Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    What is a Sill?  (i have several notions)
    	
    						.dave.

                The Sill is the piece of wood that sits on top of the 
        foundation wall, upon which the whole house sits. Now you see 
        the problem with replacing it (much like changing a tire on a 
        car, except it is not designed to done).
                
                /s/     Bob

A sill is a beam or a plate that sits on top of the foundation.  The floor
joists sit on top of the sill.  Last time I checked, the professionals charged
between $70 and $100 per foot to replace sills.

One of the very first jobs we tackled in our house was the replacement
of two 8x8 sill beams that had been pretty much eaten by carpenter ants.
We have a tiny (24'x26' "stick-frame") 1-story cottage, so it wasn't
terribly difficult to jack up the house, remove the old sills and insert
the new ones.  Even so, I don't think I'd try that again and I would
*certainly* not try it on a 2-story house.  Getting something that heavy
even an eighth of an inch into the air is always dangerous and if something
goes wrong, I doubt that your insurance agent would be very sympathetic.  

Having said that, I'll also say that I helped a neighbor replace some sills
in his 250-year-old, single-story post-and-beam cape.  I felt a lot more
comfortable doing that job because post-and-beam structures are so much
stronger (and also because it was *his* house).  So, if you have
a single-story post-and-beam and if there will be some experienced
construction workers helping out and if there's no chance you can afford
to have a pro do it, then maybe you should tackle the job yourself.  Give
me a call if you want to hear some hints and tips.

JP

P.S., How's your heart?  Houses makes *alarming* sounds when you jack them
      off the foundation.  And when you gently lower them, too.

    I, my son, and a carpenter, replaced several sections of sill in
    a 2-story house about 30 years old (ants and fungus did them in).
    It was educational, and cheap because my son and I did the grunt
    work.  Read a lot, work slowly and carefully, have a pro to provide
    advise, and you can do it too.  
    	There are several days of preparation needed before you begin,
    then you can replace 8 or 12 feet of sill in a (long) day.  And
    of course, you have to put sheathing and siding back on after the
    sills are replaced.
    	Sills are heavy; do not try this alone.  I recommend 1 adult
    for each 4 foot length of sill to be replaced at a time.
    

    The most important question is What kind of sill? for a 'stick built'
    house the sill is 2x6 or 2x8 stuff, usually 2 or more pieces laid
    up in some combination. This is relatively easy to fix, and doesnt
    really require lifting the house.
    
    If its Timber Frame- or Post and Beam- its another matter- the sill
    can be from 6x6 to 12x12 and can have any number of mortises,
    dovetails, and other fancy joinery. The problem then becomes whether
    you are interested in historic accuracy or simply sound sills.
    
    I am a confirmed wood nut, willing to take on just about any house
    repair (I designed and built a 2 story 24'x36' post and beam house,
    in a 2 week vacation once) but would not reccomend a sill repair
    to someone without a fair bit of woodwork experience. The previous
    advice about doing the grunt work for someone that knows what to
    do may be the best advice.
    
    

    
    I second that, in a few years I'd like to build my next home.
    Starting to think about it now...
    
    					.dave.

    Getting back to the sill problem. I have a bit of dry rot or fungus
    (I'm not sure what the difference is) on one of the sills in my
    house. The sill is 6x6. I don't know if I need to do anything to
    it.
    
    Any ideas?
    
    jim

    
    Bob, I would appreciate the xerox copies. My mail stop is (moo).
    
    Thanks for your help !
    
    pat.
    

Re: Sill replacement
    Country Journal, June 1985, "New Life for Old Barns".
	See also , in your lilbrary, under Architecture, restoring old
    builkdings, in the card file, to get more references, on how to 
    replace the sills in a an old barn (it's part of an article
    on rebuilding an old barn. "..." replacing a house sill. 
    I have a very old house,
    and I checked the sills, and thought they needed to be replaced.
    (They're 8 x 12 "), two story POst-and-beam, with interconnected
    sheds and barns. The advice given to  me by an experienced Old House
    Carpenter (who is now restoring a 1760 vintage houise), was this:
    If the house isn't settling or otherwise in danger of collapsing,
    don't touch the sills.
    
    In my case, not only are they long, large, and old; but the housewiring
    was routed through the sills, as well as the forced hot water pipes,
    and some other plumbing. To replace these sills, it will be one
    royal pain !
    
    Bob
    

    
    Someday I'm gonna get the money and the time together to finish
    off the downstairs (of my split).  I am still gathering tidbits
    of information though, and have come up with another question(s).
    
    Where the outside plywood meets the base (sill?) on top of the
    foundation, there is a small gap between the these two pieces. Between
    this gap all kinds of creatures have found there way during the past
    few months.  Ants, slugs, flys, and at least 345.3 different variations
    of that theme.  Now, what do I use to fill this gap?  I have heard
    several suggestions; use wood, then use a sealant around that; use
    just the sealant; use roofing tar; use large quantities of bug spray.
    
    Anybody know how it should be done to do it right?
    
    						.dave.

    If the crack is 1/4" or less I'd just use silicone calking.  If
    it's over 1/4" I'd use some of that foam-in-a-can stuff.  
    
    Steve

    Before you seal it up, it might be a good idea to use "large quantities
    of bug spray" to kill all the crawlie things that have decided to
    make your home their home.
    
    -db

    The foam stuff retails for about $7/can, but is regularly on sale
    for roughly half that. It'll last a long time (forever?) until you
    start using it, so buy it when you can get it cheap. Also, it is
    sticky as anything (well, as anything that's incredibly sticky)
    - so heed the warnings about gloves, etc. Have somewhere for the
    excess to drool out on, so it doesn't end up sticking onto whatever
    happens to be underneath the nozzle when you stop! Identify multiple
    places that need "foaming", cuz despite the instructions about using
    it up within a month, I've never had much success after leaving
    the partially used can for more than a week.
    
    Finally, the foam deteriorates rapidly in sunlight. Not so important
    for the application that was mentioned in the first response, but
    if you use this outdoors, make sure it's covered with something
    - paint for example.
    
    Love that goo,
    
    -Scott
    

    
    I have heard of the foam spray stuff before.  How much area will
    one can typically cover?  I am spraying all along the foundation
    and will need to cover about 80 running feet. 
                                                          
    Does anybody have a name for this foam_in_a_can stuff?  I;ll start
    looking/buying this week...
    
    						.dave.
    
    ps - already sprayed diazinon (sp) inside and out a couple of times
    - I keep finding dead little crawly things everywhere...  My wife
    is starting to get disgusted...
    

    Spag's has the foam goop for $3.77/can, last I knew.  Good
    suggestion about finding a bunch of things to foam and doing
    them all at once - I've never had much luck getting the can
    to last more than one day! 
    
    Steve

    Oh yes - amount it will cover. The can says "as much as up to 15
    tubes of calking" or something like that.  It depends.  I find that
    it is very hard to manage, so I end up wasting a lot.  If you have
    a good uniform gap that is easy to get to, it should go quite a
    long way.  I typically end up standing on my head trying to get
    at an inaccessible spot behind the boiler or something, so I don't
    do so well.  Even under the best of conditions though it's pretty
    messy to handle.
    
    Steve

    The Foam Stuff does NOT last forever in the can.  Most of them have
    a definite shelf life of about two or so years.  I found a can last
    year that was 3 1/2 years old and, just for kicks, tried to use
    it.  It was completely defunct.  Most of them even have a date stamp
    on them giving the expiration date.

>    Does anybody have a name for this foam_in_a_can stuff? 
                                                          
	"Great Stuff" and "Touch 'n Foam" are two that I've used.

     FWIW

	The Great Stuff can says it contains 148 feet of 1/2"
	round bead.

	Touch 'n Foam claims to contain 2 1/2 gallons of sealant,
	with "more sealing power than 25 tubes of caulk."

    
    GROSSMANS:  POLYCEL Insulating Sealant - on sale for 3.49.
    On the first can you get a 2.50 rebate for a price of 99 cents.
    
    still, the 3.49 isn't too bad.
    
    						.dave.

     Being new to homeownership, I have a dumb question to ask all you
    DIY's out there...Should there be a gap between the masonite clapboards
    and the wood that sits on top of the foundation, for ventilation ???
    The house is only six years old, the gap is there because the builder
    just didn't put any nails at the bottom of the clapboards and they
    bow outwards. Should I put some nails in at the very bottom or what ?
    
                     !         !ll                    
                     !         !ll <--- clapboard
          (inside)   !_________!ll
         (basement)  l_________!ll
                     l_________!Ll
                     IXXXXXXXXI `_______ gap
                     IXXXXXXXXI
                     IXXXXXXXXI <--- foundation
                                                                         
    AD<thanks>VANCE

 Re: .10  
 <                    !         !ll                    
 <                    !         !ll <--- clapboard
 <         (inside)   !_________!ll
 <        (basement)  l_________!ll
 <                    l_________!Ll
 <                    IXXXXXXXXI `_______ gap
 <                    IXXXXXXXXI
 <                    IXXXXXXXXI <--- foundation
                                                                         
 	There seems to be a minor problem with your drawing or my understanding 
	of masonite siding.  There should be a plywood sheathing under the 
	siding.  The sheathing usually extends below the sill plate to protect 
	it from rot.  The siding usually will extend below the plywood by 
	about the thickness of the plywood.  The bottom course should have a 
	1 inch firring strip made from masonite along the bottom, and face 
	nailed through the firring.  For added protection I would recommend
	that the bottom clapboard be primed on all sides.

	Brian  

     RE: .11
     
     Thanks for your reply. You're right about my drawing being flawed,
    the clapboard does go a couple inches below the sill and I'll check
    tonigh for the firring strip (I didn't notice one, the main thing
    that caught my eye is the way I could push on the lowest clapboard
    and make it move inward--definitely isn't nailed to a firring strip.

    I have an older house (circa 1901), which had a set of owners that
    did some unusual things.  One of these was to cut a hole through
    the sill of the house for the dryer vent.  They had the washer and
    dryer in the basement at one time.  My washer and dryer are located
    upstairs, and so this hole is no longer being used.  I can put
    insulation into the hole to minimize any heat loss, but should I
    be concerned about this possibly causing any further damage to the
    sill?
    
    BTW, I assume it is the sill the hole is in.  It appears to be the
    piece of wood which sits on the foundation.  If my terminology is
    incorrect, I apologize.
    
    Ed..
    

    You've got the correct terminology.  The hole shouldn't matter.
    You probably ought to put something over the outside, like a
    piece of sheetmetal (or, better yet, repair the siding), so water
    doesn't get in.  Then stuff in a wad of insulation.  If you
    do just put a piece of sheetmetal over the hole, tuck it up under
    the siding so water won't get down behind it.  

      I have a post&beam home; it has a sill that is approximately 6x8".
      When we build an enclosed breezway (connecting to a garage) I  cut
      through the sill to get an air duct into the breezway.  Doing this
      concerned me, but I reasoned as follows:  (1) the "sill" is  still
      tied  together  by  (a) 2x6 flooring that rest on top of it and by
      (b) the exterior sheathing that rests against it.  (2) even if  it
      wasn't  tied  together  it isn't likely to move with the weight of
      the house one it.  (3) there  is  no  significant  weight  bearing
      directly above the part I cut out. (i.e. I did _not_ cut out under
      any posts!)
      
      Your  house is undoubtedly different than mine, but I suspect that
      similar logic applies.  BTW, I plan to cut out  another,  probably
      larger (wider) section of sill on the other side of the house when
      we build our 'sun room' -- maybe next year (if DEC stock goes back
      up). 

I am building a post & beam barn.  I have a problem I'm hoping that someone can
recognize and suggest a cure/preventitive for.

I've cut the sill beams for the barn, and layed them out on the perimeter of the
foundation of the barn.  The beams are 6x8 white pine, and are on top of a 2x12
PT sub-sill.  I've just started fastening the sill beams down with anchor bolts
on one side.  The beams all have one coat of minwax natural stain, and have been
sitting outside for a couple of months.  Yesterday it rained (not the first
time)  This morning the beam that I had fastened down with the anchor bolts had
a grey to black discoloration, more pronounced around the bolts, put speading
over about 80% of the three visible sides.  This beam got a second coat of the
stain a couple days ago as I was fastening it down with the anchor bolts.

Has anyone ever seen anything like this?  What is this caused by?  The bolts are
your standard plated (probably nickel) machine bolts.  I don't know whether this
could be a chemical reaction or a fungus of some kind.  While the beams have
yellowed a bit in the past couple of months, none of the others have shown this
reaction.

Any help would be apprecaited.  If  there's a stain that will keep the beams
from yellowing to boot, even better.

Jim.

For the discoloration due to the metal fasteners, see note 3356.

The other discoloration may be the result of splashing from the ground around
the beam.  I know that my wood siding discolors noticably anywhere that water 
splashes back up on it. 

Paul

The discoloration is not just around the metal fasteners.  I expected a little
of that.  This covers the majority of the beam.  This is not caused by ground
splashes.  As I said, only the beam with bolts shows this discoloration, not all
of them.  If it was ground splashes I would expect it to show up on the other
sill beams as well.  Also the sill is in one corner 3 feet off the ground, and
shows as much discoloration there as anywhere.

Jim.

    
     What king of wood is the beams made out of?? 
    
    		Wayne

Was the beam lying against anything?  I know raw oak will acquire a blue color 
when it comes into contact with steel.  I can't think of any such symptoms I
have noticed with white pine.  You might want to mentally trace its history
since it was cut to try to remember with what it was in contact.

Stan

The beams have not been lying on anything extcept pine 2x4s for three months. 
The discoloration appeared overnight on only the beam with bolts in it.

Jim.

    Hmmm, The wood can get a blue tinge because of a mold in the wood. My
    beams showed some of this untill I sprayed them with bleach.  28
    gallons of the stuff. It was also on my 3/4 tongue and groove pine
    walls. 		
    
    		Wayne

The sill of my basement window is quite rotted.  After digging out the rotted 
portion, I've concluded that there isn't quite enough left for a pre-molded 
sill extension to nail to.  So, since the sill is about two or three inches 
from the ground (any splashing from rain will always be a threat to wood) I'm 
thinking about pouring a small cement sill.  I would use lag bolts to screw 
into whats left of the old sill as well as the stucco/concrete part of the
wall just underneath the sill.  The lag bolts would stick out into the poured
cement (sand mix) and add strength and a bond between the new cement and the 
wood, stucco/concrete combination.  Is this a good idea? If so, how would I 
make sure I have a good seal between the new cement and whats left of the old
sill?  I've thought of just caulking the seam.  Should I prepare the 
old stucco/cement surface? If so, how?  Lastly, will the new cement and wood
combination work well together?

Jerry

    Why not just make a sill out of pressure treated lumber? That is what I
    did in a similar situation and it seems to have worked ok over the last
    10 years or so.

    The reason why I am shy of making a whole new sill is because it will
    be much more work.  First I'd have to completely tear out the old sill. 
    The old sill is nailed in a variety of ways all of which are impossible
    to just pull out.  Also, I would run the risk of damaging the small
    wires that are part of our alarm system (and attached to the sill on
    the inside).  This sill is a non standard thickness and shape,
    therefore I'd have to stop at a specialty place and buy it (and it most
    likely won't be treated.
    In a short amount of time I could make a small form, mix
    a batch of cement in a bucket and pour it.