure the building
    is very well insolated...  If i'm reading this right, you have multi
    user?   This should help keep the water moving on thoes cold days...
    
    Their is a 2" poly pipe running 150' to the center of a freestall
    barn.  The watering bowl has a heater in it.  5yrs an no problems yet.
    
    JD

    Heat tape is a bad idea -- you've already got a heater in the shed.
    As others have said, simply dig a hole down several feet so that the
    pipe is at the shed's air temperature all the way down to a point 
    down near or below the frost line.  You can make the hole neat by
    using a 4" drain pipe.  That also provides a simple way to keep the
    concrete from filling the hole when you pour the slab.  The exact
    depth isn't really cricical, since the heater heats the ground, too.
    
    If you want to save energy for that electric heater, you can put 
    insulation into the ground around the perimeter of the shed, or 
    under the slab.  Putting it under the slab is easier -- though 
    that would mean you have to insulate around the hole as well.
    Putting it around the perimeter is usually cheaper, since it only
    has to go down 2' to be as effective as if it's under the entire floor.
    But whatever you do, make sure that there's a "termite gap" between
    buried foam insulation and any wood.  
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

>    <<< Note 5388.0 by DEBUG::GALLO "Fast/Cheap/Good... limit 2 please!" >>>
>                       -< Prevent freezing water lines? >-
>
>	We are building an insulated 8' x 12' storage shed to house the water
>	tanks for a 5 home common well.  The shed will be used for a 
>	water filtration system also!  We will have an electric heater
>	to ensure the equipment/pipes do not freeze.
>


Just curious;  don't you need state permits and yearly inspections to have
               a well shared by multiple dwellings (or is is only if you're
               $elling the water......) ?

    
    
      Hi,
    
     Is there any recommendations for increasing the water pressure in my
    house without spending big $$$?   We have a Well, so no town water is 
    involved.
    
    Thanks,
    
    -Dean

There should be an adjustable pressure switch somewhere, probably on
the pump if it's not a "down in the hole" pump.

Also check to see if your pressure tank is waterlogged (pump cycles often
with a rapid pressure fluctuation)

-Mike

    
      Thanks Mike.
    
      I'll give a check tonight.
    
    
    -Dean

    
    If there is a leak between the water mains in the street and the meter
    in the home who's responsibility is it to fix - The City or the
    Homeowner?

    I think it depends on where you live.  I know that in some citys, if
    the problem is outside your lot line, it's a city problem.  If it's
    inside the lot line, it's a homeowner problem.  

    I have just found out that the city takes responsibility between the
    main and the shut-off valve. Between the shut-off valve and the
    residence it's the home owners responsibility.
    
    The shut-off valve is one-third the way into my driveway - dead center.
    AND...the City has just informed me that it's on their side of the
    shut-off valve - by a whisker!
    
    So next Wednesday the City will dig up my driveway as much as they have
    to and replace the shut-off valve.  Then, of course, they have to repair
    and patch my driveway etc. But it won't cost me a thing. It would have
    cost me a minimum of $600 just to dig the hole if it was on my side of
    the shut-off valve.

    All things considered - you lucked out!! It's nice to hear a story go
    this way once in a while. While I wouldn't wish a below-ground leak on
    anybody, at least they're picking up the repair.
    
    Good luck.

    ...but watch how they repave the driveway. Will they warrant the
    driveway repair? For how many years?

    The house next door to mine on the downhill side sat vacant for about
    18 months.  I am very pleased that a nice family has now moved in
    there, renting with an option to buy, since most of the tenants there
    did not stay long and didn't take very good care of the place, so that
    the house is now in pretty sad shape.  The new lady told me that she
    was planning on buying the house if getting it back into shape didn't
    end up being too expensive, which I think would be terrific.  The house
    was built in 1972, same as my house.  One of the things that is a real
    problem there is that her water pressure is VERY low.  Since that house
    is about ten feet lower than my house, and my water pressure is usable
    although higher would be better, I think, as does the new occupant,
    that the pipes over there are full of sediment from the long time the
    house sat empty.  Both houses have galvanized steel pipes.  She also
    mentioned that her water has a lot of rust in it, which mine doesn't. 
    Is there any relatively simple and cheap way to flush out the pipes?
    All of the neighbors are helping out getting that house back in shape,
    because we are very pleased to see it occupied again, but any solution
    that costs big bucks is not going to be real feasible.  I'd hate to see
    that place vacant again; it was turning into a real eyesore.  I suppose
    we can start by flushing the water heater tank, but she says that the
    cold water has very low pressure too, so I'm afraid that all of the
    pipes are full of crud.  Will it work its way through the system now
    that people are using the ater again?  or is a major plumbing bill in
    the future? - the landlord doesn't seem to be very interested in the
    house anymore; during the whole time it was vacant, he showed up and
    mowed the grass twice, and didn't do any other maintenance of any sort
    that was noticeable.
    
    /Charlotte
                        

    Do you have a pressure regulator on the water supply?  If you do, then
    it is probably near the meter.  It's a somewhat cone shaped device with
    (ususally) a screw on top.  I had to have mine replaced about a 18
    month ago because it failed.  The person who replaced it, from the
    local water district, stated that they will fail over time and there
    are two failure modes.  Mode one were it fails open and the pressure 
    inside the house goes way up.  This is rare.  And mode two where it
    fails closed and the pressure inside the hose drops to about 20 pounds. 
    This is the common failure mode.  In our case it failed closed and a
    new regulator fixed the problem.  FYI, they set the new regulator to 55
    PSI. 
    
    Ken

    I don't have a pressure regulator, so I doubt the house next door has
    one since they were built at the same time.  Our water pressure is
    pretty low at the best of times - the hill I live almost at the top of
    is the highest point in town.  On the very top of the hill, behind the
    house two doors uphill from me, is the town's water pressure tank -
    they pump a few feet of water up there to give us what water pressure
    we have.  The really low pressure problem seems to be unqieu to the
    house next door.
    
    /Charlotte

Just how deep must a waterline be in order to avoid freezing? I live in
Pennsylvania. Is there a source for this information (other than local codes)? I
understand that local code enforcement agencies may have additional requirements.

Thanks.

The rule of thumb I've always used in Upstate NY and New Hampshire is
4 feet. While you could potentially get away with less than that in
Pennsylvania (depending upon where - it wouldn't be the same in
Philadelphia as in Erie, necessarily), why take chances?