Conference 7.286::home_work

    If I was building another one (I already built one) I would do it
    the same way as before.
    
    I went to a local park one day and noticed that they had brand new
    picnic tables. Very sturdy and also a very nice style. Sooooo, I
    went back with a ruler and some paper, wrote down the dimensions
    (I got some funny stares), and built the table. 
    
    I used treated wood. The table is kind of heavy but I imagine it
    will last for years. Most of the wood is 2"x6" wood. Some of the
    supports are 3x3 (I think).
    
    jim

    
    While they were building all around me (I'm in a new development)
    they thru away a lot of 3-4 foot scraps, some even longer.  Out
    of this scrap I built my workbench and a large and small picnic
    table and bench.  What I did was decide how big I wanted it, bought
    a radial arm saw and built it.  Every angle came out perfect.  
    It's an octoganal table, and fits perfectly.
    
    so the morale of the story, do .1 and/or design it on paper and
    then put it into wood.  Make it sturdy, use all one type of board
    and you shouldn't have a lot of waste.  mine was all 2x6's
    
    						.dave.

    Be sure the legs extend out under the seats, so when 3 people all
    sit down on the same side at the same time, the table doesn't tip
    over...words of wisdom from somebody who got drenched with iced
    tea last summer....
    
    Steve

    	Now here's a reply to my own note.  I once put a table top onto
    an old tree stump in my backyard.  I then made a triangular brace
    mounted onto the side of the trunk and put a sorrounding bench.
    The whole thing was above the ground the height of a lawnmower.
    It worked out great but I now have no available tree stumps.  I
    would like to use the same style and possibly incorporate a rear
    axle/bearing to make it rotate.  Any one ever see a plan or table
    like this?  If so please give me some feedback!
    						Thanks,
    						Jorge'

    If you want a picnic table that really takes some punishment, I
    don't think you can beat the design used by the National Park Service.
    It's a one piece table (the ones with separate benches have tippy
    benches) supported near each end by a frame shaped like the letter
    "A" with a truncated top(which supports the table) and the crosspiece
    extended on both sides to support the benches.  My father built
    one like this out of redwood two by fours 20 years ago and its still
    in good shape even though it stays outside all year.  I think he
    got the plans for it from Popular Mechanics.  He used stove bolts
    to fasten it together.  I would suggest however that you use wider
    boards for the top and benches.  The two by fours left more cracks
    where the surface isn't even and things tend to tip when placed
    on the cracks.
    
    Mary

    Hi Jorge ...
    
    I built a picnic table a few years back, and am very happy with
    it.  It is much like .-1, but the benches are attached.  Basiscally,
    its a double A frame, with the cross member being the support for
    the seats.
    
    Stop by and take a look at it, its very simple to construct.

I wouldn't build a table (that I'm going to eat off of) out of pressure treated
wood.  That's just too close contact for me.  If you have somewhere to put it 
winters, plain lumber ought to be alright for quite a long time, but if it's 
going to be outside all year, bite the bullet and pay for the good wood.

Paul

  I picked up an old wire spool that I use for a picnic table.
  It's about 4' in diameter and the hole in the middle works great
  for putting a sun umbrella into.
  
  You can find them around some of the DEC facilities for free.
  Ask the someone in the maintenance dept. if they have some.
  
  /tb/
  

    
    Grossman's has a plan booklet for the kind of table mentioned in
    .5 and .6. I would use redwood, and bolts instead of the nails they
    specify, but the cuttings they give are right on the money.

    
    
    Grosmans plans
    good grade lumber
    nuts and bolts --NOT--nails
    good grade stain 
    
    all adds up to a decent table that will take weather and kids climbing
    on it and family picnics for years with only a tightening and stain
    touch up every couple of years.
    
    
    
    

I am building a picnic table using pressure treated wood.  Since
it'll be bulky and heavy, I want it to be easily taken apart.
For most places I'll use nuts and bolts with washer as fastener.
Near the benches I don't want the bolts to stick out to scratch
my legs, so I want to use long wood screws.

Simple questions:
	Will wood screws on pressure treated lumber that is permanently
exposed to the elements hold?  How do I prevent them from rusting
bad enough that I can't unscrew?  I don't want to paint over them.

Thanks in advance
/tom

	Tom-

	     For ease of assembly/disassembly I would recommend using
	T-nuts.  If you're not familiar with them they're kind of like
	an insert with a fender washer and large teeth attached.

	Drill your hole for the bolt then on the T-nut side drill large
	enough for the threaded portion.  Insert the T-nut, thread the
	bolt, (you should still use a washer), tightening the bolt down
	will fully engage the teeth on the T-nut.  You can select your
	bolt length to be flush with the end of the T-nut or just slightly
	inside.

	

    	I used galvinized screws to put up the railing on my deck and
    they seem to hold real tite. It's only been up for a month so I
    don't know how long the last, but they should hold up as well as
    the galvinized nails I used on the decking.
    	I used 2 kinds of screws both of which I bought at SPAGS. I
    can't remember the brand names off hand but they look like sheet
    rock screws except galivinized. One brand were mechanically galvinized
    and the others, I think, were electronically galvinized.
    	The only problem with wood screws is that after repeated removal
    and insertion the wood will be chewed up enough as to not hold
    the threads of the screw.
    	A better option might be, to use carriage bolts which are bolts with
    rounded heads.               
    
    			...Dave
    

    Countersink the nut end of the bolts to prevent catching yourself
    on them.
    
    Phil

    
    	I built my deck and picnic table using 3" galvanized wood screws
    using a variable speed drill to put them in. I also drilled and
    dowled the deck screws. If you do use dowls make sure you put a
    drop of wood glue on or they will come out.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    I'd second the suggestions of either T-nuts, or counterboring on
    the nut/washer side.  With T-nuts you'll have to use a hex head
    bolt; if you counterbore you can use carriage bolts and tighten
    the nuts in the counterbore with a socket wrench so it will be
    smooth on both sides.
    How much "apart" do you want to be able to take the table?  If the
    places you are concerned about you don't plan to take apart again
    anyway, I'd say your idea of woodscrews is fine too.

    
    
    Am I crazy, or did I read somewhere that making a picnic table
    out of PT wood is (chemically) VERY BAD idea?  The more I think
    about it, the better I recollect an article in Family Handyman...

    Donna...
        

        PT wood use, specifically in picnic tables, was discussed in
    note 83 of this conference.  It discusses using PT wood, sealing
    or staining PT wood, and alternatives for using other types of wood.
    
        - Richard

    I recommend using brass screws rather than galvinized which may
    rust over time.
    
    One other thought, if you want to spend the money, use solid redwood
    to make your table top and benches. Redwood resists rot and ages
    very nicely. 
    
    Good luck.
    
    Lou

    
    
    	I did something that I thought was very simple and thought I
    would let everyone know. My old picnic table was due for replacement
    so I went shopping. I was surprised to see how much they cost and
    I did not have any plans handy and no ambition to design one. Then
    I came up with an idea that worked out very easy. I took the old
    picnic table apart piece by piece and traced it on a new board.
    I didn't even have to think about what I was doing !
    
    	-Steve-
    

    
    that's my kind of repair, NO THINKING!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Shane
    

    	Now that I've got a deck (no railings yet though) I need a picnic
    table.  I went to Grossmans to pick up the plans mentioned in .9
    and stumbled an interesting situation.  The picnic table kits that
    Grossmans sells (precut wood, you screw it together) are cheaper
    that I can buy the lumber for.  
    	The table will be outside all year long, and there is *no* way
    that I'm eating off of PT wood.  I'd like to construct the table
    out of #2 redwood or ceder.  My rough estimate of the amount of
    wood I need for the table is:
    
    	5 6' 2x6 for the table, 4 for the benches=54' of 2x6
    	legs for benches and tables, cross supports=40' of 2x4
    
    The best price I've found for #2 redwood is from Dean and Reader
    in Stoughton:
    						$1.85/ln ft for 2x6
    						$0.80/ln ft for 2x4
    						------------------
    						$133

                 
    The Grossman kits sell for $120 in redwood, $140 in red cedar
    Have I made a mistake with my numbers?
    	Does anyone have experience with the Grossman kits?  I've only
    seen the demos and they looked pretty good.  Does anyone know a
    cheaper place to buy #2 redwood in the 495 area?             
    	
                                          =Ralph=

      I don't doubt that the kit is cheaper than buying the wood itself.
    I know someone who recently bought a kit in redwood for something
    like $40 on sale at a local department store.  I just bought red oak 
    hardwood flooring when I was on vacation in N.C. and paid $1.39/board 
    foot. The price of oak there is $3.00/board foot.  I don't understand
    why these variations are there when in the case of a picnic table
    kit, everything is pre-drilled and pre-cut as well as in the case
    of hardwood flooring where the lumber is planed and tongue-and-grooved
    on all four sides.  Anyone have a rational explanation?
    
    -Jim
    

    It's usually because either (1) the "redwood" is not redwood, but
    elcheapo wood stained red, or (2) it is redwood, but it's grade
    D, ninth quality, etc.
    
    Put the $40 kit outdoors in the weather for a year or two.  Then
    come back and write a reply about how the "redwood" is holding up.
    
    No free lunch.  In lumber or otherwise.
    

>        I don't understand
>    why these variations are there when in the case of a picnic table
>    kit, everything is pre-drilled and pre-cut as well as in the case
>    of hardwood flooring where the lumber is planed and tongue-and-grooved
>    on all four sides.  Anyone have a rational explanation?

    I can take a guess.  I think that the price of wood in quantity
    is much lower than you think.  I bet a company that sells T&G hardwood
    flooring, like Bruce, gets oak for under 50�/bd ft, or maybe much
    less than that.  Companies like that, as well as companies that
    make department store picnic table kits, probably have their own
    mill.  
    
    What do you think it would cost you to make a 4' square oak pallet?
    Pallet companies probably sell them for a tenth of what you could
    build one for.
    
    

re Note 82.11 by PALMER::PALMER:

>     	The table will be outside all year long, and there is *no* way
>     that I'm eating off of PT wood.  I'd like to construct the table

We use paper plates.

Seriously, have you considered making the legs and framing out of PT (they get
the ground contact) and the table and bench surfaces out of a durable but
natural wood?

Bob

    
    
      Here in MR01 the pinic tables DEC has for the employees are PT
    lumber. I think its probably safer than eating in the building at
    TOBINS.
    
    
    BAL

    I like your idea on redwood, but brass screws is the worst possible
    material because it is soft, try to take them out and see how bad
    the head gets striped. brass is a naturally soft combination of
    metals and wont do the job on heavy yard furniture or any
    other heavy projects.
    ps. the brass screws you see in your door hinges are brass coated for
    astetic reasons only...........***user carridge bolts w/washer and nut.
    

    What about square drive ??
    
    I bought a box of these for some screen frames (the frame to hold
    the screens not the frame of the screen itself) and had no problem
    at all with stripping or any slipping at all.
    
    I used a Milwaukee power screw driver ( the red folding cylinder
    type) to drive them.  I had noticed some slipping using this with
    drywall screws if one were not careful.
    
    BTW I got these at Trend-lines (Woodworker's Warehouse) in Lamplighter
    square (across from Pheasant Lane mall) in Nashua.

I almost have my picnic table and chairs finished after hours of cutting,
sanding, glueing, clamping, ....  I just have a question on the legs and  cross
bracing for my picnic table.  Not wanting something "simple and
straightforward", I'm thinking of using the plan below.  The view is from the
top of the picnic table with the table top removed.  The whole bracing section
will be about 12-14 inches up from the floor.  Will this idea work or am I
asking for trouble?  Suggestions welcome.

Thanks,
Phil

      #           #         # - legs (2x4)
      \\         //         @ - support (2x4)        
       \\       //          * - hole for table umbrella        
        \\     //     v and ^ - hinges
         \\   //
          \\v//           I plan to attach the legs to the underside of the 
          | @ |           table with "L" brackets.  I want to connect the two 
          |   |           sides of the "Y" part of the bracing with a hinge. 
          |   |           I'll hook the "Y" structure onto the legs with some-
          | * |           thing like a joist support hanger.  I thought about 
          |   | 2x6       just laying the 2x6 "bridge" on top of the ends of
          |   |           each "Y" section but decided it might be too heavy.
          | @ |           So, I'll run a support from the underside of the 
          //^\\           table top down to the top of the 2x6 and attach with
         //   \\          an "L" bracket.  Then, I'll hook the ends of the "Y"
        //     \\  2x4    to the underside of the 2x6 one way or another
       //       \\        (probably another "L" bracket).
      //         \\       (NB. The angle formed by the sides of the "Y" where
      #           #       they join at the 2x6 won't be nearly as sharp as
                          depicted.)

RE: .18

	I'm having trouble trying to picture what this will look like from
your drawing so I drew up some other views of what I think your describing.


	====================  Table top
	 ||              ||
	 ||              ||
	 ||              || Legs 
	 ||              ||

	View from chair



	========== Table top
	    /\
	   /  \
	  /    \
	 /      \

	View from side



	If this is what you are thinking of then you will have a lot of strain
on the hinges and L brackets.

	I would suggest for a sturdier table to add a brace (marked with *)

	====================  Table top
	 ||  *        *  ||
	 || *          * ||
	 ||*            *|| Legs 
	 ||              ||

	View from chair

	========== Table top
	    /\
	   /  \
	  /****\
	 /      \

	View from side


	It would relieve a lot of the strain off the brackets.

						Bill

    
    
    Has anybody ever come across plans for a picnic table which would go
    "around" a tree ? Or perhaps where I may find pland for a round
    (ocatgon), table which can be modified ?
    
    Thanx /BD        
              

    Osmose Pressure Treated Wood Products have phamplets and brochures for
    projects.  I have seen one for an octagon deck.  I think I saw one for
    an octagon table but it has been about 2 years since I looked for one.  
    
    You might check with your local home center for these type of plans.

    	I'm looking for a picnic table that has the round, tubular steel
    frame.  I've seen one at Builder's Square but it was kind of flimsy.  The 
    one that Somerville Lumber has is a square frame rather than round.
    Anyone know of otherplaces that I can check?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George